A fighter fix--this one actually does something.

[Bears With Lasers]

By which I mean, it addresses many of the problems that keep the Fighter from being competitive at higher levels, and its relative lack of tactical options.
I think so, at least.
Of course, this also boosts it head and shoulders above other melee classes--my aim was to keep it competitive with Tome of Battle (which inspired some of the abilities).

Here it is:

"When on deadly ground--fight." ~Sun Tzu, The Art of War

-Concentration is a class skill.
-The Fighter now has the following class abilities:
Level 1: Bonus Feat
Level 2: Bonus Feat
Level 3: Art of War, Simple
Level 4: Bonus Feat
Level 5: Art of War, Simple
Level 6: Bonus Feat
Level 7: Art of War, Simple
Level 8: Bonus Feat
Level 9: Art of War, Advanced
Level 10: Bonus Feat
Level 11: Art of War, Advanced
Level 12: Bonus Feat
Level 13: Art of War, Advanced
Level 14: Bonus Feat
Level 15: Art of War, Complex
Level 16: Bonus Feat
Level 17: Art of War, Complex
Level 18: Bonus Feat
Level 19: Art of War, Complex
Level 20: Bonus Feat, Art of War, Peerless

Art of War: at level 3, and every odd level after that, the Fighter gains a special ability from the appropriate list of Arts of War. No ability may be taken more than once. If an Art of War ability has other such abilities as prerequisites, a Fighter must possess the prerequisite abilities to take the ability in question.


Simple Arts of War:

Overcome Difficulty: Weapon Size (Ex) – the Fighter learns to make the most of powerful swings, regardless of the weapon or weapons he is wielding. When using the Power Attack feat, the fighter may add one and a half times the number subtracted from his attack rolls (rounded down) to the damage of a one-handed weapon and one-half times the number subtracted from his attack rolls (rounded down) to the damage of a light weapon.

Fléche (Ex) – when charging, the Fighter does not provoke any attacks of opportunity.

Overcome Limitation: Size (Ex)– the Fighter may receive or increase size bonuses (but not penalties), except those to physical attributes, or reduce size penalties (without affecting bonuses), as though he was one size category smaller or larger than he is, at will; he may switch from one to the other as an immediate action. This Art does not permit him to use weapons sized for creatures of a size category different from his own without penalty.

Expert Flanker (Ex): if the Fighter and an ally are both threatening a creature, they are considered to be flanking it. The fighter may provide flanking to more than one ally in this way, but he only receives the normal +2 flanking bonus, regardless.

Overcome Obstacle: Terrain (Ex) – the Fighter may treat difficult terrain as though it was regular terrain, thus being subject to none of the limitations of or penalties applied to creatures in difficult terrain.

Disciplined Will (Ex) – the Fighter battles mental influences fiercely; when he fails a saving throw against a mind-affecting spell or effect, the effect is delayed by a round—it does not apply until the same point during the following round. This does not count against the effect’s duration.

Battle Learning: Magic (Ex) – the Fighter studies spellcasting enemies, allies, or both, learning to identify their spells so that he can better deal with them. He adds half his class levels, rounded up, as a competence bonus on Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana checks, but only in regards to spells being cast.

Battle Learning: Alertness (Ex) – the Fighter trains to hear and notice things others might overlook, the better to see his enemy coming to stand guard over his sleeping companions. He adds half his class levels, rounded up, as a competence bonus on Spot and Listen checks.

Battle Learning: Acrobatics (Ex) – the Fighter trains to perform feats of acrobatics and mobility in battle and other situations while armored. His armor check penalty does not apply to his Jump, Balance, Tumble, and Climb skills.

Weapon Aptitude (Ex) – the Fighter has the flexibility to adjust his weapon training. He can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat he has that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). He must have the newly designated weapon available during his practice session to make this change. For example, if he wishes to change the designated weapon for his Weapon Focus feat from greatsword to longsword, he must have a longsword available to practice with during his practice session.
He can adjust any number of his feats in this way, and he doesn't have to adjust them all in the same way. However, he can't change the weapon choices in such a way that he no longer meets the prerequisite for some other feat he possesses. For instance, if he has both Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon Specialization (longsword), he can't change the designated weapon for Weapon Focus unless he also changes the weapon for Weapon Specialization in the same way.


Advanced Arts of War:

Overcome Influence – Wind (Ex) – the Fighter has learned to compensate for the wind when he shoots a bow; he may treat wind force as two categories lower (i.e. Severe instead of Hurricane) when determining how they affect his ranged attacks, and may fire arrows or bolts through a Wind Wall spell or equivalent effect as though they were any other normal ranged weapon.

Overcome Difficulty: Freedom Arcana (Ex) – the Fighter has either had his attempts to grapple an enemy thwarted by the Freedom of Movement spell, or witnessed an ally use such a spell to keep himself safe from grapples. In order to overcome this, the Fighter has developed a complex technique that allows him to defeat the spell’s influence. When the Fighter grapples an enemy under the effects of the Freedom of Movement spell or something that duplicates its effects, his opponent receives +15 on grapple checks made to resist a grapple and grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple, rather than automatically succeeding on those checks as the spell would normally allow him to do.

Overcome Limitation: Reach (Ex) – the Fighter trains to attack while positioning, lunge, and fight in close quarters. As a swift action, the Fighter may increase his reach by 5 feet for one round. A Fighter wielding a reach weapon may also take an immediate action to decrease his reach, allowing him to threaten as though he were not wielding a reach weapon. While his reach is increased or decreased, the Fighter takes a –2 penalty to AC. The fighter may restore his reach to normal as an immediate action.

Charging Pounce (Ex) – the Fighter may make a full attack on a charge. If he has the ability to transfer the to-hit penalty from Power Attack to his AC, he may not use it with Charging Pounce.

Overcome Obstacle: Distance (Ex) – the Fighter may charge greater distances, moving up to three times his speed on a charge rather than up to two. He may not make a full attack on a charge taking him farther than two times his speed, even if he has the ability to do so (such as from the Charging Pounce Art of War or the Psionic Lion’s Charge power).

Tactical Awareness (Ex) – the Fighter learns to be aware of the precise details of the battlefield positions of those around him, gaining the ability to pinpoint the unseen. He gains Blindsense 30’ when in combat, which becomes Blindsight 50’ at level 15; however, any creature that has taken no actions on its last round can not be detected by this Blindsense or Blindsight. While the Fighter’s sight or hearing is impaired, such as if he is Blinded, Deafened, in the area of effect of a Darkness spell, he loses his Blindsense; at level 15, his Blindsight is reduced to Blindsense, instead.

Heart of Battle (Ex) – the Fighter is hardened against the horror and din of battle and the debilitating effects of spells. He becomes Sickened instead of Nauseated, Shaken instead of Frightened, Frightened instead of Panicked, Stunned instead of Paralyzed, Dazed instead of Stunned or Cowering, Staggered instead of Dazed, Fatigued instead of Exhausted, Ability Damaged instead of Ability Drained, and Fascinated instead of Confused. If something would normally inflict the Shaken, Fatigued, or Sickened conditions on him, the Fighter remains unaffected. All such conditions retain their normal durations, and the fighter may only mitigate or negate a number of conditions equal to 3+his Charisma bonus, if any, at a time.

Spell-Shattering Strike (Su) – the Fighter has fought wizards and learned the power of their spells—and how to combat it. When wielding a magic weapon, he may forego the damage on any attack he makes to strip away a spell currently in effect on the target; if he succeeds on an opposed caster level check, substituting his base attack bonus for his caster level (normally 0), he may dispel a single spell currently in effect on his target. If the fighter is wielding a weapon made of Cold Iron, he receives a +5 circumstance bonus on this check. At level 15, he may also make a single attack as a full-round action, and if it hits, he may attempt to dispel all spells currently on the target instead of doing damage; to do this, he must succeed on a check of 1d20+class level+5 opposed by a caster level check from the caster of the spell for each spell in effect on his target.

Willful Resistance (Ex) – the Fighter is a disciplined warrior who can use that discipline to batter through spells or effects that might harm them. As an immediate action, the Fighter can replace a single saving throw with a concentration check.

Basic Mastery: the Fighter may select three Arts of War from the Simple Arts of War list.




Complex Arts of War:

Overcome Difficulty: Weakness (Su) – the Fighter knows that his place is on his front line, and he pushes his body beyond its normal capabilities to stay there, come hells or high water. The Fighter automatically reduces any penalty (whether environment-based, magical, or other) applied to his attack rolls, ability scores, and saving throws while in combat by 3+his Constitution bonus, if any. He may only reduce a number of penalties equal to his Constitution bonus or 1, whichever is greater, at a time; however, he selects which penalties to apply the reduction to.

Tactical Reflexes (Ex) – the Fighter knows when to strike, lightning-fast, at a sudden opening; as an immediate action, he may take an attack action, even when it is not his turn.

Shattering Blow (Ex) – by focusing and making a single strike rather than several, the Fighter may inflict a devastating blow. As a full-round action, he may make a single attack that ignores the DR and hardness of its target and deals +10d6 damage, +1d6 for every two Fighter levels above 10th.

Seize the Initiative (Ex) – even if initially surprised, the Fighter can react faster than almost anyone else. As a swift action, the fighter gains a competence bonus to initiative equal to his class level.

Overcome Limitation: Size Difference (Ex) – the Fighter has learned complex techniques that allow him to match strengths with or topple even enormous beasts. Any creature making an opposed check against the Fighter does not get to add size bonuses to its check. Additionally, the fighter may attempt to grapple creatures up to three size categories larger, instead of just one.

Overcome Obstacle: Bindings (Su) – the Fighter is capable of focusing his will and brushing aside anything holding him back. As a standard action, the Fighter may grant himself a Freedom of Movement (as per the spell) effect that lasts for a number of rounds equal to the fighter’s class level.

Mind of Battle (Ex) – the Fighter is an excellent judge of his own skill, and capable of continuously excellent performance. As an immediate action, the Fighter may “take 10” on any one attack roll, opposed check, or saving throw while in combat.

Tactical Positioning (Ex) – the Fighter has learned how to position himself while fighting; with each successful attack he makes, he may take a free five-foot step that does not count against his limit of one five-foot step per round. This ability applies once per successful attack roll made—if an ability allows the Fighter to make multiple attacks with a single attack roll (for example, the Manyshot feat), the Fighter receives a single five-foot step if the attack roll succeeds. The fighter may not move further than his current move speed with these five-foot steps.

Spell-Parrying Steel (Su) – the Fighter has dealt with enough spellcasters to learn to react to their spells—and send them hurtling back. When the figher is the target of a ranged touch attack with a spell or spell-like ability and is wielding a magic weapon, he may, as an immediate action, make an attack roll (with a +5 circumstance bonus if the weapon he is parrying with is made of Cold Iron) versus a DC of 10+the spell’s caster level+the spellcaster’s casting ability modifier. If he succeeds, the spell is deflected and dissipates harmlessly as it rebounds off of the Fighter’s weapon.

