Could you be tier 1 without spellcasting?

[Devronq]

Just asking for fun as i see lots of threads asking what tier something would be. Lets say you were a gestalt class that was every single non casting non psionic class all at once. So no paladin ranger wizard psion anything that was psionic or conventional spellcasting. But you were all the TOB, incarnium, binder, martial or all other classes like this all combined into one. Basically is everything non magical all at once enough to keep up with a wizard?

(also for purposes of this question you are not capable of gaining any psionic or spell like abilities through any method, although UMD and magic items are all ok)

[ryu]

Do Ex abilities count as spellcasting for this purpose? If no than I could see it. How about supernatural? If not than also could probably do it. If neither I'm not thinking so.

[Grod_The_Giant]

We were kicking this around on the homebrew forums, recently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303759). The answer is probably "no, not without writing something totally new and extremely broken."

Would the super-gestalt class be powerful? Absolutely. Would it be broken? Certainly-- Warblade//Incarnate//Factotum alone would be absolutely stupid. You could do absolutely anything in the game, and do it well... but not as well as a spellcaster. Because despite everything you can do, a caster can still drop that great wyrm with one shivering touch, or solve that murder mystery with one contact other plane.

EDIT: oh, apart from the Artificer, I guess. Artificer is T1... because it can effectively cast any spell in the game using magic items. B'dum-ching.

[Jack_Simth]

Just asking for fun as i see lots of threads asking what tier something would be. Lets say you were a gestalt class that was every single non casting non psionic class all at once. So no paladin ranger wizard psion anything that was psionic or conventional spellcasting. But you were all the TOB, incarnium, binder, martial or all other classes like this all combined into one. Basically is everything non magical all at once enough to keep up with a wizard?

(also for purposes of this question you are not capable of gaining any psionic or spell like abilities through any method, although UMD and magic items are all ok)
Artificer abilities? Yes. Artificer-lite via Warlock? Potentially.

[eggynack]

Does an artificer count as having spellcasting? Infusion is explicitly not spellcasting, and crafting stuff isn't really spellcasting either. I guess it depends on whether you count infusions as more or less castery than psionics.

[JoshuaZ]

There's been a lot of prior disagreement on this. I suspect that it would be effectively tier 1 if you allowed spell-like abilities or pseudocasting like the factoum. The factotum can duplicate a lot of spells and can choose how to do so. The binder can also do a lot of similar stuff. Between the two of them, one has a lot of the abilities of a T1 caster. The rogue, fighter and tome of battle will handle most mundane combat (and the swordsage will help duplicate a few more spells). They won't be able to prepare as many careful contingencies- a wizard can break the game one way while being ready to at least handle a few other situations that come up.

However, ruling out spell-like abilities and spells in general is going to make this extremely tough. That means that the only T2 you have is effectively the binder, which is on the low end of T2. You'll get the Tome of Battle fun but that's not going to be nearly enough to push you up into T1. There are a lot of things that a T1 needs to be able to do given the preparation that you can't. You can't planeshift or engage in large scale teleportation. You can't have a lot of minions simultaneously (you can get a few at once at high levels, and the binder can customize on the fly what they are, but the total number won't be that high), you don't have much to do that does mind control, and until the very highest levels, you'll have a lot of trouble communicating great distances. At level 20 you'll be broken because of truenaming (gate at will is ridiculous) but before that you'll be an overpowered T2 who will be able to handle a lot of situations but won't be able to pull the "give me 8 hours and I've solved it" that is the hallmark of the T1.

[JaronK]

A t1 non caster would be possible, but you'd have absolutely silly Ex abilities as you get into the higher levels. Let's come up with a few!

Charming Visage (Ex): You're so charming that everyone around you just wants to be your friend. Every creature with a mind that gets within 30' of you must make a will save (DC 10+1/2 class level +Cha mod) or they must increase their starting attitude towards you by one step. Additionally, you can make diplomacy checks as a standard action without penalties and may always take 10 on these checks.

Leap of the Heavens (Ex): You have mastered the mighty technique of "Jump Good." As a full round action, you may leap from any one point from which you can see the sky to any other point where the sky is visible that you can either see right now or have ever been to. You may also fly for one round at a time at a speed of 120'.

Master Craftsman (Ex): Your talent for crafting equipment and goods is legendary. Add your class level to all craft checks, and multiply your progress per day or per week when crafting by your class level squared. Additionally, you may craft magic items if you take the appropriate feats as though you had a caster level equal to your class level, but you'll need someone else to supply any required spells.

Walk it off (Ex): Once per encounter, you may take a full round action to heal up to half your total number of hitpoints and remove up to your class level in negative conditions (such as dazzled, nauseated, etc). You may do this even if one of these conditions prevents you from taking a full round action normally.

Slay the Horde (Ex): As a full round action, you may make a single melee attack against every character (friend and foe!) within twice your normal reach. Instead of you making an attack roll, everyone within twice your reach must make a reflex save (DC 10+1/2 class level + Str) or be hit by a standard melee attack from you. If you use Power Attack for this, lower their save DC instead of lowering your attack bonus.

Intimidating Visage (Ex): Your fearsome powers are, well, pretty darn fearsome. You may make intimidate checks to demoralize foes from a range of 10' per class level. When you successfully demoralize your foe, your target is Shaken and Sickened for class level rounds. If your foe rolls a 1 on their save, they die of fright instantly.

Useful Tidbits (Ex): Once per day, you may simply know any one fact of your choice. This can be facts like "what's the secret weakness of that monster?" or "who murdered the king?"

JaronK

[Fable Wright]

Incarnate//Binder might get close to tier 1, if not quite getting there. It does have swappable options for getting answers to pretty much anything that can be thrown at you, but I'm not sure if it has the critical mass of powerful options to make it a tier 1.

[ben-zayb]

Absence of Spell-like abilities instantly negate the Factotum's, Shadowcaster's, and the Warlock's Sps. Is this intentional? An epic warlock may have access to Shades Sp at will, by the way.

