Un-Nerfing a Samurai

[yaluckyboy09]

So I'm DMing a campaign with my buddies and one of them is using my old backup Samurai (from Complete Warrior) upped about four levels. We noticed that the Samurai isn't really, how would I put it... balanced right

My buddy still wants to use a Samurai character (he thinks Samurai are awesome, which they are) and I wanna try to Un-Nerf the Samurai's Class Progression a bit and I was hoping on some feedback

I was thinking about giving the Samurai a Bonus Feat (like the Fighter) at every four levels (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th) as well as this ability to reduce the Armor Check Penalty from Heavy Armor by 2 at 8th Level and by another 1 at 13th and 18th Levels

As well as adding Jump, Climb, Tumble, Spot and Listen to their Class Skill list and giving them 2 extra Skill Points per Level (the Samurai should be able to move around easily even with heavy armor, and this would go well with the reduced Armor Check Penalty)

What do you guys think?

[Hiro Protagonest]

...Tell him to play a warblade. Give him a greatsword and call it a nodachi.

Or 3.0 OA samurai.

[yaluckyboy09]

...Tell him to play a warblade. Give him a greatsword and call it a nodachi.

Or 3.0 OA samurai.

what book? (don't have much 3.0 knowledge)

[A_S]

OA = Oriental Adventures.

[yaluckyboy09]

OA = Oriental Adventures.

yeah... I'm not going near that thing

[Red Fel]

Honestly? Play another class. "Samurai" is more than just a class name; it's a flavor, a style, a holistic approach to a character. It's possible to play a samurai without taking a single level in the class; indeed, it's probably encouraged.

That said, what you're proposing... doesn't really make up for the class' shortcomings. The feats help a lot, definitely. The skills... aren't terrible. The reduction of armor penalty, while nice, won't make much of a change for them.

There have been several (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163793) proposed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134119) fixes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79512) here in the forums, and others elsewhere (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Samurai,_Tome_%283.5e_Class%29). A quick search of the intarwebs will reveal an abundance of options, if you want to use what others have designed, or model your own after theirs.

As a side note, Warblade is Tome of Battle. Which is an excellent source for all things melee.

[awa]

it depends on what you want the samurai to be doing. Will that be enough to let him hold his own with a fighter probably, will it be enough to let him hold his own with a druid probably not.

[Hiro Protagonest]

yeah... I'm not going near that thing

Why? The class is slightly better than fighter.

It depends on your power level. Either warblade is the right strength, or OA samurai is the right strength, or they're both too weak and he should play CoDzilla.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yea, even The Giant did a few strips about how being a Samurai is a cultural thing, not a class thing. You don't have to have the class 'Samurai' to consider yourself a samurai. Which, incidentally, generally went in for polearms and longbows on horseback. The Katana was a status symbol, but they were smart enough to realize that if you can kill your opponent before he closes with you, then you live longer.

Having said that, there is one use for the CW Samurai (see sig for details). I wouldn't exactly suggest it for use in a game but... well... there ya go.

[yaluckyboy09]

Honestly? Play another class. "Samurai" is more than just a class name; it's a flavor, a style, a holistic approach to a character. It's possible to play a samurai without taking a single level in the class; indeed, it's probably encouraged.

That said, what you're proposing... doesn't really make up for the class' shortcomings. The feats help a lot, definitely. The skills... aren't terrible. The reduction of armor penalty, while nice, won't make much of a change for them.

There have been several (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163793) proposed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134119) fixes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79512) here in the forums, and others elsewhere (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Samurai,_Tome_%283.5e_Class%29). A quick search of the intarwebs will reveal an abundance of options, if you want to use what others have designed, or model your own after theirs.

As a side note, Warblade is Tome of Battle. Which is an excellent source for all things melee.

I love all the stuff that's in the Tome of Battle and would personally use one myself if I weren't the Dungeon Master

I'm trying to get my friend to see it this way, but it's his first time and it's kinda the only way I can get this done without stopping the session for a week just so I can explain how each of the different classes work so he can choose something else...

Thanks for the alternate options though, I'll see if any of those work

[yaluckyboy09]

Why? The class is slightly better than fighter.

It depends on your power level. Either warblade is the right strength, or OA samurai is the right strength, or they're both too weak and he should play CoDzilla.

Just a preference really, I don't like it and I don't really know how else to explain it

[lsfreak]

Which, incidentally, generally went in for polearms and longbows on horseback. The Katana was a status symbol, but they were smart enough to realize that if you can kill your opponent before he closes with you, then you live longer.

That's kinda true everywhere. Main weapons of war have always been pretty much spears and bows (with some variations), and with very few exceptions it's been that way until guns came around. Swords are sidearms, or civilian weapons.

