Help for a slightly disabled Ranger

[Rumo]

The story of my first D&D evening: A friend started rolling stats for her fighter character. Our rules: 2D6+6 rolled 7 times, 6 of these results to be chosen where we wanted them, 1 as a mulligan. Her results:

17
17
16
15
14
13
13

(Yes, I know it's a most pitiful pity to make a fighter out of these.)

Then came my wife, rolling:

13
12
11
11
11
10
9

And yes, girl1's mulligan was as good as girl2's single one best roll.

She chose to become an Elvish Ranger, finishing character creation with ...

STR 11
DEX 15
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 11
CHA 11

... choosing the Long Bow road.

After having received so much valuable input on my Wizard in the neighbouring thread, my hope is to find some advice for her as well. Bad stats, not the best class, and she's not the power gamer type, who would sell the character's kidneys for some more effectiveness. What feats can she choose and what prestige classes make sense, to get the best out of her while keeping the animal+nature loving bowelf theme?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Then came my wife, rolling:

13
12
11
11
11
10
9

She gets to reroll those, see PHB page 8:

REROLLING
If your scores are too low, you may scrap them and roll all six scores
again. Your scores are considered too low if the sum of your
modifiers (before adjustments because of race) is 0 or lower, or if
your highest score is 13 or lower.

[Rumo]

She gets to reroll those, see PHB page 8:

Thanks, good to know! I don't have this book, is rolling 7 stats and dropping 1 of them an official rule or a house rule? In second case the DM might argue that we chose to play with this particular mulligan and have to live with the consequences.

[Telonius]

Thanks, good to know! I don't have this book, is rolling 7 stats and dropping 1 of them an official rule or a house rule? In second case the DM might argue that we chose to play with this particular mulligan and have to live with the consequences.

The method listed in the PHB is 4d6 drop 1, six times, no mulligans, complete reroll if you have the situations B_F listed.

[Rumo]

Okay, similar but not exactly the same. Anyway, if the rules consider a character with no bonus above +1 as a case of hardship, it should be possible to convince the DM.

[Rumo]

New stats:

16
16
15
14
13
13

I'm wondering how to distribute them best. Dexterity 18 is clear. The rest isn't. STR for the damage bonus, Constitution for the hit points, INT for the skill points ...? Even Wisdom isn't really irrelevant, thanks to its two Cure Light Wounds instead of one at lvl 6, and the group having no other healer than potions.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

New stats:

16
16
15
14
13
13

I'm wondering how to distribute them best. Dexterity 18 is clear. The rest isn't. STR for the damage bonus, Constitution for the hit points, INT for the skill points ...? Even Wisdom isn't really irrelevant, thanks to its two Cure Light Wounds instead of one at lvl 6, and the group having no other healer than potions.

Use either Wood Elf (Monster Manual, Str +2, Dex +2, Con -2, Int -2) or Snow Elf (Frostburn, Dex +2, Cha -2). Probably Str 15, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 13.

Get a (few) Wand of Cure Light Wounds, it's 15 gp per 1d8+1 hp, and anyone with that spell on their class spell list, including a 1st level Ranger, can use it. Save the potions for emergencies and healing the Ranger if she goes below 0, then once she's conscious she can use the wand.

[Tim Proctor]