Oh, and the Truenamer is Tier :smallannoyed: if I remember correctly

[supermonkeyjoe]

Tome of Battle and the maneuvers system is about as close as you can get but you'd need some really extreme new maneuvers to be able to reach T1 things like swing your sword to gate in a solar, strike a pose to shapechange into anything you want, etc.

[Gemini476]

A t1 non caster would be possible, but you'd have absolutely silly Ex abilities as you get into the higher levels. Let's come up with a few!

-snip-

JaronK

Strike True(Ex): Once per day, you may take a standard action to make your sword strike true. If you manage to hit your opponent with a melee touch attack with your weapon, the opponent must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 class level + Str) or die instantly as they are cleaved in twain. On a successful save, resolve the attack as if you had rolled a critical hit.

Weave Cleaver (Ex): As an immediate action, you may dispel any spell that targets you. Use your BAB as your Caster Level.

This Is The Sword That Will Pierce The Heavens (Ex): Once per day, you may make a melee attack versus the Astral (AC 35). If you succeed in striking the Astral, resolve the attack as if you had cast Gate, although any creature who is called does not have to obey you. You may attempt to demoralize the called creature as it is called. If the demoralization is successful, it will obey your orders.

Behold The Wrath Of Gaia (Ex): Once per week, you may call the Tarrasque to you with a one-hour prayer to the Material Plane itself. It will serve you as an Animal Companion until it is released, although you must succeed on a DC 40 Handle Animal check to make it stop eating the peasantry. If your are not on the Material Plane, or the local Tarrasque has been killed by a Wish, you cannot call the Tarrasque to you.

Dead Magic (Ex): The area within 10ft of you acts like a Dead Magic Zone, except that even instantaneous Conjuration(Creation) effects fail. An Initiate of Mystra who tries to cast into your Dead Magic must succeed on a DC 20 class level check or fail. You may suppress and reactivate this ability as a free action.



...You know what? This is more fun than I thought it would be. Although as it turns out I'm also a worse homebrewer than I thought I would be.

[ahenobarbi]

I think so. You get binder abilities to get enough raw power (it's T2) and enough T3s to give you necessary versatility. I think at most levels of optimization you'd be ahead of T1 casters (and I don't think anything above using candle of invocation to get infinite wishes matters).

[Erik Vale]

Yes.
Once a Warlock hit's 12, and then earns a little XP, they can craft infinite XP/GP loops [XP through... Well, lots of things. GP through Merchantile Background and selling things every now and again], and create All the Scrolls. Even the ones of wizard spells that are yet to be invented.

I don't know anything about artificers though.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Binder is only classified as T2 because of the vestige that gives you Summon Monster 1/5 rounds. And I'm honestly not sure that should count-- it gives you a lot of versatility, and you get indirect access to a boatload of SLAs, but... it's still not a patch on what you can get out of a Planar Ally or Gate spell.

Incarnate//Binder will let you do just about everything, but lacks the pure power of a well-played caster.

[Fable Wright]

Binder is only classified as T2 because of the vestige that gives you Summon Monster 1/5 rounds. And I'm honestly not sure that should count-- it gives you a lot of versatility, and you get indirect access to a boatload of SLAs, but... it's still not a patch on what you can get out of a Planar Ally or Gate spell.

Incarnate//Binder will let you do just about everything, but lacks the pure power of a well-played caster.

Well, let's look at the definition of Tier 1, shall we?

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.
Binder//Incarnate can do absolutely everything, though in most cases not better than classes that specialize in that thing. They can't solve most encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought, but that's not a requirement of tier 1s. World changing powers? With sufficient creativity or the right summons, maybe. Campaign breaking? With access to the online vestiges, they are able to make Knowledge checks to know as much as most Diviners, have just the right summon to deal with a given problem, and can use soulmelds for extremely powerful defensive abilities given preparation. Seems like everyone's problems with tier 1s breaking the game. It doesn't have the raw power of spells like Solid Fog, sure, but it might be able to eke in under the versatility aspect and just be a very, very low tier 1.

[ahenobarbi]

Binder is only classified as T2 because of the vestige that gives you Summon Monster 1/5 rounds. And I'm honestly not sure that should count-- it gives you a lot of versatility, and you get indirect access to a boatload of SLAs, but... it's still not a patch on what you can get out of a Planar Ally or Gate spell.

Incarnate//Binder will let you do just about everything, but lacks the pure power of a well-played caster.

A class doesn't have to match wizard to be T1, it jut needs to fulfill definition


Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Non-magic, non-psionic omnistalt IMHO can cover that with ease:

It gets d12HP, full BAB, sneak attack, skrimish, many bonus feats (fighter, monk, samurai,...), rage, pounce,... that's enough to make you competent with more than one combat style, DR/-, maneuvers, ... which is enough to lat you effectively handle combat situations.
High skills (8/level) from "any skill", warlock invocations, intimidation boosts (Zhentraim fighter), draconic aura will let you handle social interactions effectively.
Invisibility, etheralness (ninja), high skills should help you with sneaking effectively.


After that you have leftover invocations, vestiges, true speak, feats, and incarnum stuff to fill in what you feel needs more power.

[awa]

it may not be able to break the setting to the degree a wizard could but that's not required of being tier 1.

It will be better at any role even then classes specifically specialize in that role because it is that class as well as other classes with abilities that synergies with that role.

[Chronos]

The way I would define the tiers:

0: Has access to multiple game-breakingly-powerful abilities, applicable in a wide variety of circumstances, and has access to all of them at all times. Beholder Mage lives here, and a few classes that are ordinarily Tier 1 or 2 can reach this level with extreme optimization.

1: Has access to multiple game-breakingly-powerful abilities, applicable in a wide variety of circumstances, and can change which set of abilities it has every day. This is the home of the wizard, cleric, druid, archivist, and artificer.