Advanced Mastery – the Fighter may select two Arts of War from the Advanced Arts of War list.



Peerless Arts of War:

Peerless Reactions (Ex), prerequisites Willful Resistance, Tactical Reflexes – the Fighter has a mental focus greater than any opponent, allowing him to react much faster than others. He gains a second swift or immediate action, now able to take two in a round rather than the one he could normally.

Peerless Awareness (Ex), prerequisites Seize the Initiative and Tactical Awareness – the Fighter has developed an awareness of the so perfect it borders on the supernatural. The Fighter now always adds a competence bonus equal to his one-half class level to his initiative checks, and the Blindsense or Blindsight granted by Tactical Awareness increase to 60’. Additionally, he cannot be surprised.

Soul of Battle (Su), prerequisites Heart of Battle and Mind of Battle – the Fighter is a master of battle, his force of will making his body far tougher than it seems. He automatically suceeds on saves vs. massive damage, does not fail saving throws on a natural 1, is immune to critical hits, [Death] spells and negative levels, and may reroll one attack roll per round.

Spell-Destroying Steel (Su), prerequisites Spell-Shattering Strike and Spell-Parrying Steel – the Fighter has trained long and hard to be able to combat mages; when using Spell-Parrying Steel, he may also parry spells that target him (but not area-of-effect spells such as Fireball) even if they don’t involve a ranged touch attack. Additionally, he may, as an immediate action, cause any spell or spell-like ability producing a force effect in any square the fighter threatens to fail, unless the caster succeeds on a caster level check, DC 10+the fighter's level (+5 more if the fighter is wielding a weapon made of cold iron).

Peerless Tactics (Ex), prerequisites Tactical Reflexes, Lightning Reactions – the Fighter can influence the course of an entire battle, gaining a tactical advantage; as a result, he can spend an immediate action to make a full attack once per encounter.

[erewhon]

Hrrrrrrrm.

Wow, that's a LOT of feats the Fighter no longer has to worry about.

Let's all digest this. Oh, and I like the Spell-Destroying Blow. :) Although a lot of this stuff is all up in the Epic grill...

But that's not unusual. :)

Hrrrrrmmm...

[PhoeKun]

While reading through this, I kept finding things that made me think "wow, that's overpowered", but every time, some spell or another would pop into my head, leaving me to think "wait, no it isn't!"

I think I like this. I just may have to test it at some point...

[Bears With Lasers]

It is.

Changed Spell-Destroying Blow a bit, it was a bit too good. There's probably others that are too good; feel free to point out anything that's unbalancing (compared to spellcasters, Tome of Battle classes, and the like, not the good ol' Barbarian and Paladin and such).

Edit: made Soul of Battle (Su); nerfed Peerless Awareness to fighter level/2 constantly rather than fighter level, to keep Seize the Initiative useful.

A lot of these things seem really powerful at first glance, but the important balancing factors are swift/immediate actions (you can only do so much in any one round--I'm thinking of removing the Complex Art that gives a second immediate action) and the fact that I'm comparing them to what casters can do.

[Cybren]

Speaking of the Barbarian and Paladin...
what does this do for them?

[Bears With Lasers]

This does nothing for them; I'm fixing the Fighter here, not all of D&D. :P A "quick fix" would be to give then an Art of War every three levels.

[Cybren]

Hey, they're basicly fighters who spent all their bonus feats on dubious class features

[Bears With Lasers]

Basically.

One of the things I'm considering here is removing the Complex "extra immediate action" Art. I don't know if it makes things too good, when you can use'em together or twice a round.

[Fizban]

I kept thinking it was overpowered as I read, but then I thought: oh wait, thanks to ToB, Warblades can do about twice this much stuff and still have several fighter bonus feats. My picknits:

I think Baisic Mastery should only give you two, three just sounds like too much.

Spell Destroying Stell needs a range on that force destruction. Also, spell parrying and spell destroying feel a little too strong still. A fighter's attack bonus is likely to be higher than a caster's CL+casting ability mod. Weapon enhancements are common, but (except for the bead of cheese), CL boosts are fairly rare, especially in magic item form. I've never seen a magic item (except the bead of cheese) grant more than a +1 to CL, so this ability favors the fighter rather than being on even ground.

Edit: yeah, you should probably remove the extra immediate action one. Getting an extra swift action takes epic, and generally the limit of one/round is what keeps them from being the uber cheese. Even one more is a bad idea.

[Bears With Lasers]

I'd say Advanced Arts are better enough than Simple ones to justify getting three Simple Arts for one Advanced. I mean, I still wouldn't do it if I were playing this fix.

Spell-Destroying Steel does need a range, yeah; I'm tempted to limit it to "when the spell gets cast within reach", but that's a bit limiting. Within charge range, maybe.

As to spell-parrying/destroying being strong, they're meant to be. The Fighter's giving up nifty other abilities for them, and the caster still has a bunch of options, like non-single-target spells, area spells, casting two spells in one round, etc; compare that ability to a 50k Rod of Absorption. The Rod's limited-use, but more absolute.

[Cybren]

Shouldn't the "add his class levels to initiative" be an immediate action, not a swift one? Since... once he uses it he won't be able to act since his turn woul dhave already passed? Or is it so that he can go, and then go again at the start of the next turn?

[Bears With Lasers]

Shouldn't the "add his class levels to initiative" be an immediate action, not a swift one? Since... once he uses it he won't be able to act since his turn woul dhave already passed? Or is it so that he can go, and then go again at the start of the next turn?

That's exactly what it's for. It's ripped straight out of the Moment of Alacrity maneuver from Tome of Battle, basically (7th level, Diamond Mind).

[The_Werebear]

Mind of Battle (Ex) – the Fighter is an excellent judge of his own skill, and capable of continuously excellent performance. As an immediate action, the Fighter may “take 15” on any one attack roll, opposed check, or saving throw while in combat.

How frequently can this be used? Once per day, once per round, once per combat?

[Bears With Lasers]

"As an immediate action," like it says. So once/round, presuming you don't use your immediate action on the ten other abilities that need it.

Mind of Battle was inspired by a) Weapon Supremacy (take 10 on an attack, add +5) and b) Expending psionic focus + a Concentration-check-for-X Diamond Mind maneuver from ToB.

[Emperor Tippy]

This will get play tested in one of my groups by he end of next week so we will see how it works out.

It loosk good though bears.

[Captain van der Decken]

Seems roughly as powerful as warblade, if not more so. I like it.

[Bears With Lasers]

Good; Warblade power is about what I was going for. :)

[Pegasos989]

Seize the initiative seems a bit weak for complex art of war. I would propably make it advanced instead. (Sure, it might let fighter act twice in a round but only once per fight, still not acting more than once per round and even these assume that he was last in initiative the first round. While useful, spending a complex art of war on something that might come up on the second round of the fights in which I am ((nearly))last in initiative is just not something that seems worth it.)

Otherwise, neat "addon package". None of the abilities seem abusable or broken, though I get a feeling that there is some way to abuse being able to take attack action as immediate action but I just can't think of a way now... :D Have you concidered submittin this to WoTC char op boards and asking if they see anything broken in it?

[Bears With Lasers]

I'm going to do that eventually; I figured I'd drop it here and see if there was anything glaring, first.

I assigned Seize the Initiative to Complex Arts because it's essentially the same as the 7th-level Moment of Alacrity maneuver. Going first next round is pretty useful--it can mean the difference between just moving up to an enemy caster, or moving up and finishing him off.

I should consider switching it and the attack-as-an-immediate action one, maybe.

[Raum]

I like the idea of giving fighters abilities using swift and immediate actions, actions are the coin of combat after all. However, I don't really like the flavor and targets of many of the abilities. The abilities you've given the fighter seem targeted towards making him a mage killer rather than a better tank. To me classes aren't balanced by the ability to kill or defeat another class in a duel, they're balanced by being the best at their role and having something to add in most situations.

[Lord Iames Osari]

I disagree. Only a small portion of the new fighter's abilities are directly related to fighting casters. The rest of the abilities, while certainly useful when facing casters, are more general in application.

[Raum]

Approximately one third of the abilities are directly related to killing casters. Several others are indirectly related to killing casters.

[Thrawn183]

I would say Heart of Battle might need to be complex rather than advanced. But i'm conflicted on that.
On one hand, if you don't get it early enough its not going to be very useful.
On the other hand, there are a lot of enemies that are rendered completely usesless by it. A lot.

PS. Personally, I think that fighters should be stronger in combat than casters, because they can use their magic out of combat to do so much more, so I don't think you have to worry about anything being particularly overpowered.

[NullAshton]

Isn't the ability to take 15 on an attack a little bit powerful? Take the ability that allows you three immediate actions, and three attacks a turn you know exactly what it's going to hit. Figure out your opponents AC, and you can power attack for the absolute maximum for three attacks, without reducing your AC or with a chance of missing.

Also, with a falchion or a scimitar, you can get criticals every time with it.

[Thrawn183]

I hadn't even considered at looking at how you would confirm criticals, maybe just have it apply to the initial attack roll?

[Pegasos989]

I like the idea of giving fighters abilities using swift and immediate actions, actions are the coin of combat after all. However, I don't really like the flavor and targets of many of the abilities. The abilities you've given the fighter seem targeted towards making him a mage killer rather than a better tank. To me classes aren't balanced by the ability to kill or defeat another class in a duel, they're balanced by being the best at their role and having something to add in most situations.

True. And as it stands, they add little in situations against spellcasters, so it is logical they get boost there.


I don't think that the thingy Null Ashton points out is overpowered: Sure, at level 20 you can take 15 on three attack rolls but that means you don't use actions on other stuff (like making three additional attacks. As immediate actions.) and you don't have other peerless stuff then (which are nice)

EDIT: BTW, this would be mean in gestalt game, because caster gets more quickened spells per round. At 20th level, three quickened spells + normal spell per round... But well, who balances classes for 20th level gestalt games...?

[Emperor Tippy]

Isn't the ability to take 15 on an attack a little bit powerful? Take the ability that allows you three immediate actions, and three attacks a turn you know exactly what it's going to hit. Figure out your opponents AC, and you can power attack for the absolute maximum for three attacks, without reducing your AC or with a chance of missing.

Also, with a falchion or a scimitar, you can get criticals every time with it.
Its based off of Weapon Supremacy. Bears and I debated this for a while last night and decided it was balanced. It's only doable at 20th level and it requires you to invest in 2 complex Arts, 1 Advanced Art, and 1 Peerless Art.

And you can't ever get a critical with Mind of Battle. To get a critical requires you to [b]roll[/roll]. So if you want to be anal about the RAW he can't crit.



And Seize the Initiative should stay complex if for no other reason then its a prerequisite for Peerless Awareness, which is arguably the most powerful ability up there.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Overcome Limitation is beyond ridiculous. It gives you an improved version of Powerful Build, which is already overpowered,

I really think these should just be feats with prerequisites of FTR levels. As it stands, it may offer power but it ruins the entire fun and coolness of the fighter class: the customization and access to feats.

