Just occurred to me that the Order has the five "corner alignments"

[Flame of Anor]

The four corners of the alignment system are represented (Roy = LG, Haley and Elan = CG, Durkon = LE, Belkar = CE), as well as the "central corner" (Vaarsuvius = TN). I thought that was interesting.

[LuPuWei]

And if, for the sake of argument, we consider blackwing Neutral Good and Scruffy Neutral Evil, with either Haley or Elan shifting to another alignment, we'll be one square shy of the whole set...

[AstralFire]

It would take a catastrophe for Haley to go CN at this point.

There is no way in hell Elan's ever being less than good in this comic. No way, no how.

[rbetieh]

And if, for the sake of argument, we consider blackwing Neutral Good and Scruffy Neutral Evil, with either Haley or Elan shifting to another alignment, we'll be one square shy of the whole set...

Circle gets the square?

Roy was almost kicked into Lawful Neutral afterlife...

[LadyEowyn]

No, Roy could have been classified as Neutral Good, but not as Lawful Neutral. It was his Lawfulness that was in question.

[UtahBrian]

It would take a catastrophe for Haley to go CN at this point.

More than a catastrophe, I'd say it's completely out of the question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html). Period.

[Dr.Epic]

More than a catastrophe, I'd say it's completely out of the question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html). Period.

For killing someone that is clearly evil, has tried to kill her in the past, will most likely try to kill her again in the future, and has shown no sign of reform?:smallconfused:

[Flame of Anor]

Yeah--while that may have been a Neutral action, it's well within the bounds of acceptability for a Good character.

[dps]

There is no way in hell Elan's ever being less than good in this comic. No way, no how.

He could possibly shift to NG, though it's not likely. I agree that CN or any other non-Good alignment is right out for him.

[Forikroder]

He could possibly shift to NG, though it's not likely. I agree that CN or any other non-Good alignment is right out for him.

i believe if he goes NG he loses his bard abilities

or jsut cant get mroe bard levels

pretty sure its the latter

[Gift Jeraff]

i believe if he goes NG he loses his bard abilities

or jsut cant get mroe bard levels

pretty sure its the latter

No, that's just if he becomes Lawful.

[Cerlis]

i believe if he goes NG he loses his bard abilities

or jsut cant get mroe bard levels

pretty sure its the latter

yea alot of classes have alignment restrictions, however most of them are basically "dont become exactly the opposite of this class." and most of them also just dont let you continue to level until you switch back.

-------------------

And to speak of this discussion, i bet its pseudo intentional. Not meaning that the alignment part is necessarily remotely intentional. But when thinking about the characters i'm sure it was more obvious that characters with true (as in "Straight and...) alignments are more interesting because of the drama of them not going into neutral territory. Its fully obvious that Elan is Chaotic Good, but his "drama" is more in him becoming an adult, than his alignment. While Haley Is Chaotic Good but obviously has some jaded outlooks that really risk her becoming CN. THis is a big deal for her because it would risk Elan's love, and indeed thats the entire reason she didnt think Elan would like her. Because of all the shady things she has done.

this is seen even more evident by the fact that you have a Neutral (Law-chaos irrelevant to this instance) woman who tried to get Elan's affections and her main problem (though she didnt have enough screen time to delve to much into them) was going away from the whole "murder mercenary" aspect of Neutrality. If it wasnt for Haley she no doubt would have been more of a "misbehaving " Haley. With Elan constantly reminding her :vaarsuvius: "And that would be wrong"

Similarly Roy has struggled with both of his alignments, though MOSTLY Good. Durkon's Lawful tendencies have been a detriment to himself and the party, while his Good Tendencies have been a saving grace. So it will be interesting how he acts when his "most positive" alignment feature is gone, while his worst one is still there.

Belkar has 'struggled" with his alignment in the sense that most of this time he's had to balance pretending to not be evil to the right people, while staying true to himself and being himself in the stabby hearts of other people only when those who wont make a big deal are around.

