How can I cast this on myself?

[Yogibear41]

looking for ways to cast Nar Fiend-Bond( Lost empires of Faerun) on myself, the spell specifically says it cannot be cast on yourself :smallfrown:

I have been told that a ring of spell storing could be a trick to do it but I want to look for others that could be easier to pull off.

Lets assume a few things.

1. Level 14 sorcerer based casting (probably battle sorcerer so fewer spells and stuff with some abjurant champion thrown in)

2. I know the spell

3. I have a familiar (most likely a raven)

4. I have absolutely no help from anyone else except my familiar in this process, creating temporary help with summon/unseen servant type spells is acceptable.

Bonus points

1. If I can somehow "share spell" this with my familiar giving it the template too.

2. If I can do it without taking any specific feats




Thanks for the help :smallsmile:

[Magnera]

Haven't looked at the spell, yet, but Occular Spell can do a lot of great things!

[Red Fel]

The language is pretty clear: "You cannot cast Nar fiendbond on yourself."

Unless you have some way of getting someone else to cast it on you, you're out of luck.

Trying to come up with ways to cast it on yourself without casting it on yourself ain't gonna cut it. And your list of assumptions (i.e. that you receive no outside assistance) limits you dramatically.

Can you summon something that can cast it? Can you teach the spell to someone else who can then cast it on you? Those seem to be your only options here.

[Azoth]

Could possibly Spellblade it back at yourself.

[herrhauptmann]

What do you mean by "No outside assistance?" How strict is that?
Technically, ring of spell storing could be outside assistance if you don't have the ability to make the ring yourself.

Would Spellblade: Nar Fiendbond work?
Give the spellblade to a minion, cast it on him, have him redirect it to you.

Craft a scepter of mindrape (LEoF) with 1 charge, they're like wands, but higher level. Give it to your familiar to activate.


Other than that, mindrape?
If the Cindy build can be mindraped into a level 18 caster as a 12 year old elf, I'm sure you can mindrape the knowledge of a single spell into someones head.

[Ruethgar]

One of the major Savage Species rituals could get you the half-fiend template, costly though, and I am not sure if you could do it to yourself.

If you designate your familiar as the toucher, technically you do not have a target when you cast the spell and thus you are not casting it on yourself when your familiar hits you with it.

Alternatively, cast spell turning on your familiar and try and reflect a reach version of the spell(since it can't reflect touch) back onto yourself. This would require metamagic reducers though and is a heavier cost at a spell known and at least 2 feats, though more likely to pass GM scrutiny.

[Blackjackg]

1. Learn and cast Magic Jar (Sorc 5, so you should be able to know it)

2. Take over someone's body (You said no one would help you... but what if they have no choice?)

3. Cast Nar Fiendbond on your body (the spell says that the subject must be either willing or restrained... I think that an empty shell counts).

4. Return to your body.

[Fouredged Sword]

Make a scroll and have your familiar cast it on you. Buy a scroll of guidance of the avatar to make sure it makes the check.

[Yogibear41]

Make a scroll and have your familiar cast it on you. Buy a scroll of guidance of the avatar to make sure it makes the check.

Still a DC 34 to activate it, even with a +20 plenty of room to fail on that. I like the magic jar idea though. :smallsmile:

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, buy a potion of divine insight AND a potion of guidance of the avatar. Now you get +35 to the check. Done and done.

[herrhauptmann]

Are those low enough level to make potions out of them?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It has a 1 hour casting time, and most of the FR template-adding spells require the target to do nothing but receive the spell during its casting time. This is most likely why you cannot cast it on yourself.

Just hire an NPC spellcaster to cast it on you. At standard prices it would be 7 x 13 x 10= 910 gp for the spell itself, and 5 gp per 1 xp cost of the spell, or 2500 gp x your character level. You can avoid the arcane material component cost by hiring a divine caster to do it.

If you're high enough level, you can take Leadership (via hiring an NPC to Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) you, then have them do it again to get rid of Leadership when you're done) and get a Cleric chohort who can cast it on you without charging you for the xp cost.

[Curmudgeon]

Make a scroll and have your familiar cast it on you. Buy a scroll of guidance of the avatar to make sure it makes the check.
And how exactly is the familiar getting the following?

ability to read
spellcasting ability

Activation

To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it. Doing so involves several steps and conditions. None of the familiar abilities let it cast spells; it can only deliver or receive spells the master has cast.

