The Iron Druid vs Harry Dresden [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Silver Swift

2013-10-01, 10:38 AM

BRC

2013-10-01, 10:44 AM

Question: I don't know Iron Druid, but how exactly do those Amulets work?

Dresden Files makes a point that while Fire magic magically creates and controls fire, the fire itself and the heat it generates is not magical, so unless the amulets are creating a protective bubble or somthing Fuego should still work on them. If the Amulets specifically only protect the wearer, then it would work against mental magic or Ramirez's disentigration-beams, plus Harry physically flinging them around with kinetic energy, but harry's Fire would still work.

Also, you gave them the swords. Who is wielding said swords? And are we assuming that they have a place in this fight? Or are we just assuming that, for the purposes of this fight, anybody can pick up one of the Swords and use them without fear.

I don't know about Iron Druid, but one thing to remember is Guns. This would be especially relevant if Team Dresden had Murphy, but Harry and Thomas are likely to bring guns to the fight alongside their supernatural abilities (Turn Coat also establishes that Harry taught Molly how to use firearms, though she is never shown using them).

Are we assuming full bloodlust mode on all parties? Can Molly break out her mental magic, because if so that turns her from "Illusionist" to "Drilling holes in your brain with her mind"? How do those Fairy specs work, because if they see through illusions and everybody has a pair then Molly is basically out of this fight (Though I guess the One Woman Rave could still work as a distraction, even if they knew it was an illusion they would still get overloaded by light and sound).

Lord Raziere

2013-10-01, 10:50 AM

this thread makes me sad, because I'd rather have Harry and Atticus join or make a Magical Detectives Club, and then go solve crimes together while having witty banter and annoyed bickering.

Silver Swift

2013-10-01, 10:57 AM

Question: I don't know Iron Druid, but how exactly do those Amulets work?

Dresden Files makes a point that while Fire magic magically creates and controls fire, the fire itself and the heat it generates is not magical, unless the Amulet is creating a bubble of protection or something.

It isn't specified, they prevent direct magic from working on the user, but what exactly constitutes direct magic seems to differ from case to case. The amulets, or at least Atticus' amulet, which is a stronger version than the others have, do work against magical fire since we see him take a fireball to the face and shrug it of.

Also, you gave them the swords. Who is wielding said swords? And are we assuming that they have a place in this fight? Or are we just assuming that, for the purposes of this fight, anybody can pick up one of the Swords and use them.

I thought anyone could wield the swords (unless your especially evil, like the denarians) they just become more powerful with the right wielder. As to who would wield them, that's actually a good point, with the current set up (I had a bunch of different ones in mind before I got to this one), only Thomas is really suited for swordplay, so maybe him and Harry?

For the purpose of this fight no-one triggers the "Killing an innocent with a sword destroys the sword" rule.

Edit:

I don't know about Iron Druid, but one thing to remember is Guns. This would be especially relevant if Team Dresden had Murphy, but Harry and Thomas are likely to bring guns to the fight alongside their supernatural abilities (Turn Coat also establishes that Harry taught Molly how to use firearms, though she is never shown using them).

The Iron Druid world has guns and the supernatural world is far more aware of them than in the Dresdenverse, though I'm not sure if anyone on their team has any fire arms proficiency. They aren't immune to gunfire either, though most of them are very mobile so it's going to be hard to hit them.

Are we assuming full bloodlust mode on all parties? Can Molly break out her mental magic, because if so that turns her from "Illusionist" to "Drilling holes in your brain with her mind"? How do those Fairy specs work, because if they see through illusions and everybody has a pair then Molly is basically out of this fight (Though I guess the One Woman Rave could still work as a distraction, even if they knew it was an illusion they would still get overloaded by light and sound).

Only Atticus has fairy specs, but he can share their ability with at least Granuille, probably the others too. They're also not actually glasses, it is an amulet that let's you see through illusions, so as long as Atticus can keep it going illusions are not going to be of much help. This hardly disqualifies Molly though, she is specialized in illusions, but she can do other kinds of magic too.

No to full bloodlust mode, Harry and Molly don't break the laws of magic and Atticus and Granuille don't turn people into puddles of goo. Also, Thomas counts as alive for the purpose of being unbound by druids as white court vampires are born rather than turned but neither Hal nor Leif counts as human.

BRC

2013-10-01, 11:14 AM

For the purpose of this fight no-one triggers the "Killing an innocent with a sword destroys the sword" rule.

If I recall it's a little more complicated then that, but we'll just assume that The Swords can function.

For those of you watching at home, The Swords main trick is that they bypass all supernatural protections. Any sort of "The Beast can only be slain by XYZ!" type stuff The Swords automatically meet. The Great Beast Xykthen Can only be slain by a ancient babylonian ritual dagger wielded by a virgin born on a cold october under the full moon...or one of the Swords. Against Faries they're cold iron, against Werewolves they're silver. They are the - in DR/-.

Also, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they also bypass any generic "Magical force-field" type stuff.

They have other capabilities too, but I'm not super sure about them. There are implications that wielding a Sword makes you superhumanly strong/fast/durable, but it's always been talked about like The Knights were just that good at what they do.

I think Mouse (Harry's dog. Specifically a Temple Dog, a scion of a mortal dog and a Foo Spirit, Harry is HIS sidekick) has a similar ability. A wide variety of very scary supernatural beasties have been very scared of Mouse.

Specifically, if you are wearing the Specs do you still percieve the illusions, you just see through them and are aware that they are illusions, or are you unaware of the illusions altogether.

Also, if only one or two of them have the Specs, then Molly can still shut the rest of the team down with the One Woman Rave. Atticus telling his friends "It's an illusion!" won't help when they are being bombarded by the strobing lights of a thousand Daft Punk concerts and 200 decibles of Freddy Mercury.

The Glyphstone

2013-10-01, 11:15 AM

Where in the Chronicles is Atticus for this fight? It's hard to compare the two universes, at least before Changes, because until then they fight on two different levels - Atticus kills two gods in the mortal realm in his first book, and kills at least one more on said god's home plane in the third book. If the power level of the old gods in both settings are anywhere comparable, Harry - as awesome as he is - might be out of his league, particularly since Attticus is nearly magic-proof and well aware of (and carries protection from) mortal weaponry.

Mouse > Oberon, in raw combat ability and probably intelligence

Molly > Granuaile, at least in terms of what extra utility they can provide.

Fragarach+Moraltach > Swords of the Cross, as far as their enchantments go, but that requires the fight go to melee range.

Lief > Thomas, by demonstrated combat prowess.

Billy = Hal, they both seem pretty generic as far as werewolves go.

Bob = Elemental can't really be equated, since Bob has almost nothing to contribute in a scrap (Evil Bob would, but he's not here), but he's an amazing source of information.

BRC

2013-10-01, 11:42 AM

Bob = Elemental can't really be equated, since Bob has almost nothing to contribute in a scrap (Evil Bob would, but he's not here), but he's an amazing source of information.