Here is a standard build for an Elvish Ranger/Archer

{table=head]Level | Class | HD | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Skills | Feats | Special | Notes:
1 | Ranger | d8 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 6 | Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow) | Arcane Hunter (CM, p 32), Urban Tracking Urban Ranger (UA, p 55), Spiritual Connection (CC, p 50) | Elf
2 | Ranger | d8 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 6 | | Combat style (Archery) |
3 | Ranger | d8 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 6 | Point Blank Shot | Endurance |
4 | Ranger | d8 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 1 | 6 | | |
5 | Ranger | d8 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 1 | 6 | | 2nd favored enemy |
6 | Ranger | d8 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 2 | 6 | Precise Shot | Improved combat style - Archery |
7 | Arcane Archer | d8 | 7 | 7 | 7 | 2 | 4 | | Enhance Arrow +1 |
8 | Arcane Archer | d8 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 2 | 4 | | Imbue Arrow |
9 | Arcane Archer | d8 | 9 | 8 | 8 | 3 | 4 | Far Shot | Enhance Arrow +2 |
10 | Arcane Archer | d8 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 3 | 4 | | Seeker Arrow |
11 | Arcane Archer | d8 | 11 | 9 | 9 | 3 | 4 | | Enhance Arrow +3 |
12 | Arcane Archer | d8 | 12 | 10 | 10 | 4 | 4 | Mountain Warrior | Phase Arrow |
13 | Arcane Archer | d8 | 13 | 10 | 10 | 4 | 4 | | Enhance Arrow +4 |
14 | Arcane Archer | d8 | 14 | 11 | 11 | 4 | 4 | | Hail of Arrows |
15 | Arcane Archer | d8 | 15 | 11 | 11 | 5 | 4 | Improved Rapid Shot | Enhanse Arrow +5 |
16 | Arcane Archer | d8 | 16 | 12 | 12 | 5 | 4 | | Arrow of Death | NEED: Skills: Climb 10 ranks , Spot 5 ranks , Survival 5 ranks
17 | Cragtop Archer (Races of Stone variant, p. 101) | d8 | 17 | 14 | 14 | 5 | 4 | | Adept climber, farsight |
18 | Cragtop Archer | d8 | 18 | 15 | 15 | 5 | 4 | Greater Manyshot | Strike from above |
19 | Cragtop Archer | d8 | 19 | 15 | 15 | 6 | 4 | | Arcing shot |
20 | Cragtop Archer | d8 | 20 | 16 | 16 | 6 | 4 | | Horizon shot | [/table]

Nothing game breaking about it, nothing OP or super busted, straight forward.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Here is a standard build for an Elvish Ranger/Archer

Nothing game breaking about it, nothing OP or super busted, straight forward.

That doesn't even meet the arcane spellcasting prerequisite for Arcane Archer, plus Arcane Archer is one of the worst prestige classes ever printed.

If going for an archer, make the character a Scout 4/ Ranger 16 (not necessarily in that order) and get the feats Swift Hunter in Complete Scoundrel and Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot).

[Rumo]

Thanks for the advice. The distribution of stats that you suggested was also my favourite.

I don't know about the objective qualities of the Arcane Archer, but it seems to me that it doesn't go so well with the classical Ranger theme. Scout looks interesting, though if my understanding is correct, the bonus damage is not applicable when using Rapid Shot. And her intention was to go for Improved Rapid Shot at some point.

[ArcturusV]

If your wife is going Archer:

One thing I'd seriously recommend? Pick up the feat Ancestral Relic at level 3 (Presuming you are good aligned). Unless your DM is really nice that's the only way that I know of to get some effects that Archers really need... like the Power Shot off Hank's Energy Bow (You can make the Relic into that bow, heck, even an improved version of that bow as you gain in levels).

Other than that? It's a matter of taste on your wife's part on how she wants to go. If you put one of the higher stats in Charisma (I know, blasphemy!), and are picking up Ancestral Relic anyway? I like Anointed Knight for Archers. Note that you have to at least go Ranger 4 (Or splash some other class) in order to have Craft: Alchemy useable, as Craft: Alchemy is required to make the Knight's special abilities... and Craft: Alchemy has that little caveat that is kinda hidden in it's rules text of "Must be able to cast spells to use".

So I might go something like Ranger 4, Paladin 2 (Yes, Paladin 2 for reasons of Saving Bonuses among other things), into Anointed Knight.

Not going to be horribly game breaking. But my experience with Anointed Knight is that you're not going to really regret it either, it's simple (Just new powers at level up) and fun.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Thanks for the advice. The distribution of stats that you suggested was also my favourite.

I don't know about the objective qualities of the Arcane Archer, but it seems to me that it doesn't go so well with the classical Ranger theme. Scout looks interesting, though if my understanding is correct, the bonus damage is not applicable when using Rapid Shot. And her intention was to go for Improved Rapid Shot at some point.

You have to move to activate Skirmish, and you can't normally move and full attack. You can move and use Greater Manyshot, and skirmish damage applies to each shot.

You could also dip a single level of Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), trade the bonus Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion (CC), get Travel Devotion instead of the Travel domain (CC), and get the Elf domain (SC). You can activate Travel Devotion to move up to your base land speed as a swift action and still get to full attack in the same round. Knowledge Devotion guarantees you at least +1 attack and damage per hit if you put at least one rank in each knowledge skill that identifies a creature type (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religion, Planes), and you can get the Collector of Stories skill trick in Complete Scoundrel to get a +5 to one of those checks once per encounter. Plus a level of Cleric allows you to freely use wands of any Cleric spells, so get a Wand of Lesser Vigor (SC) and it heals 11 hp per 15 gp charge.