[Tar Palantir]

And how exactly is the familiar getting the following?

ability to read
spellcasting ability
None of the familiar abilities let it cast spells; it can only deliver or receive spells the master has cast.

Use Magic Device.

EDIT: Also, Int 3+ = literacy

[Curmudgeon]

Use Magic Device.

EDIT: Also, Int 3+ = literacy
Skills
For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use.

Use Magic Device (Cha; Trained Only)
This looks like one of the exceptions; no animal suitable to become a familiar (that I know of, anyway) has ranks in Use Magic Device. So it'd be up to your DM to decide if UMD is beyond a familiar's ability to use.

Literacy: Any character except a barbarian can read and write all the languages he or she speaks. Only a Raven familiar can speak, so only a Raven familiar is literate.

This might work, with a Raven familiar, a master with training in UMD, and an accommodating DM.

[TuggyNE]

ability to read

All familiars are NPCs, and all characters of any sort, save Barbarians and Totemists only, can read (and, assuming proper equipment and suitable limbs, write) any languages they speak. Therefore, if a familiar can speak, it can read.

Edit: Ninja'd! How sad.

[icks]

If you want to be turned into and half-fiend, you may want not to write the spell in your spell book or learn it (if you're sorcerer). Buy a scroll and find someone to cast it for you.

[Fouredged Sword]

It also may be possible to planer bind or otherwise long term summon a monster with sorcerer, wizard, or cleric casting to read a scroll for you. Any dragon with enough HD to cast sorcerer spells could do this, as well as many deamons or devils. I am sure you could talk a devil into permanently and irrevocably corrupting your soul.

[Saintheart]

Find a Runecaster - from the FRCS or PGtF, probably via a Cleric of Mystra - and buy a permanent rune of the spell. Then touch the rune. Per the explicit wording of Rune Magic, whoever triggers the rune becomes the target of the spell the rune contains, and it takes effect instantaneously. You're not casting the spell on yourself, you're simply activating the spell someone else has cast into the rune.

[Alex12]

All familiars are NPCs, and all characters of any sort, save Barbarians and Totemists only, can read (and, assuming proper equipment and suitable limbs, write) any languages they speak.

Neanderthals have illiteracy as a racial ability.
There's also a flaw that makes you illiterate.

Not saying this invalidates the point, just noting that illiterate wizards (to use the most egregious choice) are possible by RAW

[TuggyNE]

Neanderthals have illiteracy as a racial ability.
There's also a flaw that makes you illiterate.

Not saying this invalidates the point, just noting that illiterate wizards (to use the most egregious choice) are possible by RAW

Wizards, yes. Familiars, no; a raven familiar can't be a neanderthal, can't have any class levels, and can't take flaws. :smallwink:

But hey, I'd forgotten about those, so it's good to be reminded, however tangentially.

[Chronos]

And even if ravens are illiterate, you can just cast Read Magic on it.

[Yogibear41]

I'm fairly certain my DM would laugh at me if I told him my familiar can read, no matter what the rules say. He has a hard enough time accepting that all non-barbarian characters can automatically read, even more so in languages they know other than common. When I told him my aasimar could read and write celestial he was just like, really? Who taught him how? He is a realist like that.

[Fouredged Sword]

My DM stopped asking questions like "Who taught him" when my characters all starting spouting back stories full of mysterious travelers and tours with the circuse to explore the world.

Seriously, just give him a deadpan and say "His uncle, Scribe Richard Elnhown, master of languages and teacher of many young student."

[Fax Celestis]

I'm fairly certain my DM would laugh at me if I told him my familiar can read, no matter what the rules say. He has a hard enough time accepting that all non-barbarian characters can automatically read, even more so in languages they know other than common.

Your DM is a jerk.

Knowing a language counts as being able to read and write it, per RAW.


The Speak Language skill doesn’t work like other skills. Languages work as follows.


You start at 1st level knowing one or two languages (based on your race), plus an additional number of languages equal to your starting Intelligence bonus.
You can purchase Speak Language just like any other skill, but instead of buying a rank in it, you choose a new language that you can speak.
You don’t make Speak Language checks. You either know a language or you don’t.
A literate character (anyone but a barbarian who has not spent skill points to become literate) can read and write any language she speaks. Each language has an alphabet, though sometimes several spoken languages share a single alphabet.



He is a realist like that.
A realist, eh?