If we're including Bob in this fight at all, we have to give him knowledge of Iron Druidverse magic and the like. Otherwise he contributes nothing. So if Atticus and Co have any special weaknesses, Team Dresden will learn about them as fast as Bob can shout. IIRC a Sword had no trouble going through a metal door, so unless Atticus is wearing full plate Thomas+Sword is probably Team Dresden's best bet at taking him down if, and this is a big IF, Thomas can get close enough.

Remember, the Sword bypasses magical protections, so if Thomas gets close enough it dosn't matter how many amulets Atticus has on, he will get decapitated.

Zeb

2013-10-01, 11:45 AM

A pretty even matchup.

Is any knowledge retained between each fight?

Assuming each one squares off vs their opposite:

Harry vs Atticus: Chicago goes to Harry the other 2 go to Atticus, environment plus speed bindings, charms, Iron Amulet and weapons favor the iron druid.

Molly over Granuaile barring interference from others.

Mouse over Oberon, alas the Irish wolf hounds lack of powers other than a keen wit and thus has a hard time physically beating that which can be hit by a car and walk away survive.

Bob vs Local elemental, the local elemental is a non presence in Chicago but given the scope of their powers in the other two locations we can call a win over Bob given his lack of a corporeal form.

Hal over Billy I'm giving it to the lycan with more experience.

Lief over Tomas- seems to be a power disparity in the vampires and as above experience wins (i'm training to take down a god, your training to be a hairstylist?)

Overall Iron druid team is better trained to use their swords. So unless one person gets one and who they are facing doesn't we cant count on them to swing any fights.

2.33 wins Dresden, 3.66 wins Iron Druid, In individual fights.

Team Dresden's use of firearms gives them and advantage if they get the drop on the druids. They also have a better teamwork/bond than Iron druid side.

The teamwork and not 1v1 nature of the contest brings it back around to a more even fight.

Might do a round robin style breakdown later but currently I would call it Iron druid team 61% of the time.

BRC

2013-10-01, 11:52 AM

Remember that in Changes Harry and Co. (With more backup mind you) went up against the Lords of the Outer Night, who were apparently each on an equal power level with Domer Vadderung Odin.

Mind you Team Dresden had way more backup there (The handmaiden of a fairy queen, Karrin "Killed a troll with a chainsaw" murphy who was wielding a Sword, Susan, Sanya (With a third Sword), a half dozen powerful wizards (including the Blackstaff), Domer Vadderung, and an flock of bird ninjas, plus Harry had the Winter Knight mantle), but the Lords also had a army, and there were Twelve of them.

Of course the killing blow was due to special circumstance rather than overpowering the Lords, but still Team Dresden may not be as outpowered as you might think.

CarpeGuitarrem

2013-10-01, 12:12 PM

Well, Harry does tend to win by a very particular application of previously-disclosed plot points. So he's big on exploiting weaknesses.

BRC

2013-10-01, 12:12 PM

Well, Harry does tend to win by a very particular application of previously-disclosed plot points. So he's big on exploiting weaknesses.

That or swarms of faries with boxcutters. Those work too.

The Glyphstone

2013-10-01, 12:45 PM

If we're including Bob in this fight at all, we have to give him knowledge of Iron Druidverse magic and the like. Otherwise he contributes nothing. So if Atticus and Co have any special weaknesses, Team Dresden will learn about them as fast as Bob can shout. IIRC a Sword had no trouble going through a metal door, so unless Atticus is wearing full plate Thomas+Sword is probably Team Dresden's best bet at taking him down if, and this is a big IF, Thomas can get close enough.

Remember, the Sword bypasses magical protections, so if Thomas gets close enough it dosn't matter how many amulets Atticus has on, he will get decapitated.

Technically, Bob could possess Mister. The wrath of a thirty-pound cat scorned can be a terrible thing to face.:smallbiggrin:

Thomas has to beat Atticus in a swordfight before he can decapitate him, and Atticus has been swordfighting since the Roman Empire - so while it's definitely one of their better opportunities, it's still very risky when Atticus's own sword either A) cuts through any defenses, mundane or supernatural, or B) slays instantly with even the slightest bit of skin contact.

GloatingSwine

2013-10-01, 12:53 PM

Also, you gave them the swords. Who is wielding said swords? And are we assuming that they have a place in this fight? Or are we just assuming that, for the purposes of this fight, anybody can pick up one of the Swords and use them without fear.

No-one, they couldn't be used for a fight like this and still be what they are.

If they're not being used by the right person, for the right task, they're just an ordinary sword. And if they are used for reasons contrary to their purpose (Not just "killing an innocent", Harry used Amoraccius to try and welch on a deal he made with Leanansidhe, and that was enough to make it vulnerable) then they become vulnerable and can be unmade.

Tavar

2013-10-01, 07:52 PM

I question a couple points of validity for this. The combatants aren't really all that related in several cases(Mouse is some sort of spirit vs a normal dog, a spirit of intellect vs what appear to be things largely useful for combat, the swords of the Cross can't really be used here effectively). The magic nerf is also a bit annoying, especially since Harry's already nerfed in that regard due to being unable to use it vs Humans.

The whole god-slaying thing is a bit complicated, largely because what a god means/entails seems vastly different between Dresden Files and the Iron Druid Chronicles. I mean, Atticus comes flat out and says that the gods he follows(and the first that he kills) are really only men and women. The others that he kills seem largely the same, though he's helped tremendously by his sword's power.

This is probably a win for the Iron Druid Chronicles, because of the largely un-balanced match up and nerfs.

Lord Raziere

2013-10-01, 08:14 PM

yea, and Atticus himself is 2000 years old and has had a lot of time to build up his defenses. assuming you get through the cold iron amulet, he can regenerate, he is watched over by his goddess of death, he has an iron elemental that he literally feeds faeries to, and he has a sword that kills people in one hit I think.

Harry? as of Cold Days, much of his granted supernatural power is Fae. Atticus's anti-fae defenses are too good. we are kind of comparing an old veteran going up against a young upstart hotshot, the young guy is good, but the old veteran knows it doesn't matter how good your are, it matters what kind of things you've prepared for and the people you know.

so yeah, it is kind of invalid. mostly because we are talking about new blasty wizard type magic going up against old mythic "this spear always hit its target no matter what" type of magic. there isn't much of a comparison.

again, I vote that we instead speculate on what great snarky conversations Harry and Atticus could have together while they kick some gods ass or something after going through whatever dark mystery they find themselves in. probably much more entertaining.

Cheesegear

2013-10-01, 08:25 PM

I vote that we instead speculate on what great snarky conversations Harry and Atticus could have together while they kick some gods ass or something after going through whatever dark mystery they find themselves in. probably much more entertaining.

Atticus: "You call THAT magic? Back in my day Wizards could fly and shoot lightning out their arse! And I still killed them! ...Naked! ...With a broadsword!"

The Glyphstone

2013-10-01, 08:53 PM

Atticus and Harry exchange snarky comments.

Molly and Granuaile have commiserating 'girl talk' about having crushes on their teachers.

Mouse laughs at Oberon's confusion when he tries to chase Mister and gets whalloped for his troubles.

Hal and Billy sniff each other's butts.

Lief murders Thomas on general principle.

Zeb

2013-10-01, 08:53 PM

Now for a good buddy cop crossover you want Harry and Atticus with Oberon and Bob doing some supernatural investigation.

Meanwhile Granuaile and Molly meet up in some wilderness where they perform some task/training/mook stomping with the local elemental and Mouse.

H and A's thing ends up being undead infestation/cabal so at the end they get to do some blasting/magic possibly tangentially related to what the girls are doing.

Rakaydos

2013-10-01, 09:07 PM

Atticus: "You call THAT magic? Back in my day Wizards could fly and shoot lightning out their arse! And I still killed them! ...Naked! ...With a broadsword!"

"Excuse me, I'm sorry I forgot to bring the zombie T-rex this time!"

BRC

2013-10-01, 09:23 PM

The real question is does Atticus have anything to match the Donut Story.

Because really, the only way this can end is them sitting in Macanally's trading stories, with whomever's story falls short buying the next round.

Cheesegear

2013-10-01, 09:23 PM

"Excuse me, I'm sorry I forgot to bring the zombie T-rex this time!"

Meh.
As a Druid, Atticus is extremely unimpressed with zombies and deconstructs the T-Rex without even trying.

No zombies allowed.

Rakaydos

2013-10-01, 10:12 PM

Meh.
As a Druid, Atticus is extremely unimpressed with zombies and deconstructs the T-Rex without even trying.

No zombies allowed.

In Dresdenverse, animated dead are stronger the bigger their psychic footprint is. Humans, of course, are the most powerful... but the footprint gets bigger the longer it's been dead. Obvously, the evil necromancers start raising hundreds of native-american burial ground zombies, and Harry isnt allowed to use necromancy on humans. So goes to the museum, and pumps all his power, all the dark energy built up by the necromancers, and a couple leilines... and puts it all into one 63 million year old "animal."

You dispell something like that, it's either going to shrug it off or blow up like a nuke.

Cheesegear

2013-10-01, 11:37 PM

In Dresdenverse, animated dead are stronger the bigger their psychic footprint is. Humans, of course, are the most powerful... but the footprint gets bigger the longer it's been dead.

In Iron Druid-verse, that doesn't matter. If it's undead, it can be unbound, easily. Since it's not alive, Atticus is also free to use any and all magic he feels he needs to.

Conflicting rules of magic.
The T-Rex in Dresdenverse is powerful because everyone is playing by the same rules.
Atticus has different rules of magic.

Tavar

2013-10-01, 11:44 PM

So, everyone automatically plays by Atticus's rules? That clearly a fair and balanced system.

Cheesegear

2013-10-02, 01:51 AM

So, everyone automatically plays by Atticus's rules? That clearly a fair and balanced system.

No, Dresden plays by his rules, and Atticus plays by his. And, no. It's not even nearly fair. That's why Atticus fights Gods.

Silver Swift

2013-10-02, 03:33 AM

I wouldn't read to much into the whole god slaying thing, being a god in Atticus world is much less impressive than in the dresdenverse, just compare the two Odins. Atticus' Odin almost died because someone picked up his spear and threw it back while Domer Vadderung has powers that puts him on at least the same level as Ebenezer "I pull satellites from the sky when I'm pissed" McCoy.

In terms of power I would put Thor below both of the fairy queens (and Atticus had a lot of help with that one) while the Irish gods are more like fairy knights or ladies.

Cheesegear

2013-10-02, 04:19 AM

Atticus' Odin almost died because someone picked up his spear and threw it back while Domer Vadderung has powers that puts him on at least the same level as Ebenezer "I pull satellites from the sky when I'm pissed" McCoy.

Yeah, the Odinspear is 'just a regular spear'. Good one.

Secondly, pulling satellites from the sky isn't actually that impressive. It's just Telekinesis that ranges several hundred kilometres. It sounds cool, but it's still just Telekinesis - and you can get gravity to most of the work anyway. When it comes to magic, pulling satellites out of the sky is tame - at best. Now, if McCoy had conjured the satellite out of thin air, that's impressive.

Lastly, 'getting killed' in Atticus-verse is actually very easy. Most beings in the Druid-verse have far better offence than defence - except Atticus, 'cause he's apparently Magic Batman.

Here's another question; Is Demonsreach an Elemental or Fae? Because that would have implications on whether or not it would choose to help or not help Dresden against The Last Druid.

The Glyphstone

2013-10-02, 09:46 AM

It's a Genius Loci, the embodied sentience of a physical place - in this case, an island. I think by both setting's rules, it would be an Elemental,since things like Sonara are described almost identically in IDC....but that might not matter. Sure, Atticus is The Last Druid, but Harry is

The Warden
Even if he might not know it yet at this point in the timeline. Demonreach is pretty single-minded obsessive about its charge, I don't think it would hesitate to act in Harry's defense if it had to. It might, in its weird way, try to talk Atticus down first, tell him to go away so it doesn't have to kill him, but it wouldn't abandon Harry or switch sides.

Rakaydos

2013-10-02, 09:49 AM

Here's another question; Is Demonsreach an Elemental or Fae? Because that would have implications on whether or not it would choose to help or not help Dresden against The Last Druid.

Demonreach is a "Spirit of the land", but not a plesant one. Stop an army from invading his island? not a problem. If you're trying to violate it's charge, and ARNT an important pillar holding up the universe (read: Fairy queen) it will slap you down. When Dresden threated to have Demonreach take Mab, Queen of Air and Darkness, she honored the threat- and she's several orders of magnitude over the Ladies.

BRC

2013-10-02, 09:58 AM

Demonreach is probably an Elemental (especially since in Dresdenverse "Fae" is very well defined). Once again I don't know IDC, but I imagine that calling demonreach an "Elemental" is like calling both an Elephant and an Ant "Animals". Yes, the classification is technically accurate, but you are missing quite a bit.

That said, Harry has been in mortal danger while on Demonreach (post-pact even) on multiple occasions and Demonreach hasn't stepped in to save his sorry ass. It's provided him with knowledge, and when he asked it too it has collapsed trees and stuff, but it hasn't exactly shown up and smashed his enemies to pieces for him.

Demonreach is powerful, but it's not big on initative. Harry would have perfect knowledge of everything on the island, and it might be able to lend some help, and it might step in if Harry was about to die, but up until that point unless Atticus was posed to disrupt the prison in some way it would leave him alone.

The bigger issue might be psychological, assuming Atticus can sense Demonreach, somthing with that level of power hanging around might be more than a little distracting.

The Glyphstone

2013-10-02, 10:06 AM

Demonreach is probably an Elemental (especially since in Dresdenverse "Fae" is very well defined). Once again I don't know IDC, but I imagine that calling demonreach an "Elemental" is like calling both an Elephant and an Ant "Animals". Yes, the classification is technically accurate, but you are missing quite a bit.

.

That's why I made a comparison to Sonara (who Atticus is on good terms with), rather than to that iron elemental Atticus has on retainer. Both of them are also 'elementals', but the manifestation of the Sonaran Desert is probably the Elephant in that comparison compared to the iron elemental's Ant, and Demonreach is also on the Elephant end of the scale due to the specific nature of its environment and location, if not its size.

Got a point though in that it's not really proactive. Though that could still work in Harry's favor once Atticus senses it or tries to tap it himself and discovers the land-spirit is in his opponent's corner and how big it is - he'd be a fool not to be constantly on guard and holding back a portion of his power to defend against a surprise attack, even if he doesn't realize it won't launch any attack without specific orders/requests.

Rakaydos

2013-10-02, 10:38 AM

The Iron Druid world has guns and the supernatural world is far more aware of them than in the Dresdenverse, though I'm not sure if anyone on their team has any fire arms proficiency. They aren't immune to gunfire either, though most of them are very mobile so it's going to be hard to hit them.

Sounds like Kincaid wins. You walk right past him, and a few weeks later a 50cal HV round somehow ends up in the back of your head when you're sitting on the toilet or buying groceries or something.

The Glyphstone

2013-10-02, 11:36 AM

Sounds like Kincaid wins. You walk right past him, and a few weeks later a 50cal HV round somehow ends up in the back of your head when you're sitting on the toilet or buying groceries or something.

Kincaid isn't on the list of assets for two reasons. One is that he doesn't have an opposite number, and two

It doesn't work. Atticus actually does get his head blown off by a sniper in the most-recent book. It doesn't take, he recovers just fine after a bit thanks to what's basically a contingent-resurrection-charm he created and was wearing.

Tavar

2013-10-02, 03:34 PM

No, Dresden plays by his rules, and Atticus plays by his. And, no. It's not even nearly fair. That's why Atticus fights Gods.

If they were playing their own rules then you wouldn't be able to say that atticus's charms work. They only work because all magic in his world is fairy magic(by Dresden rules). And since the principles of necromancy are different then perhaps what works for one would not work for the other.

Except, nope, everyone follows the set of rules for one universe.

Silver Swift

2013-10-02, 05:38 PM

That's why I made a comparison to Sonara (who Atticus is on good terms with), rather than to that iron elemental Atticus has on retainer. Both of them are also 'elementals', but the manifestation of the Sonaran Desert is probably the Elephant in that comparison compared to the iron elemental's Ant, and Demonreach is also on the Elephant end of the scale due to the specific nature of its environment and location, if not its size.

Demonreach is substantially more powerful than Sonara, it might be better compared to one of the tectonic elementals (or however they were called) but more localised and a lot more proactive. If we're abusing the comparison a bit more, Sonora is more like a rat or small cat, plenty huge compared to an ant, but small compared to an elephant.

Kincaid isn't on the list of assets for two reasons. One is that he doesn't have an opposite number

Yeah, team Dresden really suffers from excluding their badass normals, though I think Murphey or Sanya would be more useful in this specific scenario, they're better in melee combat and have more experience using the swords.

It doesn't work. Atticus actually does get his head blown off by a sniper in the most-recent book. It doesn't take, he recovers just fine after a bit thanks to what's basically a contingent-resurrection-charm he created and was wearing.

That's only Atticus though and he has to land with his tattoo's touching the earth. Also, it would probably only work once, the second time Kincaid would probably be genre savvy enough to burn the body or something.

The Glyphstone

2013-10-02, 05:50 PM

Demonreach is substantially more powerful than Sonara, it might be better compared to one of the tectonic elementals (or however they were called) but more localised and a lot more proactive. If we're abusing the comparison a bit more, Sonora is more like a rat or small cat, plenty huge compared to an ant, but small compared to an elephant.
It's also limited by the Warden's orders, though, and at the point of pre-Changes, Harry has barely begun to explore what he can do with it or on it aside from Intellectus. By the end of Cold Days, I'd definitely agree with you, but I'm not sure what Demonreach can or would bring to bear at the timeframe set would sit in tectonic-plate weight class as opposed to a regional-area like Sonara. It might be an Elephant, but it looks and acts like a small cat as far as the fight parameters are concerned. Its true Elephant status is only valuable for the purpose of faking out Atticus.

Yeah, team Dresden really suffers from excluding their badass normals, though I think Murphey or Sanya would be more useful in this specific scenario, they're better in melee combat and have more experience using the swords.

Kincaid isn't 'normal' by any means, remember. Sanya might be pushing it, though he is full-on mortal and normal if he's not 'on the clock'. It is unfortunate that Murphy is left off the encounter list, though.

That's only Atticus though and he has to land with his tattoo's touching the earth. Also, it would probably only work once, the second time Kincaid would probably be genre savvy enough to burn the body or something.

Honestly, if Atticus allowed a 'second time', he'd kinda deserve it. And for all his experience, I doubt Kincaid would be expecting the guy he shot in the head to come back for revenge even once - if anything can recover from that, it'd be on the level of an old god or powerful Outsider by Dresdenverse standards. Against a target of that estimated caliber, Kincaid would just bomb a city block or something, he wouldn't risk a sniper shot in the first place.

Silver Swift

2013-10-03, 02:58 AM

It's also limited by the Warden's orders, though, and at the point of pre-Changes, Harry has barely begun to explore what he can do with it or on it aside from Intellectus. By the end of Cold Days, I'd definitely agree with you, but I'm not sure what Demonreach can or would bring to bear at the timeframe set would sit in tectonic-plate weight class as opposed to a regional-area like Sonara. It might be an Elephant, but it looks and acts like a small cat as far as the fight parameters are concerned. Its true Elephant status is only valuable for the purpose of faking out Atticus.

Fair enough, that makes sense.

Kincaid isn't 'normal' by any means, remember. Sanya might be pushing it, though he is full-on mortal and normal if he's not 'on the clock'. It is unfortunate that Murphy is left off the encounter list, though.

Right, I forgot about that, did we ever figure out what Kincaid is exactly? Maybe we could add Laksha and Kincaid to the list as very expensive supernatural hired help. Would that make much of a difference?

Honestly, if Atticus allowed a 'second time', he'd kinda deserve it. And for all his experience, I doubt Kincaid would be expecting the guy he shot in the head to come back for revenge even once - if anything can recover from that, it'd be on the level of an old god or powerful Outsider by Dresdenverse standards. Against a target of that estimated caliber, Kincaid would just bomb a city block or something, he wouldn't risk a sniper shot in the first place.

Well, the one person he used it on did come back, though he did had help from said powerful Outsider. Also, I'm not sure what Atticus is going to do with a second chance. The entire point of sniping powerful spellcasters to death is that they don't know who did it (and that they don't have time to react, but not knowing where to throw your death curse is useful too). He might be more careful, but it's not like he can make himself bullet proof.

Socratov

2013-10-03, 03:45 AM

as a rabid fan of both works I can only agree on the fact that terrain matters, as well as when in the books. This is especially true of Granuaille and if we allow tactics the we should definitely incorporate the fact that Oberon always gets hit with the speed and strength bindings to *ahem* supercharge him into running on par with cars and hitting like trucks.

On Molly's mental whammy, it won't work on Atticus and Oberon since the defining feature of the iron amulets is shielding form magic in any direct form possible.

On that note fuego and pyrofuego should work by virtue of not targeting directly. Still, I think in a straight up fight only terrain will be able to give Harry victory: if Atticus can actually touch the earth, he wins, if not Harry wins.

On the swords: Fragarach and Moralltach offer more utility, the swords of the cross depend on faith. Faith is fickle and if it were Michael Carpenter wielding one He'd have an edge, the rest not since faith magic is exactly that. It's not hte sword, it's in the belief in the sword, for me giving a edge to Fragarach and Moralltach.

On the elemental thing: edge local elemental for Atticus: it can actually make it's presence knowns in earthquakes, making pits, superhcarging the magic of Atticus, in addition to the intellectus comparable to what Harry gets with Demonreach. You name it.

TL;DR

On Tarmac/ concrete/ such things: Harry Dresden & Co.
On natural ground: Atticus & Co.

The Glyphstone

2013-10-03, 09:27 AM

Right, I forgot about that, did we ever figure out what Kincaid is exactly? Maybe we could add Laksha and Kincaid to the list as very expensive supernatural hired help. Would that make much of a difference?

According to the RPG, he's a 'Scion', the half-breed child of a demon and a mortal human.

If we added both, I think I'd rate Kincaid > Laksha. Both are ruthless killers with extreme power, but Laksha, IIRC, is dependent on sympathetic witch magic to get her death spells off, and Harry+Co. are extremely familiar with how dangerous it is to let an enemy get hold of your body bits.

Well, the one person he used it on did come back, though he did had help from said powerful Outsider. Also, I'm not sure what Atticus is going to do with a second chance. The entire point of sniping powerful spellcasters to death is that they don't know who did it (and that they don't have time to react, but not knowing where to throw your death curse is useful too). He might be more careful, but it's not like he can make himself bullet proof.

Timeline-wise, that hasn't happened yet, in addition to the fact that he technically never died in the first place. I'm not sure what Atticus would do with his second life either, but at least it'd give him an option for one, rather than Kincaid being the instant-win button he would be otherwise.

On the other hand, Dresden doesn't really need another instant-win button in an urban setting. Kincaid would be highly effective in the desert with long open sight lines, but not nearly as much in the forest where it'd be almost impossible to hide from Atticus's druidic magic.

molten_dragon

2013-10-04, 10:43 AM

I recently finished the sixth book of the Iron Druid Chronicles and I noticed how similar Atticus is to Harry Dresden, hence this thread.

Since both of these characters rely heavily on their extensive supernatural connections we're going to have to give them some allies, but given their rather alarming tendency to escalate conflicts to ridiculous levels we are going to have to set some limits to prevent this from turning into an all out brawl between the two supernatural worlds.

Both teams get a hero, a apprentice, a dog, an elemental, a werewolf, a vampire, two magical swords and assorted magical jewellery. To clarify,

{table=head]{colsp=2}
The teams
Team Dresden | Team Iron Druid
Harry | Atticus
Molly | Granuaile
Mouse | Oberon
Bob | The local elemental
Billy | Hal
Thomas | Leif
Fidalacchius | Fragarach
Amorachius |Moraltach
[/table]

The fight will take place in three locations, Chicago, the Mojave dessert and a forest in Ireland. Whoever wins two out of three battles wins the fight.

Some other rules:

* Leaving the battlefield through any means, including running to the nevernever or Tir na Nog, will be considered a loss (if we give either of these characters time to go Batman on the other this becomes a battle of resources rather than skill).

* The cold iron amulets do stop direct applications of Harry's magic, but not indirect applications. So Fuego, Pyrofuego and their ilk are out, but using telekinesis to push a rock in someone's face is in. Likewise, the fairy specs and Harry's true seeing trick can pierce the other teams illusions.

* Chronologically team Dresden are what they are right before Changes, except that Harry doesn't have access to Lasciel and team Iron Druid are what they are after Hunted. (I know Leif isn't exactly on speaking terms with Atticus at this point, but we needed him for symmetries sake, just assume he's doing him a favour of some kind)

* Neither character knows what the other can do beyond "they can do magic and/or are supernatural".

It's kind of a weird match-up. They wouldn't be likely to fight in the first place, unless it was some sort of misunderstanding, and then the fight would likely end quickly.

Bob is an odd addition to the team since you said they don't know anything about what the other person can do, and that's the whole point of Bob, superior knowledge.

The swords of the cross are also odd additions, since by themselves, they don't really have much power. Their power is more in the faith of the people wielding them, and you didn't include the wielders on the team. Fragarach and Moralltach are powerful in their own right, regardless of who's wielding them.

But anyway, the matchups.

Harry vs. Atticus - Atticus can't directly harm Harry with his magic or he dies, Harry can't do much to Atticus directly due to the amulet (though I wonder how soulfire would interact with the amulet). So it's down to who's best at using their magic indirectly. Atticus certainly has more experience, but he's spent a lot of his life hiding out and avoiding conflict. I'd say that part's pretty much a push. Harry carries a gun, which is a big advantage, but if Atticus can close to melee range, he'll shred Harry. This one's close, but I'll probably give it to Atticus, since Harry works best when he knows what he's up against and can exploit weaknesses. Without that ability he's at a disadvantage.

Molly vs. Granuaile - Definitely Molly. She's more experienced, and Granuaile doesn't have access to much in the way of magic yet. Granuaile could beat her in a fistfight, but that's not going to happen. Molly will veil herself and hit Granuaile from hiding.

Mouse vs. Oberon - This one isn't even a contest. Oberon's cool, but besides being able to talk to Atticus and living longer than a normal wolfhound, he's just a normal dog. Mouse is a powerful supernatural being. Oberon's dog food.

Billy vs. Hal - They seem to have pretty similar abilities, so I'll probably give this one to Hal, simply because he's been doing it longer.

Thomas vs. Leif - Leif seems more powerful at first, but he's basically a black court vampire, and the white court knows how to fight those. I wouldn't count Thomas out, but he's probably at a disadvantage.

All in all, I'll probably give the Iron Druid team a slight edge.

If Harry were able to call on all his advantages though (Murphy, knowledge about what he's fighting, possibly the einherjar, Ebenezar, the za lord's guard, etc.) I think he'd win easily.

The Glyphstone

2013-10-04, 11:11 AM

Yeah, a massive portion of Harry's potential is in his allies and connections, whereas Atticus has spent two thousand years honing his ability to be a loner who can drop everything and leave if one of his many enemies is closing in. Atticus does have people he can call on if he needs to, but most of them will want something significant for their trouble, compared to the true friends Harry has in spades. Heck, even Lief and Hal won't work for free.

Lief is definitely a powerhouse, though, moreso than any Black Court vampire we've seen - he's very vulnerable to fire and sunlight, but I don't remember him being unusually susceptible to holy energy. Considering how deadly he is at close quarters, that could be a fatal misstep for anyone who assumes his vampiric type shares all the BC weaknesses.

Rakaydos

2013-10-04, 11:21 AM

Question is, can Harry Forzare away one of the ID swords and pass it to thomas?

molten_dragon

2013-10-04, 12:04 PM

Lief is definitely a powerhouse, though, moreso than any Black Court vampire we've seen - he's very vulnerable to fire and sunlight, but I don't remember him being unusually susceptible to holy energy. Considering how deadly he is at close quarters, that could be a fatal misstep for anyone who assumes his vampiric type shares all the BC weaknesses.

It's been awhile since I've read the Iron Druid books. I don't remember exactly what Leif was able to do. I just remembered him being most like a black court vampire.

Socratov

2013-10-04, 12:19 PM

It's been awhile since I've read the Iron Druid books. I don't remember exactly what Leif was able to do. I just remembered him being most like a black court vampire.

true, but of a level of the Black Court Elders. He is freakishly strong

The Glyphstone

2013-10-04, 12:22 PM

As in, 'rip the boulder-sized head off a stone golem, then overhand throw it* upward through three stories of a building' strong.

*the head, not the golem. He's not that strong.

BRC

2013-10-04, 12:24 PM

As in, 'rip the boulder-sized head off a stone golem, then overhand throw it* upward through three stories of a building' strong.

*the head, not the golem. He's not that strong.

Does harry still carry around a hankerchief full of sunshine from the earlier books?

The Glyphstone

2013-10-04, 12:26 PM

Does harry still carry around a hankerchief full of sunshine from the earlier books?

If I remember right, no. He used it on Bianca, and couldn't make another one since Susan left because you had to be 'truly happy' to create pocket sunshine. Seems like a one-off thing, especially since it never made an appearance in Changes, where you'd expect it to reappear.

Rakaydos

2013-10-04, 12:49 PM

If I remember right, no. He used it on Bianca, and couldn't make another one since Susan left because you had to be 'truly happy' to create pocket sunshine. Seems like a one-off thing, especially since it never made an appearance in Changes, where you'd expect it to reappear.

After years of war with the red court, I dot expect ANY wizard to be a pocketful of sunshine anymore.

Silver Swift

2013-10-04, 04:11 PM

Bob is an odd addition to the team since you said they don't know anything about what the other person can do, and that's the whole point of Bob, superior knowledge.

The swords of the cross are also odd additions, since by themselves, they don't really have much power. Their power is more in the faith of the people wielding them, and you didn't include the wielders on the team. Fragarach and Moralltach are powerful in their own right, regardless of who's wielding them.

Yeah, these are valid problems, I probably went a bit overboard with trying to find a symmetric match up. I also initially thought this would be a curb stomp victory for Harry's team so I might have overcompensated for that.

I wouldn't regard Bob as completely useless though, he is ridiculously good at processing new information and he might just come up with some DF magic that Harry doesn't know about that saves the day. Also if the fight starts beyond visual range Bob can scout the battlefield in his incorporeal form.

Molly vs. Granuaile - Definitely Molly. She's more experienced, and Granuaile doesn't have access to much in the way of magic yet. Granuaile could beat her in a fistfight, but that's not going to happen. Molly will veil herself and hit Granuaile from hiding.

That depends on whether Granuaile can use the fairy specs trick (and whether Molly gives her enough time to do so) or can borrow Atticus sight.

If Harry were able to call on all his advantages though (Murphy, knowledge about what he's fighting, possibly the einherjar, Ebenezar, the za lord's guard, etc.) I think he'd win easily.

But then Atticus calls in some favours from the various pantheons in his world and this becomes a all out brawl between two worlds (which I agree the dresden world would win, but that is hardly Atticus vs Harry anymore).

Question is, can Harry Forzare away one of the ID swords and pass it to thomas?

I don't believe we ever see Harry use Forzare that way, he occasionally uses his telekinesis spell (ventos servitas, or something like that) to grab unattended objects, but I don't think he ever disarms anyone with it.

true, but of a level of the Black Court Elders. He is freakishly strong

Aren't black court vampires more of the magicky type vampires? I don't recall them being very scary in physical combat, they have minions for that. Leif has hypnotic vision but other than that he's is just really (really) strong.

Aidan305

2013-10-04, 04:14 PM

Haven't read the Iron Druid books yet, so can't really comment on the match-up other than pointing out that Dresden has a hell of a lot more up his sleeve that Fuego and Forzare in a fight.

Gravitus for example (Which was first used in It's My Birthday Too). If he can get the ID team to maintain their position for 30 seconds or so (Which may well be possible with Molly present) there's little stopping him from compressing them in to small chunks.

BRC

2013-10-04, 04:15 PM

I don't believe we ever see Harry use Forzare that way, he occasionally uses his telekinesis spell (ventos servitas, or something like that) to grab unattended objects, but I don't think he ever disarms anyone with it.

Aren't black court vampires more of the magicky type vampires? I don't recall them being very scary in physical combat, they have minions for that. Leif has hypnotic vision but other than that his is just really (really) strong.

Forzare can be subtle enough to open one of those pushbar doors while Harry is on the other side, or powerful enough to flip a car on top of any robe-wearing necromancers. Harry has never explictly Forzared a weapon out of somebody's hands to my knowledge, but there is no reason to think he couldn't do it.
Mind you considering the level of force Harry throws around in combat it might just break the wielder's arm alongside diarming the weapon.
I don't think he's good enough to deftly pluck the sword out of his grip, but he could kknock it away.

We don't meet many BC vamps. I got the impression that they were Scary Strong. Mavra just happens to be a skilled sorceress who dosn't like getting her hands dirty.

There was one short story with a newly-birthed Black Court Vampire (Who Vampd some security guards into minions) and seemed to have plenty of raw strength at her disposal.

The Glyphstone

2013-10-04, 04:18 PM

Socratov

2013-10-04, 04:22 PM

Yeah, these are valid problems, I probably went a bit overboard with trying to find a symmetric match up. I also initially thought this would be a curb stomp victory for Harry's team so I might have overcompensated for that.

I wouldn't regard Bob as completely useless though, he is ridiculously good at processing new information and he might just come up with some DF magic that Harry doesn't know about that saves the day. Also if the fight starts beyond visual range Bob can scout the battlefield in his incorporeal form.

That depends on whether Granuaile can use the fairy specs trick (and whether Molly gives her enough time to do so) or can borrow Atticus sight.

But then Atticus calls in some favours from the various pantheons in his world and this becomes a all out brawl between two worlds (which I agree the dresden world would win, but that is hardly Atticus vs Harry anymore).

I don't believe we ever see Harry use Forzare that way, he occasionally uses his telekinesis spell (ventos servitas, or something like that) to grab unattended objects, but I don't think he ever disarms anyone with it.

Aren't black court vampires more of the magicky type vampires? I don't recall them being very scary in physical combat, they have minions for that. Leif has hypnotic vision but other than that his is just really (really) strong.

Well, yes, save for the fact that the elders stand their ground physically as well. AS I understood, it's less that htey are the magicy and more that they actually dabble more in magic sort of thing. That said, not much is known at the present about the Black court and it was commented on that the White Court used media (Bram Stoker's Dracula and other classically inclined vampire inspired works) to hunt the Black Court down. It is specualted upon that Twilight is the same trick, but versus White Court vampires :smallamused:

Oh, and heh has any other classically vampiric traits, including super speed, fabulous fencing form, tactical insight and cardiovascular vision as well as a superb sense of smell and years worth of steroids in the form of a certain 2100 years old druid's blood.