(Yes, and ToB is a ludicrous, heavily overpowered book that I never allow use of because it was dumb for a multitude of reasons, so it isn't a good judgement of whether something is or isn't overpowered.

[Emperor Tippy]

...Bears didn't remove the bonus feats. The fighter still has them and just gets this stuff on top of it.

[Cybren]

Overcome Limitation is beyond ridiculous. It gives you an improved version of Powerful Build, which is already overpowered,

I really think these should just be feats with prerequisites of FTR levels. As it stands, it may offer power but it ruins the entire fun and coolness of the fighter class: the customization and access to feats.

(Yes, and ToB is a ludicrous, heavily overpowered book that I never allow use of because it was dumb for a multitude of reasons, so it isn't a good judgement of whether something is or isn't overpowered.
Well, overcome limitation:size explicitly Access:denies using larger weapons without penalty.
While you have the right to do so, I don't see what's so overpowering about ToB when there are wizards who can turn into dragons, and druids who can turn into dragons, and clerics who can well they don't fit the dragon-themed analogy but still they're pretty good.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

I really think these should just be feats with prerequisites of FTR levels. As it stands, it may offer power but it ruins the entire fun and coolness of the fighter class: the customization and access to feats.


Um, this gives you MORE customization.


And Seize the Initiative should stay complex if for no other reason then its a prerequisite for Peerless Awareness, which is arguably the most powerful ability up there.

I dunno. With my current DM, Soul of Battle would be unbelievably useful.


I like this a lot. I think some of the Art of War abilities need to be more clearly defined, but the concept is good. Also, figuring out a way that other applicable combat classes would get these would persuade a lot of people as to the merit; currently, it balances the fighter class with caster classes, but everything else takes a big dive. (Yes, I know it's not supposed to be a comprehensive fix.)

Like many people said, at first glance it seems overpowered, but since the fighter is only getting an Art of War ability every other level, with the best ones later, it works out well.

[Emperor Tippy]

Soul of Battle is very useful but so is pretty much being guaranteed to go first.

[fangthane]

My apologies in advance; I'm probably going to deeply offend you. :)


By which I mean, it addresses many of the problems that keep the Fighter from being competitive at higher levels, and its relative lack of tactical options.
Please enumerate these problems, and be specific; I've played near-epic fighters and not noticed a particular problem (though, granted, that may be due to quality DMs who tailor things to the party's capabilities)



"When on deadly ground--fight." ~Sun Tzu, The Art of War

-4+INT skill points; Concentration is a class skill.
Fighters who desire more skill points can put a higher ability score in intelligence. Period. Sorry, but I don't see any justification for increased skills.


Add the following class abilities:
Level 3: Art of War, Simple
Level 5: Art of War, Simple
Level 7: Art of War, Simple
Level 9: Art of War, Advanced
Level 11: Art of War, Advanced
Level 13: Art of War, Advanced
Level 15: Art of War, Complex
Level 17: Art of War, Complex
Level 19: Art of War, Complex
Level 20: Art of War, Peerless

Epic's going to get messy, methinks. A clarification though; this is instead of feats, or in addition to the fighter bonus feats every two levels? If it's in addition, I have one word for it. Gruyere. If this is typical of ToB builds, I'm glad I don't have it.

Simple Arts of War:
(my editorial comments)
Fléche (Ex) – when charging, the Fighter does not provoke any attacks of opportunity. This, I like.

Overcome Limitation: Size (Ex)– the Fighter may receive or increase size bonuses (but not penalties), except those to physical attributes, or reduce size penalties (without affecting bonuses), as though he was one size category smaller or larger than he is, at will; he may switch from one to the other as an immediate action. This Art does not permit him to use weapons sized for creatures of a size category different from his own without penalty. Looks good, and it makes sense to allow for fighters to control this a bit.

Expert Flanker (Ex): if the Fighter and an ally are both adjacent to a creature, they are considered to be flanking it. As well, both receive a +4 to-hit bonus to hit when flanking a creature, rather than a +2. This is overpowered. Either allow the fighter a +4 when he's flanking (i.e. Vexing Flanker), or allow the flank so long as both are adjacent (i.e. similar in effect to Adaptable Flanker), not both. See PHB2 for details.

Overcome Obstacle: Terrain (Ex) – the Fighter may treat difficult terrain as though it was regular terrain, thus being subject to none of the limitations of or penalties applied to creatures in difficult terrain. I'd limit this to either removing the speed penalty or allowing run/charging in difficult terrain, but not both. Not a huge big deal in any case though, as it's a bit of a niche ability.

Disciplined Will (Ex) – the Fighter battles mental influences fiercely; when he fails a saving throw against a mind-affecting spell or effect, the effect is delayed by a round—it does not apply until the same point during the following round. This does not count against the effect’s duration. Here's where I'd beef things a touch. I'd state that if the save was failed by less than 2, the fighter may re-roll next round and that only after a double-fail, the spell immediately takes effect. Otherwise, he still gets the round's grace but ultimately succombs anyhow.

Battle Learning: Magic (Ex) – the Fighter studies spellcasting enemies, allies, or both. He adds half his class levels, rounded up, as a competence bonus on Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana checks. Additionally, he may buy Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana ranks at a 1:1 ratio, although the maximum skill cap for cross-class skills remains. No. Just, no. Makes no sense for a fighter, whatsoever.

Battle Learning: Alertness (Ex) – the Fighter trains to hear and notice things others might overlook. He adds half his class levels, rounded up, as a competence bonus on Spot and Listen checks. Additionally, he may buy Spot and Listen ranks at a 1:1 ratio, although the maximum skill cap for cross-class skills remains. I'd limit this; it's more justifiable than spellcraft but I'd limit the class-level bonus to a maximum of +5, as well as making that bonus only effective in combat (i.e. he's no more likely to notice the bard smirking at his lack of rhythm, but he IS more likely to notice the rogue sneaking around for a flank, or the reduced damage dealt to an iron golem due to DR.)

Battle Learning: Acrobatics (Ex) – the Fighter trains to perform feats of acrobatics and mobility in battle and other situations while armored. His armor check penalty does not apply to his Jump, Balance, Tumble, and Climb skills. You have GOT to be kidding. Half the penalty if you like (and that makes some sense), but I categorically will NOT accept a fighter pulling cartwheels penalty-free in adamantine full plate. Not gonna happen.

Weapon Aptitude (Ex) – the Fighter has the flexibility to adjust his weapon training. He can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat he has that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). He must have the newly designated weapon available during his practice session to make this change. For example, if he wish to change the designated weapon for his Weapon Focus feat from greatsword to longsword, he must have a longsword available to practice with during his practice session.
He can adjust any number of your feats in this way, and he doesn't have to adjust them all in the same way. However, he can't change the weapon choices in such a way that he no longer meets the prerequisite for some other feat he possesses. For instance, if he has both Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon Specialization (longsword), he can't change the designated weapon for Weapon Focus unless he also changes the weapon for Weapon Specialization in the same way. I'd re-word this. He can change his prerequisites but if he does, any feats he possesses for which he no longer qualifies cannot be used. Otherwise, as written he can never change out a focus for which he's specialised* (unless he has multiple Focus feats and can 'juggle' the specialisations on top) I'd also up it to a one-day process. Name me another class which can swap out feats at will, and I'll admit that an hour might be OK. Until then, no way.

*If he has no other Focus, he can't change the Specialisation, and if he has Specialisation, as written he's unable to swap the Focus to a different weapon because it'd invalidate the Spec.

Advanced Arts of War:

Overcome Limitation: Reach (Ex) – the Fighter trains to attack while positioning, lunge, and fight in close quarters. As a swift action, the Fighter may increase his reach by 5 feet for one round. A Fighter wielding a reach weapon may also take an immediate action to decrease his reach, allowing him to threaten as though he were not wielding a reach weapon. Apply a -2 penalty to armor class when reaching the extra 5 feet, and you're cooking with gas.

Charging Pounce (Ex) – the Fighter may make a full attack on a charge. If he has the ability to transfer the to-hit penalty from Power Attack to his AC, he may not use it with Charging Pounce. No particular issues.

Overcome Obstacle: Distance (Ex) – the Fighter may charge greater distances, moving up to four times his speed on a charge rather than up to two. He may not make a full attack on a charge taking him farther than two times his speed, even if he has the ability to do so (such as from the Charging Pounce Art of War or the Psionic Lion’s Charge power). Doubling the charge seems a bit overmuch, especially for a character who may be limited to a 4X run action let alone a charge. Reduce this to triple instead of 4 times and it looks good.

Tactical Awareness (Ex) – the Fighter learns to be aware of the precise details of the battlefield positions of those around him, gaining the ability to pinpoint the unseen. He gains Blindesense 50’ when in combat, which becomes Blindsight 50’ at level 15; however, any creature that has taken no actions on its last round can not be detected by this Blindsense or Blindsight. 50 feet may be too far; most classes who get a version of blindsense or blindsight receive between 10 and 30 feet. Reduce this to 30 feet for both abilities and it's fine. Not to mention that it lends itself wonderfully to "I cast Darkness on the fighter." Is it disrupted by deafness or other effects? What about move silently checks?

Heart of Battle (Ex) – the Fighter is hardened against the horror and din of battle and the debilitating effects of spells. He becomes Sickened instead of Nauseated, Shaken instead of Frightened, Frightened instead of Panicked, Stunned instead of Paralyzed, Dazed instead of Stunned or Cowering, Staggered instead of Dazed, Fatigued instead of Exhausted, Ability Damaged instead of Ability Drained, and Fascinated instead of Confused. If something would normally inflict the Shaken, Dazed, Fatigued, or Sickened conditions on him, the Fighter remains unaffected. The last sentence needs to replace "dazed" with "staggered." Further, while this makes sense, it also makes sense that a determined enough onslaught will overcome his resistance. Perhaps limit it to reducing only one effect currently applied to the fighter, or one from each foe.

Tactical Reflexes (Ex) – the Fighter knows when to strike, lightning-fast, at a sudden opening; as an immediate action, he may take an attack action, even when it is not his turn. Asiago.

Spell-Shattering Strike (Su) – the Fighter has fought wizards and learned the power of their spells—and how to combat it. When wielding a magic weapon, he may forego the damage on any attack he makes to strip away a spell currently in effect on the target; if he succeeds on an opposed caster level check, substituting his base attack bonus for his caster level (normally 0), he may dispel a single spell currently in effect on his target. If the fighter is wielding a weapon made of Cold Iron, he receives a +5 circumstance bonus on this check. At level 15, he may also make a single attack as a standard action, ignoring bonuses to AC from spells, and if it hits, he may attempt to dispel all spells currently on the target instead of doing damage; to do this, he must succeed on a check of 1d20+class level+5 opposed by a caster level check from the caster of the spell for each spell in effect on his target. The first half of this is beautiful. The second half is pure cambozola. Cold Iron should only apply a +4 to the check, and the full-dispel option (especially ignoring as it does spell-based armor bonuses) is far too strong.