Does he keep wizards from breaking the laws of physics when they cast fireball? How about rogues when they use Evasion? Does he make dragons and giant vermin collapse under their own weight and unable to fly? How about golems? Do they function, or do they "realistically" stand around like very intricate statuary?

D&D is not a simulation, it is a game. It certainly has simulationist aspects, but many parts are abstracted for ease of play. Literacy is one of them.

[Harrow]

I'm fairly certain my DM would laugh at me if I told him my familiar can read, no matter what the rules say. He has a hard enough time accepting that all non-barbarian characters can automatically read, even more so in languages they know other than common. When I told him my aasimar could read and write celestial he was just like, really? Who taught him how? He is a realist like that.

For getting a familiar to read, remember that the fluff of it is that it isn't its own creature. The creation of a familiar destroys the soul and mind of the original animal and replaces it with a bit of yours. This is why you can cast spells through your familiar and why they get your skill ranks. A familiar is really just another limb for a wizard. As long as he can read, so can the familiar.

So yeah, there isn't only mechanical reasons for why familiars can read, but fluff ones to.

[Deophaun]

When I told him my aasimar could read and write celestial he was just like, really? Who taught him how? He is a realist like that.
Being a realist, does he ask the same questions of people he meets that can speak Latin or Arabic? From the PHB:

In a big city, visitors can hear all manner of languages being spoken. Dwarves haggle over gems in Dwarven, elf sages engage in learned debates in Elven, and preachers call out prayers in Celestial.
There's nothing strange about Celestial, Abyssal, Infernal, Aquan, or any other language save Druidic that makes it inaccessible to your average PC. It's not like there is a dearth of ways or needs to talk to beings from other planes that would make those languages difficult to come by. Just something for your "realistic" DM to chew on.

[Sith_Happens]

It also may be possible to planer bind or otherwise long term summon a monster with sorcerer, wizard, or cleric casting to read a scroll for you. Any dragon with enough HD to cast sorcerer spells could do this, as well as many deamons or devils. I am sure you could talk a devil into permanently and irrevocably corrupting your soul.

A Lilitu (FCI) automatically succeeds on UMD checks.

[Spuddles]

And how exactly is the familiar getting the following?

ability to read
spellcasting ability
None of the familiar abilities let it cast spells; it can only deliver or receive spells the master has cast.

Spellcraft is the skill used for deciphering scrolls, not speak language. A dragon and a dwarf would probably scribe their scrolls in quite different languages, yet a mind flayer with no knowledge of either dwarven or draconic could pick up the scroll and read with a spellcraft check.

[Yogibear41]

Oh he still lets me be able to read and write them, he just points things out like that often. The majority of people in this world(well maybe not the majority) can't read. The world is based largely on a feudal type system were life more or less sucks for the majority of people, at least from the outside looking in, lots of commoners doing the down and dirty work hoping that monsters don't eat them when they are out of town.

As far as fireball, he finds it incredibly comical that in 3rd edition it exerts almost no pressure, according to the spell description. (He was a long time 1st edition player)


Never seen a golem, dragons most definitely can fly, as can giant bugs. Although he did poke fun at my 220 pound aasimar being able to fly with the wings he got from the outsider wings feat, but he still lets me fly. I just have a rather large wing span to be able to hold my weight. (he has 1 level in monk so he doesn't have to deal with armor thankfully)

On a similar note isn't the physics behind a bumblebees flight technically impossible? I remembering hearing something about that once but I could be wrong. If so that could be used as a counter argument for such things.

As far as dragons flight, could always fall back on the Flight of Dragons theory where they are basically hot air balloons. :smallsmile: Although not really sure how that would work with a silver or white dragon. Technically have only ever seen a red and a green one anyway :smallsmile: also heard about a black one


Its painful at times the way he runs things, but at the same time most of it makes perfect sense when you take a step back and look at it, and it feels a bit more rewarding when you overcome certain things. Wealth by level is pretty much thrown out the window you get what you get and earn what you earn. I have a level 7 or so dwarf warlock who had close to 50,000 gold worth of stuff if not more, while I also have an ecl 10 werewolf lord barbarian who is more or less flat broke with a single magic ring which all he knows is it is some sort of ring of protection. Also a lot of smaller villages and towns can't exchange platinum because well no one there has enough money to change for it. Painful at times, yes does it make sense? Absolutely. (in all fairness he did warn me when I wanted to play a werewolf though) Also he had me and a bunch of other werewolves do bad things to and kill my fiancee the first time I changed :smallfrown: she was only 13 why did she have to follow me into the woods? :smallfrown: Yes, I think its busted too(esp considering I was 10 years older than her), one of those betrothed by your parents sort of things. I had no choice.

