Gish Critique

[cbaidchris]

Starting up my character this coming Saturday. Any tips/tricks on the build would be appreciated. Here's the build so far:

5 Wizard/3 Eldritch Knight/5 Abjurant Champion/7 Eldritch Knight
Transmuter with necromancy and enchantment banned

Feats:
1 Combat Casting
1 Metamagic School Focus (Transmutation)
3 Extend Spell
6 Arcane Strike
6 Power Attack
9 Persist Spell
12 Easy Metamagic (Persist)
15 Unknown
18 Unknown

[herrhauptmann]

17 bab and 19CL?

Could do with some wizard ACFs.
Like Martial wizard, trade your wizard bonus feats for fighter bonus feats. Since you didn't choose one at level 5, I assume you forgot them and don't really need them.

Power attack should come online sooner. At low levels your metamagic won't do much and you'll get more benefit from PA. Unless you plan to spend your lower levels like a traditional wizard.

Take Collegiate Wizard at level 1, it'll practically double your spells known at no monetary cost.

Ask DM for Mage Armor as an abjuration or dual school spell. Or research your own version. Look at Luminous Armor in BoED.

[A_S]

The build isn't legal as presented (unless you're an Outsider and haven't mentioned it). Eldritch Knight requires proficiency with all martial weapons, which you don't have with 5 levels of Wizard.

Your feat selection and Abjurant Champion suggest that you have fairly broad source access. If that's the case, you can probably do better than Eldritch Knight with all those levels (it's kinda bad since it has literally no class features).

Before I get into more detail, some questions for you:

Can you tell us what sources you have access to?
What level are you starting at, and how long do you expect the campaign to run?
Can you tell us anything about what you want the character to be able to do, or how you want it to play? Obviously, since it's a gish, you want to be able to fight and cast spells, but anything else, or any particular aspect of that style you want to emphasize? You can squeeze a lot more flavor out of gish builds than just the bog-standard "16 BAB and 9th level spells" if you work at it.

[cbaidchris]

I am in fact an outsider (Neraphim). The 5th level was dropped for spontaneous divination (pre errata). Plan on starting at level 4. Also I do plan on spending the early levels more traditionally until probably 8 or so. I'm focusing on buffing/melee with polymorph in mind as well. all complete books and book of exalted deeds as well as forgotten realms campaign setting are totally fair game. anything else is on a case by case decision from the DM.

edit: we'll play until we die so hopefully moderately high not epic or anything though

[cbaidchris]

any ideas to replace that eldritch knight/feats? I didn't wanna get as cheesy as incantatrix or spell dancer.

[A_S]

If you're a Neraph, where is your second feat coming from at first level?

There's lots of classes that are good instead of Eldritch Knight, but most of them come with some sort of additional flavor. So, you could take levels in Unseen Seer and be a gish who can also sneak and sneak attack. Or levels in Sacred Exorcist for a holy warrior feel.

If you really just want to stick to fighting and casting spells, I'd look into Jade Phoenix Mage, if Tome of Battle is allowed. Warblade 1/Wizard 5/JPM X has largely the same flavor as the build you're using, but is more effective (and more interesting) due to maneuver access and JPM actually having class features. You can hop out of JPM after 5 and go into Abjurant Champion if you're worried about the second lost caster level.

Really, though, what you should take depends on what you want to do. Do you have any plans or ideas for this character besides "I want to play a gish?" Any backstory hooks, or things that you think are really cool when characters can do them in fiction, or personality traits you enjoy playing, that might inform what kind of gish you should play?

[cbaidchris]

I do really like the sneaky feel but I don't necessarily like sneak attack a ton. I am a big fan of bluff and disguise. I don't like the divine feel. Unseen seer is a possibility. I like to be the wildcard in terms of personality. reserved but surprising at moments hence why I'm playing a gish for the first time. my backstory is along the lines of a wizard rescued me from limbo and in exchange I served him and then x killed him one day leaving me alone and hating all of x. there's other quirks to it but that's the jist and I disguise myself because the people where were at aren't too fond of or accepting of toad men.

[Xerlith]

As it is, your early levels will greatly suffer from you being a pure caster. If you're starting early, you might want to mix some martial-y class to it. A first gish doesn't have to get full nines at 20th to be fun. As long as you grab 6th level spells, you're good. And even the 6s are not exactly necessary.
How about...

Sword of the Arcane Order Mystic Ranger5/Abjurant Champion5/Swiftblade10?

Gish out of the box, with wizard spell progression up to 10th level (so 5th lvl spells at 9th level), then you grab some Swiftblade goodies to keep you up and kicking. Arcane Hunter ACF gives you Favored Enemy (Arcanists).
Then ask your DM if you can swap out Endurance for a bonus feat and grab SotAO at 4th level.
Also just buy a spellbook as one of your starting items (no one said you can't do it :smalltongue:). If your DM rules otherwise though, just swap one level of Mystic Ranger for Wizard and you're good.


If you're bent on higher-level casting (and it's okay to be) I would feel obliged to point out that being Human is always nice and the Human Paragon class fits really finely into a build like this, if you go:

Human Paragon1/Wiz1/HP+2/Wiz+1/Warblade or Crus1 and either /JPM10/AbjChamp4 or /Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/EK8

There is also the Duskblade class, which, while sub-par compared to what you can milk from multiclassing, is a decent gish-in-a-can, focused on melee blasting.



There is also this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786), and while I do not agree with it in some places, it's a very good starting point.

EDIT: Trade your Ranger Combat Style feats for Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave

[A_S]

I do really like the sneaky feel but I don't necessarily like sneak attack a ton. I am a big fan of bluff and disguise. I don't like the divine feel. Unseen seer is a possibility. I like to be the wildcard in terms of personality. reserved but surprising at moments hence why I'm playing a gish for the first time. my backstory is along the lines of a wizard rescued me from limbo and in exchange I served him and then x killed him one day leaving me alone and hating all of x. there's other quirks to it but that's the jist and I disguise myself because the people where were at aren't too fond of or accepting of toad men.
If you like sneakiness and disguise for this character, Unseen Seer may be a good bet. I'd go Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 3/Unseen Seer 8 to start off. Finish off with Abjurant Champion, Spellsword 1, and Wizard 4 if you get that far. Use the Trap Specialist Ranger ACF from Dungeonscape (if available) and the Sneak Attack Fighter variant (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm)).

Xerlith's point about maybe not building for super late levels is also something to think about. Fact is, most characters don't make it all the way through a 1-20 career. Building for power at level 16 when you're starting at level 4 may not be a great plan. It's up to you; you've got a better idea of whether this campaign is gonna go long than we do. But if not, Duskblade is a much better gish at level 4 than any of the multiclass suggestions we've put out there.

[Xerlith]

If you like sneakiness and disguise for this character, Unseen Seer may be a good bet. I'd go Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 3/Unseen Seer 8 to start off. Finish off with Abjurant Champion, Spellsword 1, and Wizard 4 if you get that far. Use the Trap Specialist Ranger ACF from Dungeonscape (if available) and the Sneak Attack Fighter variant (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm)).

Xerlith's point about maybe not building for super late levels is also something to think about. Fact is, most characters don't make it all the way through a 1-20 career. Building for power at level 16 when you're starting at level 4 may not be a great plan. It's up to you; you've got a better idea of whether this campaign is gonna go long than we do. But if not, Duskblade is a much better gish at level 4 than any of the multiclass suggestions we've put out there.

There's always Bard... :smalltongue:

[cbaidchris]

I have to admit I just reallyyyy like polymorph, it's a downfall of mine. ToB is all banned unfortunately.

[Xerlith]

Go with Mystic Ranger. You'll have spells as a wizard of your level, including polymorph. And you can always apply the Wildshape variant.
Wildshape Mystic Ranger. Yeah.

Sidenote - if a DM bans ToB but leaves Druid or Wizard at the table, I would say he's prejudiced and biased. :smallannoyed:

[cbaidchris]

Go with Mystic Ranger. You'll have spells as a wizard of your level, including polymorph. And you can always apply the Wildshape variant.
Wildshape Mystic Ranger. Yeah.

Sidenote - if a DM bans ToB but leaves Druid or Wizard at the table, I would say he's prejudiced and biased. :smallannoyed:

he is somewhat biased but it is what it is. was looking at the mystic ranger but dragon mag is pretty much off the table so I had to rework my feats anyways. I like the unseen seer but the even lower BAB than I already have concerns me. I'll look more into the wildshape ranger

[Xerlith]

Unseen seer has a basic problem - its d4 HP, so you want to stay out of melee. Unless you want to be an archer/primary sneaky skillmonkey, I'd advise away from this option.
You can make a very well published-material-only gish, which works even on earlier levels. The question is how much spellcasting you're willing to sacrifice.
You could also look at the classes like Knight of the Weave or Suel Arcanamach for more... Martial entry. Namely, you'd play like a fighter early-on (and so having the best of the martial part), then snatch quickened-progression spellcasting to have fun gishing away.

There is always the middle ground, like...
Pal (of freedom/tyranny/slaughter)2/Sorc4/Spellsword1 into AbjChamp5/EK8
or
Ftr2/Wiz4/Spellsword1 going into AbjChamp5/EK8 or swiftblade9/AbjChamp4

In both cases you pretty much grab Power Attack, Minor Shapeshift, Arcane Strike, Combat Casting tax, Extend and Persist...

[cbaidchris]

Go with Mystic Ranger. You'll have spells as a wizard of your level, including polymorph. And you can always apply the Wildshape variant.
Wildshape Mystic Ranger. Yeah.

Sidenote - if a DM bans ToB but leaves Druid or Wizard at the table, I would say he's prejudiced and biased. :smallannoyed:

swift blade is pretty darn cool but not the concept I want. I want more spellcasting. I've tweaked it a little but I still want something to replace EK. Knight Phantom is my leading option it seems right now.

Combat Wizard Transmuter 6/EK or X 2/Abjurant Champion 5/EK or X 7

Feats
1 Combat Casting
1 Power Attack
3 Arcane Disciple (Healing)
6 Extend Spell
6 Arcane Strike
7 Metamagic School Focus
9 Minor Shapeshift
12 Versatile Spellcaster
15 Persist Spell
18 (Blah)

Any thoughts on the feats or a replacement?

[cbaidchris]

small bump

[herrhauptmann]

How about Knight Phantom. As much casting as EK, but actual class features. It's an eberron PrC.

Also, you should put the new build in your opening post, spoiler or strikethrough the original build.