Willful Resistance (Ex) – the Fighter is a disciplined warrior who can use that discipline to batter through spells or effects that might harm them. As an immediate action, the Fighter can replace a single saving through with a concentration check. Re-write: One time per combat, as an immediate action, the fighter may opt to roll a concentration check in place of any required Will save.

Basic Mastery: the Fighter may select three Arts of War from the Simple Arts of War list. I'd eliminate this completely; even at 2:1 it's riddled with gouda. Especially seeing as how I'm advocating weakening them to the point they're not much more powerful than a good feat. Three feats for the price of one? No-brainer, which makes it unbalanced.



Complex Arts of War:

Shattering Blow (Ex) – by focusing and making a single strike rather than several, the Fighter may inflict a devastating blow. As a full-round action, he may make a single attack that ignores the DR and hardness of its target and deals +10d6 damage. Scale this. 1d6 per two class levels works for me.

Seize the Initiative (Ex) – even if initially surprised, the Fighter can react faster than almost anyone else. As a swift action, the fighter gains a competence bonus to initiative equal to his class level; this may change the fighter's position in the initiative order from the next round on. This isn't too bad; and the fact it's a named bonus means it can't self-stack and result in foolishness. "I'm going on an initiative of 231!"

Overcome Limitation: Size Difference (Ex) – the Fighter has learned complex techniques that allow him to match strengths with or topple even enormous beasts. Any creature making an opposed check against the Fighter does not get to add any size bonuses to its roll. Additionally, the fighter may attempt to grapple creatures up to three size categories larger, instead of just one. Reduce this to two sizes larger for grapples, and treat the fighter as one or two sizes larger (maximum size equal to target) for the purpose of bonus calculations. Good idea, just a little overblown as written.

Overcome Obstacle: Bindings (Su) – the Fighter is capable of focusing his will and brushing aside anything holding him back. As a standard action, the Fighter may grant himself a Freedom of Movement (as per the spell) effect that lasts for a number of rounds equal to the fighter’s class level. I'd make this a full round action (triggering attacks of opportunity) which lasts for 1 round for each point of constitution (or, arguably, strength) bonus.

Mind of Battle (Ex) – the Fighter is an excellent judge of his own skill, and capable of continuously excellent performance. As an immediate action, the Fighter may “take 15” on any one attack roll, opposed check, or saving throw while in combat. I'd tend to reduce this to taking 10 instead, but I suppose if it's balanced against content in the Tome of Brie how can I argue?

Tactical Positioning (Ex) – the Fighter has learned how to position himself while fighting; with each successful attack he makes, he may take a free five-foot step that does not count against his limit of one five-foot step per round. No way. Allow him to take his 5-foot-step in the midst of a full attack action, maybe. There's no way a level 16 fighter should be able to move 40 feet and make a full attack though.

Spell-Parrying Steel (Su) – the Fighter has dealt with enough spellcasters to learn to react to their spells—and send them hurtling back. When the figher is the target of a ranged touch attack with a spell or spell-like ability and is wielding a magic weapon, he may, as an immediate action, make an attack roll (with a +5 circumstance bonus if the weapon he is parrying with is made of Cold Iron) versus a DC of 10+the spell’s caster level+the spellcaster’s casting ability modifier. If he succeeds, he must make a ranged touch attack against another target in reach of the spell of the spell with a –5 circumstance penalty; if he succeeds, the spell affects the fighter's new target, who must make their saving throw, if there is one, as normal. This is way too much. Allow the fighter to reserve any number of his normal attacks with a magic weapon and THEN use them to parry a spell, but not an unrestricted immediate action. It should also indicate that (presumably) if the ranged touch fails, the spell blasts off into the aether with no effect.

Lightning Reactions (Ex) – the Fighter is a master of combat, capable of doing more things faster than other people. He may take an additional swift or immediate action each round, rather than the one he could normally.
Advanced Mastery – the Fighter may select two Arts of War from the Advanced Arts of War list. Swift action, no problem. This shouldn't allow additional immediates though; can't let anyone, fighters included, take too many actions on other people's turns.



Peerless Arts of War:

Peerless Reactions (Ex), prerequisites Lightning Reactions and Tactical Reflexes – the Fighter can out-think and out-react any opponent. He gains yet another additional swift or immediate action, now able to take three in a round rather than the one he could normally. Per my comment above, this should increase things to 3 total but retain the limit of one immediate action.

Peerless Awareness (Ex), prerequisites Seize the Initiative and Tactical Awareness – the Fighter has developed an awareness of the so perfect it borders on the supernatural. The Fighter now always adds a competence bonus equal to his one-half class level to his initiative checks. Additionally, he cannot be surprised. Given the similarity in name, this should probably also increase by 10 feet the sight mods granted by Tactical Awareness.

Soul of Battle (Su), prerequisites Heart of Battle and Mind of Battle – the Fighter is a master of battle, his force of will making his body far tougher than it seems. He automatically suceeds on saves vs. massive damage, does not fail saving throws on a natural 1, is immune to critical hits, [Death] spells and negative levels, and may reroll one attack roll per round. Woo, this is way too much parmesan for me. Automatic success on massive damage, no problem. Immune to crits? Not a prayer. That invalidates far too broad a weapon range, since that's part of their balance. I'd remove the immunities to death and negative energy, give him auto-success on any death/negative energy abilities granting a saving throw, and give him a save on negative energy effects which ordinarily don't grant a save in advance. Re-rolling an attack should be taken out. Way too powerful. Per day, maybe. Per round? Are you mental?! :)

Spell-Destroying Steel (Su), prerequisites Spell-Shattering Strike and Spell-Parrying Steel – the Fighter has trained long and hard to be able to combat mages; when using Spell-Parrying Steel, he may also reflect spells that target him (but not area-of-effect spells such as Fireball) even if they don’t involve a ranged touch attack. Additionally, he may, as an immediate action, cause any spell or spell-like ability producing a force effect to fail, unless the caster succeeds on a caster level check, DC 10+the fighter's level (+5 more if the fighter is wielding a weapon made of cold iron). Stipulate that he can only cancel a force effect if he'd be its target or in its area of effect (or, for a Wall or similar, if it's within threatened space) and this looks pretty good.

Peerless Tactics (Ex), prerequisites Tactical Reflexes, Lightning Reactions – the Fighter can maneuver the course of an entire battle, gaining an unseen but present advantage; as a result, he can spend an immediate action to make a full attack once every five rounds. Not a chance, stilton-fingers. Allow him the ability to effectively Haste himself a number of times per day equal to his dex modifier (and with a 10 round duration), maybe. This is far too much.

Whew... lot of cheese in there, but there's some pretty tasty looking meat too. I suspect you've played a few games too many where wizard cheese goes unopposed and this is more a reaction than necessarily a strict balance concept. I'd consider your structure, with my modifications, to be fairly comparable to the standard fighter bonus feat progressions at this point, but if both are granted the class is still overpowered. :smallbiggrin:

[Cybren]

You... you really know your food, don't you?
Also.. it's "asiago". C's tend to be "ch" sounds in italian.

[fangthane]

You... you really know your food, don't you?
Also.. it's "asiago". C's tend to be "ch" sounds in italian.
Heheh... I know my cheeses... I love my cheeses... No, not that way.

And I really should've remembered that asiago is a bit of an odd one for spelling, but I forgot... :smallredface:

[Bears With Lasers]

Overcome Limitation is beyond ridiculous. It gives you an improved version of Powerful Build, which is already overpowered,
Powerful Build isn't overpowered. Overcome Limitation: Size is worse than powerful build.


I really think these should just be feats with prerequisites of FTR levels. As it stands, it may offer power but it ruins the entire fun and coolness of the fighter class: the customization and access to feats.Um, this is in addition to the bonus feats. It's also pretty customizeable (pick three Arts of each level, out of a bunch). Making them feats with Fighter level prerequisites would, for example, let the Warblade get them, let the Heroics spell get them, etc.


(Yes, and ToB is a ludicrous, heavily overpowered book that I never allow use of because it was dumb for a multitude of reasons, so it isn't a good judgement of whether something is or isn't overpowered.ToB is an EXCELLENT judge. The classes in ToB are closer to being able to keep up with spellcasters than regular melee types. They have abilities that scale with level. They can actually contribute to combat at high levels.
I don't know why you think Tome of Battle is overpowered. Do you just not realize what clerics, druids, wizard, et. al. can do?

***

After a lot of thought, I've decided that three immediate actions would just be too much; I'm going to remove the Peerless Art that grants the third action (or maybe the Complex one, and have the Peerless art grant two). I'll look over the long, detailed comment that thinks it's cheesy later. ;)

[Cybren]

I also don't see what's too innapropriate about battle learning:magic. Spellcraft=knowing what spell the bad guy is casting=being able to take appropriate action

[erewhon]

fangthane has a LOT of good input. This stuff is TEH AWESOME, by the way. :)

This would need some playtesting, let's hope Emperor Tippy can get some scenario time on this. Failing that, or in addition, I may get a few of my players to gen up three variants of this and do PVE arena's against their existing Epic toons, see how it goes.


This is good stuff. In general, I disagree with the extra skillpoints: buy some Int. And adding in some "this causes you to take this penalty to get the goody" and scaling and you're cooking with gas.

I LOVE the extra 10d6 power, btw. :D Seems like a lot, until you realize you're probably not even doubling how hard you're hitting.

Man, fighters do SO much damage already, and this nicely addresses Defense, Movement, and Senses. Not so much Social, but hey, they aren't perfect. :D

As a thought exercise, what paths would people take through the stuff as written? I have a strong preference, but would be interested to see what other folks have.

The biggest downside is, this makes genning up a fighter even MORE work. :D

[Bears With Lasers]

My apologies in advance; I'm probably going to deeply offend you. :)
Unlikely. :P


Please enumerate these problems, and be specific; I've played near-epic fighters and not noticed a particular problem (though, granted, that may be due to quality DMs who tailor things to the party's capabilities)I can't discuss your game, not having been in it, of course, but in general, look at a Fighter's capabilities compared to a Balor's, a Great Wyrm's, a Titan's, et cetera. The fighter lacks mobility and tactical options--he can hit something, try to trip it, or move and do the former. That's it. Magical items help compensate, but don't do so entirely. Getting a full attack on a highly mobile dragon or balor can be nearly impossible, and you don't have many other options. If you do get one, the dragon's full attack will do more damage to you than you will to it, and so on. Additionally, fighters have enormous, gaping weaknesses in the form of a terrible will save that one needs to invest very heavily in to shore up so one can make the saves half the time, and few of the great defenses that magic provides. Fighters just can't get there, can't stay there if they do get there, and can't always compete when they *do* get there and stay there--plus, they're terribly vulnerable.


Fighters who desire more skill points can put a higher ability score in intelligence. Period. Sorry, but I don't see any justification for increased skills.Justification--it's always wanted, the INT bonus would still be helpful, and it's certainly not going to break anything.


