Tier of a Character With Every Feat?

[Donox]

What does the playground think the tier of a character be with every single feat on the chassis of a monk would be? Feats can only to be taken once (so you can't take all of the incarnum, Tome of Battle, or binding feats countless times to gain a ludicrous number of options).

Personally, I think the lack of a good action economy kills it. However, it certainly has enough all of the options to put it into mid to low tier three.

Donox

[eggynack]

By my recollection, a character with every feat was deemed to be around tier three, so your assessment is likely accurate. There's probably some upward mobility though, depending on how the guy uses the leaderships. In any case, without leadership stuff, he can't really be higher than tier three, and with all the feats, he can't really be lower than tier three, so it works out alright.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If he's an Illumian, he would be able to get 9th level spells via feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8753936&postcount=35).

[Curmudgeon]

The restriction is each feat once only, so that's not going to work.

[lsfreak]

By my recollection, a character with every feat was deemed to be around tier three, so your assessment is likely accurate

I believe it was determined to be T3, if you're still limited to a fighter's bonus feats. If you can just arbitrarily take every (non-epic) feat once, without knowing exactly what shenanigans you can pull, I would take a random guess and say you might be able to hit gamebreaking... at the very least, I'd wager a higher T3 than most/all other T3s. If you can take each one, say, three times, I wouldn't doubt someone could break T2 with it.

[maximus25]

Does that count Dragon Mag feats?

Because one of those turns you into an elf which is then killed by Kobolds, so....

[eggynack]

I believe it was determined to be T3, if you're still limited to a fighter's bonus feats. If you can just arbitrarily take every (non-epic) feat once, without knowing exactly what shenanigans you can pull, I would take a random guess and say you might be able to hit gamebreaking... at the very least, I'd wager a higher T3 than most/all other T3s. If you can take each one, say, three times, I wouldn't doubt someone could break T2 with it.
Maybe. This topic comes up so many times, in so many different permutations, that it's sometimes hard to remember what the general consensus is on the topic in particular. I don't think I've seen it attached to a monk chassis though, so that's slightly odd. In any case, most of these "Here's a pile of feats" discussions tend to end up in tier three, so it's a reasonable guess to make before testing within the idiosyncrasies of the particular topic.

[TiaC]

So you'd have Massive HP due to Psionic Body, 17~ essentia, 6PP, probably +8 or so to saves, and large plusses to hit and damage.

[JoshuaZ]

Question: do you need to meet the prerequsites for the feat to benefit from it? This may substantially reduce the power level, since many feats require skill points to get or use, and you aren't going to have high skill points (you get an extra 5 from Open Minded and maybe a small number from more obscure feats). Similar remarks apply to feats that have minimum ability scores. I'm going to assume for now that those won't matter for our purposes.


So you'd have Massive HP due to Psionic Body, 17~ essentia, 6PP, probably +8 or so to saves, and large plusses to hit and damage.

By itself that's not going to get you beyond what amounts to a very broken T4 since it will make you great in direct combat, but not have much else.

That said, I suspect that if one actually looks at the psionic feats along feats from core, they may be enough to push one up to T3 with just a few more, since one will have helpful things in a variety of different situations. Ghost Attack, Aligned Attack, Psionic Dodge, Mental Leap, Up the Walls and the various fighter bonus feats (like power attack) will make you very good at combat even in combat situations which you normally can't do very well, (e.g. flying or incorporeal enemies).

Inquisitor would be helpful in social situations. We maybe should discount Leadership (because then you just can get a T1 cohort.) You will get a +2 bonus to a lot of skills from the various feats that do that, so in situations requiring skill checks, you at least won't suck. But if this is T3 it is very much on the lower end of T3. So what would push this up to T3? Well, the skill trick feats and luck feats from Complete Scoundrel will mean you can probably pretend to be a skill monkey somewhat well. But this is still only arguable, since even the standard skill monkey rogue is itself just T4.

That said, I think that the aberrant feats from Lords of Madness, together with the essentia feats and a tiny bit of other stuff pushes one up to T3. The aberrant feats give you a bunch of nice bonuses to combat) (but you already rule combat, so who cares), but more importantly let you fly which matters both in combat (even with really good jump checks) and matters in a lot of non-combat situations. But you then get better flight from Improved Flight (in Complete Adventurer), and also from CAdv you get Jack of All Trades (so you can be sure you can actually use all those skills you have bonuses to), a few other goodies, and can then use the truenaming feats to get a few of the truename lexicon things that are useful for out of combat stuff (so you can just keep doing it until you hit the DC). You also get the binder feats that get you access to rudimentary binding.

That looks a lot like T3 to me.

[Curmudgeon]

Question: do you need to meet the prerequsites for the feat to benefit from it? This may substantially reduce the power level, since many feats require skill points to get or use, and you aren't going to have high skill points (you get an extra 5 from Open Minded and maybe a small number from more obscure feats). Similar remarks apply to feats that have minimum ability scores.
What that would mean is, though you start with 1x every feat there is, you don't get to use every feat immediately. You'll unlock the power of more and more feats as you gain the necessary qualifications with advancing levels — pretty much the normal course for a D&D class.

[JoshuaZ]

What that would mean is, though you start with 1x every feat there is, you don't get to use every feat immediately. You'll unlock the power of more and more feats as you gain the necessary qualifications with advancing levels — pretty much the normal course for a D&D class.

In that case, restrictions on total skill points and maximum ability scores is going to act to massively restrict how strong this can be. You'll be completely broken at level 1 (just from the psionic feats and aberrant feats that don't require much of anything), but by the time you'll get to level 8 or 9, the lack of skill points and high ability scores is going to put serious dampers on which feats you can actually end up using.

[Curmudgeon]

... but by the time you'll get to level 8 or 9, the lack of skill points and high ability scores is going to put serious dampers on which feats you can actually end up using.
There's nothing which prevents the character from being Human, in which case they'll already be benefiting from Able Learner and a bunch of feats which add some class skills:

Education
Skill Knowledge
Knowledge Devotion
Martial Study
Apprentice
City Slicker
Ecclesiarch
But you actually get quite a bit more at higher levels even without skill ranks. Since you mentioned level 9, that's when you'll get Summon Nature's Ally V as a SLA from Fey Legacy (Complete Mage, page 43), which opens up a whole bunch of Druid feats which require you to be able to cast any Summon Nature's Ally spell. The basis for this from page 72 of Complete Arcane:
SPECIFIC SPELL REQUIREMENTS
A requirement based on a specific spell measures whether the character or creature in question is capable of producing the necessary effect, and as such, invocations and spell-like abilities that generate the relevant effect meet the requirements for specific spell knowledge. In particular Nightbringer Initiate (Faiths of Eberron, page 147) becomes active, and it says:
In addition, you can cast the following spells as if they were on the druid spell list at the indicated level. Note that this feat doesn't require you to have access to the Druid spell list to select or use it, and it doesn't say it adds the spells to the Druid spell list; it just says you can cast the spells at the indicated level. There's a list of 9 spells labeled 1st level to 9th level. It doesn't say spell level or Druid level, so the only option for a non-spellcaster has to be character level. You get a level 9 spell (Gate), just from feats, when you hit level 9. (Fey Legacy makes your caster level = your character level, so you've got that covered.)

Now, clearly this is an abuse of a poorly-worded feat. But there are literally thousands of feats, some of which will act oddly when all feat combinations are possible.

[JoshuaZ]

There's nothing which prevents the character from being Human, in which case they'll already be benefiting from Able Learner and a bunch of feats which add some class skills:

Education
Skill Knowledge
Knowledge Devotion
Martial Study
Apprentice
City Slicker
Ecclesiarch


Most of those will give you class skills. They won't give you skill points to put them in.



But you actually get quite a bit more at higher levels even without skill ranks. Since you mentioned level 9, that's when you'll get Summon Nature's Ally V as a SLA from Fey Legacy (Complete Mage, page 43), which opens up a whole bunch of Druid feats which require you to be able to cast any Summon Nature's Ally spell. The basis for this from page 72 of Complete Arcane: In particular Nightbringer Initiate (Faiths of Eberron, page 147) becomes active, and it says: Note that this feat doesn't require you to have access to the Druid spell list to select or use it, and it doesn't say it adds the spells to the Druid spell list; it just says you can cast the spells at the indicated level. There's a list of 9 spells labeled 1st level to 9th level. It doesn't say spell level or Druid level, so the only option for a non-spellcaster has to be character level. You get a level 9 spell (Gate), just from feats, when you hit level 9. (Fey Legacy makes your caster level = your character level, so you've got that covered.)

Now, clearly this is an abuse of a poorly-worded feat. But there are literally thousands of feats, some of which will act oddly when all feat combinations are possible.

The point about Fey Legacy is a good one, since summon spells are very useful. But I don't think that any reasonable interpretation of Nightbring Initiate would help here: the obvious response would be that yes, you can cast it is as soon as you get some class to do so. And trying to take advantage of poorly written feats is less than a helpful way to answer the question. That said, your point about Fey Legacy is a good one. So this may end up getting to T3.

[Chronos]

Expanded Knowledge could give you a power known, and Psicarnum Infusion could give you the power points you need to use it (including tricks to recharge those power points). All that's missing now is a manifester level, but I'm pretty sure there are feats that give that, too.

There are also tricks to get spellcasting via feats. Usually, they're just a single cantrip heightened up to 9th level, but toss in all of the bloodline feats, and maybe Mother Cyst or Cerebrosis, and you get a bunch more spells known that you can cast the same way. Then, toss in Arcane Disciple for the domain of your choice. If there's any one spell that you want that's not on any of those lists, Extra Spell has you covered.

Put it all together, and you've basically got any single psionic power you want usable a couple of times per encounter, a wide list of spells including any one or two you want usable 1/day, and a bunch of other miscellaneous abilities (your choice of soulmeld, martial maneuver, some low-level utterances, etc.). This looks like a tier 2, to me.

[Person_Man]

Couple of things:

The book keeping on such a character would be pretty much impossible. Last time I checked, there were 3304 Feats published by WotC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats).

Some number of them have mutually exclusive pre-reqs, such as requiring a certain race or alignment. So you couldn't use all of them without a class ability that allowed you to ignore them.

There is a difference between Tier and power level. Someone with 3304 Feats would have a ridiculous game breaking power level (especially at low levels). They'd deal massive damage, almost always hit, and insane AC and other defenses. But they still wouldn't be able to use divinations, Summons, teleportation, and other reality altering magic which allows them to fulfill any role.

If you actually wanted to do something like this but more plausible in a homebrew situation, it'd be pretty easy. Full BAB, all strong saves, all armor and weapons, d12 hit die. You get 1 Bonus Feat per level. You can change every Bonus Feat you have after 10 minutes of meditation. You cannot select the same Bonus Feat more then once, even if the Feat otherwise allows you to select it more then once. Done.

[JaronK]

So... does he get Epic Spellcasting then? And the various epic metamagic feats?

JaronK

[Curmudgeon]

So... does he get Epic Spellcasting then? And the various epic metamagic feats?
The answer should be the same as for every other feat: the feats can be used when the qualifications are met. Unless it's a sufficiently old Dragon character (including of course any aged Kobold considering they've got Dragonwrought with all the other feats) that's when they hit level 21.

[Lans]

But they still wouldn't be able to use divinations, Summons, teleportation, and other reality altering magic which allows them to fulfill any role.
Actually the all feat guy should have access to divinations, summons and teleportation

[137beth]

Which traits should you pick with additional traits? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits)
Something to boost magic, presumably...


...

Do Mythic feats from MA count? They don't really work like feats since you can't select them as normal feats gained from levels (only from mythic tiers), but getting every mythic feat (many of which are upgrades to nonmythic feats) would be pretty darn good.

Either way, I think the real determining factor is how easily you can get epic feats to work. Specifically epic leadership and legendary commander.