[NerdyKris]

Actually, he has said a reason for it, in a manner of speaking:



People with Neutral alignments tend to not go on about it all the time. Lack of talking about it does not equal lack of presence in the comic, but since there's very little to say story-wise that can't ALSO be said with at least one corner alignment, there's not much reason to bring it up.


I don't think it is the only conception of Neutral, but it certainly is a valid conception of Neutral. And one that is easy to fit into a story like this, since the Neutral people who just want to be left alone are off being left alone, away from the action. And the "balance" types would represent a whole other angle that would clutter up the narrative and muddy the issue of whether the Good team was in the right or not.

[War-Wren]

Circle gets the square?

Roy was almost kicked into Lawful Neutral afterlife...


No, Roy could have been classified as Neutral Good, but not as Lawful Neutral. It was his Lawfulness that was in question.

He was told that he would have been kicked into the True Neutral afterlife when he was being assessed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html), if he hadn't gone back for Elan.

[snowblizz]

He was told that he would have been kicked into the True Neutral afterlife when he was being assessed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html), if he hadn't gone back for Elan.

Two comics later the devas assessment is (paraphrasing) "no one would blink if I filed you as Neutral Good despite/because of what you've done" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html)

[War-Wren]

Two comics later the devas assessment is (paraphrasing) "no one would blink if I filed you as Neutral Good despite/because of what you've done" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html)

Aha, so she did. Well played :smallcool:

[Arcas Corricol]

Nope Elan probably won't go Lawful (99.999999999999%) unless he decides to do something other than bardic hobbies

[Roland Itiative]

Elan will become a Paladin as part of his plan to beat his dad.

This post is a joke.

[JSSheridan]

Yeah--while that may have been a Neutral action, it's well within the bounds of acceptability for a Good character.

Your definition is a bit different from mine then. I think Good characters would only use violence as a last resort against imminent threats. That can still be plenty broad in a magic world.


Elan will become a Paladin as part of his plan to beat his dad.

This post is a joke.

That could actually work though. He'd be more useless than he is now. :smalltongue:

[Clistenes]

Elan will become a Paladin as part of his plan to beat his dad.

This post is a joke.


That could actually work though. He'd be more useless than he is now. :smalltongue:

I'm quite sure there must be some Paladin-like Charisma-based Prestige Class around for CG characters to take.

[Kish]

I'm quite sure there must be some Paladin-like Charisma-based Prestige Class around for CG characters to take.
Holy Liberators are in Complete Divine. They're no more (or less) Charisma-based than paladins.

[Psyren]

More than a catastrophe, I'd say it's completely out of the question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html). Period.

DStP has the missing context here - Crystal fully intended to murder Haley later and indeed was actively trying during the mission to recover Roy's body. The Giant mentioned in the commentary that he messed up a little by moving all of that context to the bonus strips and making Haley seem evil when it was closer to being a neutral act.

[Sloanzilla]

Also, all three humans in the party are good, while all three non humans in the party are currently not good

[Zmeoaice]

I'm quite sure there must be some Paladin-like Charisma-based Prestige Class around for CG characters to take.

Is Dashing Swordsman based on Charisma?

[NerdyKris]

Is Dashing Swordsman based on Charisma?

Yes. It allows him to substitute his charisma bonus for his strength bonus to damage when he uses a rapier, as long as he can make a witty pun or spout a catch phrase when he attacks.

[Flame of Anor]

Your definition is a bit different from mine then. I think Good characters would only use violence as a last resort against imminent threats. That can still be plenty broad in a magic world.

By that definition, Batman and Robin Hood are both non-Good. :smallconfused:

[Kish]

By that definition, Batman and Robin Hood are both non-Good. :smallconfused:
For more relevance and less debatability, by that definition, there are no good characters in the comic.

Both Elan and Celia, the two characters who come closest, have demonstrated willingness to use violence against helpless prisoners, given sufficient provocation.

[MtlGuy]

It would take a catastrophe for Haley to go CN at this point.