Epic's going to get messy, methinks. A clarification though; this is instead of feats, or in addition to the fighter bonus feats every two levels? If it's in addition, I have one word for it. Gruyere. If this is typical of ToB builds, I'm glad I don't have it.In addition to the feats. ToB isn't exactly like this; it has "maneuvers" (which resemble spells in many ways, but involve combat benefits and melee attacks; there are 9 levels of them, you can get maneuvers of level X with an Initiator Level of 2X-1, as with spells) that you can know and then ready, each readied maneuver useable once before you have to recover it; Crusaders have a randomized but instant recovery mechanism, Warblades use a swift action to recover theirs (and can't use one the turn they recover it). However, they have both swift/immediate and standard/full-round action maneuvers, plus "stances" which are active constantly (changing between stances takes a swift action). Maneuvers are less powerful and more limited than spells, but help provide defense and functionality (for example, an 8th-level stance lets you air walk; a 2nd, 5th, and 7th or 8th level maneuver let you teleport 50' as a standard, move, and swift action, respectively; a 3rd-level maneuver lets you make a 6d6 fire damage ranged touch attack; a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level maneuver let you replace a saving throw (will, reflex, and fort, respectively) with a concentration check as an immediate action; Crusaders get access to the Devoted Spirit discipline, which lets them cure themselves in battle; et cetera. It's a very good book.

Epic... Epic's got its own problems. Yes, it's messy, and I'm not about to try to make the fighter balanced for epic levels, since there pretty much is no balance at beyond-low-epic levels.


Expert Flanker (Ex): if the Fighter and an ally are both adjacent to a creature, they are considered to be flanking it. As well, both receive a +4 to-hit bonus to hit when flanking a creature, rather than a +2. This is overpowered. Either allow the fighter a +4 when he's flanking (i.e. Vexing Flanker), or allow the flank so long as both are adjacent (i.e. similar in effect to Adaptable Flanker), not both. See PHB2 for details.Point, and the +2 to hit increase doesn't really need to be there. I'll nix it.


Disciplined Will (Ex) – the Fighter battles mental influences fiercely; when he fails a saving throw against a mind-affecting spell or effect, the effect is delayed by a round—it does not apply until the same point during the following round. This does not count against the effect’s duration. Here's where I'd beef things a touch. I'd state that if the save was failed by less than 2, the fighter may re-roll next round and that only after a double-fail, the spell immediately takes effect. Otherwise, he still gets the round's grace but ultimately succombs anyhow.Hmm. Maybe, but since this is one of the constant abilities and isn't balanced by the limited-immediate-actions factor, I'd rather not make it too good. This lets the fighter yell to the mage to slap a Protection from Evil on him; "fails his save by less than 2" is a strange/random number, also.


Battle Learning: Magic (Ex) – the Fighter studies spellcasting enemies, allies, or both. He adds half his class levels, rounded up, as a competence bonus on Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana checks. Additionally, he may buy Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana ranks at a 1:1 ratio, although the maximum skill cap for cross-class skills remains. No. Just, no. Makes no sense for a fighter, whatsoever.Um. Sure it does. He travels with a wizard/sorcerer. He fights wizards/sorcerers. So he learns to identify spells being cast, magical creatures, et cetera. Maybe I should put a "only when it comes to spells being cast" limitation to the bonus, but other than that, I think it makes perfect sense.


Battle Learning: Alertness (Ex) – the Fighter trains to hear and notice things others might overlook. He adds half his class levels, rounded up, as a competence bonus on Spot and Listen checks. Additionally, he may buy Spot and Listen ranks at a 1:1 ratio, although the maximum skill cap for cross-class skills remains. I'd limit this; it's more justifiable than spellcraft but I'd limit the class-level bonus to a maximum of +5, as well as making that bonus only effective in combat (i.e. he's no more likely to notice the bard smirking at his lack of rhythm, but he IS more likely to notice the rogue sneaking around for a flank, or the reduced damage dealt to an iron golem due to DR.)As he develops his senses and learns to pay attention, he gets better at it, and this carries over. This just isn't good enough to warrant such a limitation, IMO.


Battle Learning: Acrobatics (Ex) – the Fighter trains to perform feats of acrobatics and mobility in battle and other situations while armored. His armor check penalty does not apply to his Jump, Balance, Tumble, and Climb skills. You have GOT to be kidding. Half the penalty if you like (and that makes some sense), but I categorically will NOT accept a fighter pulling cartwheels penalty-free in adamantine full plate. Not gonna happen.Who said anything about cartwheels? You're free to fluff his tumble as positoning himself so blows bounce off his armor/shield. Besides, adamantine full plate is still a -6 penalty. A fighter with, say, 14 dex and investing cross-class ranks can do this anyway.


Weapon Aptitude (Ex) I'd re-word this. He can change his prerequisites but if he does, any feats he possesses for which he no longer qualifies cannot be used. Otherwise, as written he can never change out a focus for which he's specialised* (unless he has multiple Focus feats and can 'juggle' the specialisations on top) I'd also up it to a one-day process. Name me another class which can swap out feats at will, and I'll admit that an hour might be OK. Until then, no way.

*If he has no other Focus, he can't change the Specialisation, and if he has Specialisation, as written he's unable to swap the Focus to a different weapon because it'd invalidate the Spec.
This is yoinked directly from the Warblade class from Tome of Battle; a lot of people felt it should be a fighter ability too, and I figured that it's not overpowering. The Fighter can switch the Focus and Specialization together.



Overcome Limitation: Reach (Ex) – the Fighter trains to attack while positioning, lunge, and fight in close quarters. As a swift action, the Fighter may increase his reach by 5 feet for one round. A Fighter wielding a reach weapon may also take an immediate action to decrease his reach, allowing him to threaten as though he were not wielding a reach weapon. Apply a -2 penalty to armor class when reaching the extra 5 feet, and you're cooking with gas.I don't see the need for the penalty; it's pretty much unnecessary. Adding a little reach helps the fighter hold his own against, say, bigger opponents with Awesome Blow.


Overcome Obstacle: Distance (Ex) – the Fighter may charge greater distances, moving up to four times his speed on a charge rather than up to two. He may not make a full attack on a charge taking him farther than two times his speed, even if he has the ability to do so (such as from the Charging Pounce Art of War or the Psionic Lion’s Charge power). Doubling the charge seems a bit overmuch, especially for a character who may be limited to a 4X run action let alone a charge. Reduce this to triple instead of 4 times and it looks good.3x was what this was originally, but I didn't think that that would be enough mobility, basically. Haste and such should make it enough, though; I'll porbably switch it back to 3x.


Tactical Awareness (Ex) – the Fighter learns to be aware of the precise details of the battlefield positions of those around him, gaining the ability to pinpoint the unseen. He gains Blindesense 50’ when in combat, which becomes Blindsight 50’ at level 15; however, any creature that has taken no actions on its last round can not be detected by this Blindsense or Blindsight. 50 feet may be too far; most classes who get a version of blindsense or blindsight receive between 10 and 30 feet. Reduce this to 30 feet for both abilities and it's fine. Not to mention that it lends itself wonderfully to "I cast Darkness on the fighter." Is it disrupted by deafness or other effects? What about move silently checks?
Blindness/deafness putting a crimp in this is a good idea. 30' is a bit short, maybe, but I'll think about it.


Heart of Battle (Ex)
The last sentence needs to replace "dazed" with "staggered." Further, while this makes sense, it also makes sense that a determined enough onslaught will overcome his resistance. Perhaps limit it to reducing only one effect currently applied to the fighter, or one from each foe.You're right, staggered, not dazed--and while it makes sense to limit it, only one is too limiting. I might go with 1+CHA mod or 3+CHA mod.


Tactical Reflexes (Ex) – the Fighter knows when to strike, lightning-fast, at a sudden opening; as an immediate action, he may take an attack action, even when it is not his turn. Asiago.Not really. It's an extra attack, that can be used to interrupt things. The PHB II has immediate-action spells that do this, and this can be one of the fighter's higher-level shticks (I'm going to remove the "two immediate actions", making the one that granted three grant two instead--if I keep the "two immediates" Peerless, this one will become a Complex Art).


Spell-Shattering Strike (Su)
The first half of this is beautiful. The second half is pure cambozola. Cold Iron should only apply a +4 to the check, and the full-dispel option (especially ignoring as it does spell-based armor bonuses) is far too strong. Why +4 not +5? Not a big difference. The full-dispel option is very strong, but it's meant to be--consider that to use it, a fighter actually has to get close and then give up his attack (a dispelled caster can still get away). Hmm, I think that it could/should be toned down by making it a full attack action rather than a standard action. It also doesn't need to ignore spell-based AC bonuses, because I now recall there's a feat for that in the Complete Arcane.


Willful Resistance (Ex) – the Fighter is a disciplined warrior who can use that discipline to batter through spells or effects that might harm them. As an immediate action, the Fighter can replace a single saving through with a concentration check. Re-write: One time per combat, as an immediate action, the fighter may opt to roll a concentration check in place of any required Will save.
Once/combat is too limiting, and just a will save is also too limiting, IMO. There are Tome of Battle maneuvers that do this, and they can be refreshed to be used more than once/combat. Furthermore, two saves in a round will mean that you can only use this on one of them, and only if you haven't used any of the other immediate-action abilities.


Basic Mastery: the Fighter may select three Arts of War from the Simple Arts of War list. I'd eliminate this completely; even at 2:1 it's riddled with gouda. Especially seeing as how I'm advocating weakening them to the point they're not much more powerful than a good feat. Three feats for the price of one? No-brainer, which makes it unbalanced.
Really? Even at 3:1, I wouldn't take it. Keep in mind that "Good feats" involves stuff like Karmic Strike, Stand Still, Weapon Supremacy, Elusive Target, Steadfast Determination, Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, and the like. Also, that feats don't really scale with level, as these abilities do.
Basically, the Simple Arts are significantly enough weaker than the Advanced Arts that I wouldn't say that snagging three of them is optimal, but someone may want to do it.



Shattering Blow (Ex) – by focusing and making a single strike rather than several, the Fighter may inflict a devastating blow. As a full-round action, he may make a single attack that ignores the DR and hardness of its target and deals +10d6 damage. Scale this. 1d6 per two class levels works for me.Scaling might be a good idea, but I'd like it to start at +10d6 so it's good (10d6 is only 35 damage, on a single hit). Maybe 9d6 +1d6 for each even class levels past 9, or something.


Seize the Initiative (Ex) – even if initially surprised, the Fighter can react faster than almost anyone else. As a swift action, the fighter gains a competence bonus to initiative equal to his class level; this may change the fighter's position in the initiative order from the next round on. This isn't too bad; and the fact it's a named bonus means it can't self-stack and result in foolishness. "I'm going on an initiative of 231!"It's also a seventh-level maneuver from Tome of Battle (they get an Insight bonus, but I didn't feel Insight was particularily fighter-appropriate).


