What's the most demented/messed up module in 3.X?

[Big Fau]

See title.

I remember seeing an old thread about this same subject, but that's subject to necromancy and I don't feel like Googling it.

[Sith_Happens]

The Ettin's Riddle, a.k.a. Heironeous is Either Stupid, Evil, or Both.

The module's story revolves around a cleric of Heironeous who at some point in the past gets (somehow) permanently polymorphed into an ettin against his will. Not long after which his new extra head develops a mind of its own, that of a typical Chaotic Evil ettin, which proceeds to hijack the body on a regular basis to murder people.

Now, normally the cleric could just cast Dispel Magic until it works and be done with the whole mess... But Heironeous gives him a riddle and won't grant that spell until he solves it. Why? Because the cleric was too merciless to his foes as a human and this is Heironeous's way of teaching him a valuable lesson.

So, to summarize here: Heironeous, a supposedly Lawful Good deity and the go-to patron of paladins, thinks the best way to teach one of his followes mercy is by forcing him to watch his own body commit senseless murders that he could otherwise prevent.
The bad writing, it buuuuuuuuuurnsssss!

[Big Fau]

The Ettin's Riddle, a.k.a. Heironeous is Either Stupid, Evil, or Both.

The module's story revolves around a cleric of Heironeous who at some point in the past gets (somehow) permanently polymorphed into an ettin against his will. Not long after which his new extra head develops a mind of its own, that of a typical Chaotic Evil ettin, which proceeds to hijack the body on a regular basis to murder people.

Now, normally the cleric could just cast Dispel Magic until it works and be done with the whole mess... But Heironeous gives him a riddle and won't grant that spell until he solves it. Why? Because the cleric was too merciless to his foes as a human and this is Heironeous's way of teaching him a valuable lesson.

So, to summarize here: Heironeous, a supposedly Lawful Good deity and the go-to patron of paladins, thinks the best way to teach one of his followes mercy is by forcing him to watch his own body commit senseless murders that he could otherwise prevent.
The bad writing, it buuuuuuuuuurnsssss!

Sounds like the authors were channeling their inner Greek Mythology buffs...

[123456789blaaa]

The Ettin's Riddle, a.k.a. Heironeous is Either Stupid, Evil, or Both.

The module's story revolves around a cleric of Heironeous who at some point in the past gets (somehow) permanently polymorphed into an ettin against his will. Not long after which his new extra head develops a mind of its own, that of a typical Chaotic Evil ettin, which proceeds to hijack the body on a regular basis to murder people.

Now, normally the cleric could just cast Dispel Magic until it works and be done with the whole mess... But Heironeous gives him a riddle and won't grant that spell until he solves it. Why? Because the cleric was too merciless to his foes as a human and this is Heironeous's way of teaching him a valuable lesson.

So, to summarize here: Heironeous, a supposedly Lawful Good deity and the go-to patron of paladins, thinks the best way to teach one of his followes mercy is by forcing him to watch his own body commit senseless murders that he could otherwise prevent.
The bad writing, it buuuuuuuuuurnsssss!

...that is amazing. I wish true-to-the-character writings about Heironeous were like this stuff. Normal Heironeous is lame.

As for the OP...it's not really a module but it is an adventure. To recharge your uses of the Shrine of Acerak Planar Touchstone, you need to make out with the statue of him on Cocytus :smallyuk: :smallconfused:.

[Dairuga]

The Ettin's Riddle, a.k.a. Heironeous is Either Stupid, Evil, or Both.

The module's story revolves around a cleric of Heironeous who at some point in the past gets (somehow) permanently polymorphed into an ettin against his will. Not long after which his new extra head develops a mind of its own, that of a typical Chaotic Evil ettin, which proceeds to hijack the body on a regular basis to murder people.

Now, normally the cleric could just cast Dispel Magic until it works and be done with the whole mess... But Heironeous gives him a riddle and won't grant that spell until he solves it. Why? Because the cleric was too merciless to his foes as a human and this is Heironeous's way of teaching him a valuable lesson.

So, to summarize here: Heironeous, a supposedly Lawful Good deity and the go-to patron of paladins, thinks the best way to teach one of his followes mercy is by forcing him to watch his own body commit senseless murders that he could otherwise prevent.
The bad writing, it buuuuuuuuuurnsssss!

Well, to be fair; The module -does- state that the guy in question abandoned Heironous, for Heironouses -brother-, hextor, in his time of need. And Heirneous didn't take that too well.

Two timing mortals needs to be punished.

Really, you think the guy would just drop the vengeful god and go worship Hextor full-time. Imagine the deal; Join the dark side, get Dispel magic granted, always.

[lsfreak]

Two timing mortals needs to be punished.

...by letting half of him be powerless to stop the murder of a bunch of innocent civilians.
Heirneous: Lawful Good, now with more Chaotic Evil.