[Hiro Protagonest]

That's kinda true everywhere. Main weapons of war have always been pretty much spears and bows (with some variations), and with very few exceptions it's been that way until guns came around. Swords are sidearms, or civilian weapons.

'Cept shields are really strong. Granted, axes and warhammers are still a thing, but at that point it's mostly preference.

[eggynack]

Why? The class is slightly better than fighter.

It depends on your power level. Either warblade is the right strength, or OA samurai is the right strength, or they're both too weak and he should play CoDzilla.
I'd actually call it worse than a fighter. You're trading a good number of feats, as well as some reasonably powerful ACF's, for a pair of free weapons and marginally better skill use. Fighter is at the top of tier 5, verging into tier 4, and samurai is a middling tier 5 at best.


Just a preference really, I don't like it and I don't really know how else to explain it
You should go with the cleric thing then. I just really frigging hate that samurai. I mean, just look at its TWF progression. It gets TWF at second level, ITWF at 11th, and GTWF at 16th. That leaves you stranded behind normal progression, or else you lose out on those abilities entirely. Samurai can kinda do the intimidation shtick, but that's about all they do. Figure out what this guy wants his samurai to do, like the actual way that he plans to approach combat and out of combat situations, and build towards that. You might also want to find out the kinda personality he intends for this character to have, because that informs class choice as well. Trying to rebuild one of the worst designed classes in the game (I dunno, bottom five? I haven't counted.) is not the best way to do this.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd actually call it worse than a fighter. You're trading a good number of feats, as well as some reasonably powerful ACF's, for a pair of free weapons and marginally better skill use. Fighter is at the top of tier 5, verging into tier 4, and samurai is a middling tier 5 at best.
The OA samurai is different from the CWar one. (Which is listed at T6)

But yeah, I vote for the "give him the conversation about how class name =/= what the character really is" speech and point him towards a better class. Which at this point is anything, really. Warblade or Crusader are most optimal, but also the most complicated. I'd vote for Knight, truth be told-- it hits pretty much all the same notes (hand him a longsword with "katana" written on the side in crayon), and is at least more interesting to play. Just give it a few more skill points, a special mount, and maybe a few smites, and you've got a solid class.

[mabriss lethe]

The warblade is actually pretty easy to teach to new players. Print out maneuver cards, give him a hand full and tell him to pick the ones he wants. The cards do a pretty good job of explaining what they do. He'll have his cards handy and when it comes time for combat, he can just follow the instructions as printed.

[eggynack]

The OA samurai is different from the CWar one. (Which is listed at T6)
I got what he was talking about. CW samurai is tier 6, which is a whole lot worse than a fighter, and OA samurai is mid tier 5, which is somewhat worse than a fighter. OA samurai gets a slowed feat progression compared to a fighter, and they obviously don't get access to fighter ACF's, which are sweet.

[Frosty]

Eh, use this one instead if you still want a class with the word "Samurai" in it :smallbiggrin:: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai

[yaluckyboy09]

The OA samurai is different from the CWar one. (Which is listed at T6)

But yeah, I vote for the "give him the conversation about how class name =/= what the character really is" speech and point him towards a better class. Which at this point is anything, really. Warblade or Crusader are most optimal, but also the most complicated. I'd vote for Knight, truth be told-- it hits pretty much all the same notes (hand him a longsword with "katana" written on the side in crayon), and is at least more interesting to play. Just give it a few more skill points, a special mount, and maybe a few smites, and you've got a solid class.

I'm planning on giving him "the talk" pretty soon, I just don't want to have to interrupt the session for it

It might also take him a while to get used to tabletop gaming and I don't want to drown him in rules and expanded classes to the point that he goes back to Video Games

.....this is gonna take a while

[yaluckyboy09]

The warblade is actually pretty easy to teach to new players. Print out maneuver cards, give him a hand full and tell him to pick the ones he wants. The cards do a pretty good job of explaining what they do. He'll have his cards handy and when it comes time for combat, he can just follow the instructions as printed.

you have a point, I might try and convince him to do that instead

he does seem to like the idea of maneuvers

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mmm. Well, if you want to power up the CWar samurai...

More skill points. Always, always worth it.
Generic bonus feats never hurt.
Grant the TWF feats when they first become relevant.
Grant the ability to attack with both weapons whenever you would be able to attack with one (standard actions and AoOs, mostly)-- call it level 5.
Full attacks as a standard action at level 10 or so.
Copy the Zhentarium Fighter's intimidation abilities, and graft 'em straight onto the Samurai chassis.
Maybe add a mount (animal companion rules) and some mounted combat stuff? Samurai liked their horses...