2: Has access to multiple game-breakingly-powerful abilities, applicable in a wide variety of circumstances, but can only select a limited subset of those abilities, and cannot easily change that subset. The sorcerer is the classic example, as are the psion and wilder.

Tiers 3 and below are harder to define, because there are two different ways you can go down from here: You can decrease the power level, or you can decrease the versatility. It might be instructive to construct a two-dimensional tier system, for this reason. For instance, Binder and Beguiler are both generally regarded as Tier 3, but for very different reasons: A Binder can, like a tier 1, change out its abilities every day from a fairly large list, but it's not tier 1 because none of its abilities have the game-breaking level of power that tier 1s do. A Beguiler, on the other hand, is like a tier 2 in that it has a set of powerful options that are always available to it, but falls short in that it doesn't have a wide variety of those options.

Note that I would not actually consider a Binder with the online vestiges to be a tier 2: It is, instead, somewhere between a tier 1 and a tier 3. The difference between a binder and a tier 1 is the power, and vestiges like Zcerryl grant more power (though still not as much as T1). It's approaching T1 from a different direction than T2 classes do.

[JoshuaZ]

A class doesn't have to match wizard to be T1, it jut needs to fulfill definition



Non-magic, non-psionic omnistalt IMHO can cover that with ease:

It gets d12HP, full BAB, sneak attack, skrimish, many bonus feats (fighter, monk, samurai,...), rage, pounce,... that's enough to make you competent with more than one combat style, DR/-, maneuvers, ... which is enough to lat you effectively handle combat situations.
High skills (8/level) from "any skill", warlock invocations, intimidation boosts (Zhentraim fighter), draconic aura will let you handle social interactions effectively.
Invisibility, etheralness (ninja), high skills should help you with sneaking effectively.


After that you have leftover invocations, vestiges, true speak, feats, and incarnum stuff to fill in what you feel needs more power.

Not really enough by itself. How are you going to either teleport, planeshift, or have massive armies of minions on command? These are both basic things a T1 needs to be able to do. If one included factotum this would be the case because they can duplicate spells albeit a few levels below. But without that, a lot of things one expects from a T1 to handle they won't be able to. At say level 15, a T1 should be able to pop over to another continent have a conference or pick up some object and pop back over if not the same day, at least the next day. This is a major part of what makes T1s in that tier: they can negate largescale plots and obstacles.

This would be closer to a T1 than anything else, but still wouldn't be a genuine T1.

[ahenobarbi]

Not really enough by itself. How are you going to either teleport, planeshift, or have massive armies of minions on command? These are both basic things a T1 needs to be able to do. If one included factotum this would be the case because they can duplicate spells albeit a few levels below. But without that, a lot of things one expects from a T1 to handle they won't be able to. At say level 15, a T1 should be able to pop over to another continent have a conference or pick up some object and pop back over if not the same day, at least the next day. This is a major part of what makes T1s in that tier: they can negate largescale plots and obstacles.

This would be closer to a T1 than anything else, but still wouldn't be a genuine T1.

Simple. Summon monster and diplomance it to join you (ofcource you can do this only to monsters that have planeshift). Have your minions teleport you around.

[JoshuaZ]

Simple. Summon monster and diplomance it to join you (ofcource you can do this only to monsters that have planeshift). Have your minions teleport you around.

This is at best extremely dubious. It isn't at all clear in 3.5 where the summoned monsters come from or if they are anywhere near enough to rejoin you. That's connected to their highly generic nature. A major reason the T1s and the T2s are up there is they don't need to deal with DMs approving such questionable things.

[Gemini476]

Simple. Summon monster and diplomance it to join you (ofcource you can do this only to monsters that have planeshift). Have your minions teleport you around.

Summon Monster does not allow teleportation. The summons are explicitly banned from doing so, in fact, as well as using planar travel and summoning.

Actually, that's another thing that you (probably) need to be Tier 1: Planar Travel. Sure, you can get it as a non-spellcaster Truenamer 20, but that goes directly against the spirit of the idea.

[Fable Wright]

Summon Monster does not allow teleportation. The summons are explicitly banned from doing so, in fact, as well as using planar travel and summoning.

Actually, that's another thing that you (probably) need to be Tier 1: Planar Travel. Sure, you can get it as a non-spellcaster Truenamer 20, but that goes directly against the spirit of the idea.

Incarnate can do it by binding Planar Chausible to the Soul Chakra, and they're definitely not a spellcaster.

[ahenobarbi]

Summon Monster does not allow teleportation. The summons are explicitly banned from doing so, in fact, as well as using planar travel and summoning.

You only diplomance them while summoned. After a fer rounds they travel back to you.

Although JoshuaZ raised point that it might not be doable by RAW (I'm checking...).

[awa]

do druids have long range teleport or the ability to have bigger armies then our super gestalt? They are tier 1.
he has zombies and short range teleport from warlock and summons from binder

[JaronK]

do druids have long range teleport or the ability to have bigger armies then our super gestalt? They are tier 1.
he has zombies and short range teleport from warlock and summons from binder

Binder summons are Sp, so that's not going to be allowed. And IIRC Warlocks get only one Zombie at a time... and isn't that also Sp?

With that said, our super gestalt would have Warlock item creation with Marshal Cha to Cha checks, so his UMD powers would be very impressive. He'd also have jaw dropping Diplomancy abilities via Naberius, Marshal, and Warlock... he could easily get armies with his "take 10 to Diplomacy checks and do them as a Standard Action and also get a +6+Cha bonus to Diplomacy" thing. Combined with the Bardic Fascinate power so they have to stop and listen...

Also, yes, Druids can do that.

JaronK

[Grod_The_Giant]

Druids get pretty potent summons via spontaneous SLA. They can get long-range transport via Wind Walk and Word of Recall.

[Fable Wright]

Binder summons are Sp, so that's not going to be allowed. And IIRC Warlocks get only one Zombie at a time... and isn't that also Sp?
Incarnates are limited to one zombie at a time, but it's a super-zombie and not a spell-like ability. Warlocks can have as many as they have the Onyx for. If they use their spell-like ability without the material component, the Zombies only last a few minutes.