[navar100]

The Ettin's Riddle, a.k.a. Heironeous is Either Stupid, Evil, or Both.

The module's story revolves around a cleric of Heironeous who at some point in the past gets (somehow) permanently polymorphed into an ettin against his will. Not long after which his new extra head develops a mind of its own, that of a typical Chaotic Evil ettin, which proceeds to hijack the body on a regular basis to murder people.

Now, normally the cleric could just cast Dispel Magic until it works and be done with the whole mess... But Heironeous gives him a riddle and won't grant that spell until he solves it. Why? Because the cleric was too merciless to his foes as a human and this is Heironeous's way of teaching him a valuable lesson.

So, to summarize here: Heironeous, a supposedly Lawful Good deity and the go-to patron of paladins, thinks the best way to teach one of his followes mercy is by forcing him to watch his own body commit senseless murders that he could otherwise prevent.
The bad writing, it buuuuuuuuuurnsssss!

Hey, I played that! I thought it was the DM's own game for a one-shot. It was annoying because we were 2nd level, and playing a cleric of Hieroneous myself, I couldn't just cast Dispel Magic either.

We figured out what was going on with the "good head" and "evil head" but nothing we tried could stop the evil head from waking up or even come close to a "cure". We ended up just having to fight it to death.

It was supposed to teach us a lesson that not everything needs to be fought, but 1) we did everything we could before it even came to combat yet nothing worked and 2) I didn't say anything at the time but I resented to having been taught a lesson. It was an unsatisfying experience.

[Spuddles]

Well, to be fair; The module -does- state that the guy in question abandoned Heironous, for Heironouses -brother-, hextor, in his time of need. And Heirneous didn't take that too well.

Two timing mortals needs to be punished.

Really, you think the guy would just drop the vengeful god and go worship Hextor full-time. Imagine the deal; Join the dark side, get Dispel magic granted, always.

Yeah, because killing innocents is totally the lawful good solution to that problem....


Hey, I played that! I thought it was the DM's own game for a one-shot. It was annoying because we were 2nd level, and playing a cleric of Hieroneous myself, I couldn't just cast Dispel Magic either.

We figured out what was going on with the "good head" and "evil head" but nothing we tried could stop the evil head from waking up or even come close to a "cure". We ended up just having to fight it to death.

It was supposed to teach us a lesson that not everything needs to be fought, but 1) we did everything we could before it even came to combat yet nothing worked and 2) I didn't say anything at the time but I resented to having been taught a lesson. It was an unsatisfying experience.

Just use non-lethal damage next time and imprison it.

[Coidzor]

Just use non-lethal damage next time and imprison it.

If the players can't figure out the riddle and they do that either the townsfolk they leave the ettin imprisoned with kill it or it kills more of them or they have to take an ettin with them and constantly beat it into submission. Not exactly satisfying alternatives.

[Spuddles]

If the players can't figure out the riddle and they do that either the townsfolk they leave the ettin imprisoned with kill it or it kills more of them or they have to take an ettin with them and constantly beat it into submission. Not exactly satisfying alternatives.

Eh, once the ettin is unconscious, you just hire a villager to beat it for a couple hours every day. Never wakes up. Then you put the word out for a higher level cleric.

Or just cut the bad head off.

Once you have the creature subdued, you have soo many options.

I dunno, I havent read the module, so maybe all options are DM fiated away.

[nyjastul69]

I know it's not 3.X, but it is d20 OGL, WLD.

[Ravens_cry]

I know it's not 3.X, but it is d20 OGL, WLD.
Please expand upon this point.

[Spuddles]

Gavinfoxxx has some pretty good insights into why WLD sucks:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14240088&postcount=3

and a more comprehensive thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212580

[Ravens_cry]

Ah, thank you. That clarifies things immensely.

[Zeb]

The Fright at Tristor

Everything about it was just bad, you almost want to forgive it given its early release but the starter adventures in the learn D&D box were way better.

[Namfuak]

The Ettin's Riddle, a.k.a. Heironeous is Either Stupid, Evil, or Both.

The module's story revolves around a cleric of Heironeous who at some point in the past gets (somehow) permanently polymorphed into an ettin against his will. Not long after which his new extra head develops a mind of its own, that of a typical Chaotic Evil ettin, which proceeds to hijack the body on a regular basis to murder people.

Now, normally the cleric could just cast Dispel Magic until it works and be done with the whole mess... But Heironeous gives him a riddle and won't grant that spell until he solves it. Why? Because the cleric was too merciless to his foes as a human and this is Heironeous's way of teaching him a valuable lesson.

So, to summarize here: Heironeous, a supposedly Lawful Good deity and the go-to patron of paladins, thinks the best way to teach one of his followes mercy is by forcing him to watch his own body commit senseless murders that he could otherwise prevent.
The bad writing, it buuuuuuuuuurnsssss!