[Rumo]

@ ArcturusV: The feat you recommend looks interesting, but I can imagine her reaction to this, or some of Biffoniacus' no doubt sensible suggestions:

:haley: : "My Arthuriel wants nothing to do with that religious BS."

Besides, it seems to me that while her Ranger career provides her with many useful special feats, regarding to the selection of her archery feats she is limited to the minimum number. Precise shot now at 3, and then only every 3 levels the long list of:
Knowledge Devotion
Weapon Focus Long Bow
Multishot
Rapidshot
Improved Rapidshot

Looks to me like rather slow progress, or am I missing anything?

Biffoniacus_Furiou:
Yes, Knowledge Devotion seems quite impressive to me, and is very high on the priority list for future feats. In the unlikely case that she might find something like that Cloistered Cleric agreeable, how does that work, trade a bonus knowledge domain for a feat? Sounds like an extremely good deal to me, but can't find any other internet sources that support it.

[Dragonborn]

Yes, Knowledge Devotion seems quite impressive to me, and is very high on the priority list for future feats. In the unlikely case that she might find something like that Cloistered Cleric agreeable, how does that work, trade a bonus knowledge domain for a feat? Sounds like an extremely good deal to me, but can't find any other internet sources that support it.

It's in the rules for devotion feats (Complete Champion pg.53), you can trade a domain in for the corresponding devotion feat. The bonus Knowledge domain is from Cloistered Cleric. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)

[Kennisiou]

It's worth noting that rangers get rapid shot for free at level 2 from combat style and many shot for free at level 6. She won't have to take those feats from level progression if she continues levelling as ranger at least that long, so that frees her up to take other feats. She also gets improved precise shot at level 11. If she levels that much in ranger then the only archery feats from she'll need to take through level progression (assuming she wants them) are:

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Far Shot
Greater Many Shot
Improved Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus (longbow) -- (worth considering not taking, since weapon focus feats tend to fall off a bit at later levels)


So that's... 6 feats. It's also worth noting that she can splash a level or two in fighter to pick up any of the feats I just listed as a bonus feat, although it will mean that she has fewer levels to work with for prestige and will have to deal with EXP penalties unless she's a wood-elf so her favored class is ranger (although she already will have that problem if she takes the one level of cleric, so...). Oh, also, remember that if she takes the cloistered cleric level she wouldn't have to actually take the feats for knowledge devotion, travel devotion or elf devotion -- she'd just have access to them instead of being able to access those domains as a cleric.

Also, I'm honestly not sure if the scout + cloistered cleric + ranger thing is necessary. Rapid shot is nice, but skirmish + manyshot is honestly a lot better and she doesn't need to take a level in CC to do that. Also, the level in CC would be for travel devotion (and also knowledge devotion), and it would only let her move as a swift action for one minute once a day, meaning she gets to move 10 or more feet to activate skirmish and then full attack for skirmish damage on every one of her full attack + rapid shot attacks for one minute of one encounter a day. Going scout + ranger is a great idea, don't get me wrong, since she can take the "swift hunter" feat which lets her add her Ranger and Scout levels together to determine skirmish damage/AC progression as well as Ranger Favored Enemy progression, I'm just not sure the 1 level of Cloistered Cleric is worth taking the EXP penalties to be able to rapid shot + skirmish once a day.

But then again, maybe it is. I gotta be honest the moment I typed that part about getting skirmish damage on every attack for one minute of an encounter... She may not be stand-out every encounter, but in the tough ones when she activates travel she'll be making more attacks with better odds to hit than she would through manyshot, and they'll all still be getting the skirmish damage as well as the bonuses from successful knowledge devotion checks. Even outside of that one daily encounter once she gets greater manyshot she'll still be manyshotting with skirmish damage and potential knowledge devotion damage (not to mention potential favored enemy damage), meaning each hit can hit really, really hard (without greater manyshot skirmish bonus applies only once, although I believe favored enemy and knowledge devotion still apply every hit).

But yeah, all of these changes would still require multiple levels in ranger (at least 6 for free many shot) and Scout (at least 3 levels to qualify for Swift Hunter) as well as the one cloistered cleric level, meaning the build wouldn't really go live until level 10.