Also, all Binder abilities are Su abilities by default, and nothing from the Summon Alien ability of Zceryll indicates that it's changed to an SLA. Where are you getting Binder summons being Sp from?

[Fax Celestis]

You only diplomance them while summoned. After a fer rounds they travel back to you.

Although JoshuaZ raised point that it might not be doable by RAW (I'm checking...).

Summons do not work that way. What you're thinking of is Calling spells.

[JaronK]

Also, all Binder abilities are Su abilities by default, and nothing from the Summon Alien ability of Zceryll indicates that it's changed to an SLA. Where are you getting Binder summons being Sp from?

Huh, never noticed that it was Su. Okay, well, that certainly kicks things up.

JaronK

[ahenobarbi]

Summons do not work that way. What you're thinking of is Calling spells.

I guess so. I mixed up a bit with summoning specific creature.

[faircoin]

Trivially, with arcane swordsage you are tier 1 without spellcasting, since all your "spells" are actually maneuvers.

In the true spirit of the question, though, I doubt it. Being an Aleax would do it, but that's not even a class.

[Friv]

Using existing classes, probably not.

You could do it with a class that used "narrative" powers instead of actual powers, because you wouldn't be spellcasting, things would just be "happening to work" the way you wanted them to.

If you had powers like: "Main Character (Ex): Your narrative is too important to be removed by mooks. No NPC who does not have a name and backstory can reduce you below half HP", or "I Know That Guy (Ex): Use this ability once per session to declare that an NPC you have just encountered is an old friend from a prior adventure. Their attitude becomes Helpful, regardless of the situation", or "Get Down Here! (Ex): Use when a villain is escaping. They immediately fail to escape due to a contrived coincidence".

If you had a set of those abilities, and you could shift them around "as the story demanded", swapping them out a few times per session...

That would be Tier 1.

[cerin616]

A class doesn't have to match wizard to be T1, it jut needs to fulfill definition


Actually...


as as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes.

Yes you do.

[ahenobarbi]

Actually...



Yes you do.

Notice "nearly" in the description :smalltongue:

[cerin616]

Notice "nearly" in the description :smalltongue:

Yea, but doesnt that mean "If you can do everything, but dont come close to a wizard" it means you are a tier 2? or in other words "You need to come close to being a wizard"?

[Gemini476]

Yea, but doesnt that mean "If you can do everything, but dont come close to a wizard" it means you are a tier 2? or in other words "You need to come close to being a wizard"?

"You have the potential to do anything, but not in one build"

[awa]

druids cannot do every thing a wizard can do are they not tier 1?

the tier system are supposed to be optimization and level independent and our super gestalt will wipe the floor with a wizard in terms of power and versatility at low level and low optimization.

[ryu]

Independent of optimization doesn't mean assume low optimization. It means keep track of as many agreed upon levels of it as possible and see where the classes fall at all points in the curve.

[Gemini476]

druids cannot do every thing a wizard can do are they not tier 1?

the tier system are supposed to be optimization and level independent and our super gestalt will wipe the floor with a wizard in terms of power and versatility at low level and low optimization.

If a druid can not do everything one day, he can get a new set of spells the next day. That's the crux of the argument: a Sorcerer or Psion must choose which spells/powers they know, and have a hard time changing them. A Wizard knows all the spells and needs 8 hours of sleep to change them.

And Druids are pretty much the worst argument for "not Tier 1" ever, given that they are a bear riding a bear summoning bears. They're BFC, Utility and Two Fighters at the same time. The Wizard has more direct power, but the druid is still very solidly Tier 1. Oh, and a OmniGestalt still needs to care about six seperate ability scores. The Druid doesn't.


And it's not completely independent of optimization: at sufficiently low levels of optimization, the Fighter wins by virtue of doing more damage in three turns with a 1d8(4.5) longsword and shield than the Wizard does with 1d4+1(3.5) Magic Missile + 1d10(5.5) Crossbow. He survives longer, too, even if the Wizard took Toughness.
(That's 13.5+3*STR vs. 9 damage, for those counting. Subtract 4.5+STR from the Fighter if assuming two turns, and add it {as well as 5.5 damage for the Wizard} if assuming four turns.)

[awa]

The argument was made that a tier one class most be able to do anything a wizard can do.

the druid cannot do every thing a wizard can do.

therefore either being tier 1 is based on more then just the ability to copy a wizard or the druid is not actually tier 1.

At mid levels the super gestalt has far more option then the wizard every day all day long barring cheese. The fact that the wizard eventually starts getting stuff that he cant match does not change that through most of their career the super gestalt is far stronger across the board.

[Shining Wrath]

By definition of Tier I, no.

[zlefin]

It also depends somewhat on how you define the tier levels origins.

I view it as a kind of reverse engineering, in that:
Observe what tiers are in play, at various similar optimization levels;
then Try to see what kinds of things are the source of that.

Under such a system, those in the same tier would have similar ability to contribute; those higher/lower have more/less; and in general, a tier-level difference of 2 makes it hard for the lower tier to contribute, and greater tier differences make the lower tier terribly outpowered.

Under such a method, it's not that tier 1's are INNATELY defined by their vast array of mutable powerful options; but rather, when we look at the characters that are empirically at that tier, they seem to have that.


The question is whether you start by assessing the tiers empirically, then observe what properties they have; or if you start with the tier definitions, then matching properties.
Different people have different opinions on the matter, I favor the former, many favor the latter.

To my mind, it's about analyzing the problem and its sources. The creators wanted the game to be well-balanced between the classes; certain kinds of mistakes/misjudgements are easier to make. Observing when a numerical bonus is very large and powerful is quite easy to do; observing the degree to which having multiple options adds to power is less apparent, and the power effect of being able to shift from a vast array of options is even less apparent. As such, I suspect that the reason for the tiers is simply that certain kinds of misjudgements produced consistent degrees of error in power assessment.