What's the riddle?

[Ravens_cry]

What's the riddle?

What were the writers on at the time?:smallbiggrin:

[Jalor]

Gavinfoxxx has some pretty good insights into why WLD sucks:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14240088&postcount=3

and a more comprehensive thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212580

Yeah, wow, I wasn't familiar with WLD before and now I'm amazed people play it voluntarily.

[Keneth]

A lot of the Pathfinder adventure modules and paths have some pretty messed up things in them, starting right with the first adventure path (Rise of the Runelords) which features lots of torture, dismemberment, inbreeding, gruesome displays, etc.

I haven't played any of the 3.5 modules ever. We've always run custom campaigns there.

[Gemini476]

A lot of the Pathfinder adventure modules and paths have some pretty messed up things in them, starting right with the first adventure path (Rise of the Runelords) which features lots of torture, dismemberment, inbreeding, gruesome displays, etc.

I haven't played any of the 3.5 modules ever. We've always run custom campaigns there.

I just remembered the Pathfinder module that had a suggested alteration of putting a bunch of feral goblin children in a room. Everyone likes seeing Paladins get faced with lose/lose moral dilemmas, right?

[Devronq]

One of my favorites, although not necessarily horrible or badly written was adventures in dungeonland. It was a 2nd edition module that was based off of alice in wonderland and well it was just weird and well check it out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeonland

[herrhauptmann]

Something's Cooking in the Kitchen.
When the party has a bunch of casters that focus on fire effects.

Not messed up like Ettins Riddle, but enjoyable as a DM.

[Brookshw]

Yeah, wow, I wasn't familiar with WLD before and now I'm amazed people play it voluntarily.

Eh, it was kinda fun if you "forgot" about their house rule nonsense and refluffed some of it (and an easy way to wallpaper a room if you put the maps up).

I vaguely recall it had an ad in it for a follow up "world's largest city", does anyone know if they actually went through with it?

[Snowbluff]

...by letting half of him be powerless to stop the murder of a bunch of innocent civilians.
Heirneous: Lawful Good, now with more Chaotic Evil.

What's chaotic for forcing a cleric of Hextor suffer for his crimes?
If he didn't intervene directly on the behalf of mortals during the regular suffering in the world, does that make him evil?

[Spuddles]

What's chaotic for forcing a cleric of Hextor suffer for his crimes?
If he didn't intervene directly on the behalf of mortals during the regular suffering in the world, does that make him evil?

An NSA analyst's wife has cancer, and they can't afford medical bills. His superiors can't pay him any more money- he's just an analyst. In a moment of weakness, he steals files and sells them to the Chinese. He is caught, and as part of his punishment, the NSA forces the analyst to kill you Snowbluff.

How would you feel about that?

[awa]

if he was actually a cleric of hextor he would not be suffering because he would not care that he was running around killing innocents

[Ravens_cry]

if he was actually a cleric of hextor he would not be suffering because he would not care that he was running around killing innocents
Given that Hextor is a LAWFUL Evil god, I bet he would actually.
Evil doesn't automatically mean puppy punting, card carrying villainy. Evil can be much more insidious.

[awa]

fair point

[Gemini476]

An NSA analyst's wife has cancer, and they can't afford medical bills. His superiors can't pay him any more money- he's just an analyst. In a moment of weakness, he steals files and sells them to the Chinese. He is caught, and as part of his punishment, the NSA forces the analyst to kill you Snowbluff.

How would you feel about that?

TRICK QUESTION! Snowbluff is dead, he doesn't feel anything.
Barring afterlives, but let's not get into that here.

[Coidzor]

I just remembered the Pathfinder module that had a suggested alteration of putting a bunch of feral goblin children in a room. Everyone likes seeing Paladins get faced with lose/lose moral dilemmas, right?

Good times whenever that comes up. :smallamused: Paladin of Abadar uses sell them into slavery to the local viking expys.


What's chaotic for forcing a cleric of Hextor suffer for his crimes?
If he didn't intervene directly on the behalf of mortals during the regular suffering in the world, does that make him evil?

Are there two different versions of the module? Because that wasn't in the one I used. At worst he'd become like a Cuthbertite on the cusp between LG leaning LN and LN leaning LG as I recall.


Given that Hextor is a LAWFUL Evil god, I bet he would actually.
Evil doesn't automatically mean puppy punting, card carrying villainy. Evil can be much more insidious.

A Ettin's form is simply inefficient for proper domination, after all. A Cleric of Erythnul would take it as a boon though, I imagine.

[Snowbluff]

An NSA analyst's wife has cancer, and they can't afford medical bills. His superiors can't pay him any more money- he's just an analyst. In a moment of weakness, he steals files and sells them to the Chinese. He is caught, and as part of his punishment, the NSA forces the analyst to kill you Snowbluff.

How would you feel about that?
1) Your analogy blows to the point of being fallacious, and might be scraping the forum rules.
2) I would feel bad.
3) Your point? Are gods not one alignment for not perpetually enforcing that alignment? If this is the case, why are there any clerics, Spuddles? Gods are REQUIRED, under your interpretation, to smite and destroy any cleric of an opposing religion once they perform an opposing action. Hextor has to blow up all of those paladins, and Vecna's Dread Necromancers keep getting fried by Pelor.



Are there two different versions of the module? Because that wasn't in the one I used. At worst he'd become like a Cuthbertite on the cusp between LG leaning LN and LN leaning LG as I recall.

Oh, if that's the case, I would to hear more. Cases like that are significantly more complex, but deities can't be expected to do every little thing for everyone. There would not be an adventure if that was the case.

[Sith_Happens]

...by letting half of him be powerless to stop the murder of a bunch of innocent civilians.
Heirneous: Lawful Good, now with more Chaotic Evil.

That's basically the long and short of "what's wrong here."


What's the riddle?

"Two heads have we, but born with one.
We avenged, healed, and protected.
Our master was Invincible,
But punished we all who objected.
Heeded we the six-armed king,
And so by our god were rejected.
Thus, this is our fate:
One head, twice bisected."
"Kyrnyn, the man."
I don't get it either. And of course the module provides exactly zero hints. And solving the riddle is probably the only way most parties are going to be able to solve the adventure, seeing as it's designed for 2nd-3rd level characters and an Ettin is CR 6.

The whole thing's free online, by the way. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20000901a)

[Fable Wright]

I don't get it either. And of course the module provides exactly zero hints. And solving the riddle is probably the only way most parties are going to be able to solve the adventure, seeing as it's designed for 2nd-3rd level characters and an Ettin is CR 6.

Looking at it, itsort of makes sense. In a bizarre, nonintuitive way.
It's just the Paladin's name; the party has to figure out who this person was. So, uh, DM's job to drop very heavy hints to the Bard? But then, how would anyone know that the Ettin was Kyrnyn when no one had ever seen him as an Ettin after the fight?

Really, the best solution would probably be to run away, hire a Wizard who can cast Dispel Magic, and walk away. Or if that's not possible... wait for Muck to fall asleep, get the Cleric's life story, and then give the Cleric's name? It's still a very stupid riddle, though.

[awa]

1) Your analogy blows to the point of being fallacious, and might be scraping the forum rules.
2) I would feel bad.
3) Your point? Are gods not one alignment for not perpetually enforcing that alignment? If this is the case, why are there any clerics, Spuddles? Gods are REQUIRED, under your interpretation, to smite and destroy any cleric of an opposing religion once they perform an opposing action. Hextor has to blow up all of those paladins, and Vecna's Dread Necromancers keep getting fried by Pelor.


Oh, if that's the case, I would to hear more. Cases like that are significantly more complex, but deities can't be expected to do every little thing for everyone. There would not be an adventure if that was the case.

my understanding of what happened and i could be mistaken is a "good" cleric did a bad thing so the "good" clerics "lawful good" god punished the cleric by forcing him to run around killing the innocents who were in no way related to the problem at hand and actively prevented the cleric from trying to save the innocents until he solved a rather stupid sounding riddle. So the "good god" in this example does not seem to value innocents in any meaningful way.

So from the perspective of random farmer whose entire family was murdered becuase god of good wants to teach some guy you have never met a lesson. Do you think this is a good god or not.

note i have not played or read the adventure that was just my understanding of what happened based on the description given in the thread so mabey i misunderstood.




So the good god

[navar100]

Not that real world myth matches D&D alignment, but it was Athena who turned the beautiful Gorgon sisters into monsters for boasting of their beauty, with Medusa being the most horrible. She also humiliated Arachne in a weaving competition, turning Arachne into a spider to weave forever when she killed herself.

Apollo cursed Cassandra as punishment for spurning him. Her prophecies would always be true but no one would believe her. The City of Troy and King Agamemnon suffered greatly because of it.

In D&D lore past some undead were created by good deities as punishment, Death Knights, Heceuvas, and Ghouls come to mind. Osiris allows for the creation of mummies.

[3WhiteFox3]

Not that real world myth matches D&D alignment, but it was Athena who turned the beautiful Gorgon sisters into monsters for boasting of their beauty, with Medusa being the most horrible. She also humiliated Arachne in a weaving competition, turning Arachne into a spider to weave forever when she killed herself.

Apollo cursed Cassandra as punishment for spurning him. Her prophecies would always be true but no one would believe her. The City of Troy and King Agamemnon suffered greatly because of it.

In D&D lore past some undead were created by good deities as punishment, Death Knights, Heceuvas, and Ghouls come to mind. Osiris allows for the creation of mummies.

To be fair, there are modern supervillains that compare favorably when put side-by-side some of the things the deities of myth do.

I don't expect mythology from hundreds of years ago to ascribe to how we think today that much, but I do expect something published recently to have at least some modern view-point, unless that's the point (which, in my opinion, it wasn't in the stated module).

[Agrippa]

To be fair, there are modern supervillains that compare favorably when put side-by-side some of the things the deities of myth do.

As an aside which supervillains are you talking about?

[Maginomicon]

One of my favorites, although not necessarily horrible or badly written was adventures in dungeonland. It was a 2nd edition module that was based off of alice in wonderland and well it was just weird and well check it out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeonland
You might want to check this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1AT_FbOR0Y) out.

I just remembered the Pathfinder module that had a suggested alteration of putting a bunch of feral goblin children in a room. Everyone likes seeing Paladins get faced with lose/lose moral dilemmas, right?
...and you might want to check this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc8Ubesn9GA) out.

[Zubrowka74]

Not that real world myth matches D&D alignment, but it was Athena who turned the beautiful Gorgon sisters into monsters for boasting of their beauty, with Medusa being the most horrible. She also humiliated Arachne in a weaving competition, turning Arachne into a spider to weave forever when she killed herself.

Apollo cursed Cassandra as punishment for spurning him. Her prophecies would always be true but no one would believe her. The City of Troy and King Agamemnon suffered greatly because of it.

In D&D lore past some undead were created by good deities as punishment, Death Knights, Heceuvas, and Ghouls come to mind. Osiris allows for the creation of mummies.


Who ever said greek/roman deities were good ? Most of them when "more human than human" so to speak and had terrible flaws. They were a sort of allegorical recreation of human nature, with the same problems and dilemas.

[Chronos]

And even so, the Greek gods still limited themselves to punishing those who had offended them. They didn't punish innocent bystanders, like Hieronius is said to have done.

[Zubrowka74]

And even so, the Greek gods still limited themselves to punishing those who had offended them. They didn't punish innocent bystanders, like Hieronius is said to have done.

Not true, if my memory is correct. I'm sure I can find many exemple. Some of the Greek Gods were at time fickle, whimsical, impulsive.

[TuggyNE]

And even so, the Greek gods still limited themselves to punishing those who had offended them. They didn't punish innocent bystanders, like Hieronius is said to have done.

I don't think "Greek god" and "limit" belong in the same sentence.:smalltongue:

[Gemini476]

And even so, the Greek gods still limited themselves to punishing those who had offended them. They didn't punish innocent bystanders, like Hieronius is said to have done.

Atlantis, the actual island kingdoms the legend might have been based on, the Minotaur...
Actually, they have a thing for turning a person into a horrible monster and then letting that monster slaughter people until a capital-H Hero comes and slays it. See also: Scylla, Medusa, the Minotaur...

Also, Zeus. Hope you like swans, 'cause Zeus is gonna seduce.
And once your child is born, Hera will hate it forevermore.

[Spuddles]

1) Your analogy blows to the point of being fallacious, and might be scraping the forum rules.
2) I would feel bad.
3) Your point? Are gods not one alignment for not perpetually enforcing that alignment? If this is the case, why are there any clerics, Spuddles? Gods are REQUIRED, under your interpretation, to smite and destroy any cleric of an opposing religion once they perform an opposing action. Hextor has to blow up all of those paladins, and Vecna's Dread Necromancers keep getting fried by Pelor.


Oh, if that's the case, I would to hear more. Cases like that are significantly more complex, but deities can't be expected to do every little thing for everyone. There would not be an adventure if that was the case.

I dont think you understand what we're talking about.

See here:


my understanding of what happened and i could be mistaken is a "good" cleric did a bad thing so the "good" clerics "lawful good" god punished the cleric by forcing him to run around killing the innocents who were in no way related to the problem at hand and actively prevented the cleric from trying to save the innocents until he solved a rather stupid sounding riddle. So the "good god" in this example does not seem to value innocents in any meaningful way.

So from the perspective of random farmer whose entire family was murdered becuase god of good wants to teach some guy you have never met a lesson. Do you think this is a good god or not.

note i have not played or read the adventure that was just my understanding of what happened based on the description given in the thread so mabey i misunderstood.




So the good god

[Snowbluff]

I dont think you understand what we're talking about.

See here:

None of that was in the initial post. I've gotten 3 different stories at this point. A god is not responsible for the actions of another when he decides not to act or render aid. It's orc babies, Spuddles.

Not that I intend to continues this ludicrous argument. You essentially countered mine with another erroneous one.

[137beth]

And even so, the Greek gods still limited themselves to punishing those who had offended them. They didn't punish innocent bystanders, like Hieronius is said to have done.

Only if you don't count "getting raped" as a punishment...

...or all the people who suffer because their king offended a god and so the entire city gets punished. The Greek gods were pretty darn cruel.