There is no way in hell Elan's ever being less than good in this comic. No way, no how.

Yeah, Elan has a heart of gold, he's too dumb to really lie, he looks for the best in everyone and he doesn't even drink*.


*As far as I can tell. The only time I recall him ordering a drink it was that diet soda he intended to pay for with '30 feet of movement per round'.

[Flame of Anor]

Yeah, Elan has a heart of gold, he's too dumb to really lie, he looks for the best in everyone and he doesn't even drink.

And even he punched Kubota in the face with no dire necessity for doing so.

[littlebum2002]

For killing someone that is clearly evil, has tried to kill her in the past, will most likely try to kill her again in the future, and has shown no sign of reform?:smallconfused:


Yeah--while that may have been a Neutral action, it's well within the bounds of acceptability for a Good character.

WOW, a comment that could only be made when talking about D&D.

"No, she's a good person. She kills people in cold blood, but only BAD people."

[JennTora]

WOW, a comment that could only be made when talking about D&D.

"No, she's a good person. She kills people in cold blood, but only BAD people."

People that intend to murder her in the near future and have actively attempted to murder her in the past. I don't think self defense qualifies as an Evil act.

[JSSheridan]

By that definition, Batman and Robin Hood are both non-Good. :smallconfused:

Careless use of violence disregards the well being of other persons, and I'd call those acts evil.

[Kish]

I think Good characters would only use violence as a last resort against imminent threats.


Careless use of violence disregards the well being of other persons, and I'd call those acts evil.
So...would you say, then, that a Good character is by definition one who has never committed an evil act, and correspondingly there are none in the comic? Or is "violence other than as a last resort against imminent threats is an evil act" an amendment to "Good characters would only use violence as a last resort against imminent threats"?

[Flame of Anor]

WOW, a comment that could only be made when talking about D&D.

"No, she's a good person. She kills people in cold blood, but only BAD people."

Crystal was planning to kill her. Your argument only works against people like the Sapphire Guard members who killed goblin children.

[wootage]

WOW, a comment that could only be made when talking about D&D.

"No, she's a good person. She kills people in cold blood, but only BAD people."


Helen Tasker: Have you ever killed anyone?
Harry: Yeah, but they were all bad.

(Quote from True Lies the movie)

[VanIsleKnight]

Killing Crystal was at best a Neutral act for Haley due to the circumstances. Any Good character is capable of performing that act, but it will not grant "Good Points".

[Taelas]

Seeing as Crystal is an assassin and regularly kills people Bozzok asks her to, killing her could easily be a Good act.

I do not disagree that in Haley's case, it was a Neutral act, but to say categorically that it is not possible for it to be Good is wrong.

JSSheridan:

Good characters protect innocents, and in so doing, they may kill those who threaten them. This is entirely in keeping with the alignment. Even if it is not the "last resort."

It may be a more Good act to accomplish said protection while preserving even the lives of those who threaten the innocent, but that fact does not alter the rest.

[Mastikator]

No, that's just if he becomes Lawful.

No, he wouldn't lose his Barb abilities if he became lawful. Bards can't fall. Elan wouldn't be able to advance his bard levels if he became lawful, but he wouldn't lose anything.
Barbarians have the same deal.

Edit- fixed brainfart.

[Kish]

Elan cannot become Good any more than he can become Chaotic.

[Cerussite]

No, he wouldn't lose his Barb abilities if he became lawful. Bards can't fall. Elan wouldn't be able to advance his bard levels if he became lawful, but he wouldn't lose anything.
Barbarians have the same deal.

Edit- fixed brainfart.

Not quite.


Ex-Barbarians
A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian.

[Liliet]

WOW, a comment that could only be made when talking about D&D.

"No, she's a good person. She kills people in cold blood, but only BAD people."

It's actually "No, she's a good person. She killed a woman in cold blood, but only because she's an assassin who had spent a lot of time and efforts trying to kill her. She's no Jesus, sorry."