If you use the first approach, it may be possible to make a tier 1, or at least 2, that has considerably less flexibility, but is soooooo good in the areas it specializes in that it's net usefulness is comparable to a tier 1 character in practice.

Also, as the 3rd or so poster said, you can easily make a tier 1 if they have silly abilities.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

At mid levels the super gestalt has far more option then the wizard every day all day long barring cheese. The fact that the wizard eventually starts getting stuff that he cant match does not change that through most of their career the super gestalt is far stronger across the board.

But strength and options alone don't determine Tier. The value of those options determine Tier.

Hence why the Factotum or Chameleon (which have a TON of options) aren't Tier 1, and why a Fighter who insta-kills every single foe ever in melee combat isn't Tier one. The former have a lot of options but not enough power behind those options. The latter has all the power, but an extremely limited way of using it.

So the former are Tier 3: capable of solving a wide variety of problems, useful in almost every situation, but rarely capable of instantly negating an encounter. The latter is a horrendously overpowered Tier 5: gamebreakingly powerful, but with an incredibly limited scope.

[awa]

at mid level the synergy between his giant boat load of abilities is going to give him not only more options then the wizard but better ones as well.



wasn't there a list of encounters supposed to give you an idea of tier like the get through trap filled dungeon then fight dragon
or find resistance leaders and get them to help you
and fight army somewhere?

[137beth]

If you don't care about balance or making the class interesting or fun to play, then yes, you can be tier 1 without ToB, spells, incarnum, binding, psionics, or even any supernatural or spell-like abilities:

The generic super tier 1
In every world, there are people who think they are powerful. But all pale compared to me.
Skill points per level: As many as there are skills (all skills maxed, all the time)
Class skills: all of them
BAB: Good
Alignment: any
Saves: All good
Class features:
Be Awesome (not sp, su or ex, just awesome): Starting at level 1, the Generic Super Tier 1 gains the ability to do almost anything they want. At any time, you can make up rules/powers concerning your character. You can give yourself any power you can think of, without an action, regardless of who's turn it is. It does not matter how powerful these abilities are--you could give yourself the power to instantly destroy every deity in the universe, with no action required. There are only three restrictions:
1. You cannot gain official spellcasting, nor can you gain any other subsystem, nor can you give yourself the power to give yourself the power to use subsystems. Forbidden systems include, but are not limited to, incarnum, ToB, any of the ToM castings, psionics, divine ranks, and Vancian casting. You can gain abilities which are functionally identical to wizard/cleric/druid spells, but you cannot call them spells. Then you can laugh at anyone who is foolish enough to think that spells, or even subsystems, are required for true power.
2. You cannot override the "Be Awesome" ability of another Generic Super Tier 1 with a GST1 level equal to or greater than your own.
3. You cannot make up rules which alter or bypass restrictions 1, 2, or this one.


The thing is, subsystems aren't what makes a character powerful: they are a complex set of limitations on what a character can do. Vancian spells, in theory, can do anything. The spell system still works if you add in homebrew spells that the caster develops, so there is nothing magic can't do.
What the subsystem does do is place limits on that power. It limits how often and under what circumstances it can be used, how high a caster level you need, and what can counter your power. You could make a class with every spell/maneuver/whatever replicated as an (Ex) at-will ability at level 1, but it wouldn't be using the subsystems, it would just be able to do everything characters who do use subsystems can do (and do it better). So yes, you can make a tier 1 without any subsystems, but it won't be fun to play, because it will be essentially omnipotent.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

at mid level the synergy between his giant boat load of abilities is going to give him not only more options then the wizard but better ones as well.

It doesn't really work like that. A Gestalt of all Tier 3+ classes is indeed Tier 1, but only because he has enough casting to emulate a Tier 1-2 class. Without the casting classes you still don't have enough ways to just say "I win" to any given encounter.


wasn't there a list of encounters supposed to give you an idea of tier like the get through trap filled dungeon then fight dragon
or find resistance leaders and get them to help you
and fight army somewhere?

There are several lists. None of them are really complete though, as part of the definition of Tier 1 is that you can handle any encounter, not just a specific list.

[awa]

except at low and mid levels the gestalt can handle encounter the wizard cant handle.

So the wizard cant handle any encounter.
edit
also its tier 2 from the binder alone all it need is all the other classes to give it enough other options to bring it to tier 1 and i believe at mid to low level it does that

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

except at low and mid levels the gestalt can handle encounter the wizard cant handle.

So the wizard cant handle any encounter.

You don't have to be able to handle them all at one time. You have to have a potential solution to all encounters.

The other thing is that the Tier system is a measure of maximum potential. The Wizard takes a while to get going but, along the way, he still has encounter-ending tricks that others don't: he can't solve any problem at lower levels, but he can still solve a ton of problems.

In core only, a 1st level Wizard can deal damage, find magical objects, cause things to lose actions, create light, create sounds (which has a lot of potential if used creatives), repair broken things, communicate at range, move objects without touching them, ward an area, protect himself, obscure himself, conjure allies, understand all languages (and communicate with anything that has a language as a result), find hidden doors, charm people to bypass social encounters, put people to spell, create illusions, disguise himself with incredible realism...the list goes on.

These are his options at first level. What other character class can do half that list as effectively as the Wizard (remember...not all at once. Just able to do all that in a single build: Wizards don't actually have a limit on spells known, so it's possible for them to be able to do all of that), with the flexibility to choose a different list of things to do the next day?

[awa]

the gestalt at level 1 has more options and far better ones hes also not limited in how many times a day he can use most of his powers and can use most of them every day
edit
edit so to be tier one you must have a potential solution to all problems?

what is a level 1 wizards solution to being swarmed by undead fiendish grimlocks?

getting ambushed by an assassin vine?

locked in a cage match with a flesh golem?

the gestalt can beat these at level 1 with out time to prepare can a wizard reliably do so with out heavy optimization?

i

[ahenobarbi]

The other thing is that the Tier system is a measure of maximum potential.

No it's not. Otherwise paladins would be tier 0 (Pun-pun @ level 1) and nothing after level 5 matters (everybody gets infinite wishes by buying candle of invocation).

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

the gestalt at level 1 has more options and far better ones hes also not limited in how many times a day he can use most of his powers and can use most of them every day

How many times you can do X is less important to the Tier system than "Can you do X, Y, Z, A, B, C, and sometimes F?"


edit so to be tier one you must have a potential solution to all problems?

By 20th level, yes.


what is a level 1 wizards solution to being swarmed by undead fiendish grimlocks?

getting ambushed by an assassin vine?

locked in a cage match with a flesh golem?

None of these are at all CR appropriate challenges. This doesn't challenge a high level Wizard, but at low levels CR becomes much more important, as effects are weaker and death is easier. Throwing a higher CR enemy means that we'd need a higher CR Wizard, until such time as CR begins to be utterly unimportant for the Wizard.

The simple fact that you seem to be ignoring is that in the spectrum of encounters (combat, fact-finding, exploration, mystery, social, etc) the Wizard has more tools available to his class to solve the given quandary in an efficient manner.


No it's not. Otherwise paladins would be tier 0 (Pun-pun @ level 1) and nothing after level 5 matters (everybody gets infinite wishes by buying candle of invocation).

The Tier system does not really account for Pun-Pun. Maximum potential in the Tier system refers to the mechanical ability of the class itself, not cheese that can be milked out of a poorly worded ability. I.e. in a group of equal player skill where everyone is attempting to play as efficiently as possible (something the Tier system assumes so that it can set a standard), a Tier 1 class will be more effective than a Tier 3 class.

Pun-Pun, however, would be Tier 0. :smalltongue:

[JaronK]

No it's not. Otherwise paladins would be tier 0 (Pun-pun @ level 1) and nothing after level 5 matters (everybody gets infinite wishes by buying candle of invocation).

The Pun Pun loop doesn't really use class at all, and the tier system is only measuring classes. Candles of Invocation aren't class either.

The Tier System is a measure of the power and versatility options that a class gives a player so that they can deal with a campaign world... nothing else.

JaronK

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The Pun Pun loop doesn't really use class at all, and the tier system is only measuring classes. Candles of Invocation aren't class either.

^^This, basically.

[ahenobarbi]

The Pun Pun loop doesn't really use class at all, and the tier system is only measuring classes. Candles of Invocation aren't class either.


But they kinda make class irrelephant.

[JaronK]

But they kinda make class irrelephant.

Yes, they do. Nothing about the Tier system claims you can't completely overwhelm class choice by using other things.

I mean, I can easily make a Commoner that could act like a Tier 1 classed character. Want to see my amazing trick? Black Ethergaunt Commoner 1. Yehaw.

Point being... it's only for talking about class. It's a tool, nothing more.

JaronK

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

But they kinda make class irrelephant.

Which is more reason that they aren't included in a discussion of inter-class balance.

[visigani]

Imbue Item (Su): A warlock of 12th level or higher can use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he does not know the spells required to make an item (although he must know the appropriate item creation feat). He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for arcane spells or 25 + spell level for divine spells) in place of a required spell he doesn’t know or can’t cast.

This is arguably the most powerful and open ended ability in the entire game. In fact, it could be argued that Warlocks alone have the ability to create items that contain epic spells. In fact... he could conceivably make wondrous items capable of casting epic spells around level 16.... if only someone would lend him the money?

[JaronK]

Well, note that he'd still need to meet caster level requirements, which probably keeps epic spells off the table. Warlocks can only bypass the spell requirements... nothing else.

It's a very powerful ability though. It's a shame it comes online so late.

JaronK

[awa]

actually the vine and grimlock are only cr 3 so are appropriate at low level


exploration, bypassing traps, diplomacy, combat the gestalt not only has as many option as a low level wizard his option are in many cases objectively better with far fewer limitations particularly combat.

here are some more things a low level wizard cant handle

fight in a tournament with multiple encounter spread through out the day with a short interval between each fight

explore a trap filled dungeon with multiple traps.

fight an extended battle on a storm tossed ship in heavy rain

if we have to take into account the high levels where a wizard is god we have to take into account all those levels where our gestalt is objectively better.

being stripped naked and thrown into a dungeon with no time to memorize spells.

all things extremely hard for the wizard to overcome but easily beaten by the gestalt.

edit
there are items and feat that boost caster levels so maby that would allow him to make epic items although i haven't spent much time looking at epic items it seems to me you would be much better off just making lots of weaker items.

[JaronK]

Note that the tier system focuses on 6-15, so let's at least stay in that range. Level 1 is... swingy.

JaronK

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Note that the tier system focuses on 6-15, so let's at least stay in that range. Level 1 is... swingy.

JaronK

I'd say it definitely extends all the way up to 20, but I would agree: it sort of disintegrates at low levels because of the way spell acquisition is structured.

[JoshuaZ]

I'd say it definitely extends all the way up to 20, but I would agree: it sort of disintegrates at low levels because of the way spell acquisition is structured.

At 17+ it starts running into other issues. Favored Soul's can pick up Miracle which gives them a lot of flexibility, especially because they get a lot of total spell slots, which puts them in what may be a middle zone between T2 and T1. And at those levels arguably the Dungeoncrasher Fighter drops down a tier. There's clearly more breakdown at the low levels, but the upper levels have issues also.

[awa]

even at higher levels the gestalt compare favorably with a druid particularly when it comes to doing stuff in a city.

edit
also any type of encounter inside a human sized building to small to summon bears, ride bears or turn into bears.

they are also lousy at social encounters while the gestalt can have insane diplomacy and intimidate

[Lonely Tylenol]

I submit, for your consideration, the casterless omnistalt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13108630&postcount=43) (complete with level-by-level breakdown of its abilities), and the analysis of its abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13109615&postcount=47). Granted, I appear to be using a slightly stricter interpretation (the Tome of Magic classes were regarded as "spell casting", even if they used Su abilities, and Incarnum was considered a form of magic), but this should serve as a suitable template to build off of.

