Idea for Conjuration

[Aasimar]

Hey, as we all know, Conjuration is by far the most powerful school of magic, doesn't matter if we're talking about 3.0, 3.5 or Pathfinder.

A lot of people who have been discussing the pro's and con's of the various schools seem to be more about how to fix the other schools, when I would contend that it's conjuration that's broken.

Firstly, it usually ignores spell resistance. Secondly, it allows you to summon in creatures to do your work for you and then cast spells for you, often at reduced or eliminated cost.

If I were to try to 'fix' things a bit, I would probably start by stating that it's less about making new stuff as it was about emulating it. So that whatever was summoned or by conjuration would be inherently magical and thus subject to Spell Resistance, dispel magic, anti-magic and so forth. Except for the highest tiers of magic. (Gate should probably work as written, teleport should too, but it should be higher level, stuff that's just about shifting your own stuff around in general should stay the same)

If you summon monster IX, you're not actually pulling in that monster from somewhere else, you're just using your magic to create what seems to be one. It acts in all ways like a monster of that type would, but it would not have a specific personality beyond what you endow it and it wouldn't have spellcasting or spell-like abilities of it's own, unless those are crucial to it's basic nature (a displacer beasts displacement, for instance)

With stuff like planar binding and gate, you should be able to get 'true' version s of the creatures, but it should be considerably harder to make them go along with what you want. In part this should probably be done by eliminating the various stackable bonuses to diplomacy and caster level, or just clarifying that you can only benefit from your base caster level and no magical bonuses to diplomacy for the duration or something, rather than go over everything case by case. Those creatures would act as their alignments and personalities dictate, but would be heavily bound by the summoning spell in that they would return to their point of origin when it expires (except for gate) and they would not be able to use their own powers to summon more creatures (though if you had more instances of the spell prepared, you could summon essential aids for them)

Thoughts?

[BWR]

Ideas I have toyed with:

1. Go back to the 2e idea one spell per creature type. No more one-size-fits-all SM/SNA. You want to summon an earth elemental, you have Summon Earth Elemental I-VI. Want an air elemental? Prepare Summon Air Elemental

2. You get xp for summoned creatures. However, if you summon a creature, you split xp gained with it as well.

[The Trickster]

My group usually just plays with the "if you haven't seen it yet, you can't summon it" rule. Seems to solve a lot of issues with the school (not all, but a few).

[Aasimar]

So, if I did all this, including the 'only summon things you've seen (not just able to make a knowledge check to know exists)' and 'when you summon a true creature via planar binding or gate, you share XP with them'

Would that make Conjuration weaker than the other schools? About as powerful? Or would it still be the most powerful one?

[Aasimar]

Addendum. Shouldn't summoned creatures also get a save vs. being summoned?

[Fax Celestis]

What you have described is how summoning already works. Summoning is not calling.

[Aasimar]

Ok, that solves that then.

The way I described it though, SR would apply to stuff like acid arrow, are you sure we're talking about the same thing?

[Fax Celestis]

Conjuration has a lot of aspects.

The ones we're talking about right now are Creation, Calling, and Summoning.


Conjuration

Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

Calling
A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.

Creation
A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above).If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

Healing
Certain divine conjurations heal creatures or even bring them back to life.

Summoning
A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

Teleportation
A teleportation spell transports one or more creatures or objects a great distance. The most powerful of these spells can cross planar boundaries. Unlike summoning spells, the transportation is (unless otherwise noted) one-way and not dispellable.

Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.

Acid Arrow: Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]

The spell physically creates acid, and then magically propels it at a target. This is different from Evocation, which brings energy into being, not a physical object.

[Aasimar]

Conjuration has a lot of aspects.

The ones we're talking about right now are Creation, Calling, and Summoning.



Acid Arrow: Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]

The spell physically creates acid, and then magically propels it at a target. This is different from Evocation, which brings energy into being, not a physical object.

I know....my idea involves changing that.

That's like, the whole point of my question.

[Dragonborn]

Not a bad idea, but that would actually make Acid Arrow, Orbs, and similar spells Evocation rather than Conjuration.

[Deophaun]

I know....my idea involves changing that.

That's like, the whole point of my question.
You talk about summoning ignoring SR... not creation.

Anyway, are you going to up the damage, then? And then we have to ask: what is the point of these conjuration spells if their main feature is removed?

Conjuration isn't broken because it has spells that ignore SR (SR and AMFs in general are just bad mechanics patching bad design). It's powerful because teleport, glitterdust, summon monster, solid fog, planar binding, gate. That it has SR:No DPS spells is icing on the cake, but that's not something that is at risk of breaking the game. (Your best mailman build isn't going to do near the damage of the best spirit lion totem leap attacking barbarian, for example)

[TuggyNE]

I know....my idea involves changing that.

That's like, the whole point of my question.

The idea that magic is literally incapable of in any way altering, creating, or conveying non-magical objects or creatures for practical use is one that is quite hard to accept for many. And acid creation is one of the most sensible examples of that. (Fabricate and the calling spells are better, but not by much. And then there's teleport, cure light wounds, etc.)

[Brookshw]

And here I was hoping someone was making a character concept based on "I'm sick of these wizards leaving all these orbs everywhere. I'm going to make a thrower designed to pick them up, track down the wizard and start throwing them back at them". Hootsie the owlbear does not approve of orb littering.

[Aasimar]

Not a bad idea, but that would actually make Acid Arrow, Orbs, and similar spells Evocation rather than Conjuration.

I don't think that would necessarily be a bad thing, maybe make Evocation less of a 'wait, what does it have that the others don't?'-school.


You talk about summoning ignoring SR... not creation.


I was talking about the entire school.



Anyway, are you going to up the damage, then? And then we have to ask: what is the point of these conjuration spells if their main feature is removed?


I would not. They might get moved over to evocation, or left like they are. Acid arrow's main draw is the ongoing damage to disrupt spellcasters anyway, not it's pure damage output.



Conjuration isn't broken because it has spells that ignore SR (SR and AMFs in general are just bad mechanics patching bad design). It's powerful because teleport, glitterdust, summon monster, solid fog, planar binding, gate. That it has SR:No DPS spells is icing on the cake, but that's not something that is at risk of breaking the game. (Your best mailman build isn't going to do near the damage of the best spirit lion totem leap attacking barbarian, for example)

I'm not looking to nerf it into oblivion, just put it closer to the other schools. If what you're saying is true, then I can implement my changes without ruining the school, making it a pretty good idea.

I think we can all agree conjuration can do with less icing, at the very least.


The idea that magic is literally incapable of in any way altering, creating, or conveying non-magical objects or creatures for practical use is one that is quite hard to accept for many. And acid creation is one of the most sensible examples of that. (Fabricate and the calling spells are better, but not by much. And then there's teleport, cure light wounds, etc.)

It would be able to create matter, that is for all intents and purposes matter, except that on some fundamental level it is still 'magical' matter, making it dispellable in some cases maybe, but at least SR and Anti-magic vulnerable.

You can create a wall of iron, but if you melt it down to make weapons for your army, eventually, some of your soldiers will have their swords dispelled...that sort of thing.

[Deophaun]

I think we can all agree conjuration can do with less icing, at the very least.
The problem is that, in many instances, instantaneous conjurations allow players running wizards to play the game, instead of pretending to play the game by ineffectually shooting crossbows. As I said, SR and AMFs are bad mechanics to patch bad game design.

So, I will ask you: are you going to remove things with magic immunity and AMFs? If not, don't touch instantaneous conjurations. That simple.

[Fax Celestis]

I know....my idea involves changing that.

That's like, the whole point of my question.

If that's your suggestion, fine, but that's not what you said. Summoning is a very specific subset of Conjuration magic, of which acid arrow and other Creation spells are not part of.

[eggynack]

The problem is that, in many instances, instantaneous conjurations allow players running wizards to play the game, instead of pretending to play the game by ineffectually shooting crossbows. As I said, SR and AMFs are bad mechanics to patch bad game design.

So, I will ask you: are you going to remove things with magic immunity and AMFs? If not, don't touch instantaneous conjurations. That simple.
Why? Lots of things in the game have defenses ranging from good to perfect. I don't know why magic should be any different.

Edit:
If that's your suggestion, fine, but that's not what you said. Summoning is a very specific subset of Conjuration magic, of which acid arrow and other Creation spells are not part of.
I don't know where you're getting that impression Aasimar said, "it's conjuration that's broken. Firstly, it usually ignores spell resistance." The "it" there is clearly referring to conjuration as a whole, rather than to just summoning. Summoning was being listed as an entirely different issue.

Double edit: I think I see the issue. It said, "Whatever was summoned or by conjuration would be inherently magical and thus subject to spell resistance." I'm not exactly sure why summoning needs to be listed at all in that case, as it's just a subset of conjuration, but there ya go I guess. It's an odd thing, certainly.

[Deophaun]

Why? Lots of things in the game have defenses ranging from good to perfect. I don't know why magic should be any different.
The fact that bad game design exists in one instance is not grounds for bad game design existing in others.

[Fax Celestis]

The fact that bad game design exists in one instance is not grounds for bad game design existing in others.

So spells should just work all of the time?

Come on. Don't bring up a problem without offering a solution. Right now, you just sound like you're saying "Spell Resistance is a terrible problem but I don't give enough of a damn in order to actually proffer a solution!"

[eggynack]

Y'know, I've been thinking for a bit about a revised SR system that works the same as AC does. Everyone starts with 10, which can be improved by some sort of magical armor, and casters would get something approximating an attack roll. There're a lot of things that would make that an imperfect solution, mostly the same kinda stuff that screws with SR now, but there're ways around some of the issues. I dunno if saves would stick around as a roll used against the majority of spells, though there're spells where they'd probably still be used. It's an idea with a lot of blank space, but it seems decent.

[Aasimar]

Some creatures have nigh unhittable AC or permanent etherialness or a number of things making them immune (effectively or actually) from other characters. I don't think the occasional magic immune creature is out of bounds.

A wizard faced with such a creature could still boost his allies or use indirect attacks (shaping the ground under the creature, use telekinesis to throw a big rock, charm or dominate another monster into attacking it) or he could use his magic to escape.

Sometimes the fighter and the rogue must take a step back and recognize that the wizard or sorcerer is the best equipped to handle a given situation. I don't think it's unfair that very occasionally, this will be reversed.

Further, it's only conjuration that currently gets a free pass on situations like these. The Enchanter, Transmuter or Evoker will be constantly faced with situations like this.

I'm not trying to destroy conjuration, I'm trying to make it so that picking it as a favored school will be less 'every one does it unless they have a specific flavor reason not to, or if they're stupid' and picking it as a banned school won't be quite so much 'ok, you are stupid, aren't you?'

Putting it on the same level as the other schools, or at least close enough that it won't be so big an issue if people choose to forgo it's somewhat smaller advantages is the goal of my suggestions.

[Deophaun]

So spells should just work all of the time?
If by "all of the time" you mean through attack rolls and saving throws, yes. Is that so shocking?

Come on. Don't bring up a problem without offering a solution. Right now, you just sound like you're saying "Spell Resistance is a terrible problem but I don't give enough of a damn in order to actually proffer a solution!"
The fact that there are several, non-SoD direct damage spells that bypass SR is a solution. Getting rid of SR all together is another. You will find that the game does just fine under the latter.

Some creatures have nigh unhittable AC or permanent etherialness or a number of things making them immune (effectively or actually) from other characters. I don't think the occasional magic immune creature is out of bounds.
Again, bad design in one area does not justify bad design in another.

[Fax Celestis]

If by "all of the time" you mean through attack rolls and saving throws, yes. Is that so shocking?

Yes, because there are many spells that use neither.

Spell resistance is concealment for casters.

[Aasimar]

So, what I'm taking away from this discussion, really, is that my proposed changes would do exactly what I want them to, but there are some people who feel that I am wrong to want to.

[TuggyNE]

Some creatures have nigh unhittable AC or permanent etherialness or a number of things making them immune (effectively or actually) from other characters. I don't think the occasional magic immune creature is out of bounds.

A wizard faced with such a creature could still boost his allies or use indirect attacks (shaping the ground under the creature, use telekinesis to throw a big rock, charm or dominate another monster into attacking it) or he could use his magic to escape.

So turning air into acid around the creature should work, right? Oops, that's Conjuration. Guess that SR:No was wrong!


Sometimes the fighter and the rogue must take a step back and recognize that the wizard or sorcerer is the best equipped to handle a given situation. I don't think it's unfair that very occasionally, this will be reversed.

The goal here isn't unfair, no. The chosen method might not be the best at accomplishing that goal, though, and may introduce other complications and inconsistencies.


Further, it's only conjuration that currently gets a free pass on situations like these. The Enchanter, Transmuter or Evoker will be constantly faced with situations like this.

Enchanters try to solve this by "preloading" with dominated minions; evokers get e.g. wall of force, earthquake; transmuters get telekinesis and polymorph.


I'm not trying to destroy conjuration, I'm trying to make it so that picking it as a favored school will be less 'every one does it unless they have a specific flavor reason not to, or if they're stupid' and picking it as a banned school won't be quite so much 'ok, you are stupid, aren't you?'

Putting it on the same level as the other schools, or at least close enough that it won't be so big an issue if people choose to forgo it's somewhat smaller advantages is the goal of my suggestions.

There's no fear of destroying Conjuration. But creating questionable fluff implications in the name of balance is not my preferred solution.


So, what I'm taking away from this discussion, really, is that my proposed changes would do exactly what I want them to, but there are some people who feel that I am wrong to want to.

Not exactly. If your goal is "Fix Conjuration so it can't ignore SR anymore", then yes, I'd disagree with that (and also disagree that these changes necessarily quite do the job there; you can still summon creatures that wield weapons you give them, right? or throw rocks? or use telekinesis?). If, instead, your goal is "Fix Conjuration so it's no longer such an automatically super-awesome school", well, I'd agree with that.

[Aasimar]

How is turning air into acid not transmutation?

Thanks for the input, I'm aware it's not a perfect idea, or even a perfect patch.

But still, I think this or something like it would get us back closer to the design intent of magical schools being a choice and not an obvious false choice where one is clearly miles above the others.

[Fax Celestis]

How is turning air into acid not transmutation?
It is. Creating acid from nothing is conjuration. Creating energy from nothing is evocation.

[TuggyNE]

How is turning air into acid not transmutation?

Sorry, my terms were a bit imprecise. I was referring to acid fog, which fills an area with highly acidic vapors. It's Conjuration and SR:No, and I think for good reason.

By the way, Transmutation is generally considered either the second-strongest school or, at high levels, often the strongest, so giving it free rein is not all that much better than Conjuration.

[eggynack]

By the way, Transmutation is generally considered either the second-strongest school or, at high levels, often the strongest, so giving it free rein is not all that much better than Conjuration.
Screw that. We should just move all the conjuration effects to transmutation. That'd be ultra-balanced. Summoning? Now it's turning blocks of wood into monsters. Teleportation? Now you're turning a person who is here into a person who is somewhere else. Fogs? You're turning the air into fog (Sorry. Some of these are going to necessarily make accidental sense). Minor creation? Turning stuff into more stuff. One big super-school is the way to go.

[Keneth]

I moved healing spells from conjuration to necromancy. I moved teleportation spells from conjuration to universal. I nerfed a lot of the conjuration spells, although they're not that problematic in Pathfinder. I am currently thinking of changing the summoning spells so that they follow a similar pattern as Pathfinder's polymorph spells—You get generic stats for all monsters and a specific subset of extraordinary and supernatural abilities that the monsters may or may not possess. Calling and creation spells are still on my list of things to balance.

I don't think conjuration spells should be SR: Yes, but I do think that a lot of the spells are in the wrong school. Orb spells in 3.5, with the exception of orb of acid, should all be evocation spells for instance. The whole "this fire is totally conjured from another plane" argument is quite frankly ridiculous, and it gets even more so with orb of force.