[ngilop]

I created a samurai fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278499) I basically combined the OA samurai's abiltilies ( ancestral diasho) with the CW samurai. Then added in a smalla mount of invocations

I tried to keep true to the mythological samurai legends and have them be supernatual in abilities. as in my campaign wrodl only Fighters and Rogues are truely mundane.

take a look and let me know if it suits you needs, I only got 1 good critique for my samuria the rest of the thread was some crying about how samurai are a caste not a class and complaining about katans...

[yaluckyboy09]

Mmm. Well, if you want to power up the CWar samurai...

More skill points. Always, always worth it.
Generic bonus feats never hurt.
Grant the TWF feats when they first become relevant.
Grant the ability to attack with both weapons whenever you would be able to attack with one (standard actions and AoOs, mostly)-- call it level 5.
Full attacks as a standard action at level 10 or so.
Copy the Zhentarium Fighter's intimidation abilities, and graft 'em straight onto the Samurai chassis.
Maybe add a mount (animal companion rules) and some mounted combat stuff? Samurai liked their horses...


Most of those are what I was gonna give (I was gonna give them a Whirlwind Attack 1/day at Level 10 and 2/day at Level 16) and I was gonna lower the Level required for Frightful Presence (maybe Level 15)

[yaluckyboy09]

I created a samurai fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278499) I basically combined the OA samurai's abiltilies ( ancestral diasho) with the CW samurai. Then added in a smalla mount of invocations

I tried to keep true to the mythological samurai legends and have them be supernatual in abilities. as in my campaign wrodl only Fighters and Rogues are truely mundane.

take a look and let me know if it suits you needs, I only got 1 good critique for my samuria the rest of the thread was some crying about how samurai are a caste not a class and complaining about katans...

I actually like the idea of Invocations, but I don't really think it would work out

I'm currently working on my version and I'm balancing the ideas you guys are all sending me (I love figuring these things out)

[JaronK]

First, I'll agree that the Warblade is the solid Samurai class. Just pick from maneuvers that feel right (Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and White Raven are all usually great, while Stone Dragon is often useful) and go with it.

If that doesn't work, an easy "fix" is just to gestalt CW Samurai with OA Samurai and, starting at level 8 or so, Iaijutsu Master. That way the name of the classes is right (if you care about such things) and the resulting class is... well, it's decent. Still not amazing, but you can slice things quite well.

JaronK

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That's kinda true everywhere. Main weapons of war have always been pretty much spears and bows (with some variations), and with very few exceptions it's been that way until guns came around. Swords are sidearms, or civilian weapons.

The Romans used shortswords and shields, basically pushed their way forward with shields, then stabbed with the murderous shortswords until opponents were dead. They also used lead-tipped 'darts' (basically throwing spears' which was used primarily to hit and stick to the other guy's shields so the shield would drop giving the next volley an opening. 'Cause you know, having some fifty pounds of lead stuck to the front of your shield is a PITA to hold up (since you've got a HUNDRED of those things comin' at ya per volley...).

[yaluckyboy09]

Here's what I have so far, I lowered the levels for a few class abilities, gave him a few more abilities and added some bonus feats


Class Skills
The samurai’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis) Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex). See Chapter 4 in the Player’s Handbook for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifi er) × 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifi er.

Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Daisho Proficiency
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Two swords as one
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Kiai Smite 1/day
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Bonus Feat
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Iaijutsu Master
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Staredown
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Kiai Smite 2/day
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Improved Initiative, Bonus Feat
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Mass Staredown
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 Kiai Whirlwind 1/day
11th +11/+6/+1/+7 +7 +3 Improved Two swords as one
12th +12/+7/+2/+8 +8 +4 Kiai Smite 3/day, Bonus Feat
13th +13/+8/+3/+8 +8 +4 Improved Staredown
14th +14/+9/+4/+9 +9 +4 Greater Two swords as one
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 Frightful Presence
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Kiai Whirlwind 1/day, Bonus Feat
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Kiai Smite 4/day
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Unconquerable
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Overwhelming Renown
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 Improved Frightful Presence, Bonus Feat
(I have no idea how to make those boxes)

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the samurai.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A samurai is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all types of armor, but not with shields.

Daisho Proficiency (Ex): In melee combat, a samurai favors the katana (a masterwork bastard sword) and the wakizashi (a masterwork short sword). Many samurai receive an heirloom set of these two blades, known as the daisho. Because a samurai is trained in their use, he gains Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) as a bonus feat.

Two Swords as One (Ex): At 2nd level, a samurai has learned to wield the katana and wakizashi together. He is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when wielding a katana and wakizashi, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for that feat.

