In the middle of re-reading Complete Mage.

[tadkins]

And I think reading these forums has either corrupted me or prevented me from believing the entry on blasting.

"As a blaster, you are the anchor of an adventuring party."

Even though it's generally agreed here that blasting is a terrible way to go about playing a caster.

Just a funny thought I had.

[GilesTheCleric]

It's still true in two cases. 1: low-op parties, low-op encounters. 2: you're a heavy weight the party has to drag behind them and that is only useful in limited circumstances.

[Flickerdart]

Blasting is useful in two cases: when the dudes you fight are immune to every status effect (so high-op Mailman blasting is the only thing to affect them at all), and when the dudes you fight are so crap that buffing or BFC is useless because they die from a single sword strike or fireball anyway. It seems to be the general impression that this is exactly what the playtest was like.

[ahenobarbi]

Blasting is a good tool to have in your wizard toolbox. It shouldn't be only tool in your toolbox though. And as it eats your spells slots really quick you can't use it too much.

[gr8artist]

I don't get why everyone hates evocation so much. It's one of the most fun schools, other than transmutation (which is better in pretty much every way except damage). I mean, who doesn't love Fireball?
If you know that the campaign is going to be a lot more goblin-horde, a lot less mystic-puzzle, then I think Blaster/Evocator is a fun way to play.
At least as good as the fighter/barb, at least.

Protip: Get the MM feat from BoED that keeps good creatures from being hurt by your spells. Throw fireballs at party+monsters, and it's not your fault they're getting burned. Tell them to consider it punishment for their evil ways. :smallbiggrin:

Also, always always always reflavor your spells. Flaming sphere gets a lot more interesting when it's not a ball, but a shapeshifting animal creature. Magic missile needs a lot of love; describe it as a magical bow that fires up to five arrows, or calling beams of starlight down from the sky, or (when hitting one creature with all 5) describe it as a roaring dragon's head, that dodges and rolls around obstacles.

[Yuki Akuma]

Conjuration is better at blasting that Evocation. Even if you want to be a blaster, banning Evocation is fine.

And (Greater) Shadow Evocation can mimic almost every Evocation spell worth a damn.

That's why people think Evocation is weak. Conjuration does almost everything it's good at, plus extra, and Illusion can do the rest.

The only good Evocations are Wall of Force, Forcecage and Contingency - the first two of which can be imitated using Greater Shadow Illusion anyway, and the latter of which has a feat version that is in some ways better.

The only Wizard I can think of that wouldn't ban Evocation would be one who took Arcane Disciple (Luck), so he can cast Miracle once a day.

[ahenobarbi]

I don't get why everyone hates evocation so much. It's one of the most fun schools, other than transmutation (which is better in pretty much every way except damage). I mean, who doesn't love Fireball?

Me, since I waste one trying to hit group of folks with evasion.


The only good Evocations are Wall of Force, Forcecage and Contingency - the first two of which can be imitated using Greater Shadow Illusion anyway, and the latter of which has a feat version that is in some ways better.

There is a serious problem with illusion wall of force - will save to pass through it.

And there are some nice spells in the school (I'm lazy (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1152046)).

[Spuddles]

Conjuration is better at blasting that Evocation. Even if you want to be a blaster, banning Evocation is fine.

And (Greater) Shadow Evocation can mimic almost every Evocation spell worth a damn.

That's why people think Evocation is weak. Conjuration does almost everything it's good at, plus extra, and Illusion can do the rest.

The only good Evocations are Wall of Force, Forcecage and Contingency - the first two of which can be imitated using Greater Shadow Illusion anyway, and the latter of which has a feat version that is in some ways better.

The only Wizard I can think of that wouldn't ban Evocation would be one who took Arcane Disciple (Luck), so he can cast Miracle once a day.

Conjuration tends to have smaller aoes and use higher level spell slots compared to evocation. Compare scorching ray vs orb of fire- both do 8d6 when a sorcerer first gets them, but the ray is two levels lower. Compare 4th lvl arc of lightning to 3rd level fireball.

Conjuration is "better" if you like making single target attacks vs. opponents with spell resistance.

Shadow evocation is terrible- enemies get will & reflex saves and you have to burn higher level slots. The non-damaging evocations arent useful if you shadow evoke them, as they now allow will saves.

[Yuki Akuma]

Me, since I waste one trying to hit group of folks with evasion.



There is a serious problem with illusion wall of force - will save to pass through it.

And there are some nice spells in the school (I'm lazy (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1152046)).

It is possible to increase the percentage reality of Shadow Illusion spells to 100% (or even higher), although that does require specialisation.


Shadow evocation is terrible- enemies get will & reflex saves and you have to burn higher level slots. The non-damaging evocations arent useful if you shadow evoke them, as they now allow will saves.

Why on Earth are you casting Evocations that require reflex saves with Shadow Evocation? Don't do that.

As for the second reason, see above. It doesn't matter if they pass the Will save if the illusion is 100% real on a successful save anyway.

[Spuddles]

It is possible to increase the percentage reality of Shadow Illusion spells to 100% (or even higher), although that does require specialisation.



Why on Earth are you casting Evocations that require reflex saves with Shadow Evocation? Don't do that.

As for the second reason, see above. It doesn't matter if they pass the Will save if the illusion is 100% real on a successful save anyway.

That's a huge investment to basically cast evocation spells, but using a spell slot a level higher.

As long as we're pretending broken prestige classes inform us about the utility of schools as opposed to offering us a corner case, persisting all the things is way stronger.

[Emperor Tippy]

Evocation has a number of good and unique effects, what it sucks at is blasting and direct damage.

You don't use Evocation to cast Fireball, you use it to cast Tiny Hut. Party wide total concealment that lasts hours per level, casts as a standard action, has no expensive components, and is third level? That is great.

And the best part is that it isn't an illusion so little things like True Seeing don't negate it.

There are a ton of evocation spells that provide difficult or impossible to effectively replicate abilities that are quite useful and generally quite cheap. They just aren't useful to deal damage to your foes.

[ahenobarbi]

It is possible to increase the percentage reality of Shadow Illusion spells to 100% (or even higher), although that does require specialisation.

It doesn't matter if they're 200% real, because that text is in spell description:


Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect.

[Deophaun]

Conjuration tends to have smaller aoes...
Not really. When Conjuration blasting spells do have an AoE effect (generally rare, I grant you), they have wider coverage than evocation spells. Blast of flame at level 4 is a 60-ft cone, which is more than anything evocation gets you. Plus, evocation has nothing to compete with the 10 mile/level radius of apocalypse from the sky.

Conjuration is "better" if you like making single target attacks vs. opponents with spell resistance.
Or function in an AMF, or deal with creatures with evasion.

Shadow evocation is terrible- enemies get will & reflex saves and you have to burn higher level slots. The non-damaging evocations arent useful if you shadow evoke them, as they now allow will saves.
I've found this complaint to be overrated, as it is much easier to boost the DCs for Illusion spells than it is for Evocation. There are far more class features, items, and feats for them. And if you are building a dedicated, non-mailman blaster, you make a shadowcraft mage, not an evoker.

[eggynack]

Conjuration tends to have smaller aoes and use higher level spell slots compared to evocation. Compare scorching ray vs orb of fire- both do 8d6 when a sorcerer first gets them, but the ray is two levels lower. Compare 4th lvl arc of lightning to 3rd level fireball.

Conjuration is "better" if you like making single target attacks vs. opponents with spell resistance.
That does sound quite a bit better to me. You're also bypassing AMF's, which is a thing that's difficult to do, and getting a handy debuff on top of that. Another factor is that scorching ray requires two attack rolls to get the damage in, which can be relevant, and is worse against fire resistance, which can also be relevant. Finally, I'd probably rather cast a BFC against a crowd of weak enemies anyway. You get the applicability against a horde of goblins, which is nice, but it's also good against things that are not hordes of goblins (Not specifically that, just the encounter type), which I doubly nice.

[Qc Storm]

I don't get why everyone hates evocation so much. It's one of the most fun schools, other than transmutation (which is better in pretty much every way except damage). I mean, who doesn't love Fireball?
If you know that the campaign is going to be a lot more goblin-horde, a lot less mystic-puzzle, then I think Blaster/Evocator is a fun way to play.
At least as good as the fighter/barb, at least.

Protip: Get the MM feat from BoED that keeps good creatures from being hurt by your spells. Throw fireballs at party+monsters, and it's not your fault they're getting burned. Tell them to consider it punishment for their evil ways. :smallbiggrin:

Also, always always always reflavor your spells. Flaming sphere gets a lot more interesting when it's not a ball, but a shapeshifting animal creature. Magic missile needs a lot of love; describe it as a magical bow that fires up to five arrows, or calling beams of starlight down from the sky, or (when hitting one creature with all 5) describe it as a roaring dragon's head, that dodges and rolls around obstacles.

As a Blaster Sorcerer, Evocation is extremely disappointing. All the good Evocation spells are NOT evocation. Good example being the Orb of Energy line.

[Zeb]

ON the original topic:

Blasting does HP damage, the way the rest of the party is defeating things is usually HP damage.

Just like an ubercharger a good blaster is the anchor for solving combat encounters, put lots of damage on the bag guys.

While other schools of thought might make killing easier, make you better or them weaker or even remove obstacles altogether; If you sit down as a blaster or most other dps roles then you are what puts the enemies down.


ON the tangent: Evocation does not always equal blasting nor do all other schools equal not blasting.

[eggynack]

ON the tangent: Evocation does not always equal blasting nor do all other schools equal not blasting.
True enough. If anything makes evocation a school that you won't just ban on the spot, it's all the not-blasting stuff. With only blasting, it's solidly the worst school in the game. With the whole school, I'd put it at something like second or third worst, with enchantment at the bottom, and necromancy futzing around in the same general area. Sure, shadow evocation gets evocation closer to redundant than most schools are, but it's an imperfect redundancy at best. I can't see a real way to copy the whole school in such a way that doesn't require the expenditure of build resources.

[Spuddles]

Not really. When Conjuration blasting spells do have an AoE effect (generally rare, I grant you), they have wider coverage than evocation spells. Blast of flame at level 4 is a 60-ft cone, which is more than anything evocation gets you. Plus, evocation has nothing to compete with the 10 mile/level radius of apocalypse from the sky.

Or function in an AMF, or deal with creatures with evasion.

I've found this complaint to be overrated, as it is much easier to boost the DCs for Illusion spells than it is for Evocation. There are far more class features, items, and feats for them. And if you are building a dedicated, non-mailman blaster, you make a shadowcraft mage, not an evoker.


That does sound quite a bit better to me. You're also bypassing AMF's, which is a thing that's difficult to do, and getting a handy debuff on top of that. Another factor is that scorching ray requires two attack rolls to get the damage in, which can be relevant, and is worse against fire resistance, which can also be relevant. Finally, I'd probably rather cast a BFC against a crowd of weak enemies anyway. You get the applicability against a horde of goblins, which is nice, but it's also good against things that are not hordes of goblins (Not specifically that, just the encounter type), which I doubly nice.

How often are you running into antimagic fields at level 8? Or spell resistance fo that matter?

Conjuration is more useful post level 10 for blasting, as the spell slots arent so painful to lose. I would rather use my 4ths for black tentacles or wings of flurry than blast of flame or orb of energy. If you want to do single target damage with a ranged touch attack, acid arrow or scorching ray are usually sufficient.

Conjuration as superior blasting school comes from a pretty specific playstyle that favors single target damage getting through SR, saves, evasion, and a bunch of other stuff a group of five frost giants dont have.

Saveless Conjurations are particularly good against outsiders, as they have relatively low HP, high saves, and good SR, and relatively high CRs so you wont be facing a horde.

Evocations are good vs humanoids, giants, animals, some magical beasts, vermin, and some monstrous humanoids, if only because of relatively low CRs you can expect to fight a lot of them and they tend to lack SR. Stuff like orcs on dire wolves, goblin aerial cavalry, and so forth.

[Deophaun]

How often are you running into antimagic fields at level 8? Or spell resistance fo that matter?
Oh, I have stories that would be right at home in the Chief Circle discussions. Let's just say that despite how much I like to play with enervation and evard's black tentacles, I have been conditioned to grab burst of flame or burst of sand first (and, on occasion, cackle with laughter when acquiring doom scarabs). And I find blasting boring.

[hamishspence]

And I think reading these forums has either corrupted me or prevented me from believing the entry on blasting.

"As a blaster, you are the anchor of an adventuring party."

Well, an anchor does prevent a boat from going anywhere, when it's being used...

[Raven777]

Shadow evocation is terrible- enemies get will & reflex saves and you have to burn higher level slots. The non-damaging evocations arent useful if you shadow evoke them, as they now allow will saves.

Ahem. Not (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjTVF4NEY4SXpSTUU/edit?pli=1) quite (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjR1dOeEVkRUU4WlU/edit?pli=1).

[Psyren]

This is going to be the enchantment thread all over again. Evocation isn't bad, it's just that other schools are better. An Evoker Wizard is still a Wizard.


It doesn't matter if they're 200% real, because that text is in spell description:

Good point!

[ahenobarbi]

Ahem. Not (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjTVF4NEY4SXpSTUU/edit?pli=1) quite (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjR1dOeEVkRUU4WlU/edit?pli=1).

As I wrote

It doesn't matter if they're 200% real, because that text is in spell description:

Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect.

[Story]

The only Wizard I can think of that wouldn't ban Evocation would be one who took Arcane Disciple (Luck), so he can cast Miracle once a day.

Also Domain Generalists of course.

[Psyren]

And Diviners, who would be more likely to put Enchantment on the chopping block (since the few offensive divinations tend to be will saves.)

[Raven777]

As I wrote

Except that a Shadow Evocation's DC can be much higher than the emulated spell's regular version. And Shadow Evocation gives you any Evocation spell at the cost of a single spell known.

Anybody belittling Shadow Evocation was never on the business end of an Arcane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline) Umbral (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/umbral) Tenebrous (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/tenebrous-spell-metamagic) Persistent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic) Intensified Perfect (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection) Specialized (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-specialization) Shadow Dragon Breath.