EDIT: Speaking of which, I'd say The Odyssey would make a pretty crappy module/adventure path. In the big finale, it all comes down to a single diplomacy roll (convincing the fathers of the suitors not to kill you) with an impossibly high DC that can't be reached without major cheese,
and the PCs don't even get to ATTEMPT the check because a DMPC shows up, disguised as a different NPC, and makes the diplomacy check for you:smallbiggrin:

[Big Fau]

Can we stop with the morality debate and mythology stuff, and get back to the really crappy modules? I think the one that started the debate has been discussed enough.

[Coidzor]

Well, there's one module where a group of trolls or something have been directed to attack a monastery by some evil cleric or wizard or something and all he does is put up a single wall which is supposed to stop the party from getting to him until they've killed all of the trolls that are attacking the rest of the place and looting it. But the module is at a high enough level where a wizard or cleric can just take care of the wall and the party can hit him while they're still fresh and "win" the module.

Also, IIRC, the trolls are supposed to be a tougher prospect than the guy himself based upon his poor build choices.

Can't recall the name of the module though, and I'm probably misremembering some things. Was on the free list for 3.5 on the WOTC website... IIRC.

[Snowbluff]

Can we stop with the morality debate and mythology stuff, and get back to the really crappy modules? I think the one that started the debate has been discussed enough.

Can I get a thank you for disengaging? :smalltongue:

Now for a real argument.



Now, normally the cleric could just cast Dispel Magic until it works and be done with the whole mess... But Heironeous gives him a riddle and won't grant that spell until he solves it. Why? Because the cleric was too merciless to his foes as a human and this is Heironeous's way of teaching him a valuable lesson.

The cleric had fallen.

I assumed (correctly) the solution of the riddle was the name of the cleric, whose mind was bisected. The ettin head was just his evil made manifest. Once the cleric had realized his crime, and admitted his sins by solving the riddle, he would have been atoned, free of cost.

The Ettin's Riddle only sin was assuming it's audience is good at figuring out this sort of thing. Sith_Happens wasn't able to figure it out. It's one of the best written campaigns you have played, and you had no idea.

EDIT: DM of Darkness beat me to it.

EDIT2: Well... kinda. The solution would be to find the rogue, who is probably hanging around, and get the story from him. Conversion of detail would reveal to the party that the ettin was the same from the story, since they know few whose head has become two. This is just speculation, the pdf link seems dead.

[Sith_Happens]

The cleric had fallen.

That would be a perfectly logical explanation, if he had found himself spell-less some time before fighting the evil wizard rather than after he'd already been an Ettin for a while. And IIRC the actual module specifies that Dispel Magic was the only spell being denied to him.


The Ettin's Riddle only sin was assuming it's audience is good at figuring out this sort of thing. Sith_Happens wasn't able to figure it out. It's one of the best written campaigns you have played, and you had no idea.

Actually, my group went completely off the rails within five minutes of stepping into Newkeep. I never knew the Ettin was supposed to be anything besides a dumb monster until I happened upon the module itself months later.

But thanks for implying that I'm only griping because I'm sore about not solving the riddle, and not because the story implies that people have been pinning all of that Burning Hate silliness on the wrong deity.:smallannoyed:


EDIT2: Well... kinda. The solution would be to find the rogue, who is probably hanging around, and get the story from him. Conversion of detail would reveal to the party that the ettin was the same from the story, since they know few whose head has become two. This is just speculation, the pdf link seems dead.

The only way you can get the story is straight from the horse's Ettin's mouth.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I don't think "Greek god" and "limit" belong in the same sentence.:smalltongue:

Unless "limits" is preceded by "no".:smallcool:

[Snowbluff]

That would be a perfectly logical explanation, if he had found himself spell-less some time before fighting the evil wizard rather than after he'd already been an Ettin for a while. And IIRC the actual module specifies that Dispel Magic was the only spell being denied to him.If you recall?

It's implied in the background that he killed a bunch of orcs in an unsavory way after becoming the ettin. He uses the new form to his advantage rather than immediately discarding it. If he could cast dispel magic, why didn't he try that first?

Muck is an extension of the cleric as well. Unless we are using the terrible way everyone has been assigning responsibility, the ettin's murdering spree is the bloodthirstiness of the cleric that was causing him trouble before.

You've convinced me the writing is not amazing. Probation doesn't work as well as falling. The cleric still having spells is kind of a huge problem.


Actually, my group went completely off the rails within five minutes of stepping into Newkeep. I never knew the Ettin was supposed to be anything besides a dumb monster until I happened upon the module itself months later.
That would cause problems. *nods*


But thanks for implying that I'm only griping because I'm sore about not solving the riddle, and not because the story implies that people have been pinning all of that Burning Hate silliness on the wrong deity.:smallannoyed:
The general reaction to the module was a knee-jerk one. There is nothing logically wrong with the idea of the premise. Characters fall during play.

I could have actually implied stupidity by claiming the module overestimated the intelligence of the readers, but that would have been an actual insult, rather than an imagined one.:smalltongue:



The only way you can get the story is straight from the horse's Ettin's mouth. Is the opportunity to meet the cleric afforded to players?

[Sith_Happens]

Is the opportunity to meet the cleric afforded to players?

It's possible to catch him while Muck's asleep, but there's explicitly a few fairly easy ways to screw that up and an angry mob of villagers shows up after the encounter (regardless of outcome) so you can't just run for your life and try again later.

Anyways, as for demented modules, I just checked and no one's mentioned the Tomb of Horrors yet.

[Snowbluff]

It's possible to catch him while Muck's asleep, but there's explicitly a few fairly easy ways to screw that up and an angry mob of villagers shows up after the encounter (regardless of outcome) so you can't just run for your life and try again later. Okay, that's tricky. I just wanted to know if it was possible. If I had a copy, I'd rewrite it to fix the plothole and give a few more options. I do like the idea of the riddle, since it gives people a reason to try something lacking finesse.


Anyways, as for demented modules, I just checked and no one's mentioned the Tomb of Horrors yet.

Oh. That. I got a copy of the third edition one as a promo or something. It's pretty awful at times.

[Story]

Probably because people only play ToH if they actually want something unfair and poorly designed. They know what they're getting into.

It's the I Wanna Be The Guy of adventure modules.

[Aharon]

That's basically the long and short of "what's wrong here."



"Two heads have we, but born with one.
We avenged, healed, and protected.
Our master was Invincible,
But punished we all who objected.
Heeded we the six-armed king,
And so by our god were rejected.
Thus, this is our fate:
One head, twice bisected."
"Kyrnyn, the man."
I don't get it either. And of course the module provides exactly zero hints. And solving the riddle is probably the only way most parties are going to be able to solve the adventure, seeing as it's designed for 2nd-3rd level characters and an Ettin is CR 6.

The whole thing's free online, by the way. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20000901a)

Wuh? This is the riddle given to Kyrnyn? The players may not know the answer, but he should - or has being made an ettin also made him some kind of imbecile?

(Can't read the whole adventure, the download link doesn't work for me).

[Craft (Cheese)]

Wuh? This is the riddle given to Kyrnyn? The players may not know the answer, but he should - or has being made an ettin also made him some kind of imbecile?

Well, you know what they say, like God, like Cleric...

[Gemini476]

Probably because people only play ToH if they actually want something unfair and poorly designed. They know what they're getting into.

It's the I Wanna Be The Guy of adventure modules.

Well, Tomb of Horrors was one of those competitive modules they ran in ...tournaments, I think? Lots of simultaneous games, the group who first beat the module (or die last) win.

So there was a reason for its kill-you-at-the-entrance behavior.

One thing of note is that during one of those tournaments, a group put the crown on Acererak's skull and tapped it with the scepter, disintegrating him. The judge called over Gygax, who said it was a perfectly valid idea and then later changed the module before its public release so that the crown and scepter are destroyed if you try to take them out of the room they're in.

There were some other horribly difficult modules, including one famous one with Ice Giants, but the point is: those modules had a DM vs. Players design because that's how competitive modules were made.

I'm told that there are some actually decent, rather nice-ish modules for Basic and AD&D, but Tomb of Horrors seems to have made a lot of people forget that.

[Snowbluff]

Wuh? This is the riddle given to Kyrnyn? The players may not know the answer, but he should - or has being made an ettin also made him some kind of imbecile?

(Can't read the whole adventure, the download link doesn't work for me).

I just explained this. The cleric was struggling with his alignment, and he hit a wall with his god at a very inopportune moment. Realizing that he was doing wrong, rather than blaming it on Muck, would give him the answer.

[Sith_Happens]

So, does it count as derailing a thread if the thread was about to go to the second page with no replies when I posted?


I don't think "Greek god" and "limit" belong in the same sentence.:smalltongue:

Unless you mean "limit" in the Exalted sense.

[Snowbluff]

So, does it count as derailing a thread if the thread was about to go to the second page with no replies when I posted?


People are talking about the Tomb of Horrors. That's on topic.

Did WLD get mentioned yet? I heard that was bad.

[Story]

Yes, it was on the first page.

[zilonox]

I vaguely recall it had an ad in it for a follow up "world's largest city", does anyone know if they actually went through with it?

Yes (http://www.amazon.com/Largest-Dungeons-Dragons-Fantasy-Roleplaying/dp/1594720398), yes they did (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Frpg.drivethrustuff.com%2Fproduct% 2F55632%2FWorlds-Largest-City&ei=kgpPUuiBIIGorAGp-IGQAQ&usg=AFQjCNFUp0nfRby_nMyDMSGYay3SibpWeg&sig2=Q91vgq5BN1dvzqg8RIYFHA).

[awa]

you appear to have posted links to where to buy the adventure but have not told us why it is bad.

[Snowbluff]

you appear to have posted links to where to buy the adventure but have not told us why it is bad.


Indeed the writing skill and style of this text is what we have come to expect from barely literate blue-green algae.


Amazon reviews say what?

[the_david]

the Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde.

To make a long story short, the background of the adventure is better than the adventure itself. Sure, there are some interesting encounters that fit the adventure like the Maug and the Yugoloth. (They were actually pretty clever additions that felt like a perfect fit.) There were not enough demons for an adventure about a gate to the abyss though. I do think this was due to bad editing or co-writers. (Like in the Temple of Elemental Evil)
The worst thing is that it was just a dungeoncrawl. A boring dungeoncrawl.
What it should have been:
1. PCs find and explore the ruins of Slaughtergarde.
2. PCs travel to the Mountains of Sorrow beyond Measure.
3. Mu Tahn-Laa returns and invades the material plane with his army of demons.

the Sunless Citadel

Yes, I don't like SC as written. It could have been so much more. The layout of the citadel is all wrong. (Can you even call it a citadel without a city?) And really, why are the crypts at the top level? Some quick advice to improve this module:
- Use the maps from a keep from another adventure instead. The Moathouse would be a good choice. Sons of Gruumsh would also be nice
- Move the Kobolds out of the citadel. Let them dig their own dungeon in the canyon, or they could live in the ruins of the city that wasn't mentioned in the adventure.
- Make Calcryx bigger. Just find a large monster and give it a half-dragon template and your done.
- Add a catacomb level for the crypt with the skeletons and the tomb of the failed dragonpriest. This would be the LOWEST level.
- Replace the Mephit with a medium water elemental. Turn the rusted barrel into a "let there be water fountain", though this one should be obviously damaged. In fact you could add 2 of these. The broken one releases a water elemental that was driven mad by centuries of imprisonment, the other one is a magical fountain that creates water.

[navar100]

The only thing I would change about Sunless Citadel is the treasure reward of Shatterspike. It is very, very rare for a PC to take Improved Sunder feat. It destroys treasure and the PC is better off just attacking the opponent for damage to kill him already. If the PC actually likes the tactic he's better off disarming anyway. It's a lot easier.

I get the feeling Shatterspike was put in the module on purpose to push promote the Improved Sunder feat because they know players would never take it. They needed to put in some incentive. Look! Your first adventure completed, and already you get a magic weapon!

[the_david]

Actually, Shatterspike is the second magic weapon in the adventure. By the end of SC, the players should be level 3 and have about 3000 gp each.

[awa]

the review largely does not talk about any of the adventures but problems with the book itself as a physical object.

The only thing regarding the actual adventures that the review mentions is that the npcs are boring and the building layout is illogical with no further elaboration.

There are also three times as many good review for the book as bad but then Ive never felt amazon reviews are particularly useful

[Starbuck_II]

the Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde.

To make a long story short, the background of the adventure is better than the adventure itself. Sure, there are some interesting encounters that fit the adventure like the Maug and the Yugoloth. (They were actually pretty clever additions that felt like a perfect fit.) There were not enough demons for an adventure about a gate to the abyss though. I do think this was due to bad editing or co-writers. (Like in the Temple of Elemental Evil)
The worst thing is that it was just a dungeoncrawl. A boring dungeoncrawl.
What it should have been:
1. PCs find and explore the ruins of Slaughtergarde.
2. PCs travel to the Mountains of Sorrow beyond Measure.
3. Mu Tahn-Laa returns and invades the material plane with his army of demons.

Why don't you write a handbook about it?


the Sunless Citadel

Yes, I don't like SC as written. It could have been so much more. The layout of the citadel is all wrong. (Can you even call it a citadel without a city?) And really, why are the crypts at the top level? Some quick advice to improve this module:
Remember it sunk. So only the citadel remains.

[Snowbluff]

There are also three times as many good review for the book as bad but then Ive never felt amazon reviews are particularly useful
The negative review has many more people considering it helpful.

[Chronos]

I think that WLD is probably in the same category as Tomb of Horrors, in that you know what you're getting when you go into it.

[Big Fau]

Why don't you write a handbook about it?

I may want to do that, although I'd appreciate any help others could provide.

[Coidzor]

I may want to do that, although I'd appreciate any help others could provide.

Sweet. :smallbiggrin:

[CRtwenty]

While I wouldn't consider it demented or messed up, every time I've attempted to run the "Expedition to Castle Greyhawk" campaign my PCs have managed to derail it in rather some rather spectacular fashion.

The time they tried to kill Mordenkainen at level 10 still cracks me up when I think about it. :smalltongue: