Why the Belkar death bets?

[wolfdreams01]

I have a question about Belkar. It seems that a lot of people have been predicting his death every couple of strips or so and I really don't understand why, because based on my reading it seems almost impossible that Belkar is slated to die yet. Is it possible that there is something I missed?

In addition to the kobold oracle's prophecy, it seems that there is another prophecy regarding Belkar. In comic strip 665b (one of the bonus content strips from Don't Split the Party) Lord Shojo asks his blind oracular cleric, Saagwaan (sp?) about Belkar. "I'm thinking of using the old Mark of Justice on this guy. Do you think it'll work?" She replies "I see him saving your nephew's life. Twice."

Part of that prophecy does indeed come true. The first time Belkar saves Hinjo's life is seen here.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html

However, I do not see any second time that Belkar saves Hinjo, so I am confused about why people keep predicting Belkar's death when the second prophecy makes it fairly clear (as prophecies go) that he's not going to die until he saves Hinjo a second time. Was there another incident where Belkar saved Hinjo, and I totally missed it? Or is everybody else just forgetting Saagwaan's prophecy?

[Forikroder]

I have a question about Belkar. It seems that a lot of people have been predicting his death every couple of strips or so and I really don't understand why, because based on my reading it seems almost impossible that Belkar is slated to die yet. Is it possible that there is something I missed?

In addition to the kobold oracle's prophecy, it seems that there is another prophecy regarding Belkar. In comic strip 665b (one of the bonus content strips from Don't Split the Party) Lord Shojo asks his blind oracular cleric, Saagwaan (sp?) about Belkar. "I'm thinking of using the old Mark of Justice on this guy. Do you think it'll work?" She replies "I see him saving your nephew's life. Twice."

Part of that prophecy does indeed come true. The first time Belkar saves Hinjo's life is seen here.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html

However, I do not see any second time that Belkar saves Hinjo, so I am confused about why people keep predicting Belkar's death when the second prophecy makes it fairly clear (as prophecies go) that he's not going to die until he saves Hinjo a second time. Was there another incident where Belkar saved Hinjo, and I totally missed it? Or is everybody else just forgetting Saagwaan's prophecy?

im pretty sure alot of people are completely unaware it exists, in fact this is the first time ive heard about it

as for why all the death bets, people like to continually guess random predictions even if they dont think it will happen just so that when it does happen tehy can say they "called it" regardless of how many times they were previously wrong

its possible that during the war was actually the second time and in a convoluted way him standing in mikos way in the throne room saved his life

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html

also a defineite candidate for "second time"

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, I think "not long for this world" means he has to live long enough to go through the rift into the other world.

There, he will die.

[happycrow]

It's just chekov's gun, man. It gets stated, people like to chew the cud on it and speculate.

[Poppatomus]

Interesting. I was also unaware of that second prophecy. I wonder if it might have something to do with this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html

Does seem like the party could use a Two Towers moment here, and if the Paladins provide it, it may well give Belkar a chance to save him again.

[Forikroder]

Interesting. I was also unaware of that second prophecy. I wonder if it might have something to do with this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html

Does seem like the party could use a Two Towers moment here, and if the Paladins provide it, it may well give Belkar a chance to save him again.

when it comes down to it Hinjo doesnt have the resources to be available as back up it would take him too long to get to Kraagars gate and it would leave his people defenseless if he was planning on intervening he would have gone with Ochul

[Poppatomus]

when it comes down to it Hinjo doesnt have the resources to be available as back up it would take him too long to get to Kraagars gate and it would leave his people defenseless if he was planning on intervening he would have gone with Ochul

Can't say I disagree with your analysis. Could well be that Ochul showing up at some point is the reason for that scene.

[Forikroder]

Can't say I disagree with your analysis. Could well be that Ochul showing up at some point is the reason for that scene.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0893.html

last panel is the reason for that scene

Ochul wont really show up (probably) he and Lirien should already be at Kraagars gate so its going to be more the OoTS showing up then them showing up

[veti]

The "other prophecy" does (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215597) get (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209648) mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146247) from (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290935) time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150246) to time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138281).

The majority view is generally that this is a prophecy of something Yet To Come, so Belkar should be "safe" for the time being.