Its a very mature game in case you didn't notice. (the werewolf was once forced to have relations with a medusa, although she was actually pretty and had a shapely figure, I thanked her with a coup de grace while she was asleep)

Another example is that doppelgangers are a huge threat in the area, so pretty much every human settlement that is town sized or larger has wards up to detect shapechangers. Unfortunately for Mr. Werewolf that also includes him... Pain in the butt? You bet your A** is it. Does it make sense? Absolutely.


Of course he also doesn't just continuously throw CR appropriate monsters at us either, he rolls everything randomly and if something like a cr 15 comes up and we are all level 3 he will throw it out, but other than that we just roll with it, the majority of the time we fight things in the CR 5 range just because big CR monsters are not as common as lower CR monsters.

[Spuddles]

If you assume bumblebees fly like birds, then yes, the math shows that they generate insufficient lift to overcome air resistance. However, that isn't taking into account air viscosity, which matter when you are that small, as well as how bumblebees actually flap their wings- they operate more like a helicopter than a bird.

[Fax Celestis]

If you assume bumblebees fly like birds, then yes, the math shows that they generate insufficient lift to overcome air resistance. However, that isn't taking into account air viscosity, which matter when you are that small, as well as how bumblebees actually flap their wings- they operate more like a helicopter than a bird.

...and if you scale one up, not only do their exoskeletons not provide the necessary structural support to make them not dissolve into gooey puddles, they also don't have the ability to make themselves fly.

D&D doesn't care, because giant wasps are freaking awesome, and the game is about awesome, not realism.

[Flickerdart]

I'm fairly certain my DM would laugh at me if I told him my familiar can read, no matter what the rules say. He has a hard enough time accepting that all non-barbarian characters can automatically read, even more so in languages they know other than common. When I told him my aasimar could read and write celestial he was just like, really? Who taught him how? He is a realist like that.
What's so unusual about being able to read in another language? In Europe, it's normal for people to be proficient in two or three languages. Languages are really not that hard to learn, especially while you're still a child.

As for familiars...why is it unbelievable that a creature whose very life and mind are bound to a master of magic can read?

It's a shame that Fiendbond is 7th level; were it only one lower you could Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability a Sanctum version of it.

[Harrow]

...and if you scale one up, not only do their exoskeletons not provide the necessary structural support to make them not dissolve into gooey puddles, they also don't have the ability to make themselves fly.

D&D doesn't care, because giant wasps are freaking awesome, and the game is about awesome, not realism.

To be fair, giant bugs could be considered 'realistic' if you take into account D&D gravity being really wonky.

[Flickerdart]

To be fair, giant bugs could be considered 'realistic' if you take into account D&D gravity being really wonky.
Gravity isn't the problem. Scaling anything up would crush it under its own weight...but not before the lack of oxygen to the brain (due to a proportionately weaker heart) made it pass out, making it useless even if it remained structurally intact.

[Spuddles]

...and if you scale one up, not only do their exoskeletons not provide the necessary structural support to make them not dissolve into gooey puddles, they also don't have the ability to make themselves fly.

D&D doesn't care, because giant wasps are freaking awesome, and the game is about awesome, not realism.


Gravity isn't the problem. Scaling anything up would crush it under its own weight...but not before the lack of oxygen to the brain (due to a proportionately weaker heart) made it pass out, making it useless even if it remained structurally intact.

If you scale one up, it still gets to fly via the same mechanisms that propel helicopters- dynamic stall.

Giant vermin exoskeletons are also probably impregnated with cobalt & manganese polymers (adamantine/mithril) that provide far more structural integrity than you find in the typical RL arthropod. D&D energetics are way out of whack, due to magic, so giant vermin using really inefficient methods of hardening their carapace isn't really that out there.

As for organs, giant vermin would need an actual circulatory system and more active respiration. Again, really not that far out there, considering what already exists in nature.

The exoskeleton isn't necessarily impossible to get to large sizes. It didn't happen on earth because there's a fitness trough around it and moving out of it put you into competition with vertebrates who had a fitness peak there. When magic and divine creation enter the picture, fitness troughs and peaks have little meaning- you just design around or over the weak spots.