On account of trickery, Atticus' use of bindings can potentially take Harry out of the fight. And if it's one thing Atticus loves it's using his bindings for trickery. Aside from that, unless Atticus manages to get ambushed (and we all know how great Harry is at sitting still and keeping his peace), he usually is fairly quick in establishing the +stats and vison routine for both him, Granuaille and Oberon, setting it up as a direct line form the elemental. I think in terms of strategy Atticus has the edge.

Aidan305

2013-10-04, 04:22 PM

Only person he can use that against is Lief, though, since bloodlust is off and Harry won't violate the First Law of Magic without it.

Not quite. It's indirect magic, focusing on an area rather than a specific person. It may well be able to get past the cold iron amulets.

Couldn't say for certain though, not having read the books in question.

BRC

2013-10-04, 04:29 PM

Not quite. It's indirect magic, focusing on an area rather than a specific person. It may well be able to get past the cold iron amulets.

Couldn't say for certain though, not having read the books in question.
They mean the First Law of Magic: Thou Shalt Not Kill.*

*Humans, With Magic. You can shoot humans or fireball anything non-human just fine, but don't kill Humans with magic.

Leif is the only non-human, so the only one Harry could finish off with magic.

I think it's acceptable to, say, break a human's bones with magic, then shoot them through the head. It might be okay to light a building on fire and have people die in it provided that was not your intent when casting the spell.

And while its a grey area, there IS a self-defense clause, although that's still a HUGE grey area. Harry killed somebody in a case of pretty clear self-defense and he had to get another wizard to aggree to take him in under the condition that if EITHER wizard did anything even approaching breaking one of the laws both would get executed.

Although he did kill a cursed werewolf with magic and did not get into trouble for that, so there may be a fluid definition of "Human"

Aidan305

2013-10-04, 04:46 PM

They mean the First Law of Magic: Thou Shalt Not Kill.*

*Humans, With Magic. You can shoot humans or fireball anything non-human just fine, but don't kill Humans with magic.

Leif is the only non-human, so the only one Harry could finish off with magic.

I think it's acceptable to, say, break a human's bones with magic, then shoot them through the head. It might be okay to light a building on fire and have people die in it provided that was not your intent when casting the spell.

And while its a grey area, there IS a self-defense clause, although that's still a HUGE grey area. Harry killed somebody in a case of pretty clear self-defense and he had to get another wizard to aggree to take him in under the condition that if EITHER wizard did anything even approaching breaking one of the laws both would get executed.

Although he did kill a cursed werewolf with magic and did not get into trouble for that, so there may be a fluid definition of "Human"
Ah yes, of course. It crossed my mind when I was reading Glyphstone's post, but for some reason then switched to Joe Abercrombie afterwards.

Of course, it's also just crossed my mind that things are starting to seem fairly heavily weighted against Dresden which is the point where he usually starts winning. :p

GloatingSwine

2013-10-04, 06:10 PM

Atticus appears to be stronger and faster than Harry, and able to shrug off a lot of Harry's magic.

But, y'know, Harry deals with **** like that on a weekly basis.

Also, if he's not protected from indirect effects, the heat of a fireblast is going to seriously inconvenience him, and if he's faster and stronger than it's possible for a human to be, and appears to be able to shrug off most magic, Harry isn't necessarily going to treat him as one.

The Glyphstone

2013-10-04, 08:42 PM

Rakaydos

2013-10-04, 09:12 PM

Those qualifiers also apply to enemy wizards, and Harry never suspends the First Law for them.

Cowl? I mean, sure, dropping a CAR on him isnt technically using magic to kill, but that was only because direct spell use was easilly brushed aside. (and cowl STILL survived)

The Glyphstone

2013-10-04, 09:32 PM

Cowl? I mean, sure, dropping a CAR on him isnt technically using magic to kill, but that was only because direct spell use was easilly brushed aside. (and cowl STILL survived)

Harry loves his technicalities. Flinging cars at people is okay, gravity-squishing them to puddles isn't.

Cheesegear

2013-10-04, 09:37 PM

Those qualifiers also apply to enemy wizards, and Harry never suspends the First Law for them.

Also, First Druidic Law is similar. That Druids can't use their magic to kill living things (or is it harm?). Of course, there's a huge loophole that Atticus regularly exploits.

Harry never breaks First Law.

"Y'know Dresden, if my master were here right now, he'd tell you that you're [rooster]ing it up."

The Glyphstone

2013-10-04, 09:43 PM

Though the Druidic equivalent is, arguably, harsher, since if Atticus ever directly violates it, he'll drop dead on the spot. All Harry has to worry about is the Wardens coming after him if they find out.

Rakaydos

2013-10-04, 11:50 PM

So, I havnt read the ID books, but how does the vorpal sword do aggainst harry's bulletproof trenchcoat?

The Glyphstone

2013-10-05, 12:08 AM

Depends on which one.

Fragarach, The Answerer, has the power (among a few other things) to cleave effortlessly through any sort of defense. So it'd ignore his trenchcoat like so much soft butter, but once it hit it'd be no more deadly than an ordinary sword (so, still moderately deadly, but not magically so).

Moralltach, his other sword, isn't supernaturally sharp in any way, so armor works against it just like any non-enchanted sword, but even a tiny cut causes near-instantaneous and unavoidable death.

Silver Swift

2013-10-05, 01:20 AM

Fragarach, The Answerer, has the power (among a few other things) to cleave effortlessly through any sort of defense. So it'd ignore his trenchcoat like so much soft butter, but once it hit it'd be no more deadly than an ordinary sword (so, still moderately deadly, but not magically so).

Actually, I think it was pointed out at some point that Fragarach has issues cutting through some other divinely powered magical equipment. I'm not exactly sure in reference to what this was though (maybe Brighid fancy new armour?). But, yeah, it'll probably cut straight through the trenchcoat.

Also, Fragarach is a lot more deadly than an ordinary sword, even once it hits, on account of being able to cut through skin and bones (which apparently still constitute defence to some extend) a lot easier than normal swords.

Also, First Druidic Law is similar. That Druids can't use their magic to kill living things (or is it harm?). Of course, there's a huge loophole that Atticus regularly exploits.

It's definitely harm and Gaia is a lot stricter about it than the white council, Atticus can't even use it to heal others because that usually causes some amount of harm aside from the healing. Also, it applies to all living creatures, not just humans and it doesn't have the (theoretical) self defence exception that the councils version has.

The Glyphstone

2013-10-05, 01:29 AM

That's because her armor was specifically designed/forged for the purpose of deflecting Fragarach - the Immovable Object to its Unstoppable Force. Against anything that wasn't purpose-designed against it, I doubt it'd have any trouble.

As for cutting through flesh/bone, I'm not sure there would be a noticeable difference when the wielder is already supernaturally strong (as most people who get their hands on magic swords in the ID universe tend to be). It's not insta-lethal like Moralltach is, though.

molten_dragon

2013-10-05, 03:55 AM

Aren't black court vampires more of the magicky type vampires? I don't recall them being very scary in physical combat, they have minions for that. Leif has hypnotic vision but other than that he's is just really (really) strong.

