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View Full Version : Sorcerers and Schools of Magic: New Class Features and Feats [3.5 revision]



DeAnno
2013-10-02, 01:49 AM
(New Content 5/23/2014: 8 new Sorcerous feats)

The Sorcerer is a bit of a weird duck of a class, since while it is powerful at Tier 2, it is also extremely boring to look at. Lacking any sort of class features, base class Sorcerers tend to feel a bit bland, and sadly there really isn't much reason not to Prestige out of the class as soon as is possible, and mix the excellent casting with actual class features.

The following is an attempt to spice up the life of the Sorcerer a bit while not increasing the available power of an optimized Sorcerer build by very much. While there are no longer any dead levels, the features before level 8 are relatively minor in scope and shouldn't affect builds to a great degree. On the other hand, from level 8 onward a lot of more significant features pop up to compensate for the goodies a sorcerer would normally get with a Prestige class. In addition, numerous new feats have been added specifically catering to single classed sorcerers.


Base Attack, Base Saves, and Spells per Day are as listed in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm), so this table will only include class abilities:


The Sorcerer


LevelSpecial


1st
Affinity School, Summon Familiar


2nd
Instinctive Magic


3rd
Affinity Casting +1


4th
Expanded Knowledge


5th
Mind Over Matter


6th
Affinity Casting +2


7th
Spell-Like Ability (1st level)


8th
Bonus Feat


9th
Affinity Casting +3


10th
Expanded Knowledge


11th
Bonus Feat


12th
Affinity Casting +4


13th
Spell-Like Ability (4th level)


14th
Bonus Feat


15th
Affinity Casting +5


16th
Expanded Knowledge


17th
Bonus Feat


18th
Affinity Casting +6


19th
Spell-Like Ability (7th level)


20th
Bonus Feat



Affinity School: Every sorcerer has an inborn Affinity in one of the eight schools of magic (Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, or Transmutation). Their Affinity school affects the class features sorcerers gain.

Instinctive Magic (Ex): At 2nd level, a sorcerer may add her Charisma modifier to Spellcraft checks instead of her Intelligence modifier.

Affinity Casting (Ex): Sorcerers are better at casting spells in their school. At 3rd level, a sorcerer gets a +1 bonus to her caster level whenever casting a spell of her Affinity school. This bonus increases by one every three levels thereafter.

Expanded Knowledge: At 4th level, and once every six levels thereafter, a sorcerer may add one spell of her Affinity school to his spells known. The spell must not be a higher level than the highest level spell the sorcerer already knows (including spells learned normally this level), but it can be from any class' spell list.

Mind Over Matter (Ex): At 5th level, a sorcerer may add her Charisma modifier to Concentration checks instead of her Constitution modifier.

Spell-Like Ability: At 7th level, a sorcerer chooses a 1st level (or 0th level) spell she knows in her Affinity school. She can use this spell as a spell-like ability three times per day, with a caster level equal to her sorcerer class level. If the spell has an XP cost, the sorcerer must pay it to use the spell-like ability. If the spell requires an expensive material component, the sorcerer must pay 1/5 that cost in XP to use the spell-like ability. If the sorcerer later somehow removes the spell from her list of spells known, she must immediately choose a new appropriate spell to assign to this class feature. This feature may be retrained instead of the knowledge of a spell at every even sorcerer level.

At 13th level, a sorcerer gains another spell-like ability with the same restrictions, except that the spell may be up to 4th level. At 19th level, a sorcerer gains another spell-like ability with the same restrictions, except that the spell may be up to 7th level.

Bonus Feat: At 8th level, and once every three levels thereafter, a sorcerer gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, she can choose a Metamagic feat, Spell Focus or Greater Spell Focus in her Affinity School, a Heritage feat, a Reserve feat, Eschew Materials, or any feat that explicitly requires levels in the Sorcerer class to take. The sorcerer must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat.

Alternate Class Features

Sorcerous Power
Level: 1st
Replaces: If a sorcerer selects this class feature, she does not gain a familiar.
Benefit: The sorcerer gains a Sorcerous feat as a bonus feat. She must still meet all prerequisites for this feat.

Feats

Double Affinity
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 14th
Benefit: Choose another school of magic aside from your original Affinity school. That school now counts as an Affinity school for you as well; your Affinity Casting bonus counts for both schools, you can choose new expanded knowledge spells and spell-like abilities from either school, and you can select feats requiring either school.

Sorcerous Feats

Sorcerous feats let sorcerers harness their raw magic in a continuous way, independent of their spell slots. All Sorcerous feats have effects which depend on the sorcerer's class level and don't consume limited resources to use.

Sorcerous feats are Supernatural abilities. If a Sorcerous feat allows a saving throw, its save DC is equal to 10 + half the sorcerer's class level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier. Sorcerous feats are only improved by levels in the Sorcerer class; remember that even prestige classes which advance spells per day don't advance a sorcerer's class level.

Abjurer's Chosen Defense [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 1st, Affinity with Abjuration
Benefit: As a standard action, you can grant any one creature you touch Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Sonic Resistance equal to three times your sorcerer level. This resistance lasts for one minute per sorcerer level or until you use this ability again.

Conjurer's Frozen Shot [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 1st, Affinity with Conjuration
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a ranged touch attack to throw an orb of conjured ice at a target within 30 feet. It deals 1d6 cold damage if it hits the target. For every two sorcerer levels beyond first, it deals an additional 1d6 damage (2d6 at 3rd level, 3d6 at 5th level, and so on).

Diviner's Infinite Knowledge [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 1st, Affinity with Divination
Benefit: You gain the Bardic Knowledge class feature, except that your check instead uses your sorcerer level plus your Charisma modifier. In addition, all Knowledge skills are Sorcerer class skills for you.

Enchanter's Hypnotic Stare [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 1st, Affinity with Enchantment
Benefit: As a standard action, you can daze a creature within 30 feet for one round; a Willpower save negates the effect. Creatures with more Hit Dice than you have sorcerer levels are immune to this ability.

Evoker's Unquenchable Fire [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 1st, Affinity with Evocation
Benefit: As a standard action, you can throw a small fireball to attack your foes. It has a 5 foot radius and a range of 30 feet. It deals 1d6 fire damage to all creatures in its area, with a Reflex save for half. For every two sorcerer levels beyond first, it deals an additional 1d6 damage (2d6 at 3rd level, 3d6 at 5th level, and so on).

Illusionist's Whispered Words [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 1st, Affinity with Illusion
Benefit: When casting a spell of level equal to or less than half your sorcerer level (minimum 1st), the spell never requires verbal components (as if the spell was cast with the Silent Spell feat, but without an increase in spell level or casting time).

Necromancer's Toxic Touch [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 1st, Affinity with Necromancy
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a melee touch attack to poison a creature. If you hit, the poison deals 1d4 points of Strength damage, which can be negated by a Fortitude save. For every four sorcerer levels beyond first, it deals an additional 1d4 Strength damage (2d4 at 5th level, 3d4 at 9th level, and so on).

Transmuter's Telekinetic Grasp [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 1st, Affinity with Transmutation
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can initiate a telekinetic grapple with a creature within 30 feet. Resolve your attempt as normal, but substitute your sorcerer class level for your base attack bonus and your Charisma modifier for your Strength modifier. This doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. To maintain the grapple, you must make a new grapple check as a standard action each round; the effect ends if you fail this check, but if you succeed you can pin your opponent or move your opponent up to 20 feet. When using this ability, only your target counts as being grappled, not you.

Abjurer's Innate Resistance [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 8th, Affinity with Abjuration
Benefit: You gain Spell Resistance equal to 5 + your sorcerer class level. You can raise or lower it as a free action.

Conjurer's Chosen Summon [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 8th, Affinity with Conjuration
Benefit: Choose a creature on the Summon Monster I list when you take this feat. As a full-round action, you can summon that creature as if you had cast Summon Monster. In addition to the usual restrictions and duration on Summon Monster spells, your monster dissapears if it moves more than 30 feet away from you, or if you use this feat again before your monster is dead or the duration expires. You can exchange your chosen monster for a different one every time you gain a Sorcerer level. If your sorcerer level is higher than 8th when you take take this feat or exchange monsters, you can choose a Summon from a higher level list. You can move up one list per two sorcerer levels above 8th (Summon Monster II at 10th level, Summon Monster III at 12th level, and so on.)

Diviner's All-Seeing Eye [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 8th, Affinity with Divination
Benefit: You can see through Illusion spells or spell-like-abilities with a Spot check of 15 plus their caster level. This ability doesn't work on spells or spell-like-abilities with a caster level higher than your sorcerer level. As usual for Spot checks, you make reactive checks once automatically and can make further checks as move actions. In addition, Spot is a sorcerer class skill for you.

Enchanter's Aura of Confidence [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 8th, Affinity with Enchantment
Benefit: Allies within 5 feet per two sorcerer levels of you gain a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and on opposed skill or ability checks. This bonus increases by 1 every six sorcerer levels (+2 at 14th, +3 at 20th, and so on.)

Evoker's Colored Streamers [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 8th, Affinity with Evocation
Benefit: As a standard action, you can shoot a line of bright streams of force 5 feet per Sorcerer level long. Creatures in the area who fail a Reflex save are entangled for one round, and creatures in the area who fail a Will save are blinded for one round.

Illusionist's Effortless Upkeep [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 8th, Affinity with Illusion
Benefit: You can maintain concentration on Illusion spells of spell level less than or equal to half your sorcerer class level as a free action. You can't use this feat while readying your spell slots each day.

Necromancer's Battlefield Reinforcements [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 8th, Affinity with Necromancy
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can raise and control up to twice your sorcerer level in Hit Dice of recently dead corpses into zombies and skeletons. The corpses used must be appropriate for the creation of zombies (mostly intact with a true anatomy) and/or skeletons (mostly intact with bones) and must be no more than one minute per sorcerer level dead. Zombies or skeletons created with this feat turn to dust when destroyed, or after lasting for one minute per sorcerer level. You can't have more than twice your sorcerer level in Hit Dice of Undead active from this feat at a time (if you raise more, the oldest ones turn to dust until you are under the limit again.) Undead controlled with this feat do not count towards any other limit of Undead you can control.

Transmuter's Shining Steel [Sorcerous]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 8th, Affinity with Transmutation
Benefit: All weapons (including natural weapons), armor, and shields gain a +2 enhancement bonus for as long as you wear or wield them. Weapons gain an enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls, and armor and shields gain an enhancement bonus to AC. The enhancement bonus increases by +1 every four sorcerer levels (+3 at 12th level, +4 at 16th level, +5 at 20th level.)

Spell Burn Feats

As a Sorcerer reaches new heights of power, she learns to burn some of her magical power more quickly to produce spectacular effects. Spell Burn feats let Sorcerers expend their spell slots to fuel amazing magical maneuvers in combat.

However, these feats are very taxing to use, and in addition to the spell slot cost a Sorcerer may use each Spell Burn feat she knows only once per encounter. A Sorcerer refreshes the uses of her Spell Burn feats after going a full minute without casting a spell.

The use of an Spell Burn feat is a Supernatural ability.

Abjurer's Instant Counterspelling [Spell Burn]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 11th, Affinity with Abjuration
Benefit: If you successfully use Spellcraft to identify a spell being cast, you can attempt to counter that spell as a free action by expending a Sorcerer spell slot of the spell's level or higher. Make a Sorcerer caster level check against 11 + the spell's caster level, adding your affinity casting bonus. If you win, the spell is countered by your expended spell slot; either way, the spell slot and use of this feat for this encounter are expended.

Conjurer's Infuriating Displacement [Spell Burn]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 11th, Affinity with Conjuration
Benefit: As an immediate action, you can expend a Sorcerer spell slot to teleport up to 10 feet per level of the spell slot expended.

Diviner's Eerie Precognition [Spell Burn]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 11th, Affinity with Divination
Benefit: As a free action, when you would fail a saving throw or be hit by an attack, you can expend a Sorcerer spell slot to gain an Insight bonus equal to the spell slot's level to all saving throws and to AC until the start of your next turn. You can use this ability after you already know you have failed a save or been hit, and its effect may change the outcome.

Enchanter's Resonant Binding [Spell Burn]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 11th, Affinity with Enchantment
Benefit: When you cast a [Mind-Affecting] Enchantment spell, you can expend an extra Sorcerer spell slot of the same level as the spell you cast to let your spell ignore any immunities to [Mind-Affecting] spells the target or targets of your spell have. However, such targets get a +4 bonus to any saving throws they make against the spell.

Evoker's Overcharged Magic [Spell Burn]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 11th, Affinity with Evocation
Benefit: As a free action while casting an Evocation spell, you can expend an extra Sorcerer spell slot to deal more damage with it. The spell deals extra damage equal to half of the damage dice of the spell times the level of the expended spell slot (round down). For example, if TikTik is casting a Fireball that would normally deal 10d6 points of damage, he could expend a 7th level spell slot to make it deal (10*7)/2 = 35 extra damage in addition to the 10d6. Metamagic feats such as Empower Spell and Twin Spell will effectively multiply this extra damage as well as the spell's normal damage.

Illusionist's Two-Sided Glamer [Spell Burn]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 11th, Affinity with Illusion
Benefit: When you cast an Illusion spell, you can expend an extra Sorcerer spell slot of the same level as the spell you cast to make your spell able to fool certain effects. When you use this feat, make a Spellcraft check and add your Affinity Casting bonus to the result. For a creature to see through your illusion with an effect like True Seeing or See Invisibility, it must beat your Spellcraft check with a Spot check. As usual for the Spot skill, Creatures get a reactive Spot check when they would normally see through the illusion; after this a creature that is aware something is wrong can use move actions to make additional Spot checks. In addition, spells you cast this way do not have magical auras.

Necromancer's Recycled Life [Spell Burn]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 11th, Affinity with Necromancy
Benefit: As a swift action, you may expend a Sorcerer spell slot to gain 10 temporary hit points per spell level. These temporary hit points last for a round per spell level.

Transmuter's Amazing Athleticism [Spell Burn]
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 11th, Affinity with Transmutation
Benefit: As a swift action, you may expend a Sorcerer spell slot to gain an enhancement bonus to a physical ability score of your choice equal to the spell slot's level, and an additional competence bonus to skill checks based on that ability score equal to twice the spell slot's level. This bonus lasts for a round per spell level.

The Sorcerer and Substitution Levels

If a Sorcerer is using this revision and takes a sorcerer substitution level (such as Planar Sorcerer 5 from Planar Handbook or Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 from Races of the Dragon), she does not give up any of the new features listed in this revision. Add the new feature for the level into the substitution level, and follow all other instructions as normal. For the purposes of content in this revision, remember that sorcerer substitution levels still count as sorcerer class levels.

The Epic Sorcerer

In epic levels, the sorcerer continues to gain Affinity Casting bonuses, Expanded Knowledge spells, spell-like abilities, and bonus feats at the same rates. These progressions override and replace the progression of bonus feats listed in the SRD. Add the specific bonus feats listed in the epic sorcerer's entry in the SRD to the sorcerer's bonus feat list once in epic levels. The cap on spell level for the spell-like abilities continues to increase at the same rate (10th level spells at Sorcerer level 25, 13th level spells at Sorcerer level 31, and so on). For the purposes of content in this revision, remember that epic sorcerer levels still count as sorcerer class levels.
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Notes: I might add another round of School feats later, possibly at a different required Sorcerer level. Comments on everything are welcome.

Edit 1: School Specialization renamed to Affinity School, and Affinity Feats renamed to Spell Burn feats. New Reserve-esque feats to come, which will work from 1st level while not breaking the premise!

Edit 2 10/5/2013: Added 1st level Sorcerous feats and an ACF to trade them in

Edit 3 10/7/2013: Filled the dead levels (but kept the intensity lowish for early levels), and split out Expanded Knowledge with SLAs

Edit 4 5/23/2014: Back with new content! 8th level Sorcerous feats are out. Ability Table is also repaired.

I'm especially looking for thoughts on the relative power between different feats of the same level, and if any elements seem especially strong or weak. I might do a second round of Spell Burn feats next, or maybe something completely different.

TuggyNE
2013-10-02, 05:21 AM
This seems pretty decent on the whole, although Expanded Knowledge seems maybe a bit too frequent. Dunno.


Diviner's Eerie Precognition [School]
Prerequisites: Divination Specialist Sorcerer, Sorcerer level 11th
Benefit: As a free action, when you would fail a saving throw or be hit by an attack, you can expend a Sorcerer spell slot to gain an Insight bonus to all saving throws and to AC until the start of your next turn. You can use this ability after you already know you have failed a save or been hit, and its effect may change the outcome.

Should say what level of spell slot and the amount of the insight bonus (if the bonus is equivalent to the slot sacrificed, mention that).

DeAnno
2013-10-02, 05:32 AM
This seems pretty decent on the whole, although Expanded Knowledge seems maybe a bit too frequent. Dunno.



Should say what level of spell slot and the amount of the insight bonus (if the bonus is equivalent to the slot sacrificed, mention that).

Thanks, that was the original intent and I just fumbled the wording. As for expanded knowledge, the spells known amounts have always seemed a bit restrictive to me, but it could easily be alternated with another ability if there was a good 2-shot (with the other one at 10 and 16). Having 5 spells of the favored school, and letting them be out of class spells (sometimes relevant, sometimes not), seemed a good way to emphasize it though.

Falco1029
2013-10-02, 05:32 PM
I like the way you put this together. Though, as a recommendation, a few of your school feats seem to expend spell slots, but maybe you could have them work like reserve feats in that so long as you have a spell slot available you can use that feat without burning it, but make it less worthwhile than equivalent spells.

DeAnno
2013-10-02, 05:37 PM
I like the way you put this together. Though, as a recommendation, a few of your school feats seem to expend spell slots, but maybe you could have them work like reserve feats in that so long as you have a spell slot available you can use that feat without burning it, but make it less worthwhile than equivalent spells.

All of this round of feats had a spell slot expenditure as a cost, but for the next round I'll make a batch of Reserve feats which require a specific specialized school perhaps, for those who prefer the long haul to bursts of expenditure

Amnoriath
2013-10-02, 11:27 PM
The Sorcerer is a bit of a weird duck of a class, since while it is powerful at Tier 2, it is also extremely boring to look at. Lacking any sort of class features, base class Sorcerers tend to feel a bit bland, and sadly there really isn't much reason not to Prestige out of the class as soon as is possible, and mix the excellent casting with actual class features.

The following is an attempt to spice up the life of the Sorcerer a bit while not increasing the available power of an optimized Sorcerer build by very much; I'm adding features from 6-20, where they simply act in counterpoint to the features people would pick up by Prestiging out. I also made up some new Sorcerer feats in the style of the Fighter level requirement feats (but hopefully less bad).

Base Attack, Base Saves, and Spells per Day are as listed in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm), so this table will only include class abilities:

The Sorcerer

{table=head]Level|Special

1st|Summon Familiar

2nd|-

3rd|-

4th|-

5th|-

6th|School Specialization, Specialized Casting +1

7th|Expanded Knowledge

8th|Bonus Feat

9th|Specialized Casting +2

10th|Expanded Knowledge

11th|Bonus Feat

12th|Specialized Casting +3

13th|Expanded Knowledge

14th|Bonus Feat

15th|Specialized Casting +4

16th|Expanded Knowledge

17th|Bonus Feat

18th|Specialized Casting +5

19th|Expanded Knowledge

20th|Bonus Feat[/table]

School Specialization: Much like a wizard, a sorcerer eventually comes to choose a school of magic to excel in above all others. At 6th level, the sorcerer becomes specialized in one of the eight schools of magic (Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, or Transmutation). Unlike a wizard, a sorcerer does not gain extra spell slots and is not required to give up schools. Instead, School Specialization affects the class features sorcerers gain.

Specialized Casting: Sorcerers are better at casting spells in their school. At 6th level, a sorcerer gets a +1 bonus to his caster level whenever casting a spell of her specialized school. This bonus increases to +2 at 9th level, +3 at 12th level, +4 at 15th level, and +5 at 18th level.

Expanded Knowledge: At 7th level, and once every three levels thereafter, a sorcerer may add one spell of his chosen school to his spells known. The spell must not be a higher level than the highest level spell the sorcerer already knows (including spells learned normally this level), but it can be from any class' spell list.

Bonus Feat: At 8th level, and once every three levels thereafter, a sorcerer gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, Spell Focus or Greater Spell Focus in her specialized school, a Heritage feat, a Reserve feat, Eschew Materials, or any feat that explicitly requires levels in Sorcerer to take. The sorcerer must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.


Feats

Double Specialization
Prerequisites: Sorcerer level 14th
Benefit: Choose another school of magic to specialize in alongside your original school. You count as a specialist in both schools of magic; your specialized casting bonus counts for both schools, you can choose new expanded knowledge spells from either school, and you can select school feats requiring either school.

School Feats
As a Sorcerer reaches new heights of understanding in her specialized school, she reaches for more instinctive uses of her magic. School feats let specialist Sorcerers expend their spell slots to fuel amazing magical maneuvers in combat.

However, these feats are very taxing to use, and in addition to the spell slot cost a Sorcerer may use each School feat she knows only once per encounter. A Sorcerer refreshes the uses of her school feats after going a full minute without casting a spell.

The use of a School Feat is a Supernatural ability.

Abjurer's Instant Counterspelling [School]
Prerequisites: Abjuration Specialist Sorcerer, Sorcerer level 11th
Benefit: If you sucessfully use Spellcraft to identify a spell being cast, you can attempt to counter that spell as a free action by expending a Sorcerer spell slot of the spell's level or higher. Make a Sorcerer caster level check against 11 + the spell's caster level, adding your specialized casting bonus. If you win, the spell is countered by your expended spell slot; either way, the spell slot and use of this feat for this encounter are expended.

Conjurer's Infuriating Displacement [School]
Prerequisites: Conjuration Specialist Sorcerer, Sorcerer level 11th
Benefit: As an immediate action, you can expend a Sorcerer spell slot to teleport up to 10 feet per level of the spell slot expended.

Diviner's Eerie Precognition [School]
Prerequisites: Divination Specialist Sorcerer, Sorcerer level 11th
Benefit: As a free action, when you would fail a saving throw or be hit by an attack, you can expend a Sorcerer spell slot to gain an Insight bonus equal to the spell slot's level to all saving throws and to AC until the start of your next turn. You can use this ability after you already know you have failed a save or been hit, and its effect may change the outcome.

Enchanter's Resonant Binding [School]
Prerequisites: Enchantment Specialist Sorcerer, Sorcerer level 11th
Benefit: When you cast a [Mind-Affecting] Enchantment spell, you can expend an extra Sorcerer spell slot of the same level as the spell you cast to let your spell ignore any immunities to [Mind-Affecting] spells the target or targets of your spell have. However, such targets get a +4 bonus to any saving throws they make against the spell.

Evoker's Overcharged Magic [School]
Prerequisites: Evocation Specialist Sorcerer, Sorcerer level 11th
Benefit: As a free action while casting an Evocation spell, you can expend an extra Sorcerer spell slot to deal more damage with it. The spell deals extra damage equal to half of the damage dice of the spell times the level of the expended spell slot (round down). For example, if TikTik is casting a Fireball that would normally deal 10d6 points of damage, he could expend a 7th level spell slot to make it deal (10*7)/2 = 35 extra damage in addition to the 10d6. Metamagic feats such as Empower Spell and Twin Spell will effectively multiply this extra damage as well as the spell's normal damage.

Illusionist's Two-Sided Glamer [School]
Prerequisites: Illusion Specialist Sorcerer, Sorcerer level 11th
Benefit: When you cast an Illusion spell, you can expend an extra Sorcerer spell slot of the same level as the spell you cast to make your spell able to fool certain divinations. For a Divination effect such as True Seeing or See Invisibility to defeat your illusion, the divination's caster must succeed on a caster level check against 11 + your spell's caster level. This check is made once per round, every round when the divination would normally allow a creature to see through your illusion. If the divination effect does not have a caster level (for example, a Supernatural ability or Extraordinary ability simulating a divination spell), use the creature's hit dice as its caster level. Once the check is made successfully, the divination will detect your illusion as normal and further checks are not required. In addition, spells you cast this way do not have magical auras.

Note: This one is pretty awkward, I'm thinking of replacing the caster level checks with opposed Spot vs. Spellcraft (plus X), any opinions?

Necromancer's Recycled Life [School]
Prerequisites: Necromancy Specialist Sorcerer, Sorcerer level 11th
Benefit: As a swift action, you may expend a Sorcerer spell slot to gain 10 temporary hit points per spell level. These temporary hit points last for a round per spell level.

Transmuter's Amazing Athleticism [School]
Prerequisites: Transmutation Specialist Sorcerer, Sorcerer level 11th
Benefit: As a swift action, you may expend a Sorcerer spell slot to gain an enhancement bonus to a physical ability score of your choice equal to the spell slot's level, and an additional competence bonus to skill checks based on that ability score equal to twice the spell slot's level. This bonus lasts for a round per spell level.

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Notes: I might add another round of School feats later, possibly at a different required Sorcerer level. Comments on everything are welcome.
Too much Wizard, schools give too much of an academic feel in which the original flavor doesn't have.

The Oni
2013-10-03, 02:48 AM
^ This. The whole deal with Sorcerers is that they *aren't* schooled casters. It's mostly natural talent with some luck and force of personality.

The way Pathfinder did it was they gave them abilities based on their bloodlines (that is, based on whatever magical ancestry is responsible for their Casting.)

As for what you've got here, I'd ditch the feats that look like Metamagic (that seems like a very Wizardly thing to do) and keep the ones that let you sack spells for completely different effects (like the one that lets you Teleport). That feels more like a Sorcererous thing, to me; getting completely different effects out of your magic, rather than just getting an altered form of the spell. Sorcerer is to artist as wizard is to scientist.

Blueiji
2013-10-03, 02:53 AM
Why do the abilities start at 6th level?

I'm not criticizing the fact they start at 6th level, I'm just wondering if there's any specific reason.

DeAnno
2013-10-03, 04:30 AM
Why do the abilities start at 6th level?

I'm not criticizing the fact they start at 6th level, I'm just wondering if there's any specific reason.

It's meant to be a package of features to compensate you if you choose not to Prestige Class out. Since that generally happens at 6th or 7th level, I filled the class with content beyond 6th.

Specifically, this is so an already T2 class isn't buffed any further on the high end (people going with pure PRCs after 5th level gain nothing), while giving people the option of staying in their base class and getting something for it.

On Bloodlines: I felt that it's already been done, both in the form of a lot of splat feats, pathfinder, and other homebrew. I wanted to try to take a different course (though they can still pick 5 bonus bloodline feats if they like).

On Metamagic: I've always sort of felt this was more Sorcererish (improv with different effects on the fly) than Wizardlike, but the fluff is vague so I'll agree to disagree. The three schools that got feats like that were mainly because they're the schools with the biggest problems getting their spells no-sold by a ton of threats, and I tried to help each of them with that.

On Schools in general: School is probably an unfortunate word. Do you think all Sorcerers are supposed to be generalists? I always felt that any spellcaster of a certain power usually specializes eventually, and the school division in spells is already there and all the spells are already split up between them. One could use descriptors and subschools instead, like [Fire], [Polymorph], and [Force], but that's trickier because they have very unbalanced quantities of spells. While certain major schools are better or worse, they all at least have a lot of content, and SRD content at that.

When I think of a Sorcerer School-specializing, I think of one who became terrifying in his mastery of raising the dead, or feared for the massive explosions that he liked to create. The schools don't have great flavor in their fluff description, but they do have good flavor in their actual mechanics. And what's more Sorcerer-like than wanting more RAW POWER?

The Oni
2013-10-03, 05:30 AM
I see what you mean, it's just I always figured Metamagic was kind of a "I know my spells so well I've customized them" kind of thing.

Maybe the sorcerer-necromancer can make their undead minions exude elemental damage auras. Or maybe as an Evoker his spell explosions send enemies flying for crowd control + falling damage. It's not the spell but how they use it?

Again - I'm no professional game designer (yet) - but speaking from my limited experience I can say that as a player, what I'm reading here makes me think more calculations and spellbooks than raw arcane power and mystic flourishes.

DMwithoutPC's
2013-10-03, 10:35 AM
Deanno, I just wanted to say I agree with your view of metamagic feats. I see it like this... I have all this magic talent, let's see in how many ways I can bend one spell!"

I think that Sorcerers should specialise at level 1. this is because they do NOT specialise (they don't controll which spells they get, so how could they) Their just born with an affinity to one of the schools of magic. I don't think it should allready give a bonus on level one, but I do think it should, fluffwise, happen on level one.

Amnoriath
2013-10-03, 12:02 PM
I think that Sorcerers should specialise at level 1. this is because they do NOT specialise (they don't controll which spells they get, so how could they) Their just born with an affinity to one of the schools of magic.

Except mechanically they actually do and schools of magic are clearly an academic categorization to better study it. Why would a Sorcerer by born innately to something in which is constructed by a bunch of old men?

DeAnno
2013-10-03, 03:59 PM
Except mechanically they actually do and schools of magic are clearly an academic categorization to better study it. Why would a Sorcerer by born innately to something in which is constructed by a bunch of old men?

I've actually always seen it as a difference in reality instead of merely categorization; Divination spells are quantitatively different from Necromancy. This is supported by Detect Magic and Arcane Sight picking up on the differences between schools; if they were arbitrary classifications why would they all split along those lines when looked at with other spells?


I think that Sorcerers should specialise at level 1. this is because they do NOT specialise (they don't controll which spells they get, so how could they) Their just born with an affinity to one of the schools of magic. I don't think it should allready give a bonus on level one, but I do think it should, fluffwise, happen on level one.

Yeah this is a good point, I might change it around. It seems weird to have them specialize for no reason at 1 though, so I might invent some minor class feature to happen then (perhaps in exchange for the familiar)? Affinity is a better name than specialization too, I think I'll change things to that.

I could just abandon the premise of op-fu transparency and slide the feature progression down all the way; with bonus feats at 2 and 5, a bonus spell at 4, and a casting boost at 3; do people think that'd be a good idea?

Amnoriath
2013-10-03, 06:12 PM
I've actually always seen it as a difference in reality instead of merely categorization; Divination spells are quantitatively different from Necromancy. This is supported by Detect Magic and Arcane Sight picking up on the differences between schools; if they were arbitrary classifications why would they all split along those lines when looked at with other spells?


Yes, we have science fields of Biology and Geology which study clearly different things. Yet they weren't always called or recognized as that. It doesn't mean that for as long as the resources that have magic exist there are these planar beings of pure Divination or Necromantic energy granting their power to the unborn. I never claimed it to be arbitrary at all, just formal training.

DMwithoutPC's
2013-10-04, 03:18 PM
It's a fluff difference, but I have always seen the schools of magic as universily different. This notion is supported by the fact that Arcane Sight can spot the difference between the schools. The spells of a schol clairly have something universily in common with each other, which makes them noticeably different from the other schools.

TuggyNE
2013-10-04, 06:04 PM
Given that most decent artists had to study and practice a good deal, and given that there's a lot of formalized knowledge around art (perspective, shading, color theory, (simplified) anatomy, lighting, and probably a lot more I'm not aware of), and given finally that most artists specialize in some field or fields (be it sequential art, industrial design, sculpting, landscape painting, murals, or what have you), I can't see anything out of place with Sorcerers specializing in one aspect of their talents.

If anyone can point to any existing example where significant numbers of people just kind of spontaneously did their own thing without any kind of formal theory associated for any length of time, maybe I'd reconsider that.

Amnoriath
2013-10-04, 06:09 PM
It's a fluff difference.

Exactly, any good class that is fun to play embraces it fluff in its mechanics. Of course I believe there is a difference between the schools but the Sorcerer isn't about school categorizations because schools do not endow power as beings. They are area's of study, the Sorcerer's power is not based upon them studying, it is based upon whatever spells were made of.

Amnoriath
2013-10-04, 06:17 PM
Given that most decent artists had to study and practice a good deal, and given that there's a lot of formalized knowledge around art (perspective, shading, color theory, (simplified) anatomy, lighting, and probably a lot more I'm not aware of), and given finally that most artists specialize in some field or fields (be it sequential art, industrial design, sculpting, landscape painting, murals, or what have you), I can't see anything out of place with Sorcerers specializing in one aspect of their talents.

If anyone can point to any existing example where significant numbers of people just kind of spontaneously did their own thing without any kind of formal theory associated for any length of time, maybe I'd reconsider that.

The argument is not based on that they put no conscious effort into developing power. Of course they do, but the wizard already has specialists and already embody rigorous formal training through writings, runes...etc. Making the Sorcerer embrace schools really just solidifies the idea of a Wizard copy cat with an easier learning curve. The Sorcerer by what is written about them do not pour over books and strict categories. They may use them but spells were something else before and the Sorcerer ought to look at that.

TuggyNE
2013-10-04, 07:28 PM
The argument is not based on that they put no conscious effort into developing power. Of course they do, but the wizard already has specialists and already embody rigorous formal training through writings, runes...etc. Making the Sorcerer embrace schools really just solidifies the idea of a Wizard copy cat with an easier learning curve. The Sorcerer by what is written about them do not poor over books and strict categories. They may use them but spells were something else before and the Sorcerer ought to look at that.

So... they don't focus on anything in particular at all, and just kind of do whatever? Sorry, but I don't think that actually works. In anything. Even self-taught artists are likely to use many of the same principles, though they might not know the right names, and might take longer to fully understand them.

JennTora
2013-10-04, 08:16 PM
So... they don't focus on anything in particular at all, and just kind of do whatever? Sorry, but I don't think that actually works. In anything. Even self-taught artists are likely to use many of the same principles, though they might not know the right names, and might take longer to fully understand them.

Sorcerer's don't consciously decide what spells they learn. An intelligent sorcerer might find some use for the schools, but the schools aren't as meaningful a division to someone who might wake up tomorrow suddenly knowing how to read minds when all they knew before was how to blow stuff up. I find it unlikely that they'd think in terms of the arcane schools to any great extent. If they were to look at an aura of transmutation for instance they likely would say that it has properties that alter the way things are, rather than saying it's a transmutation effect.

A wizard grows up wanting to leaen magic and studies super hard to male it happen.

A sorcerer wakes up one day suddenly able to cast cantrips, then experiments from there to find out how their magic works.

TuggyNE
2013-10-04, 08:49 PM
Sorcerer's don't consciously decide what spells they learn. An intelligent sorcerer might find some use for the schools, but the schools aren't as meaningful a division to someone who might wake up tomorrow suddenly knowing how to read minds when all they knew before was how to blow stuff up. I find it unlikely that they'd think in terms of the arcane schools to any great extent. If they were to look at an aura of transmutation for instance they likely would say that it has properties that alter the way things are, rather than saying it's a transmutation effect.

So, they don't know the formal names of things, but they do know roughly what they mean. At the very least, that means their efforts do discernibly operate within the usual framework, and they are conscious of some such thing. How is this in any way contrary to, let's say, "not consciously" picking a school to focus in?

(TBH, I have no idea why you'd think Sorcerers would be unable to pick which spells they learn. They get to switch them every few levels!)


A sorcerer wakes up one day suddenly able to cast cantrips, then experiments from there to find out how their magic works.

Hmm. Example of this "I have no say in what to focus on or how anything works or what I can do except point and shoot" happening in fiction, any parallel in real life, anything? Closest I can think of is Rand al'Thor in Wheel of Time, who puts a good deal of conscious thought into his channeling, despite his reincarnation giving him all kinds of second-nature tendencies (and even undergoes a literal apprenticeship so he can actually function). Seems like a great example of a Sorcerer to me, barring the obviously different magic mechanics.

JennTora
2013-10-04, 09:29 PM
(TBH, I have no idea why you'd think Sorcerers would be unable to pick which spells they learn. They get to switch them every few levels!)



Hmm. Example of this "I have no say in what to focus on or how anything works or what I can do except point and shoot" happening in fiction, any parallel in real life, anything?

1. The PLAYER gets to switch them every few levels, not the sorcerer.

2. It usually comes after you have already learned how to do something, it eventually becomes as natural as breathing, but some people are born with natural aptitudes for such things. Occasionally children are born who have a natural aptitude for music, there's a movie about this, though I can't recall the name, there's a scene where this kid without any formal training walks up to a guitar and plays it quite well. Though not in the way that a guitarist would normally.

The point here is that magic is as natural to a sorcerer as moving a muscle. They don't need to view things in terms of schools. Kind of like how dragons don't really view magic in terms of schools.

Also you twisted what I said there just a bit.

Amnoriath
2013-10-04, 09:47 PM
So... they don't focus on anything in particular at all, and just kind of do whatever? Sorry, but I don't think that actually works. In anything. Even self-taught artists are likely to use many of the same principles, though they might not know the right names, and might take longer to fully understand them.

Yet again, no, specialization often has nothing to do with specializing in schools. You can have a Master Specialist of Conjuration who gives up 3 schools of magic but that Wizard is capable of supporting the party in any strategic way possible do to what is all in the conjuration school. The fact is are they not already "applying" that knowledge by learning spells at each level? The flavor suggests they are different and the mechanics beg for that difference. So why do you want them to copy the Wizard's specialization mechanics?

TuggyNE
2013-10-04, 10:15 PM
1. The PLAYER gets to switch them every few levels, not the sorcerer.

So... suddenly things just shift and what you used to be able to cast you now can't? :smallconfused:

Let's see what the class entry says about this.
At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells[…] These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.[…]

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows.

Study, knowledge, understanding, choice are built into the Sorcerer's mechanics.


2. It usually comes after you have already learned how to do something, it eventually becomes as natural as breathing, but some people are born with natural aptitudes for such things. Occasionally children are born who have a natural aptitude for music, there's a movie about this, though I can't recall the name, there's a scene where this kid without any formal training walks up to a guitar and plays it quite well. Though not in the way that a guitarist would normally.

Hmm. Hard to tell from that what would be needed to progress; would they just automatically be able to intuit everything about music, ever, or would they be limited to certain styles and patterns of guitar-playing? If the latter, that would seem to be more or less what I'm thinking of here.

I may have mis-emphasized my main point here, which is less about native aptitude and more about focus (conscious or otherwise) on some category of a larger space.


The point here is that magic is as natural to a sorcerer as moving a muscle. They don't need to view things in terms of schools. Kind of like how dragons don't really view magic in terms of schools.

… They don't? :smallconfused: (Also, and this is kind of funny, but babies have to learn how to move their muscles. Some never connect to certain relatively unused muscles, which seems to be why some can wiggle their ears and some can't.)


Also you twisted what I said there just a bit.

Sorry. I can't figure out how else to understand it though. :smallsigh:


The flavor suggests they are different and the mechanics beg for that difference. So why do you want them to copy the Wizard's specialization mechanics?

I don't. Fortunately, +1-+5 caster level is demonstrably and substantially different from +1 spell slot/level, picking the same number of spells known in all cases is substantially different from being unable to learn or cast spells from certain schools, and so on.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-10-04, 10:26 PM
I'm with TuggyNE, Sorcerers are at the very least capable of choosing their own spells. Otherwise they using spellcraft to design their own spells wouldn't make any sense.


On topic, This isn't too bad. I don't like how it's based on schools, but that is personal preference.

JennTora
2013-10-04, 11:01 PM
… They don't? :smallconfused:

Not really, just like Wu Jen don't really categorize magic by school, and neither do clerics.

Edit: okay feel free to disregard the dragon part for now since I can't locate where I read it. The point is the schools are only one way to categorize magic.

They might be aware that schools exist, but dividing magic by school is not particularly useful to them. Wu Jen categorize it by the eastern elements, and clerics mostly categorize it by alignment. Even though divine spells have schools, it's not particularly beneficial to a cleric to categorize his spells that way. And I don't see why a sorcerer would either.

Edit: to be clear, please understand that not categorizing spells in terms of schools is different than not categorizing them, and is also different than being unable to identify them by their effects. A cleric being able to refer to the conjuration school does not mean he mentally compartmentalizes it as truly distinct from anything else. Like I could probably look at a calculus problem and tell you it was calculus, but in my head it's all just math, even though I can identify calculus, I am not a mathematician, and don't really think of different types of math as fully distinct.



So... suddenly things just shift and what you used to be able to cast you now can't?


Makes about as much sense to me as forgetting an old spell because you learned a new one.

"Oh I just learned how to ride a bike, I better delete the knowledge of how to crawl from my brain."

and if they learn their spells through study then why can't they learn new spells like wizards can. (fluff-wise, not mechanics-wise)

Amnoriath
2013-10-04, 11:49 PM
S
I don't. Fortunately, +1-+5 caster level is demonstrably and substantially different from +1 spell slot/level, picking the same number of spells known in all cases is substantially different from being unable to learn or cast spells from certain schools, and so on.

But you expect them to see things exactly the way a wizard does. Yes it boosts a different thing but why do you want them to follow the same flavor when the premise says otherwise?

TheFamilarRaven
2013-10-05, 12:18 AM
Heres the way i see it.
Magic is made up of cosmic energies, that are present in almost every plane of existence.
These energies existed long before their classification into different schools.
These energies are SO different in terms of either how they are manipulated, their function or the "feel" (as registered by detect magic) of the energy, that they are, (with the exception of a few "universal" spells), easily separated into different "schools" or types of magic.
Sorcerers control magic through their force of personality (charisma), and if their personality exudes the same energy as a spell school, why can't they have an affinity for it?

Mechanically speaking, I think this fix stays right along with the original intent of WoTC. Sorcerers make better specialists in general, while a wizard's strength comes from their versatility. Now I'm not saying all wizard's should be generalists, but I don't think anyone would argue with me if I said generalist wizards on average are more powerful than a specialist.

Edit: there's no reason why a sorcerer can't see magic the way a wizard does. Given that: 1) they can choose the spells the know. 2) the get knowledge arcane, 3) they get Spellcraft.

JennTora
2013-10-05, 12:28 AM
Edit: there's no reason why a sorcerer can't see magic the way a wizard does. Given that: 1) they can choose the spells the know. 2) the get knowledge arcane, 3) they get Spellcraft.

But wizards learn spells by studying them, whereas sorcerers, based on the lack of ability to increase their spells known, just wake up with spells imprinted in their brains when they reach a certain level of power. Apparently sorcerers can't learn a spell by sitting down and reading it or they accidentally multiclass to wizard.

And fluff-wise there's no real benefit for a sorcerer to divide magic like that.

TuggyNE
2013-10-05, 12:39 AM
They might be aware that schools exist, but dividing magic by school is not particularly useful to them. Wu Jen categorize it by the eastern elements, and clerics mostly categorize it by alignment. Even though divine spells have schools, it's not particularly beneficial to a cleric to categorize his spells that way. And I don't see why a sorcerer would either.

Mmm, mostly because arcane magic is just generally a bit more focused on that than divine.


and if they learn their spells through study then why can't they learn new spells like wizards can. (fluff-wise, not mechanics-wise)

Because there's only a certain capacity their mind/soul/whatever have for retaining instinctual knowledge.


But you expect them to see things exactly the way a wizard does. Yes it boosts a different thing but why do you want them to follow the same flavor when the premise says otherwise?

They already do see things the same way with, as TheFamilarRaven already said, Spellcraft, detect magic, arcane sight, Spell Focus, otiluke's suppressing sphere, and more.


Heres the way i see it.
Magic is made up of cosmic energies, that are present in almost every plane of existence.
These energies existed long before their classification into different schools.
These energies are SO different in terms of either how they are manipulated, their function or the "feel" (as registered by detect magic) of the energy, that they are, (with the exception of a few "universal" spells), easily separated into different "schools" or types of magic.
Sorcerers control magic through their force of personality (charisma), and if their personality exudes the same energy as a spell school, why can't they have an affinity for it?

Pretty much.

Key thing, to my mind, is that the schools are not merely some scholarly invention, any more than quantum mechanics, color theory, or gravity are. They really exist, in the sense that there is a meaningful natural structure. It's not arbitrary at all, but is deeply embedded in arcane magical principles.

JennTora
2013-10-05, 12:47 AM
Because there's only a certain capacity their mind/soul/whatever have for retaining instinctual knowledge

How does learning to cast a spell from books like wizards do, which is explicitly not instinctual knowledge, qualify as instinctual knowledge exactly?

TuggyNE
2013-10-05, 01:18 AM
How does learning to cast a spell from books like wizards do, which is explicitly not instinctual knowledge, qualify as instinctual knowledge exactly?

Sorry, I meant more "muscle memory"/"second nature", although a large part of their spell knowledge is also spontaneous (though, obviously, it still functions the way learned casters' spells would). Some spells, such as those they research, are pretty clearly at least partly based on book learning.

TheFamilarRaven
2013-10-05, 02:05 AM
But wizards learn spells by studying them, whereas sorcerers, based on the lack of ability to increase their spells known, just wake up with spells imprinted in their brains when they reach a certain level of power.
I never meant that there is no reason sorcerers can't learn spells by studying, I merely pointed out that there is no reason they can't study magic as a science, like a wizard does. Because they share the same skill list. certainly, it's uncommon for sorcerers to take a scholarly approach to magic, but whether they approach magic in an academic matter, they can still know anything a wizard might know with a successful Aracna or spellcraft or other magic related skill (Maybe they don't get Desipher Script).


Apparently sorcerers can't learn a spell by sitting down and reading it or they accidentally multiclass to wizard.

that would be hilarious


And fluff-wise there's no real benefit for a sorcerer to divide magic like that.

Well, there is now with this fix

Also, I'd like to point out that this thread has kind of de-railed in terms of PEACHing a Sorcerer fix, to the debate of sorcerer/wizard differences (for lack for a better phrase

Edit: As one final note, before we either move this debate to another thread or whatever. the term "school", as in School of magic, is just another term for "type" of magic. So, I remain with my original point, there is no reason a sorcerer can't have an affinity for a certain type of magic (In fact I think it's more than likely, given that it's a Charisma based class.)

TuggyNE
2013-10-05, 03:28 AM
Also, I'd like to point out that this thread has kind of de-railed in terms of PEACHing a Sorcerer fix, to the debate of sorcerer/wizard differences (for lack for a better phrase

Yeahhh, sorry about this, DeAnno.

DeAnno
2013-10-05, 03:32 AM
Wow, lots of discussion on the whole School meta-idea. As I said before, I think "School" is an unfortunate fluff name, and I look at them more as physical types of magic, like how the different elements on the periodic table are physically different from each other.

Anyways, I added new Reserve Feat-like content with Sorcerous feats. They're like reserve feats in that they apply continuous or repeatable benefits, but are designed to be much more useful to single classed sorcerers than those that class out (and as compensation, do not require spell slots). There is also an ACF to trade your familiar for a Sorcerous feat, giving the Affinity you get at level 1 something to theoretically do.

I haven't moved down the abilities to fix the dead levels from 2-5 yet, but I remain open to the idea.

JennTora
2013-10-05, 09:55 AM
Also, I'd like to point out that this thread has kind of de-railed in terms of PEACHing a Sorcerer fix, to the debate of sorcerer/wizard differences (for lack for a better phrase.

Wait... this ISN'T the sorcerer/wizard differences megathread? :smallredface::smalltongue:

Sorry.

Okay, my response to this whole fix is related, though, the school affinity thing does still feel a bit wizardy... it would be like redoing the barbarian and still giving them rage, but also giving heavy armor proficiency and something similar to weapons training. This would help the sorcerer in terms of actually gettibg something besides their spells, I just think they need something that genuinely distinguishes them from wizards.

Think cleric vs. Druid, or better yet, favored soul. Favored soul doesn't have anything remotely resembling domains. It has its own set of distinct abilities.

Amnoriath
2013-10-05, 10:14 AM
They already do see things the same way with, as TheFamilarRaven already said, Spellcraft, detect magic, arcane sight, Spell Focus, otiluke's suppressing sphere, and more.


I suppose then a Divine Magician then sees things exactly as a wizard does then even though his God gives him all his spells while just asking for a couple more?

DMwithoutPC's
2013-10-05, 01:58 PM
Heres the way i see it.
Magic is made up of cosmic energies, that are present in almost every plane of existence.
These energies existed long before their classification into different schools.
These energies are SO different in terms of either how they are manipulated, their function or the "feel" (as registered by detect magic) of the energy, that they are, (with the exception of a few "universal" spells), easily separated into different "schools" or types of magic.
Sorcerers control magic through their force of personality (charisma), and if their personality exudes the same energy as a spell school, why can't they have an affinity for it?

Mechanically speaking, I think this fix stays right along with the original intent of WoTC. Sorcerers make better specialists in general, while a wizard's strength comes from their versatility. Now I'm not saying all wizard's should be generalists, but I don't think anyone would argue with me if I said generalist wizards on average are more powerful than a specialist.

Edit: there's no reason why a sorcerer can't see magic the way a wizard does. Given that: 1) they can choose the spells the know. 2) the get knowledge arcane, 3) they get Spellcraft.

This. This was exactly what I meant, but way better worded. I also think tying Sorcerers to one school is actually in term with their fluff that they don't learn their spells. If they just get them, it's logical that the stuff they get has some internal connection

TheFamilarRaven
2013-10-05, 07:34 PM
DeAnno, it looks like we've hijacked your post for a Wizard/sorcerer debate. I apologize.
Look at it this way though, with us constantly updating the post, more and more people will view this thread :smallsmile:

now ...:smallamused:



I suppose then a Divine Magician then sees things exactly as a wizard does then even though his God gives him all his spells while just asking for a couple more?

Well, assuming you mean Clerics and Favored Souls and such, if they worship a deity of Magic (Boccob) then probably. Also, just because you get your magic form a third party doesn't mean you have no understanding of the science behind it, because they still get spellcraft.

Also, Clerics and any other casters should be off limits for this debate, because we're discussing Sorcerers VS wizards in relation to how they see magic/how they utilize it. How any other caster class, Divine or arcane, is irrelevant.

Now,

Think cleric vs. Druid, or better yet, favored soul. Favored soul doesn't have anything remotely resembling domains. It has its own set of distinct abilities.

Would it feel weird if a FS had access to domain spells though? I don't think so. If a FS is literally some mortal a God favors, then I don't think it would be too big a stretch for them to have access to the deities domain's.

"Behold! I am Pelor! And you are now my vassal upon this world! Go forth, and heal the sick of this land and protect the weak!"

"Cool, does that mean I get access to better Healing and Protection spells through your domains? Cause that would help me heal and protect people."

"Nope! But you will get really good with a mace and later on you'll get some energy resistance and WINGS!"

"Ah ... So nothing that directly helps me further your cause. Thanks."

But i see your point, we shoudl try to keep the classes distinctly different.
Well, Wizard and Sorcerer are already pretty different.
1) One is preparatory the other is spontaneous 2) Wizards get bonus feats and Sorcerers get jack diddly-squat
I
f your saying that specializing in a school is purely a wizard thing, this fix is not saying Sorcerer sits down and says "I want to specialize in Necromancy!" It's more like "Grrrr I'm a sorcerer and I like making other people suffer! I'll use my natural connection to dark magic to destroy you!"

From a meta-standpoint, yes you could just say, "Oh, my Sorcerer is a Abjuration specialist". Sure, you wouldn;t be wrong, but your sorcerer still is different from a wizard.

Plus I think people are over glorifying how, (mechanically speaking), unique a specialist wizard is. All they get is a bonus spell slot of their school for each spell level at the sacrifice of never being able to cast a spell from two other schools (Except Divination can't be barred and if you choose divination as a specialty blah blah blah).... This fix, allows sorcerers to have increased caster levels for their Affinity, and some feats (nice feats btw).

I can't really check right now to see if they get an extra spell. But if that's the case, then I think the only issue this fix has with resembling a wizard is the extra spells known/per day, and that's about it.

Personally, I like the fix.

TheFamilarRaven
2013-10-05, 07:51 PM
As far as PEACHing goes, I would re-read the feats for typos, i think Necomancer's Toxic Touch (or something like that) has the requirement for having transmutation affinity.
Also, with the Enchanter's Hypnotic Stare, doesn't give a DC for the Will save.

Also, as far as Expanded Knowledge goes. It seems to be the ability that steps through the front door of the wizard class (mind, it doesn;t bash down the portal and ransack the house). But here's the way to think of things.
Wizards KNOW a lot of spells.
Sorcerer can CAST a lot of spells.
Not much of a difference but I think this is the ability that ruffles the most feathers.
Either severely limit this ability, change the mechanics of it or scrape it altogether.
the ability to gain bonus feats is fine, however, they get more bonus feats than a wizard and again, bonus feats seem to be one of the Wizard's shticks.

Other than that, I have no problem with the Affinity thing.

DeAnno
2013-10-05, 09:33 PM
Thanks for the thing with NTT, I fixed it. All the save DCs for Sorcerous feats are given in the Sorcerous feat intro text, its 10 + half class level + cha (there was a typo with it not being half class that I just fixed)

You have a point with Expanded Knowledge. I originally stuck it in there because I wanted to give a Sorcerer something a bit less than a feat at that level, and comparing to Extra Spell that seemed to not be the worst idea. Something different could definitely work in there as 2, 3, or even all 5 of those slots; I'll give it some thought.

I don't really want to just give them extra slots, since it's awkward to separate that from the SPD table (and if I change the SPD table that gets away from helping single class sorcs). The idea with expanded knowledge was that they could pick up bargain spells in their specialty if they wanted to and that might make them feel more unique (like the Duskblade 5 Chain Lightning iirc), and that that was sufficient reason to separate it from the Spells Known table.

Obviously we can't give out more caster level bonuses or straight bonus feats. Boosting DCs is tricky because a LOT of spells don't care at all about save DC (most at least care a little about caster level), and I want to be as fair as possible. Here are some random ideas for things to stick in at levels, tell me if any of them sound especially good:


+1 to Charisma (Something boring everyone wants)
Cast spell X of level Y you know in affinity as an SLA N/day (borderline useful for evokers, reasonable for everyone else)
Quicken spells in affinity of level Y or lower X times per day for free (I'm hesitant because high OP game sorcs already have plenty of uses for immediate actions or ways to cast quickened spells and it could be game bending for low OP games).
At will casting of low level Affinity spells (annoying since it steps on the toes of Reserve and Sorcerous feats, and does so in a less balanced way)
Pearl of Power-esque mechanics, getting slots back somehow (fairly contrived unless made interesting in some way)
Permanent spell level lowering of spell X in level Y you know in affinity (dangerous and a bit kludgy)

TheFamilarRaven
2013-10-05, 09:48 PM
I think your best options is maybe to scrape the Expanded Knowledge class feature, and maybe replace it with something else.

the Pearl of Power type ability might work out something like this.
The Sorcerer can sacrifice two spells of a spell level in order to recover 1 spell of a spell level 1 step higher) Costly, but it's something that a Sorcerer would be able t odo if they needed to.

The SLA ability doesn't seem to bad, provided that said SLA is of lower level, However, it doesn't really seem to all that useful to a sorcerer, who can cast a bazillion low level spells anyway.


Seems like we got back on track with the PEACHing

Amnoriath
2013-10-05, 11:15 PM
Well, assuming you mean Clerics and Favored Souls and such, if they worship a deity of Magic (Boccob) then probably. Also, just because you get your magic form a third party doesn't mean you have no understanding of the science behind it, because they still get spellcraft.

Also, Clerics and any other casters should be off limits for this debate, because we're discussing Sorcerers VS wizards in relation to how they see magic/how they utilize it. How any other caster class, Divine or arcane, is irrelevant.


You don't know how to use a reducto ad absurdum. The point never was they will never know the science the point is studying schools and spells aren't their methodology to obtain the source of their power. That is the source of the Wizard's power so why are shoving it down another class's throat when it isn't their flavor?

DeAnno
2013-10-06, 12:07 AM
You don't know how to use a reducto ad absurdum. The point never was they will never know the science the point is studying schools and spells aren't their methodology to obtain the source of their power. That is the source of the Wizard's power so why are shoving it down another class's throat when it isn't their flavor?

But are schools the flavor of Wizards specifically, or of the entire setting? Cleric spells, Druid spells, and even Sorcerer-only spells all still have schools of magic, so it doesn't make sense to me that it could just be an empty classification. If it was just a college of wizards doing a taxonomy, wouldn't they group all nonwizard spells into their own rump school, instead of dividing them among all the schools of wizard spells?

TheFamilarRaven
2013-10-06, 12:17 AM
And the point of this Sorcerer fix is not to say that Sorcerers study magic like a Wizard does. It's meant to say that Sorcerer's can have an affinity for a type of Magic (Evocation, Illusion etc). Because, the different "Schools", as they are called, are not a mere categorization of magic. They are distinct energy types, like (as mentioned before), Gravity and electro-magnetism are two separate forces of nature. If there isn't t any REAL difference between spell schools, then why would some races (Elves, gnomes for instance) get a natural to resistance to an arbitrary division of magic?

Amnoriath
2013-10-06, 12:18 AM
But are schools the flavor of Wizards specifically, or of the entire setting? Cleric spells, Druid spells, and even Sorcerer-only spells all still have schools of magic, so it doesn't make sense to me that it could just be an empty classification. If it was just a college of wizards doing a taxonomy, wouldn't they group all nonwizard spells into their own rump school, instead of dividing them among all the schools of wizard spells?

Yet again, that is not the point. Just because the culture of the setting categorizes the spell in those schools doesn't mean each and every casting class needs to have a spell selection or power based upon those schools. Clerics, Druids, Wu jens, Beguilers,..etc do not, only Wizards do. So, why are you forcing the Sorcerer to take the Wizard schtick?

DeAnno
2013-10-06, 12:22 AM
Yet again, that is not the point. Just because the culture of the setting categorizes the spell in those schools doesn't mean each and every casting class needs to have a spell selection or power based upon those schools. Clerics, Druids, Wu jens, Beguilers,..etc do not, only Wizards do. So, why are you forcing the Sorcerer to take the Wizard schtick?

Other classes outside of wizard even refer to schools in rules text. Warmage Advanced Learning can only snag Evocation spells, and the Divine Magician ACF in Complete Mage lets Clerics specifically select Abjuration, Divination, or Necromancy spells.

And why force the Sorcerer onto the Wizard "schtick"? It's the only game in town, and the Sorcerer has no special game of his own built into the 3.5e mechanics. Clerics have a bunch of core domains with categorized spells for them. Wu Jens have a special spell list divided into elements. Sorcerers don't have any of these high-content-intensive taxonomies attached to them natively, and I decided it would be less intrusive to use what was already there with Schools than to try to divide up every spell in every splat into Bloodlines or whatever.

Addendum: This is intended to be a fairly transparent fix, easy to stick in a game and with few large scale ramifications. I specifically tried to make it plug and play well with what's already in the system, and the more esoteric bits are segregated away into optional feats.

Amnoriath
2013-10-06, 12:23 AM
And the point of this Sorcerer fix is not to say that Sorcerers study magic like a Wizard does. It's meant to say that Sorcerer's can have an affinity for a type of Magic (Evocation, Illusion etc). Because, the different "Schools", as they are called, are not a mere categorization of magic. They are distinct energy types, like (as mentioned before), Gravity and electro-magnetism are two separate forces of nature. If there isn't t any REAL difference between spell schools, then why would some races (Elves, gnomes for instance) get a natural to resistance to an arbitrary division of magic?

Are they seperate energies based entirely upon schools or did casters of the past cultivate the energies to produce expected effects in which than they chose to categorize them once they made a few spells to make it easier to make more? Like a recipe book with a bread, canning, casseroles, entrees..etc sections.

Amnoriath
2013-10-06, 12:33 AM
Other classes outside of wizard even refer to schools in rules text. Warmage Advanced Learning can only snag Evocation spells, and the Divine Magician ACF in Complete Mage lets Clerics specifically select Abjuration, Divination, or Necromancy spells.

And why force the Sorcerer onto the Wizard "schtick"? It's the only game in town, and the Sorcerer has no special game of his own built into the 3.5e mechanics. Clerics have a bunch of core domains with categorized spells for them. Wu Jens have a special spell list divided into elements. Sorcerers don't have any of these high-content-intensive taxonomies attached to them natively, and I decided it would be less intrusive to use what was already there with Schools than to try to divide up every spell in every splat into Bloodlines or whatever.
Simple, because there are many cross over spells so the creators applied the schools to all spells. However schools aren't any of those classes schtick so you really shouldn't make an argument of a universal spell system when the classes say otherwise.
No, it isn't their are many references to draconic power or delving into other creatures. Call this a little odd but why don't we start with adding up all the levels of spells known and slots. These spells known points while in the Sorcerer class can be spent on reserve, metamagic, heritage, and any spontaneous casting based feats. This would also apply in paying for ACF's while having some limited eclectic power of choosing from the druid and cleric list and putting it in theirs at one level higher. We could also add some general spell specialization abilities and/or reserve feat oriented abilities.

TheFamilarRaven
2013-10-06, 12:41 AM
Are they seperate energies based entirely upon schools or did casters of the past cultivate the energies to produce expected effects in which than they chose to categorize them once they made a few spells to make it easier to make more? Like a recipe book with a bread, canning, casseroles, entrees..etc sections.
It's more like the schools are separate based on the energies. DnD assumes that all characteristics of magic (in terms of schools), have been discovered. Unlike real world physics, where there could be an unknown force of nature, or that one of our classifications of a force of nature could be entirely wrong.

The categorizations of magic (if we have to invent a history for them), probably happened, when a bunch of Sorcerers were trying to do the latter of your question, and accidentally multi-classed to wizard (much to their misfortune).

TuggyNE
2013-10-06, 12:59 AM
The categorizations of magic (if we have to invent a history for them), probably happened, when a bunch of Sorcerers were trying to do the latter of your question, and accidentally multi-classed to wizard (much to their misfortune).

The "oops I accidentally wizard multiclass" bit is amusing, but not really founded on anything in the rules; Sorcerers can study Spellcraft/Knowledge: Arcana and research new spells without Wizard levels.

TheFamilarRaven
2013-10-06, 01:09 AM
The "oops I accidentally wizard multiclass" bit is amusing, but not really founded on anything in the rules; Sorcerers can study Spellcraft/Knowledge: Arcana and research new spells without Wizard levels.

The idea I think is that they were writing things done, with the intention of passing knowledge on. Eventually they learned that you don't need to be handsome and naturally gifted to cast spells, you just need to be smart.

That's when the "oops, I multi-classed to wizard ... Well damn!" happened. I know it's not necessarily recorded in the core, but i thought it was an amusing summary of how wizards came to be, glad you thought so too.

In regards to PEACHing I would suggest at the very least adding a damage cap to some of those abilities, or added a limited use per day, becasue to me, they seem to be more of a "hey, I can do things at level 1!" type thing, because late game, even if u don't even bother using the ability because you get way better spells, the ability still trumps certain spells in the long run, which I don't think any infinite resource should be able to do.
.
Edit: Notice how I said I think ... I'm so silly. :smalltongue:

DeAnno
2013-10-06, 01:24 AM
In regards to PEACHing I would suggest at the very least adding a damage cap to some of those abilities, or added a limited use per day, becasue to me, they seem to be more of a "hey, I can do things at level 1!" type thing, because late game, even if u don't even bother using the ability because you get way better spells, the ability still trumps certain spells in the long run, which I don't think any infinite resource should be able to do.

The Sorcerous feats are designed to be on par with good Reserve feats if you are a single classed Sorcerer (If you aren't, they will rapidly become pretty useless). They don't require the slot, but they also don't give the CL bonus and don't allow PRCing.

Honestly, I'm more afraid of them being "overpowered" at level 1 than level 20; at level 20 even trading your familiar for a mini fireball, albeit one you can use infinitely, is a bit of a tricky question to ask. Even though level 20 Unquenchable Fire is a lot stronger than level 20 Burning Hands, I think that's fine because level 20 Burning Hands is a ludicrous waste of an action, and no fit opponent to judge things against. Level 20 Fireball on the other hand, is a lot better in many situations despite the lower save DC because of having 16x the effective area and a range of a quarter mile instead of 30 feet.

Sorcerer at level 1 isn't exactly what anyone would call very dominating though, so I think it's ok that they get to sort of pretend to be a Warlock, if they want to. Thematically, I think it's a better alternative than being reduced to crossbows after the 2nd encounter.

TheFamilarRaven
2013-10-06, 01:28 AM
Eh, call me paranoid I guess. Besides, it's not like a DM can't just say "oh yeah, you're restricted to X amount of uses of that." If he wanted too, problem solved.

DMwithoutPC's
2013-10-06, 04:55 AM
Amnoriath, TheFamiliarRaven, this is exactly what I tried to prevent with my second comment. you're argument is about a fluff different: you both read something that isn't clearly specified in the rules in other ways, and you can never come to agreement over this, because there isn't a "right answer".

Amnoriath
2013-10-06, 08:29 AM
It's more like the schools are separate based on the energies. DnD assumes that all characteristics of magic (in terms of schools), have been discovered. Unlike real world physics, where there could be an unknown force of nature, or that one of our classifications of a force of nature could be entirely wrong.

The categorizations of magic (if we have to invent a history for them), probably happened, when a bunch of Sorcerers were trying to do the latter of your question, and accidentally multi-classed to wizard (much to their misfortune).

1. Except you assume that these energies are expicitly the schools like seperate when in fact many of the schools can strategically do the same thing others can and produce the same result. The schools are a categorization of how the magic is made into being not this is the entity by which it is endowed.
2. So you admit it is the Wizard's schtick and originally something in which likely were compiled by Wizards?

Amnoriath
2013-10-06, 08:31 AM
Amnoriath, TheFamiliarRaven, this is exactly what I tried to prevent with my second comment. you're argument is about a fluff different: you both read something that isn't clearly specified in the rules in other ways, and you can never come to agreement over this, because there isn't a "right answer".

There may not be an exact answer but there is a realization of what is already in existence and making the Sorcerer more of a wizard isn't going to give them affect advantage over the Wizard.

JennTora
2013-10-06, 12:11 PM
But i see your point, we shoudl try to keep the classes distinctly different.
Well, Wizard and Sorcerer are already pretty different.
1) One is preparatory the other is spontaneous 2) Wizards get bonus feats and Sorcerers get jack diddly-squat

I can't really check right now to see if they get an extra spell. But if that's the case, then I think the only issue this fix has with resembling a wizard is the extra spells known/per day, and that's about it.

1. Which is a purely mechanical difference if you think preparatory casting is incredibly stupid and generally use some alternative method. Since I suppose I shouldn't argue based on house rules. It's also really not a significant difference. The primary complaint about the sorcerer is that they're just a less powerful wizard clone.

2. And that's a horrendous problem, but it's not really a truly significant distinction except in terms of power. Every class gets feats, wizards just get more.

3. Nope, in fact I don't see an issue with them getting more spells known.

In regards to your statement about this being about types of magic: fine, but consider this, most "necromancer" sorcerers would have spells from conjuration also. Xykon has meteor swarm of all things, and really doesn't have that much of a similarity in his spell list.


It's the only game in town, and the Sorcerer has no special game of his own built into the 3.5e mechanics.


And that is unfortunately the exact thing about the 3.5 sorcerer, that needs fixing. It's not that this is bad mechanically, or that anything is wrong with it. It just ends up feeling wizardy.

DeAnno
2013-10-07, 12:59 AM
I made a couple more changes. I traded some of the Expanded Knowledge slots for SLA abilities (but not all of them), which now gives a mix of extra spells known and extra volume. I also killed the dead levels (mostly using some thematic skill switchers), but introduced no bonus feats there since almost all of them are useful for getting into high quality PRCs and I'm not aiming to significantly improve those builds.

TuggyNE
2013-10-07, 01:08 AM
Looks pretty solid, but requiring 10x material component cost in XP is maybe a little steep. XP is usually valued 5 times as highly as gp (per hireling costs, magic item creation), so maybe just require them to spend full gp cost in XP (i.e., effectively five times as much, instead of effectively fifty times).

DeAnno
2013-10-07, 01:12 AM
Looks pretty solid, but requiring 10x material component cost in XP is maybe a little steep. XP is usually valued 5 times as highly as gp (per hireling costs, magic item creation), so maybe just require them to spend full gp cost in XP (i.e., effectively five times as much, instead of effectively fifty times).

Is it? I was going off the Archmage ability, but I have no idea what standard is. I'll check a few other sources.

EDIT: Innate Spell doesn't use the XP solution, and the magic item construction thing is pretty compelling. I'll remove the 10x and go to 1/5, since I'm mainly just trying to avoid it being abused.

TheFamilarRaven
2013-10-07, 02:23 AM
1. Except you assume that these energies are expicitly the schools like seperate when in fact many of the schools can strategically do the same thing others can and produce the same result. The schools are a categorization of how the magic is made into being not this is the entity by which it is endowed.
2. So you admit it is the Wizard's schtick and originally something in which likely were compiled by Wizards?

I think I identified the main difference in our opinion on magic in the bold.

Where (if i'm understanding you correctly), you believe that the Schools indicate how magic is used [say, "That Wizard conjured fire to burn his enemy (conjuration), while THAT wizard made a fireball to burn his enemy (evocation)"].

Whereas, I am of the opinion that the magical energy that needs to be manipulated to, lets say create a fireball from nothing (evocation), is different than the energy that needs to be manipulated to summon fire (Conjuration).
They are accomplishing the same thing, they are both burning something and dealing damage. But they are just as different as say, (since I've been using a lot of physics examples), Gravity attracting something and magnetism attracting something.

I don't think there's a right answer to which one is the correct way of looking at magic.

However, in regards to your other comments

1) I think I answered already with my above comments.

2) I don't believe that schools of magic are specifically a Wizards shtick (love that word). I see no problem with Sorcerers having an Affinity for one of the Magic types, but that's because I see magic as above. If someone sees it differently (say as you see it), then I an see where the problem is. It's not as though that view is wrong, as I said, I don't think there is a right way.
All i see, is that the Affinity School Class feature, mechanically works differently than the specialist Wizard feature, (with the exception of the additional spells know .... )


If you want to continue the debate, I recommend moving it to another thread, because we are merely meant to PEACH a Sorcerer fix in this thread. If you do move it to another thread, PM me and I'll gladly continue.

Edit: As far a PEACHing goes, just another typo fix. It reads "Affinity casting" on the table but read "Specialized casting" in the Class features description.

DeAnno
2013-10-07, 02:49 AM
Edit: As far a PEACHing goes, just another typo fix. It reads "Affinity casting" on the table but read "Specialized casting" in the Class features description.

Got it, thanks.

DMwithoutPC's
2013-10-08, 12:41 PM
Sorry, I'll focus on peaching aswell.

Right now, multiple uses of Abjurers chosen defense stack, so you can give yourself Acid resistance 3+sorc lvl one turn and Fire resistance 3+sorc lvl the next turn. Was this intended?

Also, I think the conjuration and Evocation Sorcerous feats too mutch the same. Maybe you could give the Conjurer a kind of Summon monster 0. let's you summon some minor critters?

The Transmutation feat... IDK, does a telekinetic grapple really show of transmutation the best? most of these "transmuter only" feats have been focussing on giving the transmuter the ability to change something minor about himself, maybe give this one a minor transmutation ability on his allies? Or just on objects? what do you think of this:
Temporarely change the material of an object, but only for the purposes of damage reduction and overcoming hardness. "Why do I care that there is a door in my way... my hands are adamantium! Muahahaha!" It has some utility, but you can't abuse it to change something to gold to sell it, or destroy the evil artifact by turning it into wood and burning it.

TheFamilarRaven
2013-10-08, 02:13 PM
Sorry, I'll focus on peaching aswell.

Right now, multiple uses of Abjurers chosen defense stack, so you can give yourself Acid resistance 3+sorc lvl one turn and Fire resistance 3+sorc lvl the next turn. Was this intended?

Also, I think the conjuration and Evocation Sorcerous feats too mutch the same. Maybe you could give the Conjurer a kind of Summon monster 0. let's you summon some minor critters?

The Transmutation feat... IDK, does a telekinetic grapple really show of transmutation the best? most of these "transmuter only" feats have been focussing on giving the transmuter the ability to change something minor about himself, maybe give this one a minor transmutation ability on his allies? Or just on objects? what do you think of this:
Temporarely change the material of an object, but only for the purposes of damage reduction and overcoming hardness. "Why do I care that there is a door in my way... my hands are adamantium! Muahahaha!" It has some utility, but you can't abuse it to change something to gold to sell it, or destroy the evil artifact by turning it into wood and burning it.

I second some of these.
Although I had some more things to add.
-The Abjurers resistances - I'd make it a once per encounter ability, that'd solve the problem with the stacking, if the stacking was not not intended.
(And this is just me being a little silly :smalltongue:, but I can't STAND the Level +3 part, because I look at it as "At level 20, you gain a resistance of 23. While i'm the type of person who likes looking at bonuses divisible by 5, this basically triggers my self diagnosed OCD and causes me to pull my hair out, gnash my teeth and punch ponies! ... Not really, but it peeves me a little, but it's nothing that NEEDS fixing, and I can see why the +3 is there.)

The conjuration and evocation abilities being similar is warranted, seeing as there are many conjuration spells that summon the elements to deal damage. But I agree, the ability is not really in the "spirit", so to speak, of what people think of when they think "conjuration", however I'm finding it difficult to come up with a more suitable ability
The problem I see with the Summon Monster 0 is that it would need to upgrade with level, to keep up with the other abilities, so essentially all you get is a free summon monster spell. Having no limits on the casting is nice, but I think it's just the same as adding Summon Monster to your spells known list for free (which is not bad).
Maybe upgrade upgrade the casting time of all summon spells? So Summon Monster is now a standard action rather than a full round action, etc?
Alternatively you could add a unique summoned companion for the sorcerer, essentially just a beefed up familiar. Only that would most likely require more work than necessary.

I don't know, these are just my thoughts

I was a actually talking to a friend about adding the same ability for low level transmutation. It's a good one. I'd also add though that I believe DnD states you can't change items to gold, because gold is "Too pure a metal", or some such deal. But yeah, transforming ancient evil artifacts is a no no.

DeAnno
2013-10-08, 02:35 PM
Abjuration thing:

Benefit: As a standard action, you can grant any one creature you touch Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Sonic Resistance equal to 3 plus your sorcerer level. This resistance lasts for one minute per sorcerer level or until you use this ability again.

Self-polices :smallsmile: You can even use it on someone else if you want, but it can only be in one place at a time since it goes away when you use it again. 3 was chosen because I thought 1 or 0 was too little at first level, and I decided sort of arbitrarily to follow the "skill point" progression.

Conjuring thing: Summon Monster 0 would kind of be better, but it'd be really tricky to scale right I think. The summon elemental reserve feat is a good example of what it should be, but that makes it harder since I don't want to copy it. I will think on it and try to come up with something good.

Transmuting thing: TK isn't the iconic thing to think about, but it does get a bit of the short stick for feats and it is a transmutation (and sort of a sorcererly one at that). I could see there be some material changing one too.

What I might do is try to come up with another round of Sorcerous feats, but give them minimum Sorcerer level 6. Some of the stronger or weirder current ones like TK might be moved up there and replaced at level 1 with new ones. There are already good ideas for Conjuring and Transmuting, so I only need 6 more, and half of them aren't very difficult.

I also added some "sidebars" about epic and substitution levels, not because they're particularly important but because someone might care someday and they clarify things.

DMwithoutPC's
2013-10-08, 03:27 PM
More feats! that would be great, though I think giving them to many unlimited use abilities would be overpowered, maybe make them Sorcerous/reserve, so they aren't always as powerfull; to keep the use of your awesome lvl6 sorcerer feat, you might not be able to cast that flamestrike you wanted

DeAnno
2013-10-08, 03:40 PM
Temporarely change the material of an object, but only for the purposes of damage reduction and overcoming hardness. "Why do I care that there is a door in my way... my hands are adamantium! Muahahaha!" It has some utility, but you can't abuse it to change something to gold to sell it, or destroy the evil artifact by turning it into wood and burning it.

The more I think about this ability, the harder it is to scale in such a way that the level 6 version is essentially worthless at level 20 (this is the intent). I'll keep trying to think of a way though. Maybe I'll make it sort of a version of Magic Weapon.


More feats! that would be great, though I think giving them to many unlimited use abilities would be overpowered, maybe make them Sorcerous/reserve, so they aren't always as powerfull; to keep the use of your awesome lvl6 sorcerer feat, you might not be able to cast that flamestrike you wanted

Eh, Reserve feats aren't really much different. Any Sorcerer worth his salt can keep all his reserve feats tied to one slot anyways, and that is not much of a significant sacrifice really. I would rather keep things just tied to Sorcerer level rather than try to make weird rules trying to mix the two. The cost you are really paying is the feat remember, feats are really important for Sorcerers, and these at will abilities are never exactly stellar for their level.

EDIT: Yeah I have no idea how the transmutation thing could scale. I might make the next set of Sorcerous feats less scale-friendly and just require some high Sorcerer level like 8 or 11 (maybe moving down the Spell Burn feats to 8)

DeAnno
2014-05-23, 10:39 PM
Back with new content:

New Sorcerous Feats: 8th level Sorcerous feats are out for all schools! They tend to be more powerful than the first level versions and also tend to focus on a different part of their school.

Balance changes: Abjurer's chosen defense was, on reflection, a poorly scaling Resist Energy spell (albeit one you can toggle around) and needed a bit of a buff to be reasonable at later levels. While on the surface it seemed reasonable, the fact that it is copying a long term buff (10 min/level) means that it will generally save a lot fewer spell slots than most of the other abilities will.

Diviner's All Seeing Eye is GOOD, and was moved to 8th level and replaced with Diviner's Infinite Knowledge at 1st.

Either a round of Spell Burn Feats or a round of something new to come.