Or has never seen a Shadow Resilient Sphere being put up and auto-disbelieved by its own caster, leaving his spells unhindered while enemies are kept out.

Or seen Shadow Darkness being put up on the fighter's sword before a battle, the whole party disbelieving the illusion after being told about it, and joining the fight in a ball of darkness they can see perfectly through, but not their enemies.

Now, arguably, the Shadow Conjuration line is even better. My lifelong dream is to pull off an instant cast (Shades) Create Demiplane to get out of a BBEG's trap, just to see the look on the DM's face.

[Psyren]

Shadow Dragon Breath deals negative levels instead of damage, right? So it's a "nondamaging effect." And a Shadow Resilient Sphere is nondamaging too.

You casting spells through your sphere would be "proof that it isn't real" and thus they would disbelieve it with no save, making you vulnerable.

[DR27]

"Anchor of a party" is an overstatement. Saying "always drop evocation" is too. It's that whole "sith deal in absolutes" quote that illustrates the problem with defending either side of the argument. There are cool things in Evocation, and a spellcaster that uses those cool things won't be useless, but also probably won't be rewriting reality and breaking campaigns as their primary function. Blasting exclusively sucks. Blasting frequently while still doing other things? Probably still the strongest member of your party using the traditional party of 4 setup, which is probably what whomever wrote that original quote was basing his advice on.

Ideally, you wouldn't be dropping schools that often. (:cough:Elven Generalist:cough:) But like the Treantmonk guide points out, you could easily find spells from Evocation that you would want up to level 7:

Focused Specialists: My test for whether a school should be considered for FS is this: Can you think of 3 memorizations that you would want in that school for every level of spell? My answer as far as Evocation goes – yes up to 7th level spells. Therefore – I would consider an Evocation FS for a campaign up to level 14 – beyond that – you might find the Evocation School overly restrictive.Evocation isn't useless, and has some truly cool spells for a Sorcerer in particular. (Wings of X, anybody?) But because it isn't the absolute strongest, suddenly forums become alight with sarcastic comments that you can't help your party:
Well, an anchor does prevent a boat from going anywhere, when it's being used...Which are blatantly untrue unless you are blasting and doing absolutely nothing else. You can blast while also carrying battlefield control spells, or even picking Evocation blasts that have debuffs as riders. Or pick up Fell Drain - who wouldn't love a Fell Drain-ed Manyjaws? Point being, using Evocation spells doesn't mean that you can't also throw your allies some buffs or throw up some battlefield control/defenses.

You are still a Tier 1 character unless you became a Focused Specialist who banned Conjuration, Transmutation, and Illusion or something. Even then, the remaining schools are probably Tier 1. Is there even a way to ban the right schools in order to prevent a Focused Specialist from having Tier 1 flexibility?

[Emperor Tippy]

You are still a Tier 1 character unless you became a Focused Specialist who banned Conjuration, Transmutation, and Illusion or something. Even then, the remaining schools are probably Tier 1. Is there even a way to ban the right schools in order to prevent a Focused Specialist from having Tier 1 flexibility?

Unless you go fairly high op and/or high cheese pretty much every FS is a powerful tier 2, virtually none of them make Tier 1. They give up too much flexibility and versatility, and the only difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is that exact flexibility versatility.

An FS can have more raw power than a wizard, just like a Sorcerer will (absent fairly high op) usually have more raw power than a wizard but (just like the Sorcerer) it is still Tier 2.

[eggynack]

This is going to be the enchantment thread all over again. Evocation isn't bad, it's just that other schools are better. An Evoker Wizard is still a Wizard.

Wasn't there already an evoker thread before the enchantment thread? This seems a lot more like that.

[eggynack]

Unless you go fairly high op and/or high cheese pretty much every FS is a powerful tier 2, virtually none of them make Tier 1. They give up too much flexibility and versatility, and the only difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is that exact flexibility versatility.

An FS can have more raw power than a wizard, just like a Sorcerer will (absent fairly high op) usually have more raw power than a wizard but (just like the Sorcerer) it is still Tier 2.
You say this a lot, and it seems fairly untrue. A focused specialist likely has more spell versatility than a given cleric or druid, and those classes are tier one, so a focused specialist wizard is also tier one. A wizard can trade some long term flexibility for some day to day flexibility and power, and not face a reduction in tier. You may be correct that a focused specialist wizard is worse, but it's not worse by nearly enough.

[ahenobarbi]

Except that a Shadow Evocation's DC can be much higher than the emulated spell's regular version. And Shadow Evocation gives you any Evocation spell at the cost of a single spell known.

Anybody belittling Shadow Evocation was never on the business end of an Arcane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline) Umbral (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/umbral) Tenebrous (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/tenebrous-spell-metamagic) Persistent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic) Intensified Perfect (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection) Specialized (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-specialization) Shadow Dragon Breath.

Or has never seen a Shadow Resilient Sphere being put up and auto-disbelieved by its own caster, leaving his spells unhindered while enemies are kept out.

Or seen Shadow Darkness being put up on the fighter's sword before a battle, the whole party disbelieving the illusion after being told about it, and joining the fight in a ball of darkness they can see perfectly through, but not their enemies.

Now, arguably, the Shadow Conjuration line is even better. My lifelong dream is to pull off an instant cast (Shades) Create Demiplane to get out of a BBEG's trap, just to see the look on the DM's face.

I'm not saying Shadow X spells aren't awesome. They are, for a number of reasons. However they don't duplicate all aspects of some evocation spells. For example one the selling point of Wall of force is that it's hard to pass through it without expending resources. Shadow Wall of Force can be passed through with a successful will save. OTOH it might be a good point, letting you split enemy group (because those who made the save are on you side of the wall, while those who failed remain on the other).

[Snowbluff]

I'm not saying Shadow X spells aren't awesome. They are, for a number of reasons. However they don't duplicate all aspects of some evocation spells. For example one the selling point of Wall of force is that it's hard to pass through it without expending resources. Shadow Wall of Force can be passed through with a successful will save. OTOH it might be a good point, letting you split enemy group (because those who made the save are on you side of the wall, while those who failed remain on the other).
If you get a save versus Wall of Force or Forcecage, the Wizard is wasting his time. What's that? Yes, those are some of the best evocation spells. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

You say this a lot, and it seems fairly untrue. A focused specialist likely has more spell versatility than a given cleric or druid, and those classes are tier one, so a focused specialist wizard is also tier one. A wizard can trade some long term flexibility for some day to day flexibility and power, and not face a reduction in tier. You may be correct that a focused specialist wizard is worse, but it's not worse by nearly enough.

This. It's just hyperbole. Treantmonk's analysis debunked "Focused Specialist is T2" pretty clearly in my mind.

[Emperor Tippy]

You say this a lot, and it seems fairly untrue. A focused specialist likely has more spell versatility than a given cleric or druid, and those classes are tier one, so a focused specialist wizard is also tier one. A wizard can trade some long term flexibility for some day to day flexibility and power, and not face a reduction in tier. You may be correct that a focused specialist wizard is worse, but it's not worse by nearly enough.

A Cleric has the most day to day flexibility of anything in the game except a high OP Psion and a couple of truly high op and absurd wizard builds.

A Cleric can go from being one of the best necromancers and minion masters in the game to a melee monster to a diviner to the ultimate healer to a social con king to pretty much anything else in the entire game on 24 hours notice.

A Druid can do the same thing to a slightly lesser extent (due to a somewhat less capable spell list).

----
Specialization in the first place is vastly overrated. It is giving up two schools of magic for (at level 17+) 285,000 GP worth of items (that being the cost of a Pearl of Power of each level). Focused Specialist is giving up three schools for 570,000 GP of items.

And that is the level 17+ value, its worse GP wise at lower levels.

The only time a specialist really benefits you is in a very low level game where you often don't have enough spell slots to actually make it through the day, but by level 5 or so you should be able to get through the day just fine with your native spell slots.

And with Domain Wizard, Elf Generalist, and a Gray Elf you really aren't that far behind an FS is terms of spell slots and yet you have given up nothing for those extra slots.

---
If you agree that a Sorcerer is Tier 2, and it is pretty much the standard by which Tier 2 is defined so that shouldn't be in dispute, then what does an FS actually have over it?

A decently built Sorcerer will often be better and more useful than an FS, especially in higher level play and extra especially if the Sorcerer is allowed to use Psychic Reformation or Limited Wish to repick powers known.

---
An FS is powerful, capable, and can still break a world into little pieces if it wants but it has given up the strategic flexibility that defines tier 1 for more tactical power.

[eggynack]

A Cleric has the most day to day flexibility of anything in the game except a high OP Psion and a couple of truly high op and absurd wizard builds.

A Cleric can go from being one of the best necromancers and minion masters in the game to a melee monster to a diviner to the ultimate healer to a social con king to pretty much anything else in the entire game on 24 hours notice.

A Druid can do the same thing to a slightly lesser extent (due to a somewhat less capable spell list).
I thought that day to day versatility was basically irrelevant in your view. All that matters, according to your definition of tier, is the total variety of effects that a character has within his career.



Specialization in the first place is vastly overrated. It is giving up two schools of magic for (at level 17+) 285,000 GP worth of items (that being the cost of a Pearl of Power of each level). Focused Specialist is giving up three schools for 570,000 GP of items.

And that is the level 17+ value, its worse GP wise at lower levels.

The only time a specialist really benefits you is in a very low level game where you often don't have enough spell slots to actually make it through the day, but by level 5 or so you should be able to get through the day just fine with your native spell slots.
Pearls of power are only a perfect replacement for the actual slots if you're assuming that a given wizard is going to cast two of the same spell at every spell level. You're basically giving up just about all of your money for these items, to the extent that you may not even have a higher career versatility, because you can't copy as many spells.


And with Domain Wizard, Elf Generalist, and a Gray Elf you really aren't that far behind an FS is terms of spell slots and yet you have given up nothing for those extra slots.
This is true. Domain wizard is probably better than specialist, and elf generalist gets you even further. That's mostly just because domain wizard is an even more ridiculously powerful option, and it doesn't push wizards down a tier in any respect.


If you agree that a Sorcerer is Tier 2, and it is pretty much the standard by which Tier 2 is defined so that shouldn't be in dispute, then what does an FS actually have over it?

A decently built Sorcerer will often be better and more useful than an FS, especially in higher level play and extra especially if the Sorcerer is allowed to use Psychic Reformation or Limited Wish to repick powers known.
A massive amount of possible spells. Seriously, even after banning three schools, a focused specialist wizard is going to have way more spells in his spellbook than a sorcerer will have in his spells known. Just as an example, a 20th level sorcerer knows five first level spells. In core alone, there are 39 first level spells. Getting rid of evocation, enchantment, and necromancy gets you to 29 first level spells. That's almost six times as many. The disparity gets even greater out of core.


An FS is powerful, capable, and can still break a world into little pieces if it wants but it has given up the strategic flexibility that defines tier 1 for more tactical power.
No, the FS has given up some of the strategic flexibility that defines a wizard for more tactical power. He still has more than enough strategic flexibility to be a tier one.

[Psyren]

If you agree that a Sorcerer is Tier 2, and it is pretty much the standard by which Tier 2 is defined so that shouldn't be in dispute, then what does an FS actually have over it?

The same advantage as any other wizard, unlimited arbitrarily high potential spells known. The ability to prepare one-offs like Locate Object or Nondetection or Clone to solve very specific problems without impacting their daily power, or having to resort to items. The freedom to prepare "one-cast-wonders" like Rope Trick or Guards and Wards.

[eggynack]

I just found a list that purports to have counted all of the wizard/sorcerer spells. At first level, there's a total of 123 spells, and cutting three schools leaves you with a maximum of 96 (There're more evocation spells than abjuration spells of that level, so 93 may be more likely). Sorcerers get five. Wizards thus have the capacity to know over 19 times more first level spells than sorcerers do. Even at 9th level, where the disparity is likely at its lowest, the FS wizard has 47 spells to the sorcerer's 3, leaving the wizard with about 16 times as many spells. That's a hell of a lot of difference.

[DR27]

(E)ven after banning three schools, a focused specialist wizard is going to have way more spells in his spellbook than a sorcerer will have in his spells known. Just as an example, a 20th level sorcerer knows five first level spells. In core alone, there are 39 first level spells. Getting rid of evocation, enchantment, and necromancy gets you to 29 first level spells. That's almost six times as many. The disparity gets even greater out of core.This is what I was thinking - I don't know that any combination of school bannings will actually fall out of T1. Even a Focused Enchanter who bans Conjuration, Transmutation, and Illusion is still going to have a zillion options at each level. Totally gimped in comparison to a generalist, but has tons of debuffs/soul manipulation/minions/etc from Necromancy, advance knowledge from divination, something from Enchantment (but is mostly wasted slots), good defenses from Abjuration, and whatever limited battlefield control/etc from Evocation. And he gets all the options from those schools. He ends up with tons more options than a Sorcerer - hypothetical terrible-op FS is probably still T1. It really hinges on that Sorcerer's access to Psychic Reformation or an Ancestral Relic Runestaff in order to actually out-options even the crappiest combination of Focused Specialist. If it does have access to either of those, then the Sorcerer in question has got a pretty good case for T1. Probably.

[Emperor Tippy]

The same advantage as any other wizard, unlimited arbitrarily high potential spells known. The ability to prepare one-offs like Locate Object or Nondetection or Clone to solve very specific problems without impacting their daily power, or having to resort to items. The freedom to prepare "one-cast-wonders" like Rope Trick or Guards and Wards.

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

That is the definition of Tier 2. It seems to be exactly what an FS Wizard is.

A wizard, even a regular specialist, can generally come up with a way to achieve any given objective on 24 hours notice. An FS can't say the same.

You can't give up Divination. I have yet to see the FS (outside of builds made for specific purposes or themes) that gives up Conjuration or Transmutation. The number of times that I have seen Abjuration given up can be measured on one hand.

What is left is Necromancy, Enchantment, Illusion, and Evocation.

Unless you are an FS Diviner, which three of those four schools of magic are you going to give up?

Pick three and I will star laying out encounters that you can not solve well (if at all) as an FS with those schools banned.

----
That is what stops an FS from being Tier 1. Not that they aren't versatile, not that they aren't powerful. But that they can't give you the solution for any problem on 24 hours notice out of native abilities. Many solutions, maybe even most? Sure. But virtually all? No.

"Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player."

That is Tier 1. If you can come up with CR appropriate challenges that a given class can't solve on 24 hours notice out of native ability then it does not qualify as Tier 1.

Now can you honestly state that an FS is really capable of doing absolutely everything (barring things like Shapechange, Zodar, Wish abuse) on a days notice?

Or instead would you say that you can make an FS that can do anything but that any given FS can and will run into problems and challenges that it can not solve out of native ability on 24 hours notice?

One of those is the definition of Tier 1, the other Tier 2.

[Psyren]

Pick three and I will star laying out encounters that you can not solve well (if at all) as an FS with those schools banned.

You know, I'm actually curious to see what you come up with. Necromancy, Enchantment, Evocation.

[Snowbluff]

I thought that day to day versatility was basically irrelevant in your view. All that matters, according to your definition of tier, is the total variety of effects that a character has within his career.
I think his post makes it clear that the cleric is capable of crazy, Wizard-level stuff. Domains give the game changing spells a cleric's list doesn't grant him innately.

A FS, on the other hand, loses out on a few of these spell by the simple act of specialization (before tricks, of course). A sorcerer can know Shapechange, Mindrape, and Ice Assassin all at once, which is way beyond what most people would need to ruin a game.

[Emperor Tippy]

You know, I'm actually curious to see what you come up with. Necromancy, Enchantment, Evocation.

Let's see.

Create and Control Undead.

Make a merchant believe that he saw another merchant rob him the previous week.

Fight and win a duel against an enemy caster on a plane where all magic except Evocation is Limited.

Are any of these likely challenges? No. Are they possible challenges that I have thrown at parties and PC's at one point or another? Yes.

[Invader]

The problem isn't that blasting isn't good. It's perfectly good and a totally viable to play a caster, outside of the playground.

In a regular unoptimized game a blaster wizard is still going to look like a god compared to everyone else in the party.

[eggynack]

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

That is the definition of Tier 2. It seems to be exactly what an FS Wizard is.

An FS wizard has far more than 10 nukes. Conjuration and transmutation alone offer innumerable ways to solve any given problem, probably in greater quantities than what a sorcerer has to offer. An FS wizard has a versatility far closer to that of a wizard than to that of a sorcerer.


A wizard, even a regular specialist, can generally come up with a way to achieve any given objective on 24 hours notice. An FS can't say the same.

You can't give up Divination. I have yet to see the FS (outside of builds made for specific purposes or themes) that gives up Conjuration or Transmutation. The number of times that I have seen Abjuration given up can be measured on one hand.

What is left is Necromancy, Enchantment, Illusion, and Evocation.

Unless you are an FS Diviner, which three of those four schools of magic are you going to give up?

Pick three and I will star laying out encounters that you can not solve well (if at all) as an FS with those schools banned.
I agree with Psyren that illusion is the school on the list that shouldn't be banned.


That is what stops an FS from being Tier 1. Not that they aren't versatile, not that they aren't powerful. But that they can't give you the solution for any problem on 24 hours notice out of native abilities. Many solutions, maybe even most? Sure. But virtually all? No.

"Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player."

That is Tier 1. If you can come up with CR appropriate challenges that a given class can't solve on 24 hours notice out of native ability then it does not qualify as Tier 1.

Now can you honestly state that an FS is really capable of doing absolutely everything (barring things like Shapechange, Zodar, Wish abuse) on a days notice?
Probably, at least to the same degree as a given druid or cleric. Giving examples of potential encounters that our noble wizard can't solve isn't really enough. You also have to prove that they're encounters that other tier ones can solve.




I think his post makes it clear that the cleric is capable of crazy, Wizard-level stuff. Domains give the game changing spells a cleric's list doesn't grant him innately.

A FS, on the other hand, loses out on a few of these spell by the simple act of specialization (before tricks, of course). A sorcerer can know Shapechange, Mindrape, and Ice Assassin all at once, which is way beyond what most people would need to ruin a game.
9th level spells are irrelevant for tier, so we should probably stick with not 9th's. Clerics can do some crazy wizard level stuff, but they can't do all of the crazy wizard level stuff, especially not at the same time. Domains can only get you so far, though they can get you pretty far.

[eggynack]

Let's see.

Create and Control Undead.

Make a merchant believe that he saw another merchant rob him the previous week.

Fight and win a duel against an enemy caster on a plane where all magic except Evocation is Limited.

Are any of these likely challenges? No. Are they possible challenges that I have thrown at parties and PC's at one point or another? Yes.
Apart from the duel scenario, which seems far more unlikely than the other two, these don't qualify as encounters. Why do you need to create and control undead? Why do you need to make a merchant believe that another merchant stole his stuff? You're presenting us with solutions that the FS wizard doesn't have access to. What you're not presenting us with are problems that the FS wizard can't solve. Unless there's a magical door that says, "Control these undead to enter," these scenarios don't qualify.

Edit: For example, for the undead situation, do you need these abilities because you need minions, or because you're fighting undead? In the former case, conjuration provides pretty good minionmancy, and in the latter case, there're obviously some spells that can deal with undead, with the particular answer likely depending on the situation. If you need both, you're really only losing slot efficiency by preparing the minion spell and the undead destroyer separately, and you gain slots by using FS, so it works out pretty well. For the merchant situation, I'm not entirely clear on what the goal is, but some sort of illusion of the one merchant stealing the other merchants stuff could probably get you pretty far. If that's not the reason for convincing the merchant of this, there's probably some illusion based solution that could work.

Double edit: Also, as I noted, you need things that other tier one classes can do, and druids are pretty incapable of both undead stuff and charming merchants.

[Psyren]

Let's see.

Create and Control Undead.

Make a merchant believe that he saw another merchant rob him the previous week.

Fight and win a duel against an enemy caster on a plane where all magic except Evocation is Limited.

Are any of these likely challenges? No. Are they possible challenges that I have thrown at parties and PC's at one point or another? Yes.

Conjuration can solve all of these.

(a) is easy, just bind something that can animate dead. A Lilitu is a good choice for instance, or better yet something that can do it as an SLA like an Ak'chazar. regular Planar Binding can enlist both.

(b) Here again you can call something with the powers you lack (enchantment in this case) to do your programming for you. This could be pulled off with something as simple as a carefully worded Suggestion, though likely you were thinking more along the lines of Modify Memory. Either way, anything with Bardic casting can do the trick, like a Liliend.

(c) Limited Magic planes prevent spells and SLAs that are not X from working there, but (a) they don't stop supernatural abilities and (b) they don't stop you from calling backup before you get there. Since all he's using is Evocation, you don't have much to worry about except for Forcecages, so call in something that's either too big for him to trap or that can supernaturally teleport free. Call in a few other things for good measure and go get him.

[Snowbluff]

I agree with Psyren that illusion is the school on the list that shouldn't be banned.

I agree, but only because I love Simulacrum so much. It's my spell. I've only cast it twice (in a game I made the DM rofl/ragequite. "I'm a Wizard, Nick."), but I love it. It's even got snow in it.



9th level spells are irrelevant for tier, so we should probably stick with not 9th's. Clerics can do some crazy wizard level stuff, but they can't do all of the crazy wizard level stuff, especially not at the same time. Domains can only get you so far, though they can get you pretty far.
Yes and no. I think it's a good measure for late game breaking power, which people often associate with higher Tier. The point is that the Sorcerer can fill the spells known he has with the broken spells, and have just as many of the spells that would determine tier. The ultimate question would be "Is there enough of these spells left for a Focused Specialist?"

Not that I am hatin' on the FS. I like it, and one of my most praised characters banned extra schools she thought could cause undue harm.

[eggynack]

Yes and no. I think it's a good measure for late game breaking power, which people often associate with higher Tier. The point is that the Sorcerer can fill the spells known he has with the broken spells, and have just as many of the spells that would determine tier. The ultimate question would be "Is there enough of these spells left for a Focused Specialist."

Not that I am hatin' on the FS. I like it, and one of my most praised characters banned extra schools she thought could cause undue harm.
It's correlated with a high tier, but that's mostly because that kind of late game ability usually means proportionally powerful early game abilities. However, it's not a causal factor, because healers and truenamers get gate, and they're in tiers 5 and 4'ish respectively. Moreover, you don't really need all that much more than one of those spells, because it gets you to such a high power level on its own. Meanwhile our FS wizard still has access to disjunction, gate, foresight, ice assassin, shapechange, time stop, and wish. Honestly, the only thing you're really missing out on is astral projection, because it protects you from danger in a way that other 9th's don't do as well. After you have one of the crazier 9th's, you're fine on offense, and you just need a way to not die.

[Emperor Tippy]

Apart from the duel scenario, which seems far more unlikely than the other two, these don't qualify as encounters.
Any wizards guild worth the name has its wizards duels on custom demiplanes set up to prevent cheating. Want to have an Evoker duel then it takes place on the arena plane that prevents all magic from other schools (possibly excepting Dispel Magic/ Greater Dispel Magic)?


Why do you need to create and control undead?
Because you need to become a member of the Necromancers Guild to gain access to information that is stored on a demiplane that Limits all magic except for Enchantment and Necromancy and is covered in permanent Mage's Private Sanctum spells. Said information is stored in the Chair of Necromancers Knowledge which is a piece of Wondrous Architecture/auto reset trap that only triggers when an individual sits in it, creates an undead creature, and then controls an undead creature. Upon success it uses Mind Rape to dump the required knowledge straight into your mind and upon exiting the chair it again uses Mind Rape except that this time it removes the knowledge.

That help?


Why do you need to make a merchant believe that another merchant stole his stuff?
Because you want the first merchant to bring charges against the second merchant so that you can get merchant 2 into your debt by proving that merchant 1 is lying only to later prove that merchant 1 was the victim of Local Wizard Bob so that you can get state sanction to remove Bob, steal his stuff, and get yourself set up as the Local Wizard.


You're presenting us with solutions that the FS wizard doesn't have access to. What you're not presenting us with are problems that the FS wizard can't solve. Unless there's a magical door that says, "Control these undead to enter," these scenarios don't qualify.
"You are on a high level Necromancers private demiplane where only Necromancy functions and the whole pace is crawling with undead, you need to search the place to recover the Tome of Happy Fun Time so that Awesome Land can be happy again. The only problem is that said tome is constantly moving around the plane inside of an undead wolf running through the tunnels that riddle and crisscross the plane."

Encounters that require solutions that a wizard can't provide without access to a given school of magic (or schools) exist. And it's not one or two (or even a small handful) of such encounters that can or do exist. It is whole classes of encounters.

[Psyren]

Honestly, the only thing you're really missing out on is astral projection, because it protects you from danger in a way that other 9th's don't do as well.

You're not even missing out on that, just Planar Bind a Nightmare.

[eggynack]

That's certainly closer to what I'm looking for, but these scenarios are ridiculously specific. I could construct them for most tier one classes. Watch: "Mr. McClericington must stand at the alter of blinking, and cast the spell blink to get the artifact of blinking." See? Clerics aren't tier one. I could even toss a druid at that exact necromancy situation, and the druid would be incapable of solving it. Thus, druids are not tier one. I can construct nigh-infinite scenarios that a druid can't solve, by using various permutations of specific spells they can't cast with situations in which that spell is arbitrarily necessary. Also, the merchant situation can definitely be solved by some amount of illusion. Maybe you make an illusion of Bob sneaking into the other guy's store and stealing some stuff, in such a way that people see him doing it. Maybe you disguise yourself as Bob, steal the stuff yourself, and teleport away before people find out that you're not Bob.

[DR27]

While correct that they screw FS wizards, the whole private demiplane exclusive to a type of magic thing is really just a fancy way of a DM saying "no" to a player's power for no real reason. I'm not sure the idea of Tiers function anymore at that point where you are narrowly and arbitrarily limiting player power, and the discussion was about Tiers. Not "as DM I can arbitrarily decide that your character doesn't work, so you are T2." Either you are a generalist Wizard or a Cleric, or you are irrelevant in your "encounters." Everybody else might as well be T6 or less. So, there isn't really a Tier system at that point.

Except the merchant thing - that's totally doable with minions, and I'm sure there's a less convoluted way to get yourself appointed local wizard.

[JoshuaZ]

Specialization in the first place is vastly overrated. It is giving up two schools of magic for (at level 17+) 285,000 GP worth of items (that being the cost of a Pearl of Power of each level). Focused Specialist is giving up three schools for 570,000 GP of items.

And that is the level 17+ value, its worse GP wise at lower levels.

This isn't accurate, since using a pearl takes time up, and one is action limited. Already having the prepared spell ready is thus more valuable. Furthermore, the pearl has to be used for a spell you've already cast, reducing how much variation you can have ready. The pearl has the advantage that if you have multiple spells prepared and exhausted you can then choose which one to then apply it to, but overall that seems weaker. So the effective GP argument isn't exactly accurate.



The only time a specialist really benefits you is in a very low level game where you often don't have enough spell slots to actually make it through the day, but by level 5 or so you should be able to get through the day just fine with your native spell sl

This really depends on the situation in question. For example, an extended battle (siege of Azure City style) and this wont apply, and this isn't the only such situation. However, such situations are not that common, so this is a minor nitpick.



Let's see.

Create and Control Undead.

Make a merchant believe that he saw another merchant rob him the previous week.

Fight and win a duel against an enemy caster on a plane where all magic except Evocation is Limited.

Are any of these likely challenges? No. Are they possible challenges that I have thrown at parties and PC's at one point or another? Yes.

The evocation one would apply to any specialist who bans evocation, and the first one would apply to anyone who bans necromancy. This proves too much because this strongly suggests that not just a focused specialist isn't T1 but that a specialist themselves is not T1. For that matter, it also suggests that a druid or a cleric isn't T1, since many of these are things that they can't do easily either.

That said, I agree with you in part in that Focused Specialist really is highly restrictive. Keeping in mind that tiers are not natural categories, it may be that Focused Specialist doesn't really fit in T1 even as it still has much more flexibility than a T2 or T3.

I'm curious, for those arguing that FS is T1, how many more schools would need to be banned before one decided it wasn't T1?

[Psyren]

And I did solve all of his scenarios with the FS regardless.

[ArcturusV]

I dunno. More onto topic.

Unless we got some very high optimization scenarios like listed above... I find that Evocation's mileage scales almost directly with level. And I think that the Complete Mage reading was PROBABLY thinking of something like level 6-10ish. Before Shapechange, Planar Bindings, Wish, etc, come online. But high enough level that Evocation begins to start paying some bills.

Because at level 1-3? It's not. It's full of effects which are generally limited targeting, and don't do enough damage to actually put an enemy down that you'd reasonably encounter. The few "utility" evocations aren't really online yet or their durations are so short it's just not really worth it.

But you hit level 5? Yeah. Evocation starts to pay off. Not necessarily due to Fireball and Lightning Bolt. Although they're not nearly as bad as it's made out to be, and sometimes after all your BFC and such... you just need a spell to "Put in the boot" on some enemy. But things like Leomund's Tiny Hut (Which got a mention earlier), Wind Wall, or hell, even Daylight... simple Light and Darkness effects are oddly very useful. Least I always found them so. Add in stuff like the Hands of Doom, Wall of _____s... you're starting to get a pretty decent school to base a wizard around.

Plus... sometimes you just have to be that one who deals the last 20 damage to a target. It happens. You can say that your Barbarian/Fighter/Cleric/Druid/Rogue or whatever "Does the HP damage" and leave it to them. But sometimes? They just fail. And you wish you had that last "Chuck a fireball at 'em" to prevent a TPK.

[eggynack]

I'm curious, for those arguing that FS is T1, how many more schools would need to be banned before one decided it wasn't T1?
Lesse. You need conjuration and transmutation, and I figure that the block on divination still exists, so that means that banning six schools would definitely put you below one in my opinion. I've already asserted that evocation, enchantment, and necromancy are non-vital, even if they might have their moments, so the number must be either four or five. Abjuration might be necessary, though it isn't always if you have a cleric in the party to cast your dispels, so the question is whether illusion is necessary or not. I don't think that losing illusion means losing a tier, particularly because neither clerics nor druids get access to it, so offhand I think that you need to ban five schools to drop a tier. I'm not completely sure though, especially because illusion gets you such a wide range of important effects.

[Raven777]

Shadow Dragon Breath deals negative levels instead of damage, right? So it's a "nondamaging effect." And a Shadow Resilient Sphere is nondamaging too.

You casting spells through your sphere would be "proof that it isn't real" and thus they would disbelieve it with no save, making you vulnerable.

The contentious bit is this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/illusion), I assume? "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw."

Are you telling me that a big stupid fighter or monster with no clue about neither arcana nor spellcraft is going to realize what's happening to him while my spells go through my bubble but his sword doesn't? Because it has yet to happen to me. I suppose this might vary from DM to DM, though.

[JoshuaZ]

Any wizards guild worth the name has its wizards duels on custom demiplanes set up to prevent cheating. Want to have an Evoker duel then it takes place on the arena plane that prevents all magic from other schools (possibly excepting Dispel Magic/ Greater Dispel Magic)?

Any guild? Really? Many settings are sufficiently low level that this is simply not true. This applies to both what many people play in as well as many official settings (e.g. Eberron). The Tier system remember is about what is likely in practical play more than anything else.



Because you need to become a member of the Necromancers Guild to gain access to information that is stored on a demiplane that Limits all magic except for Enchantment and Necromancy and is covered in permanent Mage's Private Sanctum spells. Said information is stored in the Chair of Necromancers Knowledge which is a piece of Wondrous Architecture/auto reset trap that only triggers when an individual sits in it, creates an undead creature, and then controls an undead creature. Upon success it uses Mind Rape to dump the required knowledge straight into your mind and upon exiting the chair it again uses Mind Rape except that this time it removes the knowledge.

So this, like many Tippy ideas is an absolutely great idea by itself. You have a degree of system mastery and evil creativity that few people can rival. But, most campaigns aren't like this. (Also minor nitpick in that I'm not sure you can use Mind Rape to dump info in like that, and I'd be worried about them making the save on the second use, and who ever voluntarily fails a save against Mind Rape or would willing sit in a chair that is going to do that to them?)




Because you want the first merchant to bring charges against the second merchant so that you can get merchant 2 into your debt by proving that merchant 1 is lying only to later prove that merchant 1 was the victim of Local Wizard Bob so that you can get state sanction to remove Bob, steal his stuff, and get yourself set up as the Local Wizard.

So this is actually a really good example of where you can almost certainly use your spells to find other ways of getting your goal with your spells, very likely in ways that don't involve merchant 1 or merchant 2. And if this is a situation half as high level world as your other situations, the relevant authorities along with Local Wizard are going to have a lot of divination spells to help determine what actually happened.



"You are on a high level Necromancers private demiplane where only Necromancy functions and the whole pace is crawling with undead, you need to search the place to recover the Tome of Happy Fun Time so that Awesome Land can be happy again. The only problem is that said tome is constantly moving around the plane inside of an undead wolf running through the tunnels that riddle and crisscross the plane."

Really? This seems more divination focused than anything else. Finding the wolf is the hard part.

[Emperor Tippy]

This isn't accurate, since using a pearl takes time up, and one is action limited. Already having the prepared spell ready is thus more valuable. Furthermore, the pearl has to be used for a spell you've already cast, reducing how much variation you can have ready. The pearl has the advantage that if you have multiple spells prepared and exhausted you can then choose which one to then apply it to, but overall that seems weaker. So the effective GP argument isn't exactly accurate.
It's reasonably close as the big draw of specialization is more spell slots per day.


This really depends on the situation in question. For example, an extended battle (siege of Azure City style) and this wont apply, and this isn't the only such situation. However, such situations are not that common, so this is a minor nitpick.

In such a situation you are better off spending your slots on Persistent buffs and/or minion creation than you are directly engaging enemies with spells.


The evocation one would apply to any specialist who bans evocation, and the first one would apply to anyone who bans necromancy.
Well yes, it is one of the reasons that I dislike specialization so much. But you can generally work around it. Take the Necromancy, you capture someone who can do what you want and then use Dominate or Mind Rape to make them do what you want and get you the information that you want. But Necromancy and Enchantment are both barred? Then you are pretty much screwed. Simulacrum or Ice Assassin of a caster who can do what you want is your only option if you have those two schools banned, and even then that assumes that the Sense Motive and Disguise checks aren't beaten.


This proves too much because this strongly suggests that not just a focused specialist isn't T1 but that a specialist themselves is not T1. For that matter, it also suggests that a druid or a cleric isn't T1, since many of these are things that they can't do easily either.
There are a small number of things that any given Tier 1 class pretty much can't do outright, but it is a bare handful of edge cases and even then most of them can be achieved with one method or another.

A wizard has such a list, a specialist adds some other things to that list, a focused specialist adds even more. When do you reach the point where the list is long enough for the class to no longer be tier 1?

Seeing as I rate a Specialist Wizard as about the bottom of Tier 1 (as it is generally as limited as a Druid or Cleric), an FS being around the top of Tier 2 fits quite well.

[Story]

Plus... sometimes you just have to be that one who deals the last 20 damage to a target. It happens. You can say that your Barbarian/Fighter/Cleric/Druid/Rogue or whatever "Does the HP damage" and leave it to them. But sometimes? They just fail. And you wish you had that last "Chuck a fireball at 'em" to prevent a TPK.

And that's why I keep a Lesser Orb of Fire prepared.

[Psyren]

The contentious bit is this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/illusion), I assume? "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw."

Are you telling me that a big stupid fighter or monster with no clue about neither arcana nor spellcraft is going to realize what's happening to him while my spells go through my bubble but his sword doesn't? Because it has yet to happen to me. I suppose this might vary from DM to DM, though.

As you point out, this is DM-dependent. But even if the enemies are dumb as rocks they still get the will save, and success means you get nothing - not 80%, not 20%, nothing - because your Sphere is not an attack.

But even the dumb ogre will trust his shaman (who has ranks in spellcraft) if he tells him to ignore your bubble because its fake. Similarly, which monsters are you talking about? You might fool a dire tiger (then again, you might not - animals are tricky like that) but you're not going to fool a dragon or vampire. And then there are monsters with special senses, like oozes, who can tell there's nothing there because blindsight.

[Deophaun]

Any wizards guild worth the name has its wizards duels on custom demiplanes set up to prevent cheating. Want to have an Evoker duel then it takes place on the arena plane that prevents all magic from other schools (possibly excepting Dispel Magic/ Greater Dispel Magic)?
An evoker duel would, by definition, only involve evokers. Thus, someone who has banned it would never have to worry about such things. Problem solved before it exists.

Because you need to become a member of the Necromancers Guild to gain access to information that is stored on a demiplane that Limits all magic except for Enchantment and Necromancy and is covered in permanent Mage's Private Sanctum spells.
Why do I need to become a member of this guild? Planar bind what I need to raid the place and be done with it.

Also, this is knowledge possessed by a guild. Hardly secret to the cosmos. Ask an appropriate deity and don't bother with the plane at all.

Said information is stored in the Chair of Necromancers Knowledge which is a piece of Wondrous Architecture/auto reset trap that only triggers when an individual sits in it, creates an undead creature, and then controls an undead creature.
Summon undead I. You can also dark chaos shuffle to get Fell Animate.

Because you want the first merchant to bring charges against the second merchant so that you can get merchant 2 into your debt by proving that merchant 1 is lying only to later prove that merchant 1 was the victim of Local Wizard Bob so that you can get state sanction to remove Bob, steal his stuff, and get yourself set up as the Local Wizard.
Voice of the dragon.

But even the dumb ogre will trust his shaman (who has ranks in spellcraft) if he tells him to ignore your bubble because its fake.
But he'd only get a +4 to his saving throw, as he doesn't have proof, just the word of his shaman.

[Psyren]

But he'd only get a +4 to his saving throw, as he doesn't have proof, just the word of his shaman.

He has more than the word of his shaman, he also sees Raven casting spells from inside the bubble. Again, this comes down to how the DM defines "proof." (And honestly, if he is that clueless about magic, the word of his shaman should constitute "proof.")

[Deophaun]

He has more than the word of his shaman, he also sees Raven casting spells from inside the bubble. Again, this comes down to how the DM defines "proof." (And honestly, if he is that clueless about magic, the word of his shaman should constitute "proof.")
If he doesn't have spellcraft, he doesn't know how the spell works, so there's no proof in the Raven casting spells through it. It's not an illusion of a physical shield that a sword passes through, it's an illusion of a magical effect. Without knowing how that effect is supposed to work, he can't deduce anything from its interaction with others.

As for the Shaman, it's a rule specifically called out in the PHB: if you tell others that it's an illusion, it's not proof, it's just a +4 to their saving throw.

[Psyren]

If he doesn't have spellcraft, he doesn't know how the spell works, so there's no proof in the Raven casting spells through it.

But he has reason to distrust it since his own sword won't go through but the enemy spells will.



As for the Shaman, it's a rule specifically called out in the PHB: if you tell others that it's an illusion, it's not proof, it's just a +4 to their saving throw.

I know that rule, but that same passage also says that if you are faced with proof, you don't need a saving throw at all. Where does it say that verbal proof cannot be proof?

[eggynack]

I know that rule, but that same passage also says that if you are faced with proof, you don't need a saving throw at all. Where does it say that verbal proof cannot be proof?
I don't know if verbal proof can be proof or not, but, "Hey, Slappy the Ogre. That wall is an illusion," doesn't constitute proof. If it were, then our understanding of logic would look a hell of a lot different than it does now.

[Brookshw]

Evocation has a number of good and unique effects, what it sucks at is blasting and direct damage.
.

Implosion being one of the few save vs. die that deathward doesn't stop helps the school, but then again people rarely seem to consider cleric options. Then again I didn't finish reading the thread :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

I don't know if verbal proof can be proof or not, but, "Hey, Slappy the Ogre. That wall is an illusion," doesn't constitute proof. If it were, then our understanding of logic would look a hell of a lot different than it does now.

Except we use word as proof all the time. It's called "expert witness testimony," and they are admissible in court for that very reason.

To Slappy the Ogre, if you're an authority, your word is proof.

[eggynack]

Except we use word as proof all the time. It's called "expert witness testimony," and they are admissible in court for that very reason.

To Slappy the Ogre, if you're an authority, your word is proof.
Yes, but in this case, what Punchy the shaman is saying directly conflicts with Slappy's view of reality. Punchy is saying, "Hey, there's no wall there," and reality is saying, "Hey, there's obviously a wall there," and that's enough proof for a +4 to the save, but not enough proof to serve Slappy a dish of perfect knowledge.

[Emperor Tippy]

An evoker duel would, by definition, only involve evokers. Thus, someone who has banned it would never have to worry about such things. Problem solved before it exists.
So it's an encounter and challenge that you can't accomplish and yet a regular wizard can.


Why do I need to become a member of this guild? Planar bind what I need to raid the place and be done with it.
So your solution is to declare war on an entire guild of wizards to get a bit of information? And this really seems like a decent solution to the situation?

And your method to carry out this war is to spend lots of 8th level spell slots on Greater Planar Binding, succeeding on all of the checks to gain services, and in the process likely make enemies of decently powerful extra-planar entities?


Also, this is knowledge possessed by a guild. Hardly secret to the cosmos. Ask an appropriate deity and don't bother with the plane at all.
Contact Other Planes only gets you yes or no answers. And you want to use this to extract highly detailed and complex information. The only way to do this is to play 20 questions and spell out the information (which could be hundreds of pages) letter by letter (and god help you if pictures are involved). You can do it but not in 24 hours.


Summon undead I. You can also dark chaos shuffle to get Fell Animate.
Summon Undead doesn't create or control Undead. It is also blocked on the plane and thus can't be cast. Fell Animate only works with a direct damage Enchantment spell, which pretty much means Power Word Pain. It doesn't, however, allow you to take control of an already existing undead creature.


Voice of the dragon.
Is skill point bonuses and one use of Suggestion. Suggestion isn't capable of implanting memories or exerting the kind of long duration control necessary to carry off the con, and even in the best case scenario you are looking at tons of uses to layer on enough Suggestions to actually cover the problems.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes, but in this case, what Punchy the shaman is saying directly conflicts with Slappy's view of reality. Punchy is saying, "Hey, there's no wall there," and reality is saying, "Hey, there's obviously a wall there," and that's enough proof for a +4 to the save, but not enough proof to serve Slappy a dish of perfect knowledge.

"Close your eyes and walk foreward."
"Now stop and open your eyes. Are you standing inside a wall? No? See, illusion."

[eggynack]

"Close your eyes and walk foreward."
"Now stop and open your eyes. Are you standing inside a wall? No? See, illusion."
Sure. That probably qualifies as proof, if Slappy does that. Still, at that point we've moved beyond purely verbal proof, and into physical proof, and physical proof isn't the point of contention here. The question is whether Punchy's revelation, on its own, qualifies as evidence enough, given that Punchy has likely been fairly reliable on such matters, and has some degree of expertise. I'd say no, because this exact situation is covered in the game's rules, and because someone telling you something just doesn't constitute absolute proof without some other sort of evidence.

[Emperor Tippy]

Sure. That probably qualifies as proof, if Slappy does that. Still, at that point we've moved beyond purely verbal proof, and into physical proof, and physical proof isn't the point of contention here. The question is whether Punchy's revelation, on its own, qualifies as evidence enough, given that Punchy has likely been fairly reliable on such matters, and has some degree of expertise. I'd say no, because this exact situation is covered in the game's rules, and because someone telling you something just doesn't constitute absolute proof without some other sort of evidence.

As a DM, it would depend on the specific situation for me. Take a full on Roman Catholic zealot and then have the Pope declare that the wall isn't there? Well then that is auto making the save. Joe from accounting tells you that the wall isn't there? Well that is a second glance to make sure that Joe is just crazy and that something weird hasn't actually happened to the wall.

A group of PC's who have been together and trusted their lives to one another for years (or even decades) and the wizard tells the fighter that a wall isn't there? Well the fighter will charge straight at the wall firm in the belief that it either isn't there or isn't going to be there by the time he would run into it.

Just like if the Rogue says "someone invisible is in that square" the wizard isn't going to second guess him before annihilating the square from existence (even though he has True Seeing up).

But excluding the edge cases for real faith in the source (the kind that does constitute absolute proof to the individual in question), all you get is another save and the save bonus.

[Psyren]

Yes, but in this case, what Punchy the shaman is saying directly conflicts with Slappy's view of reality. Punchy is saying, "Hey, there's no wall there," and reality is saying, "Hey, there's obviously a wall there," and that's enough proof for a +4 to the save, but not enough proof to serve Slappy a dish of perfect knowledge.

But Slappy, even if he's dumb as rocks, knows how walls work - things can't go through walls. And spells are going through the wall. That plus expert testimony should clinch it.

Again, the DM gets to define proof, not you.


As a DM, it would depend on the specific situation for me. Take a full on Roman Catholic zealot and then have the Pope declare that the wall isn't there? Well then that is auto making the save. Joe from accounting tells you that the wall isn't there? Well that is a second glance to make sure that Joe is just crazy and that something weird hasn't actually happened to the wall.

Precisely.

[eggynack]

As a DM, it would depend on the specific situation for me. Take a full on Roman Catholic zealot and then have the Pope declare that the wall isn't there? Well then that is auto making the save. Joe from accounting tells you that the wall isn't there? Well that is a second glance to make sure that Joe is just crazy and that something weird hasn't actually happened to the wall.

A group of PC's who have been together and trusted their lives to one another for years (or even decades) and the wizard tells the fighter that a wall isn't there? Well the fighter will charge straight at the wall firm in the belief that it either isn't there or isn't going to be there by the time he would run into it.

Just like if the Rogue says "someone invisible is in that square" the wizard isn't going to second guess him before annihilating the square from existence (even though he has True Seeing up).

But excluding the edge cases for real faith in the source (the kind that does constitute absolute proof to the individual in question), all you get is another save and the save bonus.
I don't know if faith necessarily constitutes proof. The way I'd adjudicate that is that Slappy would still see the wall there, but he'd trust the pope or whatever and act in a manner that reflects that. Disbelieving the wall would allow Slappy to see through it, while just trusting in the lack of wall would only allow Slappy to attempt to walk through it. Similarly, he may avoid walking on an illusory floor on the pope's say so, but he'd still see a floor there.


But Slappy, even if he's dumb as rocks, knows how walls work - things can't go through walls. And spells are going through the wall. That plus expert testimony should clinch it.

Again, the DM gets to define proof, not you..
Sure. If Slappy sees something go through a wall, especially if someone also tells you that that the wall is an illusion, foom, wall probably negated. However, the expert testimony alone is not enough. He still can't see through the wall, even if he might decide to walk through it, and subsequently gain the ability to see through it. This expert testimony can give Slappy cause to seek proof, but it's not proof on its own.

[Deophaun]

So it's an encounter and challenge that you can't accomplish and yet a regular wizard can.
It's an encounter and a challenge that will not happen. Period. It's an evoker duel. You aren't an evoker. You don't qualify. Just like you won't qualify to have a fighter duel, or a druid duel, or a ranger duel.

I guess wizards are tier 6 now.

So your solution is to declare war on an entire guild of wizards to get a bit of information? And this really seems like a decent solution to the situation?
If you don't need to declare war on them, then you don't need to cast necromancy spells at all. Besides, if done correctly, the necromancers (and your conscripted army) will have no idea who is behind the attack.

But Tippy, I am frankly surprised that you assume every approach is done with a hammer, when summoning has so many subtler methods. Like succubi.

And your method to carry out this war is to spend lots of 8th level spell slots on Greater Planar Binding, succeeding on all of the checks to gain services, and in the process likely make enemies of decently powerful extra-planar entities?
Depends on the level. If we're talking greater, then we might also be talking ice assassin. Otherwise, we're talking just regular. And a Malconvoker gets a boost to the HD he can summon.
Besides, as stated above, done properly your minions don't need to know it's you who drafted them. Planar binding doesn't impart this knowledge to them. Mundane disguises with mind-blank and limiting contact can keep your anonymity.

Contact Other Planes only gets you yes or no answers. And you want to use this to extract highly detailed and complex information. The only way to do this is to play 20 questions and spell out the information (which could be hundreds of pages) letter by letter (and god help you if pictures are involved). You can do it but not in 24 hours.
Or, I could use that to get the name of an entity that does. Planar bind it (greater, perhaps), and be done.

Summon Undead doesn't create or control Undead.
Well, now that's actually quite interesting, as summoning does create an instance of what you summon, and gives you full control over it. Conditions are satisfied. But, if you didn't like that, I gave you Fell Animate

It is also blocked on the plane and thus can't be cast.
Interesting assumption that the artifact would stay on the plane after, you know, you've raided it.

Is skill point bonuses and one use of Suggestion. Suggestion isn't capable of implanting memories or exerting the kind of long duration control necessary to carry off the con, and even in the best case scenario you are looking at tons of uses to layer on enough Suggestions to actually cover the problems.
You're fixated on implanting memories when that is not in any way shape or form necessary for the scenario you laid out. Your plan was simply to get merchant 1 to accuse merchant 2 of some bad deed. The suggestion effect from voice of the dragon does that perfectly. And it lasts for hours/level. Extend it if you want and cast multiple times.

A group of PC's who have been together and trusted their lives to one another for years (or even decades) and the wizard tells the fighter that a wall isn't there? Well the fighter will charge straight at the wall firm in the belief that it either isn't there or isn't going to be there by the time he would run into it.
At which point, the proof is that he ran through the wall, not that the wizard told him the wall wasn't there. Do it with a shadow evard's black tentacles and he just gets a +4.

There is also the problem that shadows are quasi-real. It's not as simple as walking through a figment; it's going to physically resist you unless your mind actively disbelieves it. I can blind you, throw up a shadow wall of stone, and then have my dungeon crasher friend throw you into it and you don't sail through it simply because you can't see it.

[Psyren]

I don't know if faith necessarily constitutes proof.

For some people, it does. And that's the point, it depends on the person.

(And that's about as far as I'll go into that particular topic.)


However, the expert testimony alone is not enough.

For starters, I never said it was, because if you'll recall there are spells going through the "wall" the entire time. So there's something going on besides the testimony. But for two, whether the testimony is enough depends on the person, as above.

[eggynack]

For some people, it does. And that's the point, it depends on the person.

(And that's about as far as I'll go into that particular topic.)

Geez, I dunno. It's not really an interpretation of the rules I agree with, even if infinite faith is in the mix, but as you alluded to, it's an argument that leads to a bad place. I'm probably just going to leave the pope on his merry pope island, telling people about illusory walls.

[Emperor Tippy]

It's an encounter and a challenge that will not happen. Period. It's an evoker duel. You aren't an evoker. You don't qualify. Just like you won't qualify to have a fighter duel, or a druid duel, or a ranger duel.

I guess wizards are tier 6 now.
A wizard can fake being a fighter, or a druid, or a ranger on a days notice. Just like a regular wizard can fake being an evocation specialist, an enchanter, a diviner, or any other kind of wizard on a days notice. He can also do a Sorcerer (although that one tends to be a bit more difficult).

There are very few classes that a generalist wizard can't fake.


If you don't need to declare war on them, then you don't need to cast necromancy spells at all.
This sentence makes no sense. How do you go from needing to extract some information that is restricted to guild members only to needing to declare war on a guild of wizards?

When faced with a situation that a regular old wizard could solve with a few spells the next day, your FS's solution is to declare war on an entire guild of wizards. That is up there with nuking a city to kill one gang member. Sure it works but calling it a viable solution to the problem is just absurd.


Besides, if done correctly, the necromancers (and your conscripted army) will have no idea who is behind the attack.
You can't block Contact Other Planes, and that can give you a name without too much hassle.


But Tippy, I am frankly surprised that you assume every approach is done with a hammer, when summoning has so many subtler methods. Like succubi.
Succubi suck at extracting information from wizards. Even worse than that though, wizards often bind them as concubines and the like; they tend to thus be bad at seducing them.


Depends on the level. If we're talking greater, then we might also be talking ice assassin.
Greater is available at level 15, Ice Assassin requires level 17. Ice Assassin and Simulacrum can both work but both can be detected with Sense Motive and both have non trivial XP and GP costs (unless you are using Thought Bottles).


Otherwise, we're talking just regular. And a Malconvoker gets a boost to the HD he can summon.
You better be calling up a hell of a lot, more than you can actually call up in a day even as a Conjuration FS, if you want to force your way through the stronghold of a wizards guild.


Besides, as stated above, done properly your minions don't need to know it's you who drafted them. Planar binding doesn't impart this knowledge to them. Mundane disguises with mind-blank and limiting contact can keep your anonymity.
Contact Other Planes and Commune can both get them the information with no way for you to prevent it, assuming that anyone involved is either brassed off enough to invest the effort or sees sufficient profit in the information.

Or a simple "I wish for a Blessed Book that contains the entire history of the individual who was behind the attack on the Necromancer's Guild."

Or an "I wish for a Simulacrum of the individual who orchestrated the attack on the Necromancer's Guild." Perfectly legit wish and now the Necromancer's Guild has your entire brain to pick clean at their leisure.

Once someone knows to look for information in D&D, you have already failed to protect it because they can find and get the information that they desire.


Or, I could use that to get the name of an entity that does. Planar bind it (greater, perhaps), and be done.
You don't have enough spell slots to do it in a day, as a Wizard has to do it with Contact Other Planes (or Wish if they are high enough level and an individual exists that knows the information and isn't protected by Mind Blank).


Well, now that's actually quite interesting, as summoning does create an instance of what you summon, and gives you full control over it. Conditions are satisfied. But, if you didn't like that, I gave you Fell Animate
No, it's that you can't summon on a plane where Conjuration is Limited.


Interesting assumption that the artifact would stay on the plane after, you know, you've raided it.
Leaving aside that that supposes that the item in question can actually be moved intact, that still requires you to blast you way into the stronghold of a wizards guild.


You're fixated on implanting memories when that is not in any way shape or form necessary for the scenario you laid out. Your plan was simply to get merchant 1 to accuse merchant 2 of some bad deed. The suggestion effect from voice of the dragon does that perfectly. And it lasts for hours/level. Extend it if you want and cast multiple times.
No, the plan required that merchant 1 accuse merchant 2 of having committed a theft a week ago and with sufficient belief in this fact to carry a trial. All Suggestion can do, at best, is get the accusation. You need a separate suggestion for every bit of testimony and to answer each question put to him (which requires prediction of what those questions will be in advance), and you need the trial to take place within hours/level of the suggestions being layered on.

The actual bypass was just to Limited Wish Modify Memory.

[Chronos]

Seeing spells go through the wall isn't proof of anything. Maybe there's a spell out there that really does block swords but doesn't block spells. I don't know.

(and I'm not just speaking hypothetically about what the orc might think; I personally really don't know if there might not be a spell that does that, somewhere in all of the splatbooks).

And hearing a trusted ally tell you something is an illusion is no proof, either, no matter how trusted the ally. Because if you're accepting that there's such a thing as illusions (and by the premise, you are accepting of that), then how do you know that the voice you're hearing that sounds like your ally might not also be an illusion? Maybe the enemy is an illusionist and just mimicked your friend's voice, to try to trick you into walking off of a (very real) cliff.

[eggynack]

No, the plan required that merchant 1 accuse merchant 2 of having committed a theft a week ago and with sufficient belief in this fact to carry a trial. All Suggestion can do, at best, is get the accusation. You need a separate suggestion for every bit of testimony and to answer each question put to him (which requires prediction of what those questions will be in advance), and you need the trial to take place within hours/level of the suggestions being layered on.

The actual bypass was just to Limited Wish Modify Memory.
Why do we specifically need merchant 1 to accuse merchant 2 of a theft a week ago? If all we're seeking is for merchant 2 to be out of the picture by way of a trial, getting merchant 1 to accuse merchant 2 of a theft last night seems good enough to me. Thus, illusions. There're a few different ways to make it look like merchant 2 is stealing merchant 1's stuff, and it doesn't necessarily require messing with the guy's mind.

[Emperor Tippy]

Why do we specifically need merchant 1 to accuse merchant 2 of a theft a week ago? If all we're seeking is for merchant 2 to be out of the picture by way of a trial, getting merchant 1 to accuse merchant 2 of a theft last night seems good enough to me. Thus, illusions. There're a few different ways to make it look like merchant 2 is stealing merchant 1's stuff, and it doesn't necessarily require messing with the guy's mind.

Perhaps because that is when Local Wizard Bob, merchant 1, and merchant 2 all lacked an alibi in the same time window and so the whole story can actually hold together.

[eggynack]

Perhaps because that is when Local Wizard Bob, merchant 1, and merchant 2 all lacked an alibi in the same time window and so the whole story can actually hold together.
These problems just seem really far from unsolvable to me. There are ways to time these things out, and you could even divination to figure out if the merchant has an alibi on that given day. I'm not really sure why you'd need anyone but the desired thief to have an alibi. Finally, I'm not sure what exact enchantment you're using here. You could be using mindrape, but that's a 9th level spell, and is thus not relevant to tier discussions in any meaningful way. Outside of that one, most enchantments are non-instantaneous, and can thus be turned off or detected. Illusions let you do this at a much lower level.

[Lord Haart]

Because you need to become a member of the Necromancers Guild to gain access to information that is stored on a demiplane that Limits all magic except for Enchantment and Necromancy and is covered in permanent Mage's Private Sanctum spells. Said information is stored in the Chair of Necromancers Knowledge which is a piece of Wondrous Architecture/auto reset trap that only triggers when an individual sits in it, creates an undead creature, and then controls an undead creature. Upon success it uses Mind Rape to dump the required knowledge straight into your mind and upon exiting the chair it again uses Mind Rape except that this time it removes the knowledge.And if you're pulling out incredibly specific situations, i shall point that there seems to be no protection from guy-sitting-in-the-chair just telling the required information to someone else (writing it down, etc.).

Otherwise, i'm no expert at theoretical optimisation at all, but i do believe that there are ways around "Enchantment and necromancy (why not only necromancy, if it's a Necromancers guild?) only" planar trait (Planar Bubble? Using Wish/cheese/polymorph cheese before entering the plane to get psionics you need, which aren't limited by limitations on magic?) and then Conjuration and Transmutation, abused enough, take care of everything because that's what they do when abused.


Contact Other Planes only gets you yes or no answers. And you want to use this to extract highly detailed and complex information. The only way to do this is to play 20 questions and spell out the information (which could be hundreds of pages) letter by letter (and god help you if pictures are involved). You can do it but not in 24 hours.
If time does matter, then it'll take exactly twelve second, i wager.

[Gemini476]

Alight, this seems like a fun theoretical problem to solve. I am by no means good at this, but let's see what I can do.

Although as for the case of the Shadow Walls: There are two conflicting "proofs". If he were to attempt to walk through it, he would get definite proof that it is real and solid. If his knowledgeably friend says it isn't, that's an expert's opinion that conflicts with the apparent reality.
If, for example, the wizard were to give the barbarian his word that 0.999... in all infinity is actually exactly equal to 1, the barbarian would not be likely to believe it. He has "proof" that they are different numbers, after all: one minus nine bar would lead to an infinite number of zeroes followed by a singly one.
The barbarian is wrong in this case, but he is not likely to believe he is in error unless he sees some proper proof for it. (I know I didn't.)
Likewise, he here has a wall he cannot go through, a friend that says that he can (despite proof to the contrary), and a wizard casting spells through the Wall. The spellcasting is not definite proof by itself: Is the Barbarian sure that spells can never be cast through magical walls? Is he sure that the wizard is not actually invisible and casting a Deceptive Spell Fireball from this side of the Wall, with the Wall being a huge distraction?
No. No he isn't. (Also, flooding the room with Invisible Fog Cloud would stop the others from using True Seeing from seeing the Sneaky Invisible Wizard.)


Let's see.

Create and Control Undead.
You need the throne. If it is not in the Demiplane of Limited Magic and Wizard Fiat, you can just create an Ice Assassin of a low-level Dread Necromancer (Or hire one with money gathered from Fabricate!) and have him do the Ritual of Mental Violation. There's no way in Baator you're getting in a chair that requires you to fail your save against Mind Rape, man. That's just crazy talk. There is no guarantee that knowledge is the only thing it'll put in your head.

So either get the chair out of the plane or get your Portable Necromancer (TM) to the chair, possibly by smuggling him in with a Bag of Holding. Whatever you do, make sure to spend some GP on buying proper writing materials.


Make a merchant believe that he saw another merchant rob him the previous week.
Oh, this one is easy. Create an Ice Assassin of Bob. Teleport Through Time back a week. Have Ice Bob manipulate Nameless Merchant 2 to steal stuff from Nameless Merchant 1.

This way you just need to reveal the Ice Bob's scheme and lean back to watch the fireworks.

"Don't worry guys, I'll cast Contact Other Plane to clear this up. Is Bob the Wizard Guilty?" "Yes. (Technically.)"



Fight and win a duel against an enemy caster on a plane where all magic except Evocation is Limited.

Fun thing: Limited Magic doesn't seem to hinder items. Only spells and spell-like abilities.
You could Armor up and go hit him with a sword, I suppose. Could you do that thing with Elder Elemental shurikens? That would be fun.

What are his options? Go blasting for CLdX (usually CLd6) damage, Darkness, Contingency, Wall of Force, Force Cage?

Oh, and the (actual but extremely low-op) rules for Spell Duels in Complete Arcane might make it a lot easier.Especially if Dispel Magic is allowed for the Counterspelling step.

Is this a duel to the death? Does it use the rules for pulling spells as present in Complete Arcane? If it is to first blood, are there rules to the point of spellcasting being mandatory, rather than whacking 'em with your staff?
If Abjuration is allowed for Dispel Magic and suchlike, can I dispel a book of Explosive Runes?


Are any of these likely challenges? No. Are they possible challenges that I have thrown at parties and PC's at one point or another? Yes.
Here's another situation that the Tier 1s can't easily solve: You and your party have been transported, through one way or another, to 14th century England in the midst of the Hundred Year War.

The local Material Plane is entirely a Dead Magic Field, and the connections to dieties are much like in Athas. That is to say nonexistent. (Do note that this is more of an Eberron situation than a definitely-atheistic plane.)

Assuming that characters from Earth run on E6 rules (similar to how Athasian attributes are 5d4, and characters therefrom are always level 3 at least), how would you act?

[Emperor Tippy]

Here's another situation that the Tier 1s can't easily solve: You and your party have been transported, through one way or another, to 14th century England in the midst of the Hundred Year War.

The local Material Plane is entirely a Dead Magic Field, and the connections to dieties are much like in Athas. That is to say nonexistent. (Do note that this is more of an Eberron situation than a definitely-atheistic plane.)

Assuming that characters from Earth run on E6 rules (similar to how Athasian attributes are 5d4, and characters therefrom are always level 3 at least), how would you act?

Cut open my leg to remove the small bit of bone that is a 22+ HD Ice Assassin of an animated object that was created on my super happy fun time plane and has Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble as one of its chosen feats. As it is not stated to be an Su or SLA ability it is Ex and thus works in dead magic areas and then overrides the planes normal planar traits with those from Super Happy Fun Time Plane (ten billion to one time dilation, Enhanced Magic with all metamagic feats that are even remotely useful). Then I plane shift back home.

There are also the hundred Ice Assassin Solar's that have orders to Wish me to their location in specific situations and when actions aren't taken on schedule.

Yeah, that is how I would deal with that little problem.

[Gemini476]

Cut open my leg to remove the small bit of bone that is a 22+ HD Ice Assassin of an animated object that was created on my super happy fun time plane and has Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble as one of its chosen feats. As it is not stated to be an Su or SLA ability it is Ex and thus works in dead magic areas and then overrides the planes normal planar traits with those from Super Happy Fun Time Plane (ten billion to one time dilation, Enhanced Magic with all metamagic feats that are even remotely useful). Then I plane shift back home.

There are also the hundred Ice Assassin Solar's that have orders to Wish me to their location in specific situations and when actions aren't taken on schedule.

Yeah, that is how I would deal with that little problem.

Very well then. What if you were stuck in the plane before you are capable of casting Genesis/Ice Assassin/etc.?

At what point does this begin to inconvenience you?
I am aware that you can still cast instantaneous Conjurations, yes. As well as Invoke Magic when the time comes for that.

Oh, and I guess this scenario is probably one of the few that screw over Druids a bit. Didn't realize that when I first wrote it.

[Socratov]

So, ehm, noob question, but if a sorc would get the Shadow [X] lin eof spells he woudl effectively get access to all lover level spells, orcould he use only the spell she knows?

[Yuki Akuma]

So, ehm, noob question, but if a sorc would get the Shadow [X] lin eof spells he woudl effectively get access to all lover level spells, orcould he use only the spell she knows?

He'd be able to mimic any applicable spells on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, not just ones that he personally knows.

[Psyren]

To me, the point is not that "those circumstances are too specific, they keep other T1s from being T1s too." Rather, the point is that "FS Wizards can accomplish those tasks just fine, thus they are still T1." I have yet to see any arguments to the contrary.

Furthermore, Druids and Clerics can accomplish all of those challenges anyway, though Clerics do so more easily.

[Socratov]

He'd be able to mimic any applicable spells on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, not just ones that he personally knows.

would this spell not bump the sorc to T1 then? I mean, it is a spell that allows them to just about apply any solution toa given problem eliminating one of their weaknesses in being more restricted in what they know vs. a wizard

[Psyren]

would this spell not bump the sorc to T1 then? I mean, it is a spell that allows them to just about apply any solution toa given problem eliminating one of their weaknesses in being more restricted in what they know vs. a wizard

No, because the shadow line is too limited (no summons or calling for instance) and has too many weaknesses to be universally applicable. It's powerful but can't get you to T1.

[Yuki Akuma]

would this spell not bump the sorc to T1 then? I mean, it is a spell that allows them to just about apply any solution toa given problem eliminating one of their weaknesses in being more restricted in what they know vs. a wizard

The Shadow X line is good, don't get me wrong, but it's no "I can cast any spell on my list given a day to prepare". Shadow spells are generally something you want to focus your entire build around rather than trying to splash them to shore up weaknesses.


No, because the shadow line is too limited (no summons or calling for instance) and has too many weaknesses to be universally applicable. It's powerful but can't get you to T1.

Shadow Conjuration can do summoning, although you're right that it can't do calling.

[Psyren]

Shadow Conjuration can do summoning, although you're right that it can't do calling.

My bad, I was thinking teleportation for the former.

[Yuki Akuma]

My bad, I was thinking teleportation for the former.

That's true. A Wizard who banned Conjuration can sort of overcome that with Shadow Walk (for certain applications of teleportation magic anyway), but a Sorcerer is better off just learning (Greater) Teleport, Dimension Door, or whatever else.

[Psyren]

Shadow Walk is cool because you can take unwilling targets (i.e. kidnap people) and even strand them on the PoS if you're being truly sadistic. Even with the 50% chance to make it back, they will likely end up many yards if not miles away from their companions, effectively removing them from a fight.

[Yuki Akuma]

...Wow, that's true.

I have a whole new appreciation for Shadow Walk. And here I always just considered it Poor Man's Teleport.

[Der_DWSage]

Actually Psyren, I'd like to make my own toss at the 'Creating situations a Focused Specialist can't deal with.' I'm sure there's a few, but less likely than other ones. Keeping in mind that you've banned Enchantment, Necromancy, and Evocation...

1)Enchantment Challenge:Revisiting the 'You need to make someone believe something that's not true' line from Tippy. Without (Non-Conjured) assistance, you need to establish a bloodless coup of a kingdom that has several established magi that are renowned for their own paranoia. The reason it must be bloodless is that the death of the royal family or any of the high-ranking magi is because they have bonded their own lives to a loved one of yours. (I'm sure there's a spell for that, but I don't feel like digging through books.)
CLARIFICATION EDIT:'Without Assistance' includes the fact that you can't simply get your loved ones resurrected.

2)Necromancy Challenge:You require information (The location of a Mindblanked individual) that only a high-level Vampire knows. Contact Other Plane and Divination has given you no useful information, so you must find another way to get the information from an unfriendly undead who is unlikely to listen to Diplomacy.

3)Evocation Challenge:You must find a way to trap an individual at a particular spot for several hours. He has a permanent Freedom of Movement effect-Dispelling subdues it for rounds at a time, but you're attempting a long and complicated ritual that requires you not put him in an Antimagic field.
EDIT ADDENDUM:Wait, sorry. Goofed on this one when I realized a simple Wall of X could work. He is also capable of DC 80 Escape Artist Checks-capable of squeezing through holes big enough for you to see through, with some time. You need to maintain line of sight to complete the ritual.

...Slightly more believable than 'Nope, only these schools work here' challenges, and I'm curious what you come up with in return.

[Lord Haart]

Actually Psyren, I'd like to make my own toss at the 'Creating situations a Focused Specialist can't deal with.' I'm sure there's a few, but less likely than other ones. Keeping in mind that you've banned Enchantment, Necromancy, and Evocation...

1)Enchantment Challenge:Revisiting the 'You need to make someone believe something that's not true' line from Tippy. Without (Non-Conjured) assistance, you need to establish a bloodless coup of a kingdom that has several established magi that are renowned for their own paranoia. The reason it must be bloodless is that the death of the royal family or any of the high-ranking magi is because they have bonded their own lives to a loved one of yours. (I'm sure there's a spell for that, but I don't feel like digging through books.)

2)Necromancy Challenge:You require information (The location of a Mindblanked individual) that only a high-level Vampire knows. Contact Other Plane and Divination has given you no useful information, so you must find another way to get the information from an unfriendly undead who is unlikely to listen to Diplomacy.

3)Evocation Challenge:You must find a way to trap an individual at a particular spot for several hours. He has a permanent Freedom of Movement effect-Dispelling subdues it for rounds at a time, but you're attempting a long and complicated ritual that requires you not put him in an Antimagic field.
EDIT ADDENDUM:Wait, sorry. Goofed on this one when I realized a simple Wall of X could work. He is also capable of DC 80 Escape Artist Checks-capable of squeezing through holes big enough for you to see through, with some time. You need to maintain line of sight to complete the ritual.

...Slightly more believable than 'Nope, only these schools work here' challenges, and I'm curious what you come up with in return.

1. You make a non-bloodless coup and then raise your loved ones while getting rid of removed rulers' souls face the mages with proofs that you can destroy them at a whim (say, by destroying one of them at a whim in a way that will make his death known without revealing too much about the method) make use of the fact that if for some inconceivable reason the royal family isn't totally protected from Enchantment school, enchantment spells from summoned creatures work just as well make Ice Assassins of your loved ones and have no further need for original.

2. You make an Ice Assassin of the vampire.

3. Permanent Freedom of Movement doesn't quite let him escape from a demiplane you've created (better yet, planar bubble'd on someone standing next to him, so he's in a very, very slow timestream, and away from you, so you cast the ritual without being affected), does it?

[Der_DWSage]

I'm starting to wonder if Ice Assassin is the de facto answer to everything, despite the whole 'all-consuming need to kill the original' thing.

Your answer to #2 certainly works with the Ice Assassin, and #3 is...questionable, seeing as how you no longer have line of sight to him.

#1 only works if you're a heartless monster who doesn't care about the 'original' loved ones dying and being replaced with soulless automatons. The 'without assistance' was meant to include resurrections-I should have clarified.

Full points for #2, but I'd say only half points for #1 and #3. (These solutions work-just not for everybody, or with some GM fiat.)

[Lord Haart]

and #3 is...questionable, seeing as how you no longer have line of sight to him.

In case of planar bubble with slowed time, you do, and in case of full-blown demiplane i meant something in line of "he can't escape from the zone of ritual, because the world is a flat plane two squares across, with reality ending ten feet up and down the plane too, and you don't get any farther without planar travel". Doesn't stop him from repeatedly stabbing you while you cast the ritual, but that's a trivial matter to solve.

[Psyren]

1)Enchantment Challenge:Revisiting the 'You need to make someone believe something that's not true' line from Tippy. Without (Non-Conjured) assistance, you need to establish a bloodless coup of a kingdom that has several established magi that are renowned for their own paranoia. The reason it must be bloodless is that the death of the royal family or any of the high-ranking magi is because they have bonded their own lives to a loved one of yours. (I'm sure there's a spell for that, but I don't feel like digging through books.)
CLARIFICATION EDIT:'Without Assistance' includes the fact that you can't simply get your loved ones resurrected.

This one's easy - Disable all the magi involved without killing them. Temporal Stasis (Trans) or Imprisonment (Abjur) should do the trick, combined with Tainted Scholar if I really need to overpower their saves. They're still alive, and so therefore my loved one is alive too - stepping into the power vacuum should be simple after that. You can then research methods to break the link at your leisure if you want to finish them off, or simply leave them where they are for your loved one's natural lifespan (you are immortal, naturally) and finish them off once he/she dies.


2)Necromancy Challenge:You require information (The location of a Mindblanked individual) that only a high-level Vampire knows. Contact Other Plane and Divination has given you no useful information, so you must find another way to get the information from an unfriendly undead who is unlikely to listen to Diplomacy.

Well, "unlikely" simply means the DC is high - I'll call that Hostile, which means it's only 50 to get him to "Helpful." But that's the boring way out, so let's try something a little more creative.

One common tactic is to make him not be undead anymore - say, with PAO (Trans) - Probe Thoughts (Div) will take over from there. Another tactic is to destroy him, restore the corpse (PAO, or Wish - safe use) which gives you a lot of options. Bind something (Conj) that can Speak With Dead for you like a Lilitu and ask the corpse whatever you need to know, or simply take a bite out of the brain with Absorb Mind (Corr) from BoVD, or even both.

And if ALL that fails, nothing can be hidden from Legend Lore/Vision (Div) if you cast them enough. As a Vampire, he can't be less than ECL 11 by RAW (5 HD + 8 LA = 13, if he is less than 5 he's a vampire spawn instead) so both spells will always return useful information.



3)Evocation Challenge:You must find a way to trap an individual at a particular spot for several hours. He has a permanent Freedom of Movement effect-Dispelling subdues it for rounds at a time, but you're attempting a long and complicated ritual that requires you not put him in an Antimagic field.
EDIT ADDENDUM:Wait, sorry. Goofed on this one when I realized a simple Wall of X could work. He is also capable of DC 80 Escape Artist Checks-capable of squeezing through holes big enough for you to see through, with some time. You need to maintain line of sight to complete the ritual.

Flesh to X (Trans) arguably circumvents Freedom of Movement, but "arguably" isn't good enough for me. All you need is a material you can see him through that isn't a hole; nonmagical ice will work, and defeat his FoM too. Put Endure Elements (Abj)/Water Breathing (Trans) on him (or rings of same) so that he stays alive, immerse him in a vat of water, Flash Freeze (Trans) it, and Disintegrate (Trans) the surrounding container. Now you have a clear block of ice that you can see him through (line of sight) and his Freedom of Movement doesn't help because "magic" isn't impeding his movement. There are no holes in solid ice for his 80 EA to work either. Complete the ritual at your leisure.

[Der_DWSage]

Aaah. Apologies-I'd misunderstood your intent with the planar bubble. Alright, so full points on #3.

Still a lot more effort than a few Resilient Spheres or Forcecages, either way.

EDIT:And then Psyren ninjas in with his interesting, well-thought-out solutions. Well done, I'd say. I'll have to keep some of those thoughts in mind. I don't believe you even stepped too far out of core to do any of that.

[Psyren]

Thank you. So again, the point of all this is that I believe FS Wizards are still T1.

I do agree with Tippy that Generalists are more powerful at very high levels, when you can easily afford pearls and you have more general slots than you know what to do with. But the bigger problem in most games is getting that high. Specialists and Focused Specialists have the ammunition to survive (and contribute to) lower levels more easily.

[Gemini476]

Actually Psyren, I'd like to make my own toss at the 'Creating situations a Focused Specialist can't deal with.' I'm sure there's a few, but less likely than other ones. Keeping in mind that you've banned Enchantment, Necromancy, and Evocation...

1)Enchantment Challenge:Revisiting the 'You need to make someone believe something that's not true' line from Tippy. Without (Non-Conjured) assistance, you need to establish a bloodless coup of a kingdom that has several established magi that are renowned for their own paranoia. The reason it must be bloodless is that the death of the royal family or any of the high-ranking magi is because they have bonded their own lives to a loved one of yours. (I'm sure there's a spell for that, but I don't feel like digging through books.)
CLARIFICATION EDIT:'Without Assistance' includes the fact that you can't simply get your loved ones resurrected.

2)Necromancy Challenge:You require information (The location of a Mindblanked individual) that only a high-level Vampire knows. Contact Other Plane and Divination has given you no useful information, so you must find another way to get the information from an unfriendly undead who is unlikely to listen to Diplomacy.

3)Evocation Challenge:You must find a way to trap an individual at a particular spot for several hours. He has a permanent Freedom of Movement effect-Dispelling subdues it for rounds at a time, but you're attempting a long and complicated ritual that requires you not put him in an Antimagic field.
EDIT ADDENDUM:Wait, sorry. Goofed on this one when I realized a simple Wall of X could work. He is also capable of DC 80 Escape Artist Checks-capable of squeezing through holes big enough for you to see through, with some time. You need to maintain line of sight to complete the ritual.

...Slightly more believable than 'Nope, only these schools work here' challenges, and I'm curious what you come up with in return.

1. Before all else, secure your loved one. Putting them in a Dead Magic Zone should work, if the bond stops upon activation. If the bond persists upon the target after death... Well then, that complicates things. Disjunction is extremely handy in any case.

Once you have secured the hostage, proceed with standard plans for world domination. You can Imprison the royal family if you want, since not all Save or Dies are Save or Dies.(Also, Enchantment can't handle this challenge. High-level, paranoid Magi? What's the odds on them not having Mind Blank at all times, as well as stupid Will saves?)

2. Isch, that's a hard one. You could always go for the standard methods, those being bribery of various sorts. Test his greed for gold, his greed for magical knowledge (Spell trade!), or his lust for whoever, be it live or dead (Ice Assassin wins, yet again). Should all those fail, check if he would tell you in return for a (heavily restricted) favor: something like "Nothing That A Paladin Would Fall For", except in thirty pages of legalese.
I hear vampires have trouble with adventurers, right? Then you'll want Invisible Iron (TM)! Completely non-magical, utterly confounding, this miracle material makes magicians mad! Make a floor of Invisible Iron (TM) over a hallway of pit traps - and then leave holes in the floor! Rolling boulder trap? How about an invisible rolling boulder trap? Worried about the Wizard having line of effect to your throne room? Don't! Hope he'll have a fun time blasting through an inch of INVISIBLE IRON (TM)!
Or, you know, you could scry on a couple guys for him, maybe kill some rivaling vamps, use some Zodar Wishes for some hard-to-get magical items...
Everyone has a vice, it's just a matter of finding out what.

Because seriously, what kind of proper high-level vampire just attacks a high-level Wizard without first finding out what on Oerth he wants? You need to gloat a bit at the mortals first, drink some "wine" while smugly insulting the nature of mankind... Also, making a neutral wizard hostile is somewhat deadly.

3. (Question! If he can make the DC 80 check to squeeze up dark places, can he make the DC 120 check to waltz through a Wall of Force?)
Ah yes, this one is trickier. Of course, Line of Sight and Line of Effect are two different things - Wall of Force breaks LoE but not LoS since it's transparent, you see. Almost invisible. You may see where I'm going here. Invisible Spell is a great metamagic feat, isn't it? My favorite is Invisible Wall of Iron (+Fabricate for funsies), but in this case you might as well go for Invisible Wall of Stone. Or Shape Stone, perhaps. I'm not sure if that would work.
Oh hey, can we Baleful Polymorph him and then stick him in an aquarium? Or use Flesh to Stone?

[ArcturusV]

Thank you. So again, the point of all this is that I believe FS Wizards are still T1.

I do agree with Tippy that Generalists are more powerful at very high levels, when you can easily afford pearls and you have more general slots than you know what to do with. But the bigger problem in most games is getting that high. Specialists and Focused Specialists have the ammunition to survive (and contribute to) lower levels more easily.

Generally my theory. If I'm... level 5+? I want to be a generalist. There's really no reason not to that I can see worth it at that level. Not having to sink resources into trying to 'cheat' my banning when I need to. Can make sure I have the right tool for the right job all the time. Because sometimes you just need that Wall of Force, or want that Symbol of Insanity, etc.

Less than 5? Yeah, I see it paying off in extra spell slots. The ACF fiddly bits for Specialists I've never been crazy about. Maybe I'm missing something for it. Even Abrupt Jaunt, which seems to be the thing that makes people fangasm all over being a Specialist at low level... Okay, you can immediate action Teleport 10 feet. That's not immunity to low level enemies unless I'm really missing something key (Though I see it referenced as "I AM IMMUNE TO ENEMIES!" all the time). Particularly when you have spells with ranges measured more like 30-50 feet and thus are still well within "Even if I teleport 10 feet he'll charge my ass and smack me down" range, or use a sling, javelin, or crossbow, or any other of a dozen things that low level encounters tend to have going when you're fighting Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, etc.

[Psyren]

Immediate actions can be taken at any time though, even then. Enemy charges you, you move. Pit trap opens under you, you move. Enemy tries to trip or grapple, you move. It's a lifesaver. You're not immune to enemies, but you can really make them waste their actions - which is basically as good as a no-save-just-lose.

Pathfinder has some nice benefits for specialists as well, plus they can cast from barred schools anyway.

[Gemini476]

Generally my theory. If I'm... level 5+? I want to be a generalist. There's really no reason not to that I can see worth it at that level. Not having to sink resources into trying to 'cheat' my banning when I need to. Can make sure I have the right tool for the right job all the time. Because sometimes you just need that Wall of Force, or want that Symbol of Insanity, etc.

Less than 5? Yeah, I see it paying off in extra spell slots. The ACF fiddly bits for Specialists I've never been crazy about. Maybe I'm missing something for it. Even Abrupt Jaunt, which seems to be the thing that makes people fangasm all over being a Specialist at low level... Okay, you can immediate action Teleport 10 feet. That's not immunity to low level enemies unless I'm really missing something key (Though I see it referenced as "I AM IMMUNE TO ENEMIES!" all the time). Particularly when you have spells with ranges measured more like 30-50 feet and thus are still well within "Even if I teleport 10 feet he'll charge my ass and smack me down" range, or use a sling, javelin, or crossbow, or any other of a dozen things that low level encounters tend to have going when you're fighting Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, etc.

If he charges you, you immediate action teleport after he has moved but before he splatters you over the dungeon wall.

Also, if they are using a ranged weapon I'm not entirely sure you can dodge it like that. I'd need to check what actions throwing something breaks up into and when you can activate an Immediate Action in between there.

Also, the guys with the melee attacks are the really dangerous ones. Those are up to 2d6+1.5*STR rather than just 1d10 for a crossbow. Also also, almost everyone dies in one hit at first level. You should have 6HP(14 Con), so with an average damage of 5.5 you're not necessarily down for the count. The average 9 damage of the MM Orc's Falchion, however? You don't want that anywhere near your squishy robes.

[ArcturusV]

See, I didn't think it worked that way. Because a charge is one action. Move and Attack as one. So you can't just teleport away. Either he hit you, then you teleport. Or you teleport before and he just moves an extra 10' during the charge movement. :smallconfused: If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Just thought since Charge is a single action that's how it worked.

[Aracor]

I think Arcturus is right. There's nothing by default that allows an immediate action to interrupt, it simply allows you to act while it's not your turn. I don't see anything that suggests you can use an immediate action after someone moves and before they hit you with a charge attack. Heck, I don't even see any evidence that you can abrupt jaunt behind a wall after someone starts casting a spell and before you're hit with it.

[Gemini476]

See, I didn't think it worked that way. Because a charge is one action. Move and Attack as one. So you can't just teleport away. Either he hit you, then you teleport. Or you teleport before and he just moves an extra 10' during the charge movement. :smallconfused: If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Just thought since Charge is a single action that's how it worked.

Charging consists of two actions: moving twice your speed, and attacking. If you have Pounce, it consists of even more actions: each attack is its own little action, sometimes referred to as an "attack action", maybe, because the rules are unclear on that. There are Attack Actions, and they're probably each individual attack in a Full Attack and the like, but we don't know for sure.

Or at least that's how I think it works, since you can clearly interrupt a Charge with a Ready(Set) action and a spear.

[Der_DWSage]

By the SRD...


Immediate Action

An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn.

It doesn't specify that it can't be used in-between their decision to charge and them reaching your face. In fact, the implication is quite the opposite. Otherwise, many immediate actions would be completely useless.

[Lord Haart]

Oh no, it's that discussion again.



There's nothing by default that allows an immediate action to interrupt, it simply allows you to…Act outside of your turn in response to some event, possibly preventing that very event or changing/overriding its outcome.


Also, if they are using a ranged weapon I'm not entirely sure you can dodge it like that. I'd need to check what actions throwing something breaks up into and when you can activate an Immediate Action in between there.There is no "in between". You activate the Immediate Action after the guy throws something, and it is resolved before the throw is resolved.


Charging consists of two actions: moving twice your speed, and attacking.Nope, it consists of one full-round action.

If Aerith charges Bob and Bob pops Abrupt Jaunt in response to being attacked (as part of the charge), then the order of operation is "Aerith moves to Bob, Aerith begins attacking (full attacking with Pounce) Bob, but before the attacks are resolved, Bob turns out to be in a different square; Aerith still can attack him, but only if he's within her reach and/or she is using a thrown/ranged weapon or the attack would be legal in any other way i didn't think of". Note that, as far as i understand, the presence of other enemies in her reach doesn't allow her to "switch" her first attack to them, since charge action requires her to specify a target (it's necessary for calculations of whether the charge is legal), but with Pounce she can re-pick her targets for every attack after first, since full attack routine explicitly permits so.

If Aerith charges Bob and Bob pops Abrupt Jaunt in response to her leaving her square, then it goes the same, except she can only move if the move will be legal by charge rules in regards to his current position.

If Aerith charges Bob and Bob pops Abrupt Jaunt in response to her leaving more than three squares on her turn, then she moves three squares and realises she can only finish the movement if the whole movement (including those two squares, for the purposes of e. g. the straight line condition) is legal in regards to his current position.

If Aerith shoots Bob and Bob pops Abrupt Jaunt, then Aerith, well, shoots Bob; if he just teleported ten feet to the left, then he gets holey just fine, and if he got behind a total cover, then attack is made and fails due to being illegal. Same goes for spells.

There is no in-between. There is "A sharp pain tells you you've been shot in lung; in response, you put a notebook in your pocket, the notebook stops the bullet, your lung isn't shot". Immediate actions and ready actions are resolved before their trigger is (except when they are not, see specific rules). I kinda guess what part of this routine can be kinda hard to wrap a head around, but seriously, Roguespace is far greater offender.

[Aracor]

…Act outside of your turn in response to some event, possibly preventing that very event or changing/overriding its outcome.

Cite, please.


Swift Action
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.

Immediate Action
An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn.
I don't see any indication that you can use this to interrupt or in response to any event. Where are you getting this from? It says you can use it out of turn, not that you can use it as a response.

There are some immediate actions that can be used as a response, but that needs to be specified by the specific immediate actions as it's relevant.

[Deophaun]

See, I didn't think it worked that way. Because a charge is one action. Move and Attack as one. So you can't just teleport away. Either he hit you, then you teleport. Or you teleport before and he just moves an extra 10' during the charge movement. :smallconfused: If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Just thought since Charge is a single action that's how it worked.
You are both right and wrong on the outcome (but wrong on the reasoning), because the rules for charging interact strangely with targets that move after/in the middle of the movement portion of the charge.

The requirements for movement during a charge is: a) you must move directly toward your target b) you must move to the closest space from which you can hit the target and c) the path from your originating square to your end square must be clear. That's it. Note that there is no requirement that you move in a straight line. Part (a) is supposed to cover that, but if the target moves in the middle of your charge, (a) does not prevent you from continuing to the target's new position to a new "closest space."

The only thing at this point that can spoil your charge is if the target is beyond your movement, there is something preventing from moving directly to your target (like a wall), or, strangely, if there is some obstacle between where you started and where your opponent wound up, even if you are not going to run into that obstacle on your actual route. You can, in fact, charge over difficult terrain and friendly creatures in this way, as long as the difficult terrain and creatures are not between your originating square and the target's new square.

[DR27]

Spells like Stay the Hand (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/stay-the-hand--2956/) and Halt (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/halt--3017/), (same with Close Wounds (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/close-wounds--3542/)) or maneuvers like Wall of Blades (http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/wall-blades--3661/) (Wings of Cover too!) all have clearly defined situations under which they are able to be activated. Immediate Magic is instead just "Immediate Action" - which is simply "anytime." It needed a clear definition. The description at least says that it can't be in response to an attack you are unaware of, implying that you can use it in response to an attack you are aware of - so ruin people's charges. You might have to rationalize it as a situation where your enemy vanishes just as you start swinging your weapon down upon them.

[Aracor]

Exactly! But there's nothing in abrupt jaunt that says how it works for an attack. So you can use it in response to an attack, which can arguably mean that you can only activate it AFTER the attack resolves, because this particular ability doesn't say how to works in response to an attack, unlike urgent shield (which increases your AC).

Since Abrupt Jaunt doesn't have the same wording as stay the hand or halt, then it shouldn't be assumed that it works exactly the same way.

[eggynack]

Exactly! But there's nothing in abrupt jaunt that says how it works for an attack. So you can use it in response to an attack, which can arguably mean that you can only activate it AFTER the attack resolves, because this particular ability doesn't say how to works in response to an attack, unlike urgent shield (which increases your AC).

Since Abrupt Jaunt doesn't have the same wording as stay the hand or halt, then it shouldn't be assumed that it works exactly the same way.
Is the time before an attack and after the movement a period of time that exists? If so, then you can use immediate action after the movement and before the attack, because, "An immediate action can be performed at any time."

[Aracor]

Oh, I see. You're talking about during the charge. By RAW, no. Charging is one full-round action. There is no "between an action" period of time.

[eggynack]

I don't understand. Before the attack and after what movement?
I thought we were talking about charging. After the charge movement, before the attack. In any case, the logic applies to pretty much anything. The time when the sword is halfway to striking you is a time that exists, and an immediate action can occur at any time, so you can abrupt jaunt during that time.

Edit: Actions aren't time. Time is time. Your enemy is running up to you and attacking, not teleporting his sword directly into your gut. That motion exists in a period of time, as does actually swinging a sword, as does just about everything ever.

[Psyren]

I have a question then for those who say charging is one indivisible action. If you charge somebody, and halfway through your movement you pass over a square with a trap in it that plops you in a resilient sphere, or zaps you with hold person or opens a spike pit under you or something - will that still affect you, or do you just zip through and whack the person, and only then have to make your save?

And after you answer that - what happens if the square containing that trap is adjacent to your target?

[DR27]

Exactly! But there's nothing in abrupt jaunt that says how it works for an attack. So you can use it in response to an attack, which can arguably mean that you can only activate it AFTER the attack resolves, because this particular ability doesn't say how to works in response to an attack, unlike urgent shield (which increases your AC).

Since Abrupt Jaunt doesn't have the same wording as stay the hand or halt, then it shouldn't be assumed that it works exactly the same way.Arguably, if you are the DM that would do that - you should have just banned the damn thing. The ACF was half-written at best, and there is some RaI that wanted it to be a quick jump out from under an attack. (with no info given on how it interacts with spells that require attack rolls, teleporting out of a fireball, etc, etc, etc) If your interpretation is to nerf it to death, then just ban it and be done. Don't let your players choose it, and then during play surprise them by saying "the Barbarian's sword cleaves you clean in two, with each half teleporting away immediately after!"

[ArcturusV]

Okay, didn't know that I was stepping into a hornet's nest on that one. Not really my intention. Just wanted to make sure my understanding was correct. The ranged thing doesn't seem to work from a logical standpoint. Because... I mean if it's not Abrupt Jaunt but instead something else like a Readied action, as I understand it, it'd be:

"I declare that I'm going to attack you from ranged." "That triggers my Readied action, I move away." "Okay, then I attack you. Unless you moved to cover or something it has no impact on my attack".

So it's not like I could ready a move action to move away while an arrow is in flight and thus "dodge" it.

But the implication seems to be that Abrupt Jaunt works that way?

[eggynack]

Okay, didn't know that I was stepping into a hornet's nest on that one. Not really my intention. Just wanted to make sure my understanding was correct. The ranged thing doesn't seem to work from a logical standpoint. Because... I mean if it's not Abrupt Jaunt but instead something else like a Readied action, as I understand it, it'd be:

"I declare that I'm going to attack you from ranged." "That triggers my Readied action, I move away." "Okay, then I attack you. Unless you moved to cover or something it has no impact on my attack".

So it's not like I could ready a move action to move away while an arrow is in flight and thus "dodge" it.

But the implication seems to be that Abrupt Jaunt works that way?
Yeah, the ranged thing is a different thing, and a thing that is far less certain at that. My general interpretation, and I believe that it is a common one, is that you need to jaunt behind some sort of cover to get away from the arrow. It seems oddly possible that the arrow just kinda follows you, even if you teleport behind it while it's flying.

[DR27]

The more that this gets talked about, I'm realizing that the writing was so poor that it's basically a houserule - it's current form is "here is a neat concept - implement it however you want!"

[Aracor]

The more that this gets talked about, I'm realizing that the writing was so poor that it's basically a houserule - it's current form is "here is a neat concept - implement it however you want!"

Sadly, that is almost exactly the only way it can actually be worked.

[Aracor]

I have a question then for those who say charging is one indivisible action. If you charge somebody, and halfway through your movement you pass over a square with a trap in it that plops you in a resilient sphere, or zaps you with hold person or opens a spike pit under you or something - will that still affect you, or do you just zip through and whack the person, and only then have to make your save?

And after you answer that - what happens if the square containing that trap is adjacent to your target?


I have a question then for those who say charging is one indivisible action. If you charge somebody, and halfway through your movement you pass over a square with a trap in it that plops you in a resilient sphere, or zaps you with hold person or opens a spike pit under you or something - will that still affect you, or do you just zip through and whack the person, and only then have to make your save?

And after you answer that - what happens if the square containing that trap is adjacent to your target?Of course if you fail the save you cannot complete the charge. Regardless of whether or not the square is adjacent, you cannot complete the charge unless you pass the save.

However, the method to determine whether someone is hit or not already exists...attack rolls. That doesn't mean that an immediate action can be taken with the same timing as a trap in a location. Part of the point of initiative is that actions don't typically occur at the same time, so I don't see anything that allows immediate actions to circumvent that in general, so unless the specific immediate action has instructions for how to interrupt, then it does not. I'll admit that this is only one possible interpretation, and others are also possible.

[nedz]

The more that this gets talked about, I'm realizing that the writing was so poor that it's basically a houserule - it's current form is "here is a neat concept - implement it however you want!"

So your claiming that AJ is a dysfunctional rule. You may be right, but I don't think we have this one in the dysfunctional rules thread.

[Deophaun]

So it's not like I could ready a move action to move away while an arrow is in flight and thus "dodge" it.
You can't do that because arrows don't actually travel to their target in D&D. The attack rolls and damage rolls occur at the same time, so there is no opportunity to act in between:

When your attack succeeds, you deal damage
In general, you cannot act between an attack and damage, because they are simultaneous events. An ability would have to call out that it lets you act after the attack roll but before damage is rolled in order to crack that relationship (this is what makes wings of cover an awesome spell).

A charge, meanwhile, does not occur all at once:

You must move before your attack...

After moving, you may make a single melee attack...
So you can act after the movement but before the attack.

[navar100]

And I think reading these forums has either corrupted me or prevented me from believing the entry on blasting.

"As a blaster, you are the anchor of an adventuring party."

Even though it's generally agreed here that blasting is a terrible way to go about playing a caster.

Just a funny thought I had.

"Generally agreed" doesn't make it universal truth. In one of my gaming groups the Evoker Wizard has done quite well with his blasting spells. They take care of the mooks well enough. In a one-shot high level adventure as a goodbye salute for a player who moved away one blasty fire spell took care of a platoon of frost giants.

It would be stupid of any wizard to cast spells of only one type, even with beloved Transmutation or Conjuration, and the Evoker Wizard does cast other spells than just blasting. A Wall of Force proved most helpful separating the bad guys in one particular battle. Summon Monster for Air Elementals was useful getting the party on top of a very high cliff. However, blasting is his main focus, and the party has not suffered for it. For those occasions the blast damage did not outright kill a foe the warriors took care of the rest of the hit points and don't resent it. It's not absolutely necessary for the wizard to "get the kill" every time all the time for every single instance of spell use.