Edit: if you go without cloistered cleric to get the free knowledge and travel devotions, you can still take them as feats as long as you meet the prerequisites. Travel Devotion is most important for doing skirmisher stuff and would be a good way to avoid taking potential EXP penalties while still doing ranger/skirmisher tricks.

[juicycaboose]

Also, the level in CC would be for travel devotion (and also knowledge devotion), and it would only let her move as a swift action for one minute once a day, meaning she gets to move 10 or more feet to activate skirmish and then full attack for skirmish damage on every one of her full attack + rapid shot attacks for one minute of one encounter a day.


If she has a level in cloistered cleric then she has a turn undead pool (4 per day if she has charisma 13) and Travel Devotion like all the other devotion feats lets you spend turn attempts to fuel the feat further, you can spend 2 turn attempts to activate the feat again and get another minute of swift moving, so with charisma 13 she would have 3 uses of travel devotion total per day.

[Kennisiou]

If she has a level in cloistered cleric then she has a turn undead pool (4 per day if she has charisma 13) and Travel Devotion like all the other devotion feats lets you spend turn attempts to fuel the feat further, you can spend 2 turn attempts to activate the feat again and get another minute of swift moving, so with charisma 13 she would have 3 uses of travel devotion total per day.

Thanks for the catch, I totally missed that!

Also, am I the only one who finds it odd that in optimized play you almost never wind up using turning attempts to actually turn? They're like some weird divine currency that you use to fuel your special powers.

[TuggyNE]

Thanks for the catch, I totally missed that!

Also, am I the only one who finds it odd that in optimized play you almost never wind up using turning attempts to actually turn? They're like some weird divine currency that you use to fuel your special powers.

It's a bit odd and annoying, yes. I've got a project I've been meaning to get back to to fix up TU for actual turning. Then things like DMM and perhaps certain devotions can be more readily nerfed or banned without leaving TU in oblivion.

[Greenish]

:haley: : "My Arthuriel wants nothing to do with that religious BS."Should've thought of that before going for a divine caster class, no? :smalltongue:

[ArcturusV]

Note that Paladin isn't really religious either. Paladin is a crusader. Divinely powered, sure. But not like they have to go and fiddle with their rosaries and convert the heathens, burn offerings to Zeus, etc, every day. Or at all really. Unless you're in Forgotten Realms I suppose. Devotion to do Right is more than enough to give them their power without being into "Hokey superstitions and ancient religions".

[Rumo]

It's worth noting that rangers get rapid shot for free at level 2 from combat style and many shot for free at level 6. She won't have to take those feats from level progression if she continues levelling as ranger at least that long, so that frees her up to take other feats.

Rapid Shot (on that list) was a mistake on my part, she's using it already. It fact, it saved all of our lifes recently. But I didn't know about the others coming for free. Thanks for the information, that changes a lot!



Also, I'm honestly not sure if the scout + cloistered cleric + ranger thing is necessary. Rapid shot is nice, but skirmish + manyshot is honestly a lot better and she doesn't need to take a level in CC to do that.
I don't exactly understand that part. Is skirmish damage and knowledge devotion damage mutually exclusive?
One more thing I don't understand: The suggested build says, take Scout to level 4. But Scout level 5 seems to double skirmish damage. Even though it's restricted to point blank range, this looks extremely powerful to me. Why not take that one more level? The earlier access to Evasion is a nice bonus, too.

The Cloistered Cleric is still something of a mystery to me. She takes a level. She gains all which comes with Cleric level 1, Level 0-1 spells, except for different skill set and no weapon proficiences and a few extras. Would she gain a BAB? If all answers are yes, this one level investment looks pretty great to me.

[Xerlith]

She does not get BAB, since Cloistered Cleric has 1/2 BAB. But she can use Cleric spells, so she can use, say, wand of Divine Power.
The greatest CCLeric's power is his 3 domains (Free Knowledge Devotion!) and his Turning, which can fuel Travel Devotion.
It is the only way your Wife can full attack with Skirmish damage more than one minute per day. Early on. Because if we're talking about later levels...

How does she look at the Arcane casting?
I'm obliged to point out that there exists the Mystic Ranger variant (Dragon magazine, I think #316) that is quite potent with Sword of the Arcane Order (yes, I intend to open this can of worms) and makes an elf Mystic Ranger 8/Swiftblade10/Arcane Archer 2 quite a potent skirmishing archer.