But there's a minority opinion that holds it's already happened, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html), so don't get too complacent.

[Poppatomus]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0893.html

last panel is the reason for that scene

Ochul wont really show up (probably) he and Lirien should already be at Kraagars gate so its going to be more the OoTS showing up then them showing up

had totally forgotten about that. Agree with your conclusion.

[Forikroder]

The "other prophecy" does (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215597) get (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209648) mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146247) from (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290935) time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150246) to time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138281).

The majority view is generally that this is a prophecy of something Yet To Come, so Belkar should be "safe" for the time being.

But there's a minority opinion that holds it's already happened, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html), so don't get too complacent.
i think if that prophecy was going to be important at all to the story it would ahve been brought up by now by someone since it hasnt its safe to say its unimportant and already fulfilled

[veti]

i think if that prophecy was going to be important at all to the story it would ahve been brought up by now by someone since it hasnt its safe to say its unimportant and already fulfilled

I'm afraid I only have 9 ranks in Jumping To Conclusions, I can't quite make that leap.

[Forikroder]

I'm afraid I only have 9 ranks in Jumping To Conclusions, I can't quite make that leap.

its a bonus strip with no real comic reference that already has 2 viable situations for it to already be true

[Bulldog Psion]

i think if that prophecy was going to be important at all to the story it would ahve been brought up by now by someone since it hasnt its safe to say its unimportant and already fulfilled

I'm inclined to agree with you, Forikroder. The fireball was very likely the second occasion, and the prophecy will play no further role in the story.

[wolfdreams01]

OK, that makes a lot more sense now. The fireball thing seemed much too open-ended for me to consider that "saving Hinjo's life", but I can definitely see how it might be interpreted that way to fulfill the prophecy. Thanks for the feedback, all.
:smallsmile:

[Tiiba]

You know when Belkar will die?

When he's shown in danger (which is totally unusual for an adventurer questing against an epic lich), and nobody says that he's going to die today.

So, twenty years or so.

[Nilan8888]

Why the Belkar death bets?

Well, I haven't taken one personally. But why?

Why not? He'd bet on ours.

[War-Wren]

i think if that prophecy was going to be important at all to the story it would ahve been brought up by now by someone since it hasnt its safe to say its unimportant and already fulfilled


I'm afraid I only have 9 ranks in Jumping To Conclusions, I can't quite make that leap.


its a bonus strip with no real comic reference that already has 2 viable situations for it to already be true


I'm inclined to agree with you, Forikroder. The fireball was very likely the second occasion, and the prophecy will play no further role in the story.

I think, having read all the other threads that have been linked into this one, that I have to agree with Forikroder and Bulldog Psion. I had no idea about the bonus strip, having not bought the books yet, so this little aside about Belkar saving Hinjo actually was unknown to me.

If it had been in the main comics, it could have been argued as foreshadowing (which Rich loves to do, and does so well) and that the second was yet to come, as unlikely as it may have been. As it is, it is a flashback that can be pointed out as a reason for the Mark.

The second event that is widely 'accepted' is Skullsy blasting the hobgobs. If Belkar hadn't done that then Hinjo would have taken at least two barrages of arrows and would have made death more likely.

As confirmation of 'standard' foreshadowing by Rich;
> Belkar helps dino escape
> Much later, cue flashback to extra little scene of Belkar talking to dino, explaining the dino's reaction to Belkar in 922
> Foreshadowing complete, cue rampage! :smallamused:

So I say, yes. Prophecy fulfilled. No more Hinjo/Belkar interaction required.


Why the Belkar death bets?

Well, I haven't taken one personally. But why?

Why not? He'd bet on ours.

... and then he'd go about killing us to make sure he won! :smallcool:

[F.Harr]

People like to gamble.

[Turin_19]

I mean, I think someone should already have brought it up, but this 'prophecy' everyone talks about was actually a 'free' one the oracle gave.

And, well, I've never played D&D, but well... for me, the kobold oracle could have simply lied.

And of course, he's now reading all this and having a lot of fun.

[NerdyKris]

I mean, I think someone should already have brought it up, but this 'prophecy' everyone talks about was actually a 'free' one the oracle gave.

And, well, I've never played D&D, but well... for me, the kobold oracle could have simply lied.

And of course, he's now reading all this and having a lot of fun.

No. He explicitly stated to the readers that it was an official prophecy. He even used the prophecy voice for it. For Rich to turn around and say "Nope, he's lying!" would require him to be a complete hack. He put the other prophecies in as official. Deciding one would randomly be "Oh, he's just lying!" is a betrayal of the reader's trust and just plain awful storytelling.

You don't fulfill 5 out of 7 prophecies and then turn around and reveal that the second to last one isn't "really" a prophecy.

[Weiser_Cain]

Because I don't care if it leaves some loose strands, I hate Belkar and I want him dead. It would also leave a whole in the team that may be filled by a more likable character... though with my bad bad luck it'd be Thog.

[Coldwind]

Because Belkar is awesome and people are just jealous about it. Plus, Belkar is riding a T-Rex. Their argument is invalid. :smalltongue:

[FujinAkari]

The second event that is widely 'accepted' is Skullsy blasting the hobgobs. If Belkar hadn't done that then Hinjo would have taken at least two barrages of arrows and would have made death more likely.

As someone who has seen the second prophesy come up at least five times, I have to say the skully blast is not at all accepted, much less widely :P

No, the most often referenced answer is that Saagwan has absolutely no credibility or history as an oracle, and therefore should not be considered authoritative. When an official and author-endorced Oracle Prophesy says he will die in the next week or so, an unofficial prophesy really isn't much armor.

[Turin_19]

No. He explicitly stated to the readers that it was an official prophecy. He even used the prophecy voice for it. For Rich to turn around and say "Nope, he's lying!" would require him to be a complete hack. He put the other prophecies in as official. Deciding one would randomly be "Oh, he's just lying!" is a betrayal of the reader's trust and just plain awful storytelling.

You don't fulfill 5 out of 7 prophecies and then turn around and reveal that the second to last one isn't "really" a prophecy.


Yeah, sorry, but I don't buy it wholly. Because the first time, he did not say it with the prophecy voice. Second, because in both, he was not 'trancing' nor 'identifying' them for the 'six-headed mistress' (sorry, couldn't find the strips where these happen)

I remember, only when he talks to Roy for the second time is when (I think) he uses the prophet balloon.

So, I might be wrong, but for me, it's still a lie, or simply fooling everyone.

[BaronOfHell]

My guess is that Belkar will save Hinjo after his own demise.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Y'know, considering the interpretations the oracle offered of a previous prophecy, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)...

"Saving Hinjo's life" doesn't have to be something Belkar does while alive, anyhow.

EDIT: HOW DID I GET NINJA'D THAT BADLY?

[BroomGuys]

Yeah, sorry, but I don't buy it wholly. Because the first time, he did not say it with the prophecy voice. Second, because in both, he was not 'trancing' nor 'identifying' them for the 'six-headed mistress' (sorry, couldn't find the strips where these happen)

I remember, only when he talks to Roy for the second time is when (I think) he uses the prophet balloon.

So, I might be wrong, but for me, it's still a lie, or simply fooling everyone.

You offered no counterargument to "it would be terrible storytelling if the Oracle simply lied about Belkar's upcoming death." You have to go into that strip trying to find loopholes to think anything other than that the prophecy is legit, so it would be an incredibly cheap trick to say "whoops, the Oracle lied!"

Also, the Oracle's phony explanations for his prophecy to Belkar (about killing someone) were an attempt to keep from getting stabbed as a result of the 100% completely true prediction that Belkar would kill the Oracle. Nowhere in there is there any implication whatsoever that the Oracle's prophecies are false. It's possible Sangwaan's prophecy has already been fulfilled with the fireball thing, but my personal inclination is to think that he's still got one Hinjo-saving left to do before he takes his last breath ever.

[veti]

Also, the Oracle's phony explanations for his prophecy to Belkar (about killing someone) were an attempt to keep from getting stabbed as a result of the 100% completely true prediction that Belkar would kill the Oracle.

That has always struck me as the flimsiest justification. Why would the Oracle "attempt to keep from getting stabbed" if he knew it was about to happen anyway, despite his "attempt"? At what point does it stop being an "attempt" and become just "play-acting"?

Possible answers:

He just enjoys winding Belkar up
He actually did want to get stabbed, as the least-objectionable way of fulfilling Belkar's prophecy, and so was deliberately provoking him
Variant on the above: the prophecy was in danger of failing, and the Oracle did what he did in order to make sure it got fulfilled, to maintain his own record. (Personally I like this one, it gives back a measure of free will to all concerned.)
Having foreseen the scene, the Oracle has no free will in the matter - he absolutely has to say the lines scripted for him, by who knows what. Any attempt to do otherwise would result in him getting a headache/losing his powers/insert other unpleasant consequence here
Shut up veti, you're derailing the thread.

[jere7my]

That has always struck me as the flimsiest justification. Why would the Oracle "attempt to keep from getting stabbed" if he knew it was about to happen anyway, despite his "attempt"?

Even if I knew beyond a doubt that I was going to get stabbed, I would still attempt to avoid it.

[veti]

Even if I knew beyond a doubt that I was going to get stabbed, I would still attempt to avoid it.

Not comparable, because you as a mere human can never really know something like that "beyond a doubt". You'd always be hoping for a reprieve.

Even as the dagger came towards you... even as it pierced your flesh... even as it pierced into your heart, you'd still be thinking "I'm still alive! So far, so good, I can totally get through this!" (Or words to that effect.)

The Oracle isn't in that position. He knows - alledgedly, anyway - that he's about to die.

[NerdyKris]

Even if I knew beyond a doubt that I was going to get stabbed, I would still attempt to avoid it.

You aren't a rich person in a universe where dying is a minor setback AND you can see the future and plan for it ahead of time.

[jere7my]

Not comparable, because you as a mere human can never really know something like that "beyond a doubt". You'd always be hoping for a reprieve.

Doesn't matter. However thoroughly your conscious mind knows death is inevitable, your animal brain is going to do everything it can to avoid the pointy metal thing. Sentient beings can simultaneously hold in their brains contradictory thoughts, like "I know for sure I am going to die" and "I've gotta get out of the way of that dagger."

[veti]

Doesn't matter. However thoroughly your conscious mind knows death is inevitable, your animal brain is going to do everything it can to avoid the pointy metal thing. Sentient beings can simultaneously hold in their brains contradictory thoughts, like "I know for sure I am going to die" and "I've gotta get out of the way of that dagger."

How do you know?

By definition, if you think about it: nobody, not one person ever in the entire history of recorded thought, has ever accurately thought "I know I'm about to die" and then lived to tell about it.

So how do you know it's possible?

[NerdyKris]

Doesn't matter. However thoroughly your conscious mind knows death is inevitable, your animal brain is going to do everything it can to avoid the pointy metal thing. Sentient beings can simultaneously hold in their brains contradictory thoughts, like "I know for sure I am going to die" and "I've gotta get out of the way of that dagger."

Again, you're speaking from a real world perspective. This comic exists in a world where someone can shove a greatsword through your chest (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) and you just shrug it off.

[Tiiba]

If Belkar didn't stab the Oracle, the effort to found Lickmyorangeballshalfling would have gone to waste. Bah!

[jere7my]

How do you know?

By definition, if you think about it: nobody, not one person ever in the entire history of recorded thought, has ever accurately thought "I know I'm about to die" and then lived to tell about it.

So how do you know it's possible?

This is not a fruitful road to go down. I can turn it back on you: how do you know it's not possible? Whoa, standoff.

Anyway, I "know" because I have a basic grasp of psychology, and I can generalize from situations that don't involve death to ones that do. But I don't have to "know"; I only have to put it forth as a reasonable interpretation of the motivation of a fictional character.

[NerdyKris]

This is not a fruitful road to go down. I can turn it back on you: how do you know it's not possible? Whoa, standoff.

Anyway, I "know" because I have a basic grasp of psychology, and I can generalize from situations that don't involve death to ones that do. But I don't have to "know"; I only have to put it forth as a reasonable interpretation of the motivation of a fictional character.

Except the Oracle, as stated by another poster, PLANNED TO DIE. He founded an entire village just to screw over Belkar. You're ignoring in comic evidence to project your personal views on getting stabbed onto the character.

[jere7my]

Except the Oracle, as stated by another poster, PLANNED TO DIE. He founded an entire village just to screw over Belkar. You're ignoring in comic evidence to project your personal views on getting stabbed onto the character.

No, I'm not. Even if you have planned your death, even if you have foreseen it in an oracular trance, when the pointy metal actually comes up against the soft flesh your animal brain tries to override your conscious brain. It's two different levels of thought. The animal brain can be overridden, but to say it's somehow inconsistent for the Oracle to try to wriggle out of his own death is to ignore the fact that sentient beings can suffer cognitive dissonance.

Put it this way: Why do you think people who want to drown themselves have to fill their pockets with rocks or tie their hands together? Because, however much the conscious mind wants to die, there's a risk of the animal mind taking over and swimming back to the surface.

[Bulldog Psion]

The creepy thing is, the Oracle must know when he is going to die permanently, the manner in which it will occur, and what afterlife he will end up in. :smalleek:

[NerdyKris]

No, I'm not. Even if you have planned your death, even if you have foreseen it in an oracular trance, when the pointy metal actually comes up against the soft flesh your animal brain tries to override your conscious brain. It's two different levels of thought. The animal brain can be overridden, but to say it's somehow inconsistent for the Oracle to try to wriggle out of his own death is to ignore the fact that sentient beings can suffer cognitive dissonance.

Put it this way: Why do you think people who want to drown themselves have to fill their pockets with rocks or tie their hands together? Because, however much the conscious mind wants to die, there's a risk of the animal mind taking over and swimming back to the surface.

By that rationale, nobody has ever committed suicide by shooting themselves or bleeding out. And that most certainly does happen.

[Kish]

The Oracle isn't in that position. He knows - alledgedly, anyway - that he's about to die.
"Allegedly"?


Put it this way: Why do you think people who want to drown themselves have to fill their pockets with rocks or tie their hands together?
...because the human body is buoyant and they'll black out before they die.

[Mike Havran]

The creepy thing is, the Oracle must know when he is going to die permanently, the manner in which it will occur, and what afterlife he will end up in. :smalleek:Maybe that's why he's so self-confident and snarky :smallwink:

[SlashDash]

Also, the Oracle's phony explanations for his prophecy to Belkar (about killing someone) were an attempt to keep from getting stabbed as a result of the 100% completely true prediction that Belkar would kill the Oracle.

Actually... In the commentary section of the book, The Giant says it was to mock all the threads in the forums of how people tried to guess the prophecy being fulfilled.

And as for those asking why would he try to talk Belkar out of stabbing him if he knows the future... You might as well ask why he was a smart ass for Roy if he knew he would dangle him out of a window or why he would try to get Roy to change his question to include Azure city as a possible target for Xykon.

He obviously knows some stuff but not everything about the future.
(AKA the usual excuse of fortune telling)



Nowhere in there is there any implication whatsoever that the Oracle's prophecies are false. It's possible Sangwaan's prophecy has already been fulfilled with the fireball thing, but my personal inclination is to think that he's still got one Hinjo-saving left to do before he takes his last breath ever.
Likewise, I think the people using the fireball are seriously stretching it *just* like the stuff he joked about with the oracle in the first place.

I mean the implication here is that he would save Hinjo. When he kills the assassin (with the 2 bad angels - one of the best strips ever!) he is clearly saving Hinjo. The fireball is a general group thing and he wasn't trying to save them (his own admission).

You might as well say that, oh, since he killed lots of hobgoblins (which he got no xp for) he might have stopped a possible arrow at Hinjo or that because he threw Ochul to the MITD, that Ochul was able to influence MITD enough to save Xykon from killing the order at the desert gate and therefore the world was saved and Hinjo with it.

That's seriously stretching it.
Especially since we know that Hinjo is going to make more appearances at some point or another.

[NerdyKris]

Actually... In the commentary section of the book, The Giant says it was to mock all the threads in the forums of how people tried to guess the prophecy being fulfilled.

No he didn't. He said it was to poke fun at the idea of convoluted prophecy fulfillment in literature/film/tv, etc. Not to "mock" his fans.


He obviously knows some stuff but not everything about the future.
(AKA the usual excuse of fortune telling)

Except he did know Belkar was going to stab him, because he built a village ahead of time to prank him.

[ti'esar]

That's seriously stretching it.
Especially since we know that Hinjo is going to make more appearances at some point or another.

Well, actually, while it's a pretty sure bet, we don't know that for certain.

More to the point, we don't know if Hinjo and Belkar will appear in the same scene together again.

[jere7my]

By that rationale, nobody has ever committed suicide by shooting themselves or bleeding out. And that most certainly does happen.

"...however much the conscious mind wants to die, there's a risk of the animal mind taking over..."

More of a risk the more time you have.


...because the human body is buoyant and they'll black out before they die.

The "dead man's float" is called that for a reason: it's a stable floating position for an unconscious or dead body. Even so, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to drown yourself by floating face down while you were otherwise free to move.

[NerdyKris]

Wait, so what is your point exactly?

You keep repeating this animal mind thing, but you haven't explained how, if he didn't know he was going to die, he planned both the village and a resurrection for right after?

[jere7my]

Wait, so what is your point exactly?

You keep repeating this animal mind thing, but you haven't explained how, if he didn't know he was going to die, he planned both the village and a resurrection for right after?

I've said several times that he knew he was going to die. That's not in dispute.

My point is that even someone who knows for certain that they're going to die, even someone who has planned to die, cannot necessarily resist the overwhelming urge to live just another moment longer. The survival instinct is very deep-rooted, and can't simply be turned off by things the conscious mind knows (like "I have a resurrection lined up").

Honestly, I don't think this is particularly controversial.

[pikachu314]

I think the Oracle didn't know for sure that Belkar was going to murder him. What he knew for sure was that Belkar was going to "cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or <himself>".

So, the Oracle followed a reasonable course of action: tried to make the prophecy come true in a way that avoided getting him killed while, at the same time, preparing a plan in case he ended up being Belkar's target.

[FujinAkari]

My two cents: The Oracle's words were an effort to incite Belkar to kill him. If left to his own devices, Belkar likely would have killed the Oracle anyway, but less cleanly (Belkar isn't exactly known for his... ahem... gentle treatment of Kobalds.) By saying what he did, the Oracle caused himself the least possible amount of pain.

[multilis]

On animal instinct... you are forgetting about the power of LOVE!

There was once a fire and after it smoldered out, people found a charred bird. The picked up bird and found her babies alive underneath. The mother was willing to sacrifice herself despite animal instinct to live in order to save her babies.

Oracle in similar way was motivated by love. He knew Belkar really wanted to kill someone and Belkar didn't have that long to live, so Oracle sacrificed himself so that Belkar could be HAPPY.

Oracle also arranged the town, that is called FLIRTING, or PLAYING HARD TO GET.

For most of us when we have limited time with a loved one we don't realise it and waste it. Oracle being able to see in future was able to better spend his last time with Belkar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGDA0Hecw1k

[Turin_19]

You offered no counterargument to "it would be terrible storytelling if the Oracle simply lied about Belkar's upcoming death." You have to go into that strip trying to find loopholes to think anything other than that the prophecy is legit, so it would be an incredibly cheap trick to say "whoops, the Oracle lied!"

Also, the Oracle's phony explanations for his prophecy to Belkar (about killing someone) were an attempt to keep from getting stabbed as a result of the 100% completely true prediction that Belkar would kill the Oracle. Nowhere in there is there any implication whatsoever that the Oracle's prophecies are false. It's possible Sangwaan's prophecy has already been fulfilled with the fireball thing, but my personal inclination is to think that he's still got one Hinjo-saving left to do before he takes his last breath ever.

I still think the oracle lied. That's the point. He was in no obligation of telling the truth or even making a prophecy.

If that's bad storytelling? If the reasons are left untold, yeah, POSSIBLY. But I'm not a storyteller, so I'm not delving into the things the author may or may not do, as it's his story, not mine.

About the prophecy of killing any of the 4 (Miko, Miko's horse, V or the oracle), he was paid and was trancing to do that. I believe there's some kind of 'contract' that he should tell the truth in a case like this. Although, of course, we haven't seen enough to know if, in case, he can't make mistakes in any of his predictions.

That's what I think. I might be wrong. But I believe in it.

[Kish]

About the prophecy of killing any of the 4 (Miko, Miko's horse, V or the oracle), he was paid and was trancing to do that. I believe there's some kind of 'contract' that he should tell the truth in a case like this.
...Come again? "I think he's a liar who is arbitrarily prevented from lying in one specific circumstance"? If someone offered him a copper piece to repeat what he said about Belkar dying, then would you believe it? (He already did repeat it in the green glowies.)

[F.Harr]

There's got to be a fancy Greek term for the auther to use a character, even a usually unreliable character, to talk directly to the audience and thusthe character is absolutely right and truthful in that one instance regardless of how the character usually it.

Something other than "exposition", because that just background material.

[MtlGuy]

There's got to be a fancy Greek term for the auther to use a character, even a usually unreliable character, to talk directly to the audience and thusthe character is absolutely right and truthful in that one instance regardless of how the character usually it.

Something other than "exposition", because that just background material.

Do you mean 'breaking the fourth wall'. Like in Comics, Deadpool and sometimes She-Hulk break the 4th wall and talk directly to the audience, or recognize that they are comic book characters.

[snikrept]

So it occurs to me that if Belkar thwarts Xykon, as he is currently attempting to do along with the OOTS, he will have quite personally saved Hinjo's life once more. The whole planet is thought to be at stake and Hinjo is one of the people who lives on it.

[Emanick]

There's got to be a fancy Greek term for the auther to use a character, even a usually unreliable character, to talk directly to the audience and thusthe character is absolutely right and truthful in that one instance regardless of how the character usually it.

Something other than "exposition", because that just background material.

Not exactly, but I think "soliloquy" basically covers that. I've never heard of a character lying during a soliloquy, and although hir words aren't explicitly directed at the audience during the speech, they might as well be.

[Forikroder]

That has always struck me as the flimsiest justification. Why would the Oracle "attempt to keep from getting stabbed" if he knew it was about to happen anyway, despite his "attempt"? At what point does it stop being an "attempt" and become just "play-acting"?

Possible answers:

He just enjoys winding Belkar up
He actually did want to get stabbed, as the least-objectionable way of fulfilling Belkar's prophecy, and so was deliberately provoking him
Variant on the above: the prophecy was in danger of failing, and the Oracle did what he did in order to make sure it got fulfilled, to maintain his own record. (Personally I like this one, it gives back a measure of free will to all concerned.)
Having foreseen the scene, the Oracle has no free will in the matter - he absolutely has to say the lines scripted for him, by who knows what. Any attempt to do otherwise would result in him getting a headache/losing his powers/insert other unpleasant consequence here
Shut up veti, you're derailing the thread.


he probably looked forward and realised that there was no way to prevent it aside from just completely avoiding the group entirely (and he had a very important guest about to arrive so he couldnt just hang up the "oracle is out sign"

[F.Harr]

Do you mean 'breaking the fourth wall'. Like in Comics, Deadpool and sometimes She-Hulk break the 4th wall and talk directly to the audience, or recognize that they are comic book characters.

No. Because although the messige is MEANT for the audience, it's directed at the other characters.

[Weiser_Cain]

I hate when characters break the 4th wall.

[Taelas]

That has always struck me as the flimsiest justification. Why would the Oracle "attempt to keep from getting stabbed" if he knew it was about to happen anyway, despite his "attempt"? At what point does it stop being an "attempt" and become just "play-acting"?

Possible answers:

He just enjoys winding Belkar up
He actually did want to get stabbed, as the least-objectionable way of fulfilling Belkar's prophecy, and so was deliberately provoking him
Variant on the above: the prophecy was in danger of failing, and the Oracle did what he did in order to make sure it got fulfilled, to maintain his own record. (Personally I like this one, it gives back a measure of free will to all concerned.)
Having foreseen the scene, the Oracle has no free will in the matter - he absolutely has to say the lines scripted for him, by who knows what. Any attempt to do otherwise would result in him getting a headache/losing his powers/insert other unpleasant consequence here
Shut up veti, you're derailing the thread.


The Oracle doesn't always foresee the minutiae of how things are going to play out. He knows he's going to die, but maybe if he could convince Belkar that the prophecy was already fulfilled, he could avoid getting two metal points stuck through his chest. Even if it's 99% likely that Belkar will stab him anyway, trying doesn't cost hin a damn thing.