Overcome Limitation: Size Difference (Ex) – the Fighter has learned complex techniques that allow him to match strengths with or topple even enormous beasts. Any creature making an opposed check against the Fighter does not get to add any size bonuses to its roll. Additionally, the fighter may attempt to grapple creatures up to three size categories larger, instead of just one. Reduce this to two sizes larger for grapples, and treat the fighter as one or two sizes larger (maximum size equal to target) for the purpose of bonus calculations. Good idea, just a little overblown as written.Grappling is weak enough (I meant to write a "defeat-freedom-of-movement" ability, but forgot) that it needs all the help it can get--and big creatures get a very large STR boost that this feat doesn't negate.


Overcome Obstacle: Bindings (Su) – the Fighter is capable of focusing his will and brushing aside anything holding him back. As a standard action, the Fighter may grant himself a Freedom of Movement (as per the spell) effect that lasts for a number of rounds equal to the fighter’s class level. I'd make this a full round action (triggering attacks of opportunity) which lasts for 1 round for each point of constitution (or, arguably, strength) bonus.
Eh, considering that Freedom of Movement can be cast as a standard action, AND is availible continuously in 40k gp ring form, I don't think this needs the action increase (this way the fighter can activate it and still move up to meet the enemy) or the duration nerf.


Mind of Battle (Ex) – the Fighter is an excellent judge of his own skill, and capable of continuously excellent performance. As an immediate action, the Fighter may “take 15” on any one attack roll, opposed check, or saving throw while in combat. I'd tend to reduce this to taking 10 instead, but I suppose if it's balanced against content in the Tome of Brie how can I argue?
Expending psionic focus on a concentration check would let you take 15 when combined with the ToB Concentration-check-save maneuvers; Weapon Supremacy lets you "take 10" on an attack.


Tactical Positioning (Ex) – the Fighter has learned how to position himself while fighting; with each successful attack he makes, he may take a free five-foot step that does not count against his limit of one five-foot step per round. No way. Allow him to take his 5-foot-step in the midst of a full attack action, maybe. There's no way a level 16 fighter should be able to move 40 feet and make a full attack though.
This is an 8th-level Stance in Tome of Battle, so I'm fine with just yoinking it as is. Plus, I feel it's fine: he'd need to hit with seven attacks to move 40 feet, and those 5' steps could move him out of range of an opponent before he lands the attacks. Basically, this addresses the fighter's mobility problem by letting him move around the battlefield, to a limited extent, but still contribute to the fight.


Spell-Parrying Steel (Su) – This is way too much. Allow the fighter to reserve any number of his normal attacks with a magic weapon and THEN use them to parry a spell, but not an unrestricted immediate action. It should also indicate that (presumably) if the ranged touch fails, the spell blasts off into the aether with no effect.
It's a toned-down version of epic monk abilities (with two feats, they can deflect as many as they want to, with no save or check). I don't think it's too much, since there's still dozens of things spellcasters can do to fighters. Parrying a spell uses up that precious immediate action, which you might have already used (even if you have two of) to make a concentration check instead of a save and an immediate-action attack


Lightning Reactions (Ex) – the Fighter is a master of combat, capable of doing more things faster than other people. He may take an additional swift or immediate action each round, rather than the one he could normally.
Advanced Mastery – the Fighter may select two Arts of War from the Advanced Arts of War list. Swift action, no problem. This shouldn't allow additional immediates though; can't let anyone, fighters included, take too many actions on other people's turns.
I think it'd be fine to let fighters do it. With these abilities, three total is too much, though. I'm going to tone it down to just one "extra immediate action" Art--not sure whether to make it Complex or Peerless (i.e. eliminate the Complex one or the Peerless one).



Peerless Awareness (Ex), prerequisites Seize the Initiative and Tactical Awareness – the Fighter has developed an awareness of the so perfect it borders on the supernatural. The Fighter now always adds a competence bonus equal to his one-half class level to his initiative checks. Additionally, he cannot be surprised. Given the similarity in name, this should probably also increase by 10 feet the sight mods granted by Tactical Awareness.
Good idea--up it from 30' to 50' or 60', maybe (there's a 4th-level spell that grants 60' blindsight for minutes/level in the SpC).


Soul of Battle (Su), prerequisites Heart of Battle and Mind of Battle – the Fighter is a master of battle, his force of will making his body far tougher than it seems. He automatically suceeds on saves vs. massive damage, does not fail saving throws on a natural 1, is immune to critical hits, [Death] spells and negative levels, and may reroll one attack roll per round. Woo, this is way too much parmesan for me. Automatic success on massive damage, no problem. Immune to crits? Not a prayer. That invalidates far too broad a weapon range, since that's part of their balance. I'd remove the immunities to death and negative energy, give him auto-success on any death/negative energy abilities granting a saving throw, and give him a save on negative energy effects which ordinarily don't grant a save in advance. Re-rolling an attack should be taken out. Way too powerful. Per day, maybe. Per round? Are you mental?! :)
Rerolling an attack is maybe a little too much to add to the reset, but immunity to crits is just a +5 armor ability, availible for 36k with +1 Heavy Fortification buckler. Similarily, immunity to [Death] effects, negative levels, and more (it also includes ability drain) is a +4 armor ability, Soulfire from the Book of Exalted Deeds. This helps mitigate the Fighter's equipment reliance.


Spell-Destroying Steel (Su), prerequisites Spell-Shattering Strike and Spell-Parrying Steel – the Fighter has trained long and hard to be able to combat mages; when using Spell-Parrying Steel, he may also reflect spells that target him (but not area-of-effect spells such as Fireball) even if they don’t involve a ranged touch attack. Additionally, he may, as an immediate action, cause any spell or spell-like ability producing a force effect to fail, unless the caster succeeds on a caster level check, DC 10+the fighter's level (+5 more if the fighter is wielding a weapon made of cold iron). Stipulate that he can only cancel a force effect if he'd be its target or in its area of effect (or, for a Wall or similar, if it's within threatened space) and this looks pretty good.I need to define an area in which he can do this, yeah. Maybe within range of one move action, and he gives up his move action the next round to do it if he has to move to do it.


Peerless Tactics (Ex), prerequisites Tactical Reflexes, Lightning Reactions – the Fighter can maneuver the course of an entire battle, gaining an unseen but present advantage; as a result, he can spend an immediate action to make a full attack once every five rounds. Not a chance, stilton-fingers. Allow him the ability to effectively Haste himself a number of times per day equal to his dex modifier (and with a 10 round duration), maybe. This is far too much.
"Haste himself" is WAY too weak for the level 20 ability of a class. This is exactly the kind of tactical superiority that makes for a good capstone ability for a Fighter. It also happens to be the same as the 10th-level ability of the Eternal Blade prestige class from Tome of Battle (which can't be entered before level 11, so gets it at level 20).
I should probably make it "once per encounter" rather than "once per five rounds", but it's pretty much the same thing, since high-level combat rarely *lasts* five rounds.


Whew... lot of cheese in there, but there's some pretty tasty looking meat too. I suspect you've played a few games too many where wizard cheese goes unopposed and this is more a reaction than necessarily a strict balance concept. I'd consider your structure, with my modifications, to be fairly comparable to the standard fighter bonus feat progressions at this point, but if both are granted the class is still overpowered. Overpowered compared to, say, the lowly Paladin or Barbarian? Certainly, and justifiably so. Melee classes are very weak, as is. Overpowered compared to even second-tier classes like the Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, Wu Jen, the Tome of Battle classes? Not a chance.

Anyone who uses this can feel free to take out whatever they think is cheesy, but this is how I'd do it. If you think adding the feats to this is too much, reduce how often the Fighter gets them (to the Psychic Warrior's progression, say).

[Bears With Lasers]

And now, here's some questions for people:

Are there any abilities you think would make good additions to the list? I thought about adding specific things to help TWFing and Sword-And-Board fighters, but I wanted to deal with a Generic Fighter first; what kind of Simple/Complex/Advanced Arts would you suggest for that? How about an Art that lets grapplers, say, take a -X penalty to ignore the Freedom of Movement spell on their target? How big should -X be?

I intentionally didn't address social stuff because I thought it would break the Fighter's flavor; Flight would have been very useful, but flying or air-walking would also defeat the Fighter's flavor entirely.

So, what's missing? Any suggestions for Arts covering things not covered here? How about for a Peerless art to replace the "third immediate action", if I leave that a Complex art?

[Fizban]

I'd suggest more sword and board, maybe a line granting increasing concealment when using a shield, or one that allows stronger power attacks with one hand (maybe at 3/2 ratio, like it was originally intended).

[erewhon]

And now, here's some questions for people:

First, your responses to the critique above are spot on. Keep on truckin'. :)



Are there any abilities you think would make good additions to the list?

Bonuses to foot speed at Simple and up. +10, +20, +30, all stackable. If you're really feeling wacky, allow half the bonus to apply to Swim speed as well. Max is +60 feet.

The ability to take one of these tricks to increase a stat, at Simple. Yes, it's huge. If it really bothers you, limit it to only Str, Dex, or Con. Max is +5 to any one stat.

A series of bonuses to break stuff, such as +3, +5, +7, stacking, starting at Simple. Max is +15 to overcome Break DC's.

A Simple ability to add +1 to any save. Give a +3 and a +5 version higher up, but make it non-stacking. (Might be too much, but heck, Paladins are even better than this.)

Can you see my thrust to thicken up the lower ranks? :)

More important, I think it's important to emphasize the robust physicality of the Fighter class, especially since you're leaving them in the lurch on their poor Social skills. :)

Also, if this turns out as nice as I think it might, we should turn our attention to the poor Legendary Dreadnought PrC, which so deeply, desperatly needs a rewrite. :)




I thought about adding specific things to help TWFing and Sword-And-Board fighters, but I wanted to deal with a Generic Fighter first; what kind of Simple/Complex/Advanced Arts would you suggest for that?

Simple, make a series that eliminates their penalities for using both hands. Ambidexterity, as it were. :) Maybe reduce the penalties by -3 at Simple, -5 at Complex, and no penalty at all at Advanced. For a new Peerless, make an art that lets them treat any weapon or shield as one size smaller as long as they're using both hands. NO oversized weapons, unless they also invest in feats.



How about an Art that lets grapplers, say, take a -X penalty to ignore the Freedom of Movement spell on their target? How big should -X be?

Whoof. That is rather huge. -10?



I intentionally didn't address social stuff because I thought it would break the Fighter's flavor;

Spoilsport! :)


Flight would have been very useful, but flying or air-walking would also defeat the Fighter's flavor entirely.

I agree. At least natively. Winged boots, on the other hand? :) Given the bonus to move arts I suggest above, perhaps add a new Peerless Art that allows that bonus to be applied to any movement mode the Fighter wishes and he currently has. Yes, the Fighter flies faster than you do, even with the same spell cast on him. Dangit! :)



So, what's missing? Any suggestions for Arts covering things not covered here? How about for a Peerless art to replace the "third immediate action", if I leave that a Complex art?


See above. :) Isn't this fun? :D

[PhoeKun]

If you're going to add a line of abilities for the sword & board style of combat (and you should - it needs help), I'd reccomend things like lowering (perhaps even negating) the penalties for fighting defensively, like an extension of Active Sheild Defense.

The ability to use your shield to create blind spots in your opponent's defense would also be useful. I'm not really sure how best to represent this, but one could make the argument that a successful check could set up a Fighter to make a coup de grace. That would certainly put a bit of offensive bite in shield builds...

[fangthane]

Unlikely. :P

I can't discuss your game, not having been in it, of course, but in general, look at a Fighter's capabilities compared to a Balor's, a Great Wyrm's, a Titan's, et cetera. The fighter lacks mobility and tactical options--he can hit something, try to trip it, or move and do the former. That's it. Magical items help compensate, but don't do so entirely. Getting a full attack on a highly mobile dragon or balor can be nearly impossible, and you don't have many other options. If you do get one, the dragon's full attack will do more damage to you than you will to it, and so on.
I don't know, I just don't see a lot of weakness there; those are foes which are difficult for any individual to stand against, if you look at them one-on-one. Granted the wizard has the ability to cast some immunities, which helps a lot, and in some cases is able to deal much more effectively with particular foes - but he's got crap spot checks and anything he doesn't see can kill him. That same something is likely to hurt but not kill a fighter. And a properly played fighter, with advanced knowledge of foes (as provided by a friendly caster) can prepare quite effectively for a fight against something like a dragon or Balor. Fly's a potion, you can teleport by rubbing your hat, and with the right gear you can make yourself virtually immune to most of a given opponent's attacks. Granted it's tough to work re-equipping, so mostly it's contingent on the DM to provide challenges appropriate to the party's strengths and weaknesses.

Additionally, fighters have enormous, gaping weaknesses in the form of a terrible will save that one needs to invest very heavily in to shore up so one can make the saves half the time, and few of the great defenses that magic provides. Fighters just can't get there, can't stay there if they do get there, and can't always compete when they *do* get there and stay there--plus, they're terribly vulnerable.
I definitely agree on the will save; as levels increase, differentials between "good" and "bad" saves increase to the extent that some saves, easy for specific classes, become nigh-impossible for others without substantial assistance. I don't think fighters really need a boost to reflex since they can generally suck up a lot of D6 damage, but will is seriously weak at high levels. A bard helps, but only with specific will saves; and after a pair of horrid wiltings, you're Dominated.


Justification--it's always wanted, the INT bonus would still be helpful, and it's certainly not going to break anything.
I don't know; one of the things I've always liked about fighters is that the skill aspect tends to give Int more weight as a stat; with 2 extra skills per level, it's that much less worthwhile. Still necessary for Expertise and such, but not the draw it should be.


In addition to the feats. ToB isn't exactly like this; it has "maneuvers" (which resemble spells in many ways, but involve combat benefits and melee attacks; there are 9 levels of them, you can get maneuvers of level X with an Initiator Level of 2X-1, as with spells) that you can know and then ready, each readied maneuver useable once before you have to recover it; Crusaders have a randomized but instant recovery mechanism, Warblades use a swift action to recover theirs (and can't use one the turn they recover it). However, they have both swift/immediate and standard/full-round action maneuvers, plus "stances" which are active constantly (changing between stances takes a swift action). Maneuvers are less powerful and more limited than spells, but help provide defense and functionality (for example, an 8th-level stance lets you air walk; a 2nd, 5th, and 7th or 8th level maneuver let you teleport 50' as a standard, move, and swift action, respectively; a 3rd-level maneuver lets you make a 6d6 fire damage ranged touch attack; a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level maneuver let you replace a saving throw (will, reflex, and fort, respectively) with a concentration check as an immediate action; Crusaders get access to the Devoted Spirit discipline, which lets them cure themselves in battle; et cetera. It's a very good book.
Hmm, I'll have to see what I can see in terms of comparing their balance to what you've got here... Meantime, I'll try to be a little less incredulous with respect to ToB parallels ;)


Hmm. Maybe, but since this is one of the constant abilities and isn't balanced by the limited-immediate-actions factor, I'd rather not make it too good. This lets the fighter yell to the mage to slap a Protection from Evil on him; "fails his save by less than 2" is a strange/random number, also.

That's a good point, actually... As long as he's aware of the situation and his plight, that's a nice fit. As to the 2, that's just because usually 10% is "close" in our games; we tend to do a lot of relative and scaled description based on being "close" to an armor class or DC or what have you. Yes, it's pretty arbitrary :smallbiggrin:


Um. Sure it does. He travels with a wizard/sorcerer. He fights wizards/sorcerers. So he learns to identify spells being cast, magical creatures, et cetera. Maybe I should put a "only when it comes to spells being cast" limitation to the bonus, but other than that, I think it makes perfect sense.

As he develops his senses and learns to pay attention, he gets better at it, and this carries over. This just isn't good enough to warrant such a limitation, IMO.
See, one of the things where I have a problem with this is the fact that, for example, either of them is easily more powerful than comparable features I've seen. Stuff like Adaptive Learner (Human Paragon) and skill focus feats which are uniformly lower bonus and don't allow 1-point purchase of non-class skills. That, in addition to the flavour issue with the magic option tends to make me say what I did. Especially in combination with the increased number of skill points, which makes the purchase far less of a concern. As to the limit to +5, I just tend to dislike giving skill bonuses far in excess of what a single feat provides. Even giving it a bit of leeway as a more-powerful class feature, allowing cross-class purchase and a +5 is pretty generous.


Who said anything about cartwheels? You're free to fluff his tumble as positoning himself so blows bounce off his armor/shield. Besides, adamantine full plate is still a -6 penalty. A fighter with, say, 14 dex and investing cross-class ranks can do this anyway.
Your class feature indicated that he could jump and tumble without penalty (in addition to balance and climb) while wearing armor, meaning that he eliminates that -6 for 4 skill checks. That's overpowered, however you slice it. Have it eliminate up to 2 points of armor check penalty, so that 6 becomes 4 and 1/2 become 0, and that's relatively equable. Heck, I'd even be behind allowing an extra +1 to max dex as well; but complete elimination of the ACP isn't the answer.


This is yoinked directly from the Warblade class from Tome of Battle; a lot of people felt it should be a fighter ability too, and I figured that it's not overpowering. The Fighter can switch the Focus and Specialization together.
Heh, I stand corrected then... Still seems a bit off that weapon focus: greatsword can be swapped for weapon focus: cudgel in an hour, but if you say so... And as long as the fighter can switch them together, that solves that part of my objection. The way it reads, that's not clear but I guess that's WotC's fault, not yours ;)


I don't see the need for the penalty; it's pretty much unnecessary. Adding a little reach helps the fighter hold his own against, say, bigger opponents with Awesome Blow.
The -2 to AC is because I see this as very much similar to the off-balance effect of a charge attack; you're lunging beyond your typical, effective combat equilibrium to send your sword-tip, or even dagger, 5 feet further than would normally be possible. It seems to me that applying a paltry -2, similar to what you'd suffer if charging, is a minor balance to such a benefit. And, you know, the realism thing. :smallwink:


Blindness/deafness putting a crimp in this is a good idea. 30' is a bit short, maybe, but I'll think about it.

You're right, staggered, not dazed--and while it makes sense to limit it, only one is too limiting. I might go with 1+CHA mod or 3+CHA mod.

Sounds like a plan to me; I'm not hung up on it being just a single, and 1 or 3+cha mod sounds like a dandy compromise. It enhances differentiation (not all fighters are going to have a good cha, even with this in mind, but some will) and means that determined enough Lilliputians may have a chance of bringing down their Gulliver. Metaphorically speaking, of course.


Not really. It's an extra attack, that can be used to interrupt things. The PHB II has immediate-action spells that do this, and this can be one of the fighter's higher-level shticks (I'm going to remove the "two immediate actions", making the one that granted three grant two instead--if I keep the "two immediates" Peerless, this one will become a Complex Art).
As an immediate action, of which they get a total of one, Bards are capable of casting Celerity at level 10, if they have a high enough Charisma (18) and if it's one of the precious few spells they opt to know. When they cast it, they receive one standard action and are dazed until after their NEXT round's actions. That seems to me a little weaker than this ability, for all that they could choose to take a move action instead. And it's at a higher level. And Dazed is even worse for a caster than for a melee character. A dazed character can take no actions - which means that the caster who just let off two nukes in one round (at a cost of 3 spell slots with daily limits) has to stand there while several very angry survivors approach.


Why +4 not +5? Not a big difference. The full-dispel option is very strong, but it's meant to be--consider that to use it, a fighter actually has to get close and then give up his attack (a dispelled caster can still get away). Hmm, I think that it could/should be toned down by making it a full attack action rather than a standard action. It also doesn't need to ignore spell-based AC bonuses, because I now recall there's a feat for that in the Complete Arcane.
I just like the symmetry of the +2/+4 approach to most ability and skill (and other) checks. That's more of a personal thing though. Perhaps we can compromise on a limit to dispelling based on 3+stat effects or somesuch? :smallbiggrin: (obviously starting with the highest caster level) I think a full attack might tend to backslide into what you're trying to avoid, with the requirement of being next to the target for a full round action. Perhaps that's a trade-off which works for this ability too though. Tough call.


Once/combat is too limiting, and just a will save is also too limiting, IMO. There are Tome of Battle maneuvers that do this, and they can be refreshed to be used more than once/combat. Furthermore, two saves in a round will mean that you can only use this on one of them, and only if you haven't used any of the other immediate-action abilities.
How about putting it on a dragon breath timer? d4 or d4+1 rounds between usages would be decent. To be honest though I don't see a fighter typically needing a fort save, and reflex saves play against the fighter's superior hit points so I'm leery of giving a free pass there. Cleric's gotta do something after all, and you can't let him beat every opponent up... :)


Really? Even at 3:1, I wouldn't take it. Keep in mind that "Good feats" involves stuff like Karmic Strike, Stand Still, Weapon Supremacy, Elusive Target, Steadfast Determination, Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, and the like. Also, that feats don't really scale with level, as these abilities do.
Basically, the Simple Arts are significantly enough weaker than the Advanced Arts that I wouldn't say that snagging three of them is optimal, but someone may want to do it.
Hmm, I suppose on re-examination you do have a point as far as some of them go; I suppose a pair could be workable, though those skill ones still make me cringe. :smallwink:


Scaling might be a good idea, but I'd like it to start at +10d6 so it's good (10d6 is only 35 damage, on a single hit). Maybe 9d6 +1d6 for each even class levels past 9, or something.
I could go with that; I recognise that 10d6 isn't too impressive in one sense, but when you also consider that it beats any DR out there, doesn't succomb to SR or elemental resistances or any of the rest, it's situationally enormous. Also much more useful, situationally, for a two-weapon or sword-and-board wielder (against moderate DR). Not as much for the guy with a keen adamantine vorpal greataxe +3. Snicker snack beats hit points. So yes, definitely scale it up from a startpoint of 10 since it really won't make a huge difference at lower levels and it enables the feature to scale with the character. I'm a big, big fan of scaling; saves so much work later, if you're careful about it.