Kiai Smite (Ex): Once per day, a samurai of 3rd level or higher can give a great cry during combat that invigorates him. When a samurai shouts (a free action), his next attack gains a bonus on the attack roll and the damage roll equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum +1). As a samurai gains levels, he can make a kiai smite more often.

Bonus Feat (Ex): At 4th level, a samurai obtains a Bonus Feat chosen from the Fighter’s Bonus Feat list. A samurai obtains another Feat at 8th level and every four levels afterwards.

Iaijutsu Master (Ex): By 5th level, a samurai has become adept at iaijutsu, a fighting technique that concentrates on drawing his weapon and striking a foe in one fluid motion. He is treated as having the Quick Draw feat, but only when he draws his katana or wakizashi.

Staredown (Ex): At 6th level, a samurai becomes able to strike fear into his foes by his mere presence. He gains a +4 bonus on Intimidate checks and can demoralize an opponent (as described in the Intimidate skill description, page 76 of the Player’s Handbook).

Improved Initiative (Ex): At 8th level, the samurai has practiced iaijutsu techniques used in ritual duels between two samurai, and he is able to anticipate when any enemy will attack. He now has the Improved Initiative feat.

Mass Staredown (Ex): At 9th level, a samurai has sufficient presence that he can cow multiple foes. Using am Intimidate check, the samurai can demoralize all opponents within 30 feet with a single standard action.

Kiai Whirlwind (Ex): At 10th level, a samurai learns to use a full attack action to perform a Whirlwind Attack (the same as the Feat from page 102 of the Player’s Handbook) once a day even if he doesn’t normally fill the requirements. He can use this ability twice a day at 16th level.

Improved Two Swords as One (Ex): At 11th level, a samurai’s prowess with the katana and wakizashi improves. He is treated as having the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat when wielding a katana and wakizashi, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for the feat.

Improved Staredown (Ex): At 13th level, even a glance from the hard eyes of a samurai is enough to give his foes pause. The samurai can demoralize opponents within 30 feet as a move action, not a standard action.

Greater Two Swords as One (Ex): At 14th level, fighting with a katana and wakizashi becomes second nature for a samurai. He is treated as having the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat when wielding a katana and wakizashi, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for that feat.

Frightful Presence (Ex): A 15th-level samurai’s bravery, honor, and fighting prowess have become legendary. When the samurai draws his blade, opponents within 30 feet must succeed on a Will save (DC 20 + samurai’s Cha modifier) or become panicked for 4d6 rounds (if they have 4 or fewer Hit
Dice) or shaken for 4d6 rounds (if they have from 5 to 19 Hit Dice). Creatures with 20 or more Hit Dice are not affected. Any foe that successfully resists the effect cannot be affected again by the same samurai’s frightful presence for 24 hours.

Unconquerable (Ex): An 18th-level samurai’s resolve and determination is so great that when he is reduced to less than zero hit points (but is still alive) he no longer takes a point of damage for performing a standard action, as he usually would according to the Diehard feat. Furthermore, he does not die until he is reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to his class level and may continue to perform either a move action or a standard action each round until that point.

Overwhelming Renown (Ex): A samurai of 19th level is treated as a lord in the eyes of citizens and seen as a brave warrior in the eyes of lords and nobles. Enemies who succeed a Knowledge (Nobility) DC 20 will recall of your exploits and be panicked for 2D6 rounds regardless of Hit Dice. Citizens and merchants who pass such a Check will gladly offer services and discounts in awe.

Improved Frightful Presence (Ex): At 20th level, a samurai can inspire terror with a simple movement of the hand. Frightful Presence can be triggered by simply moving a hand towards a weapon (not necessarily your own) and has a range of 60 feet instead of 30.

[Flame of Anor]

I suggest you cross-post to the Homebrew forum for constructive criticism.

[Red Fel]

Improved Frightful Presence (Ex): At 20th level, a samurai can inspire terror with a simple movement of the hand. Frightful Presence can be triggered by simply moving a hand towards a weapon (not necessarily your own) and has a range of 60 feet instead of 30.

I have to say, that's an interesting capstone. I've seen upgrades to Frightful Presence that increase the radius, or increase the penalty from Shaken to Panicked, but never one that triggers off of threatening to attack.

Flavor-wise, that's a little awesome.

It manages to keep the flavor of the classic Samurai class, which is good for the purists. It manages to add some functionality, which is also good.

The thing about this class - both in its base form and in the modifications you've made - is that it suffers from MAD. Specifically, it is a melee class, meaning that it depends on Str, Dex and Con, but many of its abilities also trigger off of Cha. Also, the fear/intimidation effects are limited in application - certain things are immune to those effects.

That said? It's somewhat of an upgrade over Vanilla Samurai. You get a kudo.

[eggynack]

First thing you've gotta do if you want to do this, just from a brief overview of your fix, is move the TWF feats to their appropriate levels. That means TWF at 1, ITWF at 6, and GTWF at 11. TWF is a pretty terrible combat style, and having your character behind on the chain doubles down on the issue. You either have to take the feats separately, ruining the class' internal progression of TWF, or let yourself fall behind on an already borked system. It's bad enough that I'm inclined to just go THF, even though you're getting the feats for free, as well as abilities incentivizing the style.

[yaluckyboy09]

I have to say, that's an interesting capstone. I've seen upgrades to Frightful Presence that increase the radius, or increase the penalty from Shaken to Panicked, but never one that triggers off of threatening to attack.

Flavor-wise, that's a little awesome.

It manages to keep the flavor of the classic Samurai class, which is good for the purists. It manages to add some functionality, which is also good.

The thing about this class - both in its base form and in the modifications you've made - is that it suffers from MAD. Specifically, it is a melee class, meaning that it depends on Str, Dex and Con, but many of its abilities also trigger off of Cha. Also, the fear/intimidation effects are limited in application - certain things are immune to those effects.

That said? It's somewhat of an upgrade over Vanilla Samurai. You get a kudo.

well it's good to here, I'll probably stick with this and maybe give some feedback after we've played it a bit more

[Grod_The_Giant]

Skills
Better


Kiai Smite (Ex): Once per day, a samurai of 3rd level or higher can give a great cry during combat that invigorates him. When a samurai shouts (a free action), his next attack gains a bonus on the attack roll and the damage roll equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum +1). As a samurai gains levels, he can make a kiai smite more often.
Still disgustingly weak. If this were at will, it'd be fairly balanced. This is just insulting. Add level to damage, and let it be used level+Cha times per day, or once every 1d4 rounds, or something like that.


Iaijutsu Master (Ex): By 5th level, a samurai has become adept at iaijutsu, a fighting technique that concentrates on drawing his weapon and striking a foe in one fluid motion. He is treated as having the Quick Draw feat, but only when he draws his katana or wakizashi.
I think we can afford to expand this to the general feat.


Staredown (Ex): At 6th level, a samurai becomes able to strike fear into his foes by his mere presence. He gains a +4 bonus on Intimidate checks and can demoralize an opponent (as described in the Intimidate skill description, page 76 of the Player’s Handbook).
Are you missing "as a swift action" or some such here?


Improved Initiative (Ex): At 8th level, the samurai has practiced iaijutsu techniques used in ritual duels between two samurai, and he is able to anticipate when any enemy will attack. He now has the Improved Initiative feat.
Boring but useful, I suppose.


Mass Staredown (Ex): At 9th level, a samurai has sufficient presence that he can cow multiple foes. Using am Intimidate check, the samurai can demoralize all opponents within 30 feet with a single standard action.
Yeah, OK.


Kiai Whirlwind (Ex): At 10th level, a samurai learns to use a full attack action to perform a Whirlwind Attack (the same as the Feat from page 102 of the Player’s Handbook) once a day even if he doesn’t normally fill the requirements. He can use this ability twice a day at 16th level.
Insultingly weak, again. Let this be at will, for the love of god.


Improved Two Swords as One (Ex): At 11th level, a samurai’s prowess with the katana and wakizashi improves. He is treated as having the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat when wielding a katana and wakizashi, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for the feat.
You wanted this at 6th level, I think. At 11th, you should be granting Greater TWF.


Frightful Presence (Ex): A 15th-level samurai’s bravery, honor, and fighting prowess have become legendary. When the samurai draws his blade, opponents within 30 feet must succeed on a Will save (DC 20 + samurai’s Cha modifier) or become panicked for 4d6 rounds (if they have 4 or fewer Hit
Dice) or shaken for 4d6 rounds (if they have from 5 to 19 Hit Dice). Creatures with 20 or more Hit Dice are not affected. Any foe that successfully resists the effect cannot be affected again by the same samurai’s frightful presence for 24 hours.
Drop the HD limits, and base the degree of fear on how badly you failed the save-- it'll have a similar effect (scaring weak creatures more), but will be more useful.


Unconquerable (Ex): An 18th-level samurai’s resolve and determination is so great that when he is reduced to less than zero hit points (but is still alive) he no longer takes a point of damage for performing a standard action, as he usually would according to the Diehard feat. Furthermore, he does not die until he is reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to his class level and may continue to perform either a move action or a standard action each round until that point.
Not overwhelming, but OK.


