2e Thief Skills

[Perseus]

I'm making a 2e Swashbuckler Thief for a homebrew game and I normally play 3e and 4e so I wanted to get some advice on 2e Thief. I haven't played 2e in way to long.

If anyone knows a good guide then that would be fantastic.

Thanks!

[satorian]

Remember that you don't need "build advice" in 2e nearly as much as later editions. You play a thief. Remember that backstab is harder to pull off than sneak attack. You are not a "striker". You are a thief.

Basically, just ask yourself a few questions. What do you want to be? A generalist that can do everything thiefy somewhat ok? Then just spread your points around. A sneak? Well then you need move silently and hide in shadows as high as you can get them. A dungeon thief? Lock and trap skills are your friends. If you want, you can pick one of the races that get bonuses to the stuff you want to specialize in.

The only other question is whether you want to multiclass. Thieves do so well, as it doesn't take much xp to level up in the thief class. So if you want to be more useful in a fight, multiclass fighter/thief (but remember you still will have crappy armor). Mage/thieves definitely up the versatility a bit, and can fill in holes in thief skills. Illusionist/thief (but you gotta be a gnome) synergizes well.

[Perseus]

Remember that you don't need "build advice" in 2e nearly as much as later editions. You play a thief. Remember that backstab is harder to pull off than sneak attack. You are not a "striker". You are a thief.

Basically, just ask yourself a few questions. What do you want to be? A generalist that can do everything thiefy somewhat ok? Then just spread your points around. A sneak? Well then you need move silently and hide in shadows as high as you can get them. A dungeon thief? Lock and trap skills are your friends. If you want, you can pick one of the races that get bonuses to the stuff you want to specialize in.

The only other question is whether you want to multiclass. Thieves do so well, as it doesn't take much xp to level up in the thief class. So if you want to be more useful in a fight, multiclass fighter/thief (but remember you still will have crappy armor). Mage/thieves definitely up the versatility a bit, and can fill in holes in thief skills. Illusionist/thief (but you gotta be a gnome) synergizes well.

Oh yeah I'm not to worried about the build or being optimized, more so of what skills can actually bring to the game.

I'm going human and I can multi or dual class. I have 7k xp when I make my character. The swashbuckler gains Fighter THAC0 when using a preferred weapon of the kit.

I might want to add some versitility though.. Are thieves that gimped or do they play out well

[Lord Torath]

Weapons: For a Swashbuckler, you're going to want a Rapier and probably a man-gauche. Maybe a short bow or dagger for your ranged weapon. If you can (ie your DM will allow it), take the Ambidextrous proficiency, and specialize in two-weapon fighting. Because, seriously, what's cooler than wielding a rapier and parrying dagger in a flamboyant hat and shirt? :smallsmile:

But as Satorian says, think about what kind of thief you want to be. If I was playing a swashbuckler, I'd probably focus on my wall climbing ability (the better to sneak into the bedrooms of fair young men/maidens depending on your gender/preferences) and maybe pickpocketing (the better to steal keys from their guardians). Because, seriously, what's cooler than wielding a rapier and parrying dagger in a flamboyant hat and shirt? Doing it on top of a narrow wall! :smallwink:

Acrobatics, Tumbling, really the kit description in Complete Thief's Handbook is a pretty good guide for creating your character.

High Dexterity, high charisma, high intelligence; strength and wisdom are probably your dump stats. Because, seriously, what's cooler than wielding a rapier and parrying dagger in a flamboyant hat and shirt on top of a narrow wall? Making all the pretty girls (or boys, as the case may be) swoon with your witty reparté while you're doing it! :smallbiggrin:

Edit: You can be a decent close combatant, but don't plan on inflicting huge amounts of damage. Think of yourself as a support combatant. You can go help the fighter out if he gets in a pinch, but you're probably better off staying back in the second line. Ambidextrous is probably overkill, unless you want to dual-wield rapiers. :smallyuk:

[Perseus]

Weapons: For a Swashbuckler, you're going to want a Rapier and probably a man-gauche. Maybe a short bow or dagger for your ranged weapon. If you can (ie your DM will allow it), take the Ambidextrous proficiency, and specialize in two-weapon fighting. Because, seriously, what's cooler than wielding a rapier and parrying dagger in a flamboyant hat and shirt? :smallsmile:

But as Satorian says, think about what kind of thief you want to be. If I was playing a swashbuckler, I'd probably focus on my wall climbing ability (the better to sneak into the bedrooms of fair young men/maidens depending on your gender/preferences) and maybe pickpocketing (the better to steal keys from their guardians). Because, seriously, what's cooler than wielding a rapier and parrying dagger in a flamboyant hat and shirt? Doing it on top of a narrow wall! :smallwink:

Acrobatics, Tumbling, really the kit description in Complete Thief's Handbook is a pretty good guide for creating your character.

High Dexterity, high charisma, high intelligence; strength and wisdom are probably your dump stats. Because, seriously, what's cooler than wielding a rapier and parrying dagger in a flamboyant hat and shirt on top of a narrow wall? Making all the pretty girls (or boys, as the case may be) swoon with your witty reparté while you're doing it! :smallbiggrin:

Edit: You can be a decent close combatant, but don't plan on inflicting huge amounts of damage. Think of yourself as a support combatant. You can go help the fighter out if he gets in a pinch, but you're probably better off staying back in the second line. Ambidextrous is probably overkill, unless you want to dual-wield rapiers. :smallyuk:

On my phone so bolding isn't going to happen but you just nailed it with what I'm going for.

However the only stealing will be the hearts and minds of damsels in distress (might make an exception for a guy or two... If they have a large coin purse or a cute female relative...).

However, isn't strength important for hitting stuff with my rapier or main-gauche ?

[Lord Torath]

On my phone so bolding isn't going to happen but you just nailed it with what I'm going for.

However the only stealing will be the hearts and minds of damsels in distress (might make an exception for a guy or two... If they have a large coin purse or a cute female relative...).

However, isn't strength important for hitting stuff with my rapier or main-gauche ?Strength is moderately important, yes. But if you really want to be hitting things, you should probably go with the fighter version of the Swashbuckler. However, there are no penalties for a strength of 8 or higher, and no bonuses until you get up to 16. So aside from carrying capacity, strength will likely not have too much of an impact. Constitution needs to be 7 or higher to avoid a hp penalty. But you probably want a high System Shock, depending on how often (or if) your DM uses it. And if you had a high wisdom, well, you probably would have picked a different kit. After all, being a swashbuckler is all about getting in over your head, and looking really cool doing it. :smallwink:

[LibraryOgre]

I'd also add the importance of Detect Noise, for discrete eavesdropping.

[MeeposFire]

Str is overrated. Why? Because you need to get a 16 to get a bonus at all and that bonus is small unless you can get exceptional str (so you need an 18 and be a fighter which you are not). Since you are not a fighter I would say boost dex and int (NWP are great to have and you may need them when you get over your head). If you can get con to a 15 or 16 I would take that over a few extra int points. Cha should be high as that is in character (unless you want to play a swashbuckler that is actually really bad at it but thinks he is good and witty).

For a thief it is better to get str up to a decent amount so you can carry gear and then hope you can find ways to boost str by items or spells.

[skyth]

I prefer the sabre and single weapon style for a swashbuckler thief. It's the one thief kit that somewhat hold it's own in combat. I wouldn't go duel-wielding because you only get the Fighter thac0 with one weapon.

As for skills, it depends on the campaign :) A 'standard' campaign won't have much use for move silently/hide in shadows because the rest of the party doesn't have them. Open locks plus find/remove traps are the meat and potatoes.

Now if you have a 'social' campaign with lots of going off on your own, that advice doesn't hold as much.

[MtlGuy]

The Complete Thief's Handbook published around 1991 would be what you're after.

The Swashbuckler is basically a specialist thief. The Swashbuckler is by nature less adaptable than a general purpose thief. You'll excel in some areas at expense of being less effective in others. In the Swashbuckler's case, it's the environment that makes the difference. The swashbuckler is also somewhat ill-prepared to deal with the full spectrum of melee combat compared to a warrior (some examples below).

The Swashbuckler looks as though he/she would excel as a party 'face' using social skills to overcome challenges. Villains amenable to verbal jousting would also be the swashbuckler's forte. Those are certainly assets in campaigns that feature a lot of such challenges, or are centered in urban environments. Mobility and detection skills are also helpful in this regard (climb walls, detect noise, acrobatics NWP). Combat-wise, in a city there are going to be a lot of instances where the disarm ability is pretty helpful. Take care on the proximity of innocent bystanders/your audience. A disarmed weapon has a random roll for the direction it takes once it flies out his hand. Also, the presence or impending arrival of city guards can mean that fights may be shorter affairs, which are favorable to Swashbuckler.

On the flipside...The Thief is third best at taking hits in the game so there are risks associated with entering the melee with a flamboyant style that tends to attract attention. The danger with swashbuckling becomes apparent out in the field when instead of facing humanoid opponents that clumsily wield one-handed weapons, you encounter something like a swarm of undead or giant spiders, bats or even humanoids wielding two-handed weapons. Disarm won't work against them. Multiple attackers of this variety can be a particular challenge. Sure you attack with a fighter Thac0 wielding your favored weapon, but you still only make one attack per round. Warriors have the optional rule that allows them to make a number of attacks equal to their level against creatures with less than one hit die to deal with such threats. Even if they don't have this rule in effect, they'll have more HP to weather the blows, weapon specialization to inflict more damage or a wider range of weapon proficiencies to pick the right tool for the job.

It might be good to focus one's initial Thief skill percentage points in a couple of areas to raise their chance of success to reasonable levels rather than spread them around evenly and hope for the best.

[MeeposFire]

I prefer the sabre and single weapon style for a swashbuckler thief. It's the one thief kit that somewhat hold it's own in combat. I wouldn't go duel-wielding because you only get the Fighter thac0 with one weapon.

As for skills, it depends on the campaign :) A 'standard' campaign won't have much use for move silently/hide in shadows because the rest of the party doesn't have them. Open locks plus find/remove traps are the meat and potatoes.

Now if you have a 'social' campaign with lots of going off on your own, that advice doesn't hold as much.

You can do that but OP wise single weapon style just is not good. Even with the thief thac0) two weapon is better. Heck standard thieves should go two weapon if they are in melee so a swashbuckler is no different in that regard. It could look silly but if you put two points into two weapon style you could wield a sabre in each hand.

[Perseus]

I'm not to worried about overall optimization, more of it just on the skill side.

What I would like to do is make ambush strikes and then run away and allow my allies to trap the enemy via flanking and such...

Perhaps swing into an open/unopen window then allow the enemies to chase me out of the room to a place where my allies are waiting in surprise.

Pretty much a dashing swordsman I guess haha.

[MeeposFire]

Another option is go single weapon style and specialize in punching. Wear a cestus (no prof needed), tumble, and climbing claws and you are looking at a 1d4+2 weapon with a +3 bonus to hit which will grant you an extra attack but allows you to look and use your single weapon style.

It also looks thematic.

As for your thief skills I would look at all the various ways you can increase your thief skills without using your thief points. Examples include climbing claws, footpads, and the lock smith NWP. I would make sure that your mobility is good because that is where you seem to be going.

[MtlGuy]

I'm not to worried about overall optimization, more of it just on the skill side.

What I would like to do is make ambush strikes and then run away and allow my allies to trap the enemy via flanking and such...

Perhaps swing into an open/unopen window then allow the enemies to chase me out of the room to a place where my allies are waiting in surprise.

Pretty much a dashing swordsman I guess haha.

Rope use and Acrobatics NWP's will play more of a determining factor in the success of the maneouvers you've described than actual Thief skills, or even the Thief class for that matter. If you look at the Complete Thief's Hanbook, there are a number of additional NWP's that might help support the swashbuckler.

Alternatively, you could play a warrior with high dex and charisma scores and decent intelligence for similar results, sacrificing thieving utility for combat prowess.