The downside? If your DM doesn't allow refluffing it (which makes the feat limited to FR only, though), the character must be a member of a quasi-religious organization.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't exactly understand that part. Is skirmish damage and knowledge devotion damage mutually exclusive?
One more thing I don't understand: The suggested build says, take Scout to level 4. But Scout level 4 seems to double skirmish damage. Even though it's restricted to point blank range, this looks extremely powerful to me. Why not take that one more level? The earlier access to Evasion is a nice bonus, too.

The Cloistered Cleric is still something of a mystery to me. She takes a level. She gains all which comes with Cleric level 1, Level 0-1 spells, except for different skill set and no weapon proficiences and a few extras. Would she gain a BAB? If all answers are yes, this one level investment looks pretty great to me.

The feat Swift Hunter in Complete Scoundrel makes your Ranger levels count as Scout levels when determining your Skirmish class feature. You can use Skirmish with Knowledge Devotion, all the bonuses stack. The drawback of Skirmish is that you have to move before attacking, which would usually exclude full attacking. To get around this, you could get the Travel Devotion feat from Complete Champion, which you need a Turn Undead ability to fuel if you want to use it more than 1/day. You could also skirmish on multiple attacks with Greater Manyshot, and not even worry about Travel Devotion or Cleric.

A level of Cloistered Cleric gives you three feats: Point-Blank Shot from the Elf domain, Knowledge Devotion instead of the Knowledge domain per Complete Champion, and Travel Devotion instead of the Travel domain per Complete Champion. It also gives you Turn Undead uses, which you can spend to use Travel Devotion more often than its default 1/day. It won't give you any more base attack bonus, but it does boost your base saves. You can also use that level to get the requisite Spellcraft ranks to take Practiced Spellcaster: Ranger if desired. Plus you can use Wands of Cleric spells, including Lesser Vigor from Spell Compendium. A Wand of a 1st level spell at caster level 1 always costs 15 gp per charge (750 gp fully charged at 50 charges). A Wand of Cure Light Wounds heals 1d8+1 hp per charge, a Wand of Lesser Vigor heals 11 hp per charge.

[Scumbaggery]

For some reason, the idea of a crippled Ranger who uses crutches that combine into a greatbow popped into mind.

[Kennisiou]

The feat Swift Hunter in Complete Scoundrel makes your Ranger levels count as Scout levels when determining your Skirmish class feature. You can use Skirmish with Knowledge Devotion, all the bonuses stack. The drawback of Skirmish is that you have to move before attacking, which would usually exclude full attacking. To get around this, you could get the Travel Devotion feat from Complete Champion, which you need a Turn Undead ability to fuel if you want to use it more than 1/day. You could also skirmish on multiple attacks with Greater Manyshot, and not even worry about Travel Devotion or Cleric.

A level of Cloistered Cleric gives you three feats: Point-Blank Shot from the Elf domain, Knowledge Devotion instead of the Knowledge domain per Complete Champion, and Travel Devotion instead of the Travel domain per Complete Champion. It also gives you Turn Undead uses, which you can spend to use Travel Devotion more often than its default 1/day. It won't give you any more base attack bonus, but it does boost your base saves. You can also use that level to get the requisite Spellcraft ranks to take Practiced Spellcaster: Ranger if desired. Plus you can use Wands of Cleric spells, including Lesser Vigor from Spell Compendium. A Wand of a 1st level spell at caster level 1 always costs 15 gp per charge (750 gp fully charged at 50 charges). A Wand of Cure Light Wounds heals 1d8+1 hp per charge, a Wand of Lesser Vigor heals 11 hp per charge.

Yes, this. This is a very concise explanation of what I was trying to say. Thanks, dude, you're really good at stating this stuff clearly.

Also, it's worth noting that the complete scoundrel feat improves your ranger favored enemy progression as well. This is pretty cool, because some enemies are immune to skirmish damage because their creature type is immune to critical hits and "precision damage," but favored enemy damage will still apply, meaning you can take those creature types as your favored enemy to get more damage against them so you're less high-and-dry when not skirmishing (but let's not go crazy here, it's still mostly going to be, like, +2-+6 damage unless you decide you really hate zombies or something and put all your bonuses on Favored Enemy (undead) progression).