Overwhelming Renown (Ex): A samurai of 19th level is treated as a lord in the eyes of citizens and seen as a brave warrior in the eyes of lords and nobles. Enemies who succeed a Knowledge (Nobility) DC 20 will recall of your exploits and be panicked for 2D6 rounds regardless of Hit Dice. Citizens and merchants who pass such a Check will gladly offer services and discounts in awe.
Cool idea, but the check is too high. (And auto-panicking foes is too powerful)


Improved Frightful Presence (Ex): At 20th level, a samurai can inspire terror with a simple movement of the hand. Frightful Presence can be triggered by simply moving a hand towards a weapon (not necessarily your own) and has a range of 60 feet instead of 30.
Underhelming.

tl;dr: It's an improvement, but not much of one. Go big or go home!

[Muenster Man]

While this isn't a whole fix, I would recommend giving the Samurai a class feature that allows them to completely ignore DR, which is generally one of the worst drawbacks of 2-wp fighting.

Maybe call it Peerless Cut (I'm terrible at naming abilities), they get it around level 10, and they can only use it with Katanas and Wakizashis

[yaluckyboy09]

While this isn't a whole fix, I would recommend giving the Samurai a class feature that allows them to completely ignore DR, which is generally one of the worst drawbacks of 2-wp fighting.

Maybe call it Peerless Cut (I'm terrible at naming abilities), they get it around level 10, and they can only use it with Katanas and Wakizashis

that's actually a good idea, it would really fit with the Samurai's theme

perhaps gives the option of choosing this ability or the Whirlwind ability (which I'll be adding CHA to attack and damage roles) at level 10 and increases the amount of Damage Reduction it bypasses at level 16

[Red Fel]

that's actually a good idea, it would really fit with the Samurai's theme

perhaps gives the option of choosing this ability or the Whirlwind ability (which I'll be adding CHA to attack and damage roles) at level 10 and increases the amount of Damage Reduction it bypasses at level 16

If you want a flavor name, call it "Zantetsuken". It translates to "Iron-Cutting Sword," and will immediately make Final Fantasy fans cheer.

[Muenster Man]

that's actually a good idea, it would really fit with the Samurai's theme

perhaps gives the option of choosing this ability or the Whirlwind ability (which I'll be adding CHA to attack and damage roles) at level 10 and increases the amount of Damage Reduction it bypasses at level 16

Yeah, maybe the amount of DR should scale, so it isn't immediately really powerful. Personally when it comes to fixing poor classes, and the class has a choice to pick between two distinctive fighting styles/feats, my solution is usually: "why not both?" That's at least what I do with Monks and Rangers. Mostly because the ceiling is so high for other characters, it hardly feels broken.

[JaronK]

The Romans used shortswords and shields, basically pushed their way forward with shields, then stabbed with the murderous shortswords until opponents were dead. They also used lead-tipped 'darts' (basically throwing spears' which was used primarily to hit and stick to the other guy's shields so the shield would drop giving the next volley an opening. 'Cause you know, having some fifty pounds of lead stuck to the front of your shield is a PITA to hold up (since you've got a HUNDRED of those things comin' at ya per volley...).

That's basically the one exception, and even the romans made good use of short throwing spears and bows.

JaronK

[Manly Man]

And on top of that, the Roman solution to everything was to just throw more men at it until it wasn't annoying anymore.

[lsfreak]

That's basically the one exception, and even the romans made good use of short throwing spears and bows.

JaronK

Yep. I've variously claims that the Romans, for a short period of time, genuinely used swords as their primary weapon; but I've heard others say that's it's really the pilum that was the primary weapon. The only other exception I've heard of were the Landsknechts, another group of exceptionally-well-disciplined soldiers, but my understanding is Zweihaender were often used to much the same effect as spears due to their size.

[JaronK]

Yep. I've variously claims that the Romans, for a short period of time, genuinely used swords as their primary weapon; but I've heard others say that's it's really the pilum that was the primary weapon. The only other exception I've heard of were the Landsknechts, another group of exceptionally-well-disciplined soldiers, but my understanding is Zweihaender were often used to much the same effect as spears due to their size.

The Landsknechts used pikes primarily, and used Halberds as a backup. The Zweihaender was just a support weapon to chop off enemy pikes, replaced later by the Halberd for that role.

As for the Romans, they were combat engineers, not soldiers. But that worked very well.

JaronK

[Lilapop]

To me, the beauty of the CW Samurai is TWF without dex requirements, combined with a non-woody-sissy flavor. Sure, it kind of misses that goal by a hair because it pushes the TWF feats back a bunch of levels, but thats homebrewed into making sense by the flick of the wrist, and was already mentioned.
Whats still missing, is Power Attack with the wakizashi and being able to apply weapon-specific feats to both weapons. If you want to focus your feats on intimidation, fine - but not everyone will, and those shouldn't have to take all the feats twice.

[eggynack]

To me, the beauty of the CW Samurai is TWF without dex requirements, combined with a non-woody-sissy flavor. Sure, it kind of misses that goal by a hair because it pushes the TWF feats back a bunch of levels, but thats homebrewed into making sense by the flick of the wrist, and was already mentioned.
Whats still missing, is Power Attack with the wakizashi and being able to apply weapon-specific feats to both weapons. If you want to focus your feats on intimidation, fine - but not everyone will, and those shouldn't have to take all the feats twice.
Well, there's the issue where it delays your progression, which is just absolutely horrible on every conceivable level, but that's not really the only problem. At the end of the day, you're swinging a pair of swords without a source of precision damage, and that's a quick and brutal path to irrelevance. You also have to use a bastard sword, which I find horrible on principle. You either have to use this terrible combat style, with no way to make it good, or you have to pick up an actually good weapon, and travel around as a glorified warrior. The latter is the better option, in my opinion, and that's a bad thing.

It only takes a flick of the wrist to get the TWF line back where it needs to be, but it takes a whole hell of a lot more than that to get the class where it needs to be. My general advice is to just avoid that hot mess, and play a crusader, cleric, warblade, or any of the other options that fit your idea of the class. It's easier, obviously, but it's also probably better. When easy and good intersect, that's a plan that's worth using.

[Spuddles]

A bunch of middle eastern bronze & iron age armies fielded a lot of light infantry equipped with swords- from the Sumerians to the Babylonians, Hittites, Egyptians, Assyrians, Persians, and Arabs.


Yea, even The Giant did a few strips about how being a Samurai is a cultural thing, not a class thing. You don't have to have the class 'Samurai' to consider yourself a samurai. Which, incidentally, generally went in for polearms and longbows on horseback. The Katana was a status symbol, but they were smart enough to realize that if you can kill your opponent before he closes with you, then you live longer.

Having said that, there is one use for the CW Samurai (see sig for details). I wouldn't exactly suggest it for use in a game but... well... there ya go.

A rogue is a cultural thing; a paladin is a cultural thing; a cleric is a cultural thing; a druid is a cultural thing. All classes should be reduced to fighter, magic-user, and thief. Oh, and dwarf.

[Manly Man]

Back on topic, the suggestion of the Warblade as the crunch and fluffing him as a samurai is probably the best idea. It's a little complicated, but it's not anywhere near as much of a headache as keeping a spellbook, and altogether, it's a Hell of a lot more fun, once you've figured out the workings of it. Warblade's the simplest, and the easiest to refluff into whatever you want. As someone had said at their suggestion of using a Knight, write 'katana' on the side of a longsword, or even just give him free proficiency with a bastard sword, since it's not that great of a weapon anyway, and send him on his way.

[Spuddles]

Back on topic, the suggestion of the Warblade as the crunch and fluffing him as a samurai is probably the best idea. It's a little complicated, but it's not anywhere near as much of a headache as keeping a spellbook, and altogether, it's a Hell of a lot more fun, once you've figured out the workings of it. Warblade's the simplest, and the easiest to refluff into whatever you want. As someone had said at their suggestion of using a Knight, write 'katana' on the side of a longsword, or even just give him free proficiency with a bastard sword, since it's not that great of a weapon anyway, and send him on his way.

Yeah, best advice is to play warblade, put some skill points in craft: caligraphy, perform: koan, perform: tea ceremony, diplomacy, knowledge: nobility, martial lore, and go tiger claw if you want to dual wield. Otherwise wield a greatsword and call it katana. You can even wield a bastard sword two handed as a martial weapon.

[Malroth]

lv 1)Ancestral Diasho. A lv 1 Samurai begins play with a Matched set Masterwork swords, A Katana (bastard sword) And a Wakazashi (shortsword) When Wielding these blades, The Samurai May make full Iterative attacks with Each hand without penalty, He also adds one point of Charisma modifier per Samurai Level to Each attack made with the Ancestral Diasho. The Diasho may be Enchanted as If it was a Single weapon or as two seperate weapons, and The Samurai May choose to have any spell or spell like ability that targets one of the blades to affect both.

[bekeleven]

Mmm. Well, if you want to power up the CWar samurai...

More skill points. Always, always worth it.
Generic bonus feats never hurt.
Grant the TWF feats when they first become relevant.
Grant the ability to attack with both weapons whenever you would be able to attack with one (standard actions and AoOs, mostly)-- call it level 5.
Full attacks as a standard action at level 10 or so.
Copy the Zhentarium Fighter's intimidation abilities, and graft 'em straight onto the Samurai chassis.
Maybe add a mount (animal companion rules) and some mounted combat stuff? Samurai liked their horses...

