[PF] Creating a Rogue/Wizard Assassin

[TheTyrantis]

So a while back, I had an idea for trying to create a shapeshifting assassin without using a shapeshifting monster, since I've not seen many of either Assassins, more to the point not many Shapeshifting Assassins (like Zam Wesell in Star Wars). I narrowed down two untemplated races that I could do this with, Kitsune (despite being the shapeshifter subtype) and Fetchlings (because they have Disguise Self as a spell-like ability). I'm pretty good at coming up with back stories, so whatever race I decide on will be set-up nicely on that front.

The only real problem I'm having is the class set-up. I'm good at picking feats, spells, etc. but I've never done a multi-class with Rogue and Wizard yet (and probably with Assassin prestige, since he/she is supposed to be an assassin). Since I know GITP is pretty good at coming up with ridiculous things (in a good sense), I was hoping I could get some suggestions for class build itself. I'm open to most possibilities as long as they make sense (I'm like a Vulcan, I prefer it when things are logical and not contrived to the point where I can't even work with it.)

[NightbringerGGZ]

I've played a Kitsune Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) that was built around Shapeshifting. With the Dervish Dance feat at level 1, doubled Inspire Courage bonuses to myself, Bard spell casting and all of the skill points available to a Bard I was quite effective and sneaky. The build is a ton of fun and I highly recommend it.

Alternatively you could use the recent ruling that a Spell Like Ability counts as knowing a spell so that you qualify for early entry into Arcane Trickster. Any race that gives you a level 2 arcane SLA will let you grab 3 levels of Rouge and 1 level of Wizard. Alternatively, 3 levels of Ninja and 1 level of Sorcerer would work as well.

[Ravens_cry]

Just because you are an assassin does not mean you have to be a prestige class, capital letter, Assassin. My choice? Go Arcane Trickster if you want a prestige class. It advances both your rogue side and your arcane side and has some nice little extra tricks, especially the capstone. Being able to sneak attack with a fireball? Heck yeah! With Magical knack, you are only 1 CL behind even if you go the 'normal' route.
Seriously though, I see no reason to go Assassin. Death Attack stinks. In 3 rounds, you probably can kill the guy. They get a few interesting tricks, but they are more useful for NPC's attacking PC's.

[grarrrg]

Minimal lost casting:
Alchemist 1 / Wizard 4 / Assassin 1 / Arcane Trickster 10 / Wizard (or other PrC) +4

The first five levels can be taken in any order. With the Trait your caster level = your HD.
Alchemist is Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist)+Mindchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/mindchemist) archetypes. Vivisectionist for Sneak instead of Bomb, and Mindchemist for Conatogen (+INT!) instead of Mutagen.
AND you still get Brew Potion as a bonus feat! (and Throw Anything, although that is less useful).

7d6 Sneak dice, and 18 caster levels is pretty sweet.
You do only get 9 Bab this way though (10 if fractions). Stay away from 'touch attacks' and you'll be good.

[Psyren]

Ninja->Crimson Assassin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/red-mantis-assassin) is a nice one since it actually lets you Death Attack during combat without getting your ass kicked (particularly in a one-on-one fight.) And unlike the regular PF assassin, you get spells, which you can choose from the sorc/wiz list (transmutation/illusion only.)

[Ravens_cry]

Ninja->Crimson Assassin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/red-mantis-assassin) is a nice one since it actually lets you Death Attack during combat without getting your ass kicked (particularly in a one-on-one fight.) And unlike the regular PF assassin, you get spells, which you can choose from the sorc/wiz list (transmutation/illusion only.)
Also known as the Red Mantis Assassin, but changed in the PFSRD website for copyright reasons I don't pretend to understand.
NightbringerGGZ, where was this ruling about spell like abilities made?
How does that even work anyway? How do prestige classes that advance your spell casting advance your spell-like abilities?

[Souju]

as far as races, if you want some verisimilitude if you decide to go a ninja (which works great since they get Poison Use, and some of the ninja tricks are downright MEAN) you can make an Oni-Spawn tiefling, who gets the bonus of having ALTER self rather than DISGUISE self as the SLA:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling

an Angel-blooded Aasimar has the same spell as a bonus, and no stat penalty.
But tieflings are just plain fun.

Also, rather than a wizard, it may be worth considering Sorcerer, especially the Fey Bloodline. Greater Invis as a bloodline ability is just plain mean, and the other bonuses just have "assassin" written all over them. Having rogue-ish feats as bonus feats is a plus as well. For this, though, I'd actually recommend not going with the oni-spawn tiefling since they have a -2 to CHA

[grarrrg]

NightbringerGGZ, where was this ruling about spell like abilities made?
How does that even work anyway? How do prestige classes that advance your spell casting advance your spell-like abilities?

FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow), and it specifically DOES work for PrC's.
As for "+1 level of spellcasting"? You'd just get NOTHING.
So you'd better have at least 1 level of a relevant class.

But note the next answer down in that FAQ. Spell-likes default to Wizard/Sorc if able. That means Arcane PrC's have (potentially) lower entry requirements (depending on wording).

Example: You can _potentially_ enter Mystic Theurge as a Tiefling/Aasimar/other at level 5-ish, with only 1 level of [arcane caster]. Potentially as low as 4th level, if you can manage 2 spell-likes, one of which is Divine-only (4th would be the lowest, as there is no way to break Max Skill Ranks yet).

[Ravens_cry]

FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow), and it specifically DOES work for PrC's.
As for "+1 level of spellcasting"? You'd just get NOTHING.
So you'd better have at least 1 level of a relevant class.

But note the next answer down in that FAQ. Spell-likes default to Wizard/Sorc if able. That means Arcane PrC's have (potentially) lower entry requirements (depending on wording).
Interesting. Thank you.

[NightbringerGGZ]

NightbringerGGZ, where was this ruling about spell like abilities made?
How does that even work anyway? How do prestige classes that advance your spell casting advance your spell-like abilities?

The FAQ link grarrrg provides has the details. Basically having a SLA is treated the same as "able to cast x-level arcane/divine spell" for requirements. This has some fun implications like being able to pick up Arcane Strike on pure martial characters or early access to Prestige Classes.

So consider an Arcane Trickster Ninja/Sorcerer build while choosing a Tiefling or Aasimar as your race. You take one level of Sorcerer so that you have spell levels to advance. Take the Magical Lineage trait to boost your caster level by 2 effective levels. Go with 3 levels of Ninja to get your sneak attack dice and some useful Ki Powers. Start taking levels of Arcane Trickster from level 5 and on.

Your spells known will be 4 levels behind, but your effective caster level is only reduced by 1 level. Your sneak attack damage is only one level behind. You are a spontaneous caster, which is nice. If you go with a Dex-based build (Dervish Dance or 3.5 material) you can avoid some of the MAD pitfalls of the standard Wizard/Rogue build. You even get the first level blood-line bonus from being a sorcerer and have the option of using the Eldritch Heritage feat to pick up the rest if you like =P.

[Ravens_cry]

Another option is the Master Spy PrC. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/master-spy) It gives 1d6 sneak attack at first level, so if you go some other class what gives sneak attack (take your pick) and you are interested in focusing on your casting, you can get into arcane trickster with only two lost levels in your spell casting class and, with Mystic Lineage, no CL lost.

[TheTyrantis]

Another option is the Master Spy PrC. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/master-spy) It gives 1d6 sneak attack at first level, so if you go some other class what gives sneak attack (take your pick) and you are interested in focusing on your casting, you can get into arcane trickster with only two lost levels in your spell casting class and, with Mystic Lineage, no CL lost.

If I chose this class, how many levels would I go into it before I jumped off? Just a single dip or more?

I'm still watching this thread btw, I'm just acting as a voyeur as the suggestions pile-up. Certainly some better ideas than I originally had:smallwink:

[NightbringerGGZ]

You would dip just a single level. 1 level of Rogue/Ninja/Alchemist(Vivisectionist) plus one level of Master Spy at level 8 and go into Arcane Trickster at level 9.

Personally I don't think it's worth it. There's a high cost in terms of feats and you'll spend all of your early levels as a pure spell caster instead of the mix like you seem to want.

By the way, have you considered going Inquisitor? You get some of the rogue tricks, divine spell casting from first level and can be really effective in combat.

[grarrrg]

You would dip just a single level. 1 level of Rogue/Ninja/Alchemist(Vivisectionist) plus one level of Master Spy at level 8 and go into Arcane Trickster at level 9.

There are 6 options for PrC with 1st level Sneak Attack
Assassin, Evil, 1 skill at 5, 1 skill at 2
Gray Gardener, 2nd level Divine spells, LOTS skills, Combat Reflexes feat
Inner Sea Pirate, Nonlawful, 3 skills at 5 ranks each
Master Spy, 2 feats, 2 skills at 7, 2 skills at 5
Red Mantis Assassin, Lawful Evil, LOTS feats, LOTS skills
Sleepless Detective, Alertness, 3 skills at 5, 1 at 2 ranks.

Your easiest bets are Assassin, Inner Sea Pirate, or Sleepless Detective.
I'd lean towards Sleepless Detective, no alignment non-sense, and the entry feat is decent (if you don't have a familiar).


By the way, have you considered going Inquisitor? You get some of the rogue tricks, divine spell casting from first level and can be really effective in combat.

Gray Gardener (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/gray-gardener) seems a decent fit for this.
It's basically "Inquisitor as a PrC", 3/4 Bab, and 7/10 casting, some Judgements, some Bane, but with 3d6 Sneak added on.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Ninja->Crimson Assassin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/red-mantis-assassin) is a nice one since it actually lets you Death Attack during combat without getting your ass kicked (particularly in a one-on-one fight.) And unlike the regular PF assassin, you get spells, which you can choose from the sorc/wiz list (transmutation/illusion only.)If you're actually going to take an assassin class, I'll also recommend the Crimson/Red Mantis Assasin. You get some interesting powers (though you have to use the weird saw-tooth saber), and you get spells, and you get a Mantis God to worship.


In general, though, I'd recommend against take either class and that you instead try to create something similar with other classes.