Eh, considering that Freedom of Movement can be cast as a standard action, AND is availible continuously in 40k gp ring form, I don't think this needs the action increase (this way the fighter can activate it and still move up to meet the enemy) or the duration nerf.
It just strikes me that granting all fighters permanent freedom of movement at no real cost is overboard... Any class can buy the ring, but people who can cast it are sharply limited in how many times they can do so in a day; fighters should therefore be even more so, even if it's a personal-only ability. If it lasts a short duration (I was thinking of 1 round per 2 fighter levels, but even 1:1 would work as a scaling solution - remember I love scaling hehe) and is only usable a limited number of times per day (1 per 5 levels, perhaps? or stat-related somehow, though strength would be a bit much and other stats not really appropriate)


Expending psionic focus on a concentration check would let you take 15 when combined with the ToB Concentration-check-save maneuvers; Weapon Supremacy lets you "take 10" on an attack.Hmm, not overly familiar with psionic stuff; still, as others have mentioned it's a bit overpowering to be able to calculate and guarantee multiple hits per round (with a bonus to "default" averages to boot), even if it's only a pair. It's just highly exploitable, and you know what they say about something which looks good enough it's a must-have...


This is an 8th-level Stance in Tome of Battle, so I'm fine with just yoinking it as is. Plus, I feel it's fine: he'd need to hit with seven attacks to move 40 feet, and those 5' steps could move him out of range of an opponent before he lands the attacks. Basically, this addresses the fighter's mobility problem by letting him move around the battlefield, to a limited extent, but still contribute to the fight.
I don't know, I still think I'd limit this to, say, the fighter's normal maximum single move... Like I say, it's just wrong that a guy in plate with a move of 20 can make a full two-weapon attack and end up 40 feet away with a line of corpses (yes, I'm exaggerating for dramatic effect. So sue me.):smallbiggrin:


It's a toned-down version of epic monk abilities (with two feats, they can deflect as many as they want to, with no save or check). I don't think it's too much, since there's still dozens of things spellcasters can do to fighters. Parrying a spell uses up that precious immediate action, which you might have already used (even if you have two of) to make a concentration check instead of a save and an immediate-action attack
I may regret responding without checking my ELH, but I don't recall any ability allowing them to designate a new target for a deflected spell or ability.


I think it'd be fine to let fighters do it. With these abilities, three total is too much, though. I'm going to tone it down to just one "extra immediate action" Art--not sure whether to make it Complex or Peerless (i.e. eliminate the Complex one or the Peerless one).

Good idea--up it from 30' to 50' or 60', maybe (there's a 4th-level spell that grants 60' blindsight for minutes/level in the SpC).
These seem reasonable compromises, for sure. I'd say leave it at 50 feet so the casters still have a short-term advantage, but that sounds good and preserves the sense of investment in differentiated feature tracks.


Rerolling an attack is maybe a little too much to add to the reset, but immunity to crits is just a +5 armor ability, availible for 36k with +1 Heavy Fortification buckler. Similarily, immunity to [Death] effects, negative levels, and more (it also includes ability drain) is a +4 armor ability, Soulfire from the Book of Exalted Deeds. This helps mitigate the Fighter's equipment reliance.
The trouble is, fighters are also the best suited to equip themselves with precisely that kind of gear, and the most likely to have the dispensable income (not eaten by buying wands, staves, scrolls, rods, etc etc) despite the extra expense of weaponry. This specific aspect is something where I agree with making people depend on their gear, at least for primary protection. Also bear in mind that the 36k buckler can only really be compared at a level where a +1 buckler is appropriate gear; beyond that, what fighter would honestly use an inferior enchantment on a defensive item? In any case, the effective price mounts for every plus on the AC bonus, so it's a valuable exemption which only becomes more so as the fighter progresses.


I need to define an area in which he can do this, yeah. Maybe within range of one move action, and he gives up his move action the next round to do it if he has to move to do it.
As long as it has limits and isn't more powerful than a more specific class feature already provides, and that sounds workable.


"Haste himself" is WAY too weak for the level 20 ability of a class. This is exactly the kind of tactical superiority that makes for a good capstone ability for a Fighter. It also happens to be the same as the 10th-level ability of the Eternal Blade prestige class from Tome of Battle (which can't be entered before level 11, so gets it at level 20).
Prestige classes are not base classes. They specifically give up the general capabilities of their original base in order to gain often-powerful but specialised capabilities. In combination with the potential from other abilities in this set, plus fighter feats per level, plus the advantage of being able to take class-specific abilities such as Weapon Mastery, this is just too much by far to give the fighter in addition to all he already gains. The ability to haste himself several times per day reduces his reliance on equipment (hehe) and works synergistically with many other abilities (multiple spell-strips, etc etc)

In fact, haste is arguably more useful in its situation than this extra-attack routine. In 5 rounds, haste grants either double movement, or up to 5 additional attacks at full bonus, or a combination of the two. Arguably better than what you offer. Also less liable to exploitation in a two or three-round fight. More balanced, generally. Limit it to 10 rounds because most needs won't be that great, and allow it a number of times based on dex modifier to again enhance differentiated builds, and it's a nifty add for a high-dex fighter.


Overpowered compared to, say, the lowly Paladin or Barbarian? Certainly, and justifiably so. Melee classes are very weak, as is. Overpowered compared to even second-tier classes like the Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, Wu Jen, the Tome of Battle classes? Not a chance.
Overpowered compared to the Barbarian, the Ranger, the Rogue, the Bard, the Paladin, the Sorceror and the Wizard. Fighters are a base class; they shouldn't overshadow other base classes. I won't argue that fighters could use a slight boost; I thought some of the new PHB2 feats were a nice step toward that, but I acknowledge more could be done at higher levels. That said, there's not the kind of discrepancy which requires this much additional material to resolve.


Anyone who uses this can feel free to take out whatever they think is cheesy, but this is how I'd do it. If you think adding the feats to this is too much, reduce how often the Fighter gets them (to the Psychic Warrior's progression, say).
That, actually, makes some sense. I'm still not sure it reduces the potency to parity with the strongest base classes (i.e. clerics) but it does bring things a lot closer. 1/3 rather than 1/2 makes a fair bit of difference; my concern is that some of the fighter-exclusives may still provide too much synergy.

[Caewil]

Tactical Positioning (Ex) – the Fighter has learned how to position himself while fighting; with each successful attack he makes, he may take a free five-foot step that does not count against his limit of one five-foot step per round.
Would those successful attacks include attacks from cleave and great cleave? How would this work with whirlwind attack? I think this one needs a bit of work to make it less exploitable. I'd also add that the fighter cannot exceed his total movement allowance (?). That's 20ft for full plate and 30ft for a dex based fighter in Mithral Chain.

EDIT: Not just that, but does this apply to ranged attacks? If it does, how would rapid shot, many shot, etc affect it?

[ArmorArmadillo]

*Sigh*

The issues with martial classes and mages is an inherent flaw in the game balance, but the solution is not "Give fighters a whole bunch of class features and make them really good" It's to put practical controls on the level and capabilities of magic.

[Caewil]

True enough, but I quite like the changes, both flavour wise and in the fact that they ensure that the fighter is no longer a 4 level dip class.

I'd change the feat progression to that of the Psychic Warrior though...

[Cybren]

So what you're saying is, the solution isn't to make the game more fun for fighters, it's to make it less fun for casters? Brilliant

[PhoeKun]

Perhaps I'm just an idiot, but I fail to see the problem inherent to upping the power of the Fighter.

It seems to me the simpler method of balancing melee with spellcasting as opposed to reworking the magic system...

[Caewil]

Quite so, as well as the fact that the abilities make a fighter's development less linear.

[erewhon]

Would those successful attacks include attacks from cleave and great cleave?

In my opinion? Yes.


How would this work with whirlwind attack?

Count it as one attack. IE, one five foot step. Whirlwind is plenty badass against wussy stuff as it is. :)


I think this one needs a bit of work to make it less exploitable.

How is this exploitable? Combining with Charge abilities, perhaps? One major point of this effort is to improve the fighters mobility. This is combat only movement.


I'd also add that the fighter cannot exceed his total movement allowance (?). That's 20ft for full plate and 30ft for a dex based fighter in Mithral Chain.

Hrrrrm. Not a bad idea. A reasonably common build includes one level of Barbarian for the +10 move, and there's a feat that gives +5 feet as well, and an Epic feat that gives +30 feet! If the extra move Arts get put in, this would allow a Fighter to get to 100+ base move pretty easy, or 70+ feet in plate. That sounds about right to me, especially with the new Spring Attack tree of feats in the PHB2.


EDIT: Not just that, but does this apply to ranged attacks? If it does, how would rapid shot, many shot, etc affect it?

<shudder> Good question! I'd say, yes, it applies to ranged attacks, and any "multi-attack" gained from a feat, spell, etc, counts as one attack for one free five foot step.

Yes, this means you could see high-level fighters crashing about the battlefield like wrecking balls of doom. Sounds about right to me! :)

[Caewil]

In my opinion? Yes.
Great Cleavage! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0102.html)



<shudder> Good question! I'd say, yes, it applies to ranged attacks, and any "multi-attack" gained from a feat, spell, etc, counts as one attack for one free five foot step.

Yes, this means you could see high-level fighters crashing about the battlefield like wrecking balls of doom. Sounds about right to me! :)
Imagine that build you just said rapid shotting some poor wizard while moving closer all the while, then when he gets near, quickdraw + immediate full attack

Oh, and that's another thing, will this movement ability work with the immediate full attack ability granted at lvl20?

[erewhon]

Great Cleavage! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0102.html)
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0102.html)

OMG, what are you, psychic? That is EXACTLY the image I thought of as I answered that. :D




Imagine that build you just said rapid shotting some poor wizard while moving closer all the while, then when he gets near, quickdraw + immediate full attack

BOOM! :D Now, remove "wizard" from this statement, and insert "dragon." Suddenly, seems like a GREAT idea, hey? :D


Oh, and that's another thing, will this movement ability work with the immediate full attack ability granted at lvl20?

Sure! It takes TWENTY LEVELS of nothing but Fighter to qualify for that level of badassery. How many twenty level single-class builds do you see these days? How many tempting PrC's are you going to have to pass up?

Anybody who makes it, deserves it. They certainly earned it. :)

[Caewil]

True, but now all of the other poor melee classes are left behind.:smallfrown:


BOOM! :D Now, remove "wizard" from this statement, and insert "dragon." Suddenly, seems like a GREAT idea, hey? :D
Nah, a dragon's AC would be too good for that to work. And this is assuming the pathetic wizard forgets to cast AC enhancing spells. Alright, seems balanced enough.

BTW, can the full attact action be used to carry out special attacks? Eg: Whirlwind, rapid shot, manyshot.

Imagining the poor DM who had to work out all those attacks...

[PhoeKun]

A "Full Attack action" is not the same thing as an "Attