Ninja helps D:

[UnoriginalGamer]

Decided to change class after first day of a dungeon (More like my DM Told me to) From Spellthief to something else as long as it was still in the "Stealthy" Category. I decided upon a NINJA!!! But I'm having some trouble building it. Like what items I should take. What weapons. Where I should focus points into. I'm trying to go more of a thief style ninja as well. Helps would be amaaaazing :D

[Red Fel]

What is it about the ninja class that you like so much? Is it the stealth? The class abilities? Or is it the flavor?

Because I'm of the opinion that, if flavor's your goal, (and I'm about to sound like a broken record) you'd do better with a stealth-oriented ToB class than with ninja.

[eggynack]

Must it be a ninja? There's a good number of other stealthy classes that work better. You could go swordsage, factotum, beguiler, roguish cleric, regular rogue, or something that isn't any of those things. I'd call any of those options both better at ninja'ing, and more interesting to play, than a ninja.

[UnoriginalGamer]

[QUOTE=Red Fel;16142572]What is it about the ninja class that you like so much? Is it the stealth? The class abilities? Or is it the flavor?

It's the Stealth I enjoy. Usually I'd just grab another class but honestly I'm kinda new to building a character on my own. I always had some help and they'd tell me what class to go with what race and such. I've also only ever done spellcasters and wanted to try something around the stealthy/stealing/being able to strike from shadows style thing

[UnoriginalGamer]

Must it be a ninja? There's a good number of other stealthy classes that work better. You could go swordsage, factotum, beguiler, roguish cleric, regular rogue, or something that isn't any of those things. I'd call any of those options both better at ninja'ing, and more interesting to play, than a ninja.


Originally I was multiclassing rogue/sorcerer because I wanted to be able to self augment myself while being a bit of a fighter or thief type thing. If you can give me something like that I'd be super happy.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, I hate to be the person to post "just play ToB", but...

Swordsage makes a fairly effective ninja. There's even a PrC they qualify for with "ninja" in the name.

[Red Fel]

It's the Stealth I enjoy. Usually I'd just grab another class but honestly I'm kinda new to building a character on my own. I always had some help and they'd tell me what class to go with what race and such. I've also only ever done spellcasters and wanted to try something around the stealthy/stealing/being able to strike from shadows style thing

Great. Now, this is something we can work with. It sounds like you want the stealth, the sneaking and the damage spikes in combat.

Unlike some of the denizens of the Playground, my exposure to such classes is limited, so let me offer what I know. Namely, Tome of Battle.

Tome of Battle offers you the Swordsage, a light-armored martial artist with a vast array of cool tricks up his sleeve. One of these tricks is the Shadow Hand discipline, an entire spectrum of tricks involving sneak attacks, maneuverability, concealment, and ability drain. Another is the Desert Wind discipline, which involves even more maneuverability, and - oh yes - fire. Running around setting things on fire. Still another is the Setting Sun, which basically involves grappling, dodging, and throwing, and is aimed at combat with larger opponents. (Think Judo.)

There's also a prestige class, called the Shadow Sun (wait for it) Ninja - a master of light and darkness, capable of harnessing the good and evil inside of himself to transform into a shadowy monstrosity which can impose negative levels on enemies.

EDIT: Yeah, what Yuki said.

[eggynack]

Originally I was multiclassing rogue/sorcerer because I wanted to be able to self augment myself while being a bit of a fighter or thief type thing. If you can give me something like that I'd be super happy.
Well, most of the things I mentioned kinda fit that archetype. Factotums and beguilers do pretty well with the whole self-augmented stealth with arcane spells thing, and do so right out of the box. Beguilers in particular cast from their whole list spontaneously, so you always have the opportunity to do the right thing spell-wise, regardless of your build. You could also hold close to your original idea, and do something like a wizard/rogue/unseen seer. The general goal with any wizard/"not wizard advancing class" build is to have as much wizard advancing as possible.

[UnoriginalGamer]

Great. Now, this is something we can work with. It sounds like you want the stealth, the sneaking and the damage spikes in combat.

Unlike some of the denizens of the Playground, my exposure to such classes is limited, so let me offer what I know. Namely, Tome of Battle.

Tome of Battle offers you the Swordsage, a light-armored martial artist with a vast array of cool tricks up his sleeve. One of these tricks is the Shadow Hand discipline, an entire spectrum of tricks involving sneak attacks, maneuverability, concealment, and ability drain. Another is the Desert Wind discipline, which involves even more maneuverability, and - oh yes - fire. Running around setting things on fire. Still another is the Setting Sun, which basically involves grappling, dodging, and throwing, and is aimed at combat with larger opponents. (Think Judo.)

There's also a prestige class, called the Shadow Sun (wait for it) Ninja - a master of light and darkness, capable of harnessing the good and evil inside of himself to transform into a shadowy monstrosity which can impose negative levels on enemies.

EDIT: Yeah, what Yuki said.

Reading the ToB right now. And yes... Fire...Freaking fire..... Sold me :smallbiggrin: but really the thing is being able to steal. Haven't read through to the class yet but I'm assuming this allows it?

[Fouredged Sword]

The ninja class has a hard time competing with other better classes and even with tackling appropriately CR'd monsters. I would suggest one of the following.

1 - Play a swordsage

2 - Play a Rogue 3/ spellthief 1 / Sneak attack Fighter 1 / sorcerer 1 / unseen seer 10 / arcane trickster 4 - Plenty of rouge ability and sneak attack with 15 levels of sorcerer casting

3 - Play a rogue 5 / trapsmith 5 / rogue 10 - Great rogue PRC with some great self buffs like haste.

4 - Play a high magic skill monkey - Wizard 4 / Spellthief 1 / Unseen Seer 10 / Arcane Trickster 5 - 19/20 wizard casting, and with the master spellthief feat you can do it in light armor. Plenty of int focus for lots of skills.

5 - Factotum 20 - Fun class

[UnoriginalGamer]

Great. Now, this is something we can work with. It sounds like you want the stealth, the sneaking and the damage spikes in combat.

Unlike some of the denizens of the Playground, my exposure to such classes is limited, so let me offer what I know. Namely, Tome of Battle.


Another small thing I am curious about would be what race to put that through. I've only read through Player Handbook 1 for races so according to that I'd probably go Halfling. Is there any other race there could be recommended for this?

[Red Fel]

Reading the ToB right now. And yes... Fire...Freaking fire..... Sold me :smallbiggrin: but really the thing is being able to steal. Haven't read through to the class yet but I'm assuming this allows it?

"Able to steal" covers a lot of things.

Does swordsage have any sort of ethical prohibition against stealing? No. Will you have the ability to take things?

Well, that depends on your dex, your concealment, and your ability to bluff your way out of trouble, doesn't it? :smallwink:


Another small thing I am curious about would be what race to put that through. I've only read through Player Handbook 1 for races so according to that I'd probably go Halfling. Is there any other race there could be recommended for this?

Any number of races work. The great thing about ToB is that there are plenty of ways to play the classes.

For instance, if you're investing heavily in Shadow Hand disciplines, you'll want things that give you mobility and concealment. Being small helps. Mobility also helps nicely with Desert Wind, and small size really maximizes the benefit you get from Setting Sun.

By contrast, if you want to emphasize Diamond Mind, you want a high Con to max out your Concentration checks. If you want to go into two-weapon fighting and critfishing with Tiger Claw, you want plenty of boost to your Jump checks. And so forth.

It's less about the "one race" for the job, and more about the job you want to do with the class. And, of course, the race whose flavor you enjoy.

For example, if I wanted to do an unarmed swordsage variant with an emphasis on Diamond Mind, I might go with Warforged, or even Dragonborn Warforged, for the big boosts to Con and the ability to have augmented armor despite a lack of proficiency. But that's not a ninja build.

[UnoriginalGamer]

"Able to steal" covers a lot of things.

Does swordsage have any sort of ethical prohibition against stealing? No. Will you have the ability to take things?

Well, that depends on your dex, your concealment, and your ability to bluff your way out of trouble, doesn't it? :smallwink:



Any number of races work. The great thing about ToB is that there are plenty of ways to play the classes.

For instance, if you're investing heavily in Shadow Hand disciplines, you'll want things that give you mobility and concealment. Being small helps. Mobility also helps nicely with Desert Wind, and small size really maximizes the benefit you get from Setting Sun.

By contrast, if you want to emphasize Diamond Mind, you want a high Con to max out your Concentration checks. If you want to go into two-weapon fighting and critfishing with Tiger Claw, you want plenty of boost to your Jump checks. And so forth.

It's less about the "one race" for the job, and more about the job you want to do with the class. And, of course, the race whose flavor you enjoy.

For example, if I wanted to do an unarmed swordsage variant with an emphasis on Diamond Mind, I might go with Warforged, or even Dragonborn Warforged, for the big boosts to Con and the ability to have augmented armor despite a lack of proficiency. But that's not a ninja build.

:smalleek: I have no idea what pretty much any of that means in terms of the Diamond mind or Tiger Claw or such

[Red Fel]

:smalleek: I have no idea what pretty much any of that means in terms of the Diamond mind or Tiger Claw or such

Okay, here's the short version.

The special abilities in ToB are called "maneuvers." Maneuvers are divided into nine thematic groups, or "disciplines," each centered around different functions. The three core classes in ToB - the Crusader, Swordsage and Warblade - each can select their maneuvers from certain disciplines.

Each discipline has a specialization, and a particular skill it keys off of. For example, Diamond Mind is about making precise, powerful attacks, and keys off of a Concentration check. Tiger Claw is about leaping, two-weapon fighting, and an emphasis on critical hits, and keys off of Jump. And so forth.

In order to access more advanced maneuvers, you have to have a certain number of maneuvers within that discipline already learned. For example, a high-level Setting Sun maneuver would require you to know three other Setting Sun maneuvers. Thus, while it can be fun to spread your knowledge across multiple disciplines, you would do well to focus particularly on one or two.

Does that explain things somewhat?

[Gigas Breaker]

I am currently playing a Dark Lesser Aasimar Totemist 2/Swordsage2 with Shape Soulmeld(Felmist Robe). I am having so much fun sneaking around with this guy. Hide in plain sight with always on concealment and a 30 when I take 10 in hide makes me sneak as well as the butler from Mr. Deeds.

[Red Fel]

I am currently playing a Dark Lesser Aasimar Totemist 2/Swordsage2 with Shape Soulmeld(Felmist Robe). I am having so much fun sneaking around with this guy. Hide in plain sight with always on concealment and a 30 when I take 10 in hide makes me sneak as well as the butler from Mr. Deeds.

Oh, that's a sick combination. I approve! :smallcool:

[UnoriginalGamer]

Okay, here's the short version.

The special abilities in ToB are called "maneuvers." Maneuvers are divided into nine thematic groups, or "disciplines," each centered around different functions. The three core classes in ToB - the Crusader, Swordsage and Warblade - each can select their maneuvers from certain disciplines.

Each discipline has a specialization, and a particular skill it keys off of. For example, Diamond Mind is about making precise, powerful attacks, and keys off of a Concentration check. Tiger Claw is about leaping, two-weapon fighting, and an emphasis on critical hits, and keys off of Jump. And so forth.

In order to access more advanced maneuvers, you have to have a certain number of maneuvers within that discipline already learned. For example, a high-level Setting Sun maneuver would require you to know three other Setting Sun maneuvers. Thus, while it can be fun to spread your knowledge across multiple disciplines, you would do well to focus particularly on one or two.

Does that explain things somewhat?


Much better and I ended up researching while I was away on the maneuvers and stances. Currently looking at all the Shadow Hand ones and liking what I see. Basically exactly what I wanted. Still I will have to keep checking it out.

So how does getting manuevers and stances for your character work? I know that manuevers are like sorcerer spells in that at certain levels you can trade one for another style thing but other than that whats up with them?

[Yuki Akuma]

Another small thing I am curious about would be what race to put that through. I've only read through Player Handbook 1 for races so according to that I'd probably go Halfling. Is there any other race there could be recommended for this?

Anyone can take cross class ranks in Sleight of Hand, and Swordsages get a lot of skill points.

Take a Rogue or Factotum dip to get it as class skill for one level and your cap will even be Level + 3 (although any level without it as a class skill means each rank costs 2 skill points).

[UnoriginalGamer]

Anyone can take cross class ranks in Sleight of Hand, and Swordsages get a lot of skill points.

Take a Rogue or Factotum dip to get it as class skill for one level and your cap will even be Level + 3 (although any level without it as a class skill means each rank costs 2 skill points).

Okay so I dipped into rogue lvl 1 with a halfling for the no xp loss with multi to a rogue. Still what items should I equip myself with? And any idea on the feats as well?

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade will likely be nice for you - not that you can take either at first level.

[UnoriginalGamer]

Well, Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade will likely be nice for you - not that you can take either at first level.

This dungeon starts at 5. Don't ask I'm not DM thats just how we roll down here

[Red Fel]

Much better and I ended up researching while I was away on the maneuvers and stances. Currently looking at all the Shadow Hand ones and liking what I see. Basically exactly what I wanted. Still I will have to keep checking it out.

So how does getting manuevers and stances for your character work? I know that manuevers are like sorcerer spells in that at certain levels you can trade one for another style thing but other than that whats up with them?

Well, again, this is explained in the book, but essentially: Maneuvers must be readied - that is, you select from your list of "known" maneuvers a smaller list that you want to have "ready" for a given combat. These are available to you at the beginning of combat, and may be refreshed during combat, with different mechanics depending on your class. Stances are initiated as a swift action and retained until you switch them off, go to sleep, or are otherwise rendered helpless - meaning you can stay in one all day if you like. Other maneuvers, once ready, are exhausted once you use them, and must be refreshed in some way, or else they are recovered after combat ends. Again, read the description of each class for how they are refreshed.

Everything else you need to know about a maneuver - how they are used, what kind of action, and what their effect is - is explained in its description.

With regard to the Disciplines, they are not mutually exclusive - that is, you don't give up Setting Sun by taking Shadow Hand, for example. However, each class has access only to certain disciplines, listed in the class description. Yes, many of them are like spells, but others may work within an anti-magic field, so it's good to read the descriptions. Note also that you may take maneuvers or stances with feats (Martial Study or Martial Stance) and that classes may have mechanics which allow you to trade out a lower-level maneuver for a higher-level maneuver at a certain level, assuming you meet the prerequisites.

The book is very well-organized, and one thorough read-through should familiarize you with all the details you need.