The TL;DR version (there is a lot to read): the omnistalt has all the numbers, and as such appears to be able to handle anything on paper, because the character sheet is going to be absolutely full of big numbers. Indeed, the omnistalt should defeat most encounters that rely on d20 rolls (that is to say, attack rolls, skill checks, and saves) due to the sheer number of bonuses layered on top of each other. The out-of-the-box damage is huge, if situational and narrow, and a lot of bonuses will find broader application, so the character is usually useful somehow. But once you look past the big numbers on the character sheet, you're not left with that much else. The third dimension plagues this character until the late teens, when they finally acquire flight more than 10 levels after the Wizard got it. The character is missing the all-important blindsight until level 20, and until then is powerless against most illusions, invisible creatures, and even plain old darkness (although Ninja helps with invisible creatures). Interaction skills are appreciably high, but not as definitive as enchantments in this regard; they'll get as much as Epic Diplomacy can offer, with the right amount of effort, but they can't exactly bend someone to their will completely, and the focus is prohibitively narrow. The omnistalt is limited to their movement modes as far as long-range travel goes (it has neither fast nor planar travel). The omnistalt cannot interact with creatures outside its immediate sphere of influence (it has neither long-range nor planar communication). Outside of combat maneuvers (which you are admittedly good at) and ToB maneuvers (which, admittedly, you have a fair few of), you are lacking in battlefield control methods; I think Stunning Fist and maybe Entangling Exhalation are your only real options not covered by some form of maneuver, and both are feats. You don't get Freedom of Movement until 19th level, and don't have much in the way of immunities, so you yourself are susceptible to a great deal of battlefield control that limits movement for most of the game, as well as to most enchantments, illusions, necromancies, and transmutations that might hurt you (though to be fair, "Make ALL the Saves" is a class feature, so best to stick to things that are "no save just suck", like Solid Fog). Your information-gathering skills are limited to, well, Gather Information, and its ilk. If you are lacking an item, you probably need to make it or buy it the old-fashioned way. In fact, as a mundane, you will still be doing a LOT of things the old-fashioned way. Tome of Battle overcomes some of these limitations, but not all, and not well enough.

Fact is, an omnistalt of all the mundane classes together is not better than the sum of its parts--which means we are still playing an additive game when the tier 1 classes are either quadratic or exponential.

[ryu]

Someone hasn't noticed the undeniable fact that there is no building truly too small for a bear to enter. I don't know about yours, but druids I party with tend to... force the issue somewhat.

[Yogibear41]

Yes.
Once a Warlock hit's 12, and then earns a little XP, they can craft infinite XP/GP loops [XP through... Well, lots of things. GP through Merchantile Background and selling things every now and again], and create All the Scrolls. Even the ones of wizard spells that are yet to be invented.

I don't know anything about artificers though.

How are you generating infinite XP?

[awa]

assuming you are talking about tearing through the walls have you looked at how many hp a stone wall has if you are going to try and burrow with a bear you are not using an effective method of doing the job.

I will easily agree that gestalt is in no way shape or form tier 1 or even 2 if you take away his magic but this is about no spells not no magic.

incarnium, binder, warlock, tob provide most of the gestalts power and versatility take them away and the class is vastly weaker.

[ryu]

Mostly through stone shaping magic. They're even nice enough to make actual doors in towns rather than straight up just getting rid of the obstacle. Anyone complains they can argue with the bears.:smallamused:

[awa]

that works if there is only one choke point but if your in a dungeon with a low ceiling you will be forced to waste all your spells on stone shape and depending on the size of the dungeon still might not be able to bring your bears very far inside.

Not to mention the fact that stealth and possibly diplomacy is out if you are forced to dismantle the dungeon to even get in the door.

and if the walls are made of ice or metal or crystal you cant do it at all

[Seer_of_Heart]

How are you generating infinite XP?

Ambrosia or liquid pain is good enough for crafting.

[awa]

cant you also sacrifice people to dark gods for pseudo xp and gold?

[ryu]

that works if there is only one choke point but if your in a dungeon with a low ceiling you will be forced to waste all your spells on stone shape and depending on the size of the dungeon still might not be able to bring your bears very far inside.

Not to mention the fact that stealth and possibly diplomacy is out if you are forced to dismantle the dungeon to even get in the door.

and if the walls are made of ice or metal or crystal you cant do it at all

In which cases the bears just get shrunk. Further we only even bother with the actual dungeon part at low levels and are pretty blunt about our methods in service of getting things done quickly. Mid levels we use shenanigans of various types to kill everything inside the dungeon that wasn't much of a threat to begin with and just get straight to the enemy spellcaster(s) who have some chance of being annoying. Late levels we defy the concept of dungeons entirely by forcing the enemy to come to us with gate, killing them, reanimating the head and using the result to order any lackeys down. The dumb ones can't tell the difference. The smart ones know what happens when you screw with people who can do things like that to their leaders without ever setting foot in the dungeon to get to them.

[visigani]

Well, note that he'd still need to meet caster level requirements, which probably keeps epic spells off the table. Warlocks can only bypass the spell requirements... nothing else.

It's a very powerful ability though. It's a shame it comes online so late.

JaronK

"Or can't cast".
That's what makes the thing so ridiculous... because it means any spell the Warlock can conceive of... even if it's a spell that could *never* be cast.. wouldn't be off the table.

And specific trumps broad. You can't normally put epic spells into items... but based on the above the Warlock can.

All he has to do is know the proper item creation feat. That's literally what the text says. He is under *no* requirement to be able to cast the spell.

[TuggyNE]

"Or can't cast".
That's what makes the thing so ridiculous... because it means any spell the Warlock can conceive of... even if it's a spell that could *never* be cast.. wouldn't be off the table.

That's only the case if the spell exists, though, since otherwise there is no item you could attempt to make to begin with. Most published epic spells, while nothing to sneeze at, are a lot less game-breaking than they could be, and epic spell research or custom spell research requires both direct and active DM approval, and a good bit of additional time, GP, and XP.

So hypothetical "level 100 uberspell Z" is not a problem.

[awa]

sure you can bring the bears inside by reducing them but then you are spending valuable resources in order to make your minions weaker, and its still only viable on the animal companion i don't think it works on you and summons don't last long enough to make it worth while so it's still not a good situation for the druid to be in.

while the gestalt can just walk into a human sized dungeon with out wasting any resources at all.

And the assumption that your druid will never have to enter a dungeon past mid level is not viable for many games nor will most games allow a pc to casually clear out a level appropriate dungeon without even entering it definitely not with the druids spell list.

and you still are severely limited when it comes to any kind of city adventure or social encounters. Both of which the gestalt can accomplish far more easily

[visigani]

That's only the case if the spell exists, though, since otherwise there is no item you could attempt to make to begin with. Most published epic spells, while nothing to sneeze at, are a lot less game-breaking than they could be, and epic spell research or custom spell research requires both direct and active DM approval, and a good bit of additional time, GP, and XP.

So hypothetical "level 100 uberspell Z" is not a problem.

Where is it written that the spell has to exist?

[JoshuaZ]

Where is it written that the spell has to exist?

The same place it is written that dead characters can't take actions.

If it doesn't have to exist, then one could just as well do it with a level 1 spell that does whatever the caster wants.

[137beth]

That's only the case if the spell exists, though, since otherwise there is no item you could attempt to make to begin with. Most published epic spells, while nothing to sneeze at, are a lot less game-breaking than they could be, and epic spell research or custom spell research requires both direct and active DM approval, and a good bit of additional time, GP, and XP.

So hypothetical "level 100 uberspell Z" is not a problem.

All epic spells, including the printed samples, must be custom-made and GM-approved. There are no "existing" epic spells.

I'd rule that the word "spell" in the warlock's ability is referring specifically to Vancian level 0-9 spells, not epic spells, though.
Still, an item that can cast Gate or Timestop is nothing to sneeze at.

[ryu]

sure you can bring the bears inside by reducing them but then you are spending valuable resources in order to make your minions weaker, and its still only viable on the animal companion i don't think it works on you and summons don't last long enough to make it worth while so it's still not a good situation for the druid to be in.

while the gestalt can just walk into a human sized dungeon with out wasting any resources at all.

And the assumption that your druid will never have to enter a dungeon past mid level is not viable for many games nor will most games allow a pc to casually clear out a level appropriate dungeon without even entering it definitely not with the druids spell list.

and you still are severely limited when it comes to any kind of city adventure or social encounters. Both of which the gestalt can accomplish far more easily

My style of play sees more games than someone gestalting every not spellcaster in existence. Tread lightly.

[visigani]

The same place it is written that dead characters can't take actions.

If it doesn't have to exist, then one could just as well do it with a level 1 spell that does whatever the caster wants.

Hence why Warlocks are gods. Because he could just as soon conjure up a spell that has a three foot cube of granite as a material component that allows him to cast wish as a first level spell. Put it in a gesmstone, call it a wondrous item and go to town.

The wording is so bizarre that with the open philosophy of "specific trumps general" the Warlock can craft a wondrous item (or any item really) with *any* spell, even those that are completely imaginary.

[TuggyNE]

Where is it written that the spell has to exist?

The same place it's written that a Fighter can't just randomly make up some feat to take next level.

Put another way, D&D does not allow you to just do whatever isn't specifically forbidden; rather, you can only do things that are allowed. If the spell you're trying to put in your wand or scroll or whatever doesn't exist, then that's just not a wand or scroll or whatever that can be made. Not, mind you, because you don't meet the prerequisites, but because it's simply not something you can even begin to try to create.

And that's even before you get into custom items like wondrous items, staffs, etc, which also need an additional layer of DM approval, and also do not exist without that. Creating a custom item of a custom spell you haven't even researched is just out of the question.

[JoshuaZ]

Hence why Warlocks are gods. Because he could just as soon conjure up a spell that has a three foot cube of granite as a material component that allows him to cast wish as a first level spell. Put it in a gesmstone, call it a wondrous item and go to town.

The wording is so bizarre that with the open philosophy of "specific trumps general" the Warlock can craft a wondrous item (or any item really) with *any* spell, even those that are completely imaginary.

Or you know, you could interpret it in a way that isn't ridiculous and decide that "any" doesn't refer to spells that don't exist in game.

[visigani]

Or you know, you could interpret it in a way that isn't ridiculous and decide that "any" doesn't refer to spells that don't exist in game.

Aren't you guys the guys that ooh and ahh over a kobold that rules the multiverse from like level 1 onwards?

[TuggyNE]

Aren't you guys the guys that ooh and ahh over a kobold that rules the multiverse from like level 1 onwards?

No? I'm not a super-big fan of really any significant cheese. (Although sometimes it's amusing to see a really breathtakingly audacious exploit, like watching a really good pickpocket.)

Also, let's be blunt: Pun-Pun uses actual written-down rules, in considerable detail and with essentially no need for a DM to take pity on him to actively allow custom abilities, and is thus a cut above this proposed trick.

[JoshuaZ]

Aren't you guys the guys that ooh and ahh over a kobold that rules the multiverse from like level 1 onwards?

No, at two levels.

First, the tier system, which is under discussion here, has nothing to do with punpun. If one does Pun-Pun then almost every class is the same power level. The tier system is *descriptive* about what practically happens in games, or is likely to happen in games with few house rules. One can imagine situations of say "hey if this class were published what tier would fall into?" but the primary point of the tier system is to understand game play.

Second, even if one is interested in raw RAW power in some way, every step in the level 1 Pun-Pun is far more based on actual rules than any claim that warlocks can use non-existent spells that they make up.