I try not to be a self-promoter, but seriously, try my class the Dashing Dualist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302593) out. It's got:


6+int skills.
6 generic fighter bonus feats.
10 fixed TWF-flavored feats + 3 TWF Weapon-style feats - basically as many as you need to pretend TWF is half as good as PA+LA+ST.
The ability to attack with 2 weapons on standard actions and AoOs.
Pounce-equivalent before level 10
The ability to intimidate faster as well as a scaling bonus on CHA-based abilities
....No mount. But it does have other fun stuff like bardic knowledge, speed boosts, charging improvements, trapfinding and other forms of skill moneying, fixed damage boosts per-hit, and power attack boost specifically for off-hand weapons, AC bonus in light armor, plus improved evasion,mettle, and uncanny dodge, charisma to damage, and charisma to initiative.

Anyway, it's somewhere between high tier 4 and mid-tier 3, so it's pretty balanced, but if someone compares it to T5 or T6 classes they would say how OP it was, I'm sure. Ah well, it looks less impressive if you knock off the flavor stuff, like the speed bonus, skill tricks bonus, aid another bonus, etc.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A rogue is a cultural thing; a paladin is a cultural thing; a cleric is a cultural thing; a druid is a cultural thing. All classes should be reduced to fighter, magic-user, and thief. Oh, and dwarf.

Over-exaggeration for effect is unbecoming of a man of your intellect, good sir.

Rogue, Paladin, Cleric, Druid... these are convenient labels for the mechanics they represent.

Having said that, ANY class may call themselves anything. You could have a Cleric of a trickster god call himself a rogue, and generally do a pretty good job at it. Or your could have a Cleric of a deity of war call himself a Paladin and be mechanically superior while maintaining the same flavor.

Unfortunately, not all classes are created equal. CW Samurai are at the shallow end of the optimization pool. Other than one cute little trick, there really isn't a redeeming feature about this class, nor any mechanics which are terribly useful. In short, the game as a whole would not be hurt by the class ceasing to exist entirely.

Fortunately, you don't actually have to play the class Samurai to have a character who is a martial combatant who is fiercely loyal to his shogun, has sworn to follow Bushido, and uses the title Samurai to describe his social rank.

[ddude987]

It surprises me that he wants to be a samurai and is accepting, sort of, the CW samurai class. Samurai didn't fight with two-weapons [B]at the same time.[B] Well, maybe I'm wrong and am inviting a bunch of hate, but that's something I've read and learned from multiple primary and secondary sources.
Fixes?: Replace the twf feat with power attack, give him ijitsu focus as a skill, along with skills like jump tumble etc, 4 skill points per level and then fill in the dead levels with bonus feats or home brewed abilities. Also the samurai is probably deserving of another good save, and arguments for Ref or Will could both be made. Also the mettle ability somewhere in the class.

[BWR]

Roughly:

The samurai as a warrior is the Way of Horse and Bow. Mounted archery is the thing. Lances and other polearms are also good war weapons. The sword is backup.
The focus on the sword really only came about in peace time, along with the overly idealistic bushido codification.

Iaijutsu/Iaido was a series of techniques for reacting to ambushes. In d20 terms it's more along the lines of Uncanny Dodge and Quick Draw than Hitting Really Hard. The use of iaijutsu as duels is basically taken whole-cloth from Sanjuro, and it was in there because Kurosawa liked Westerns and wanted a quick draw duel in there.
Then L5R adopted it and OA made a crappy conversion of it for d20.

The CW samurai is pointless drivel and should be exterminated. Roll up a Fighter with maybe some dips in classes that give more skill points if you want to play up the genteel warrior bit (not all samurai were high classed and well educated).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually... Feat Ranger does quite well as a classic Samurai. Get bonus Fighter feats instead of spells. If you want to go more traditional, you pick up the ranged specialization, with Mounted Archery thrown in. If you want to go more cinematic, go for TWF and knock yourself out.

Either way, he has the number of skill points and the skill selection to be a tactically sound ambusher/skirmisher. About the only skill they don't have is Sense Motive, I suppose a lenient GM would let you trade off the Animal Companion for it.

Otherwise, your Animal Companion is your horse. There was a long and deep connection between a Samurai and his horse LONG before it got into the business of katanas, this fits perfectly.

[Kioras]

Or you could just stick the warblade manuever, stance progression and rules onto the samurai base class, or his samurai, so that way that way not much else work needs to be done.