No, black court vampires are the traditional Dracula-style vampires. Living corpses that are extremely strong, very resilient, can naturally use mental magic and create thralls, but have a whole laundry list of weaknesses.

I don't think they can typically use wizard-style magic, since Harry was very surprised to learn that Mavra could.

molten_dragon

2013-10-05, 04:12 AM

Only person he can use that against is Lief, though, since bloodlust is off and Harry won't violate the First Law of Magic without it.

Although we did see Harry do that exact thing to a black court vampire in one of the short stories to great effect. Leif is a lot stronger than that blampire was, but Harry's a lot stronger now than he was then too.

That brings up another good point too. Many of us have been comparing the fighters directly against their counterparts, but that's a pretty dumb way for them to fight.

For example, Billy is at a disadvantage due to his age and relative inexperience vs. Hal. Plus he's not used to working alone, he's used to having the other Alphas with him, and they use a lot of harrying tactics, much like a real pack of wolves. It would be much smarter to ignore Oberon, and mouse and Billy team up to quickly take out Hal. Thomas could easily incapacitate granuaile with his white court powers and then kill her. Leif has no faerie specs, so Molly could seriously hamper him with her illusions, likewise he's very vulnerable to fire, and he's not human, so the laws wouldn't protect him from Harry roasting him alive.

The Iron Druid team would likely resort to smarter tactics than just fighting one on one vs. their opposites too.

Socratov

2013-10-05, 05:36 AM

Although we did see Harry do that exact thing to a black court vampire in one of the short stories to great effect. Leif is a lot stronger than that blampire was, but Harry's a lot stronger now than he was then too.

That brings up another good point too. Many of us have been comparing the fighters directly against their counterparts, but that's a pretty dumb way for them to fight.

For example, Billy is at a disadvantage due to his age and relative inexperience vs. Hal. Plus he's not used to working alone, he's used to having the other Alphas with him, and they use a lot of harrying tactics, much like a real pack of wolves. It would be much smarter to ignore Oberon, and mouse and Billy team up to quickly take out Hal. Thomas could easily incapacitate granuaile with his white court powers and then kill her. Leif has no faerie specs, so Molly could seriously hamper him with her illusions, likewise he's very vulnerable to fire, and he's not human, so the laws wouldn't protect him from Harry roasting him alive.

The Iron Druid team would likely resort to smarter tactics than just fighting one on one vs. their opposites too.
We are talking about a 2100 year old druid who has had to fight or run from gods for the major part of those years. You can bet your ass that he will use tactics

molten_dragon

2013-10-05, 06:25 AM

We are talking about a 2100 year old druid who has had to fight or run from gods for the major part of those years. You can bet your ass that he will use tactics

Of course. We're not talking about stupid people on either side of the fight here. Both sides have considerable experience dealing with violent supernatural confrontations.

Cheesegear

2013-10-05, 07:14 AM

Though the Druidic equivalent is, arguably, harsher, since if Atticus ever directly violates it, he'll drop dead on the spot.

IIRC, if he ever directly violates it, he loses his Magic, nothing more. However, as his immortality is tied into his relationship with Airmid and his magic, that's why he would drop dead.

It's really unclear if the same would apply to Granuaile.

Socratov

2013-10-05, 07:58 AM

IIRC, if he ever directly violates it, he loses his Magic, nothing more. However, as his immortality is tied into his relationship with Airmid and his magic, that's why he would drop dead.

It's really unclear if the same would apply to Granuaile.

well, it's not dropping dead. He loses his magic and thus can't prolong his life anymore. At most he will actually grow old without a means to rejuvenate himself. His immortality is drinking his tea that rejuvenates his cells. edit I was wrong I guess, gaia giveth and gaia taketh away it seems, including your life if you violate the rules...

For Granaille it'sit depends on the book, when she is a druid she's bound by the same, before she is not.

Moglorosh

2013-10-05, 07:36 PM

Dresden Files makes a point that while Fire magic magically creates and controls fire, the fire itself and the heat it generates is not magical, so unless the amulets are creating a protective bubble or somthing Fuego should still work on them. If the Amulets specifically only protect the wearer, then it would work against mental magic or Ramirez's disentigration-beams, plus Harry physically flinging them around with kinetic energy, but harry's Fire would still work.

Summer Knight begs to differ. Grum shrugs off Harry's "spellfire" just fine, but "plain old vanilla fire" (via gasoline and a lighter) worked quite well against him. To me this would indicate that they are two different things.

Belial_the_Leveler

2013-10-05, 08:13 PM

Guy immune to magic? Hit him with a whirlwind strong enough to scour his skin via picked up rocks or even soil. The Grendelkin was much faster and stronger and tougher than Atticus and the spell worked on him. Bonus points for the "flaywind" spell not being instantly lethal so you can disable an opponent then shoot them in the head. Further bonus points for the "flaywind" spell scouring Atticus' druidic tattoos and thus his magic. Of course Dresden wouldn't know that in advance.

Also, Atticus is not immune to magic. Divine thunderbolts would have worked on him just fine if not for the protective gift given to him by Perun. Odin's spear tracked him normally. Various charm/emotion spells have been observed to partially work. And sufficiently powerful magic was not immediately overcome by his aura.
So it is best to treat his aura as a fairly high threshold, especially against faerie magic, but not outright immunity.

Silver Swift

2013-10-06, 01:59 AM

Also, Atticus is not immune to magic. Divine thunderbolts would have worked on him just fine if not for the protective gift given to him by Perun. Odin's spear tracked him normally. Various charm/emotion spells have been observed to partially work. And sufficiently powerful magic was not immediately overcome by his aura.
So it is best to treat his aura as a fairly high threshold, especially against faerie magic, but not outright immunity.

IIRC we never find out whether the spear misses because of the shape shifting or because of the amulet as Atticus isn't very eager to experiment with stuff like that.

Rakaydos

2013-10-06, 11:43 AM

Summer Knight begs to differ. Grum shrugs off Harry's "spellfire" just fine, but "plain old vanilla fire" (via gasoline and a lighter) worked quite well against him. To me this would indicate that they are two different things.

Note that this was before Harry got Soulfire, which specifically makes his fire "more real."

Lamech

2013-10-06, 12:01 PM

Black court vampires are both the heaviest brutes of the group, but they are also the "most spiritual" or something. So they die the easiest to Faith, while Red Courts are harder to burn, and Thomas can walk into a church.

Anyway, Black Courts tend not to live very long if they mix it up in physical combat because they bump into someone with a cross on their neck, or who just ate a pizza with extra garlic. So Susan in her Red Ridinghood costume could beat up a BC vamp if it decided to charge.

The thing that makes them scary is that they all possess nasty mind control abilities, and the ones still living use those abilities in nasty ways. An attack on a BC nest, isn't fighting the BC vamps. Unless you're stupid, the vamps will all die like chumps. Its like attacking a super nasty mundane nest. Remember Harry storming the nest? Every single Vamp died like a chump.

Oh and they can kill you bad if you aren't prepped.

Socratov

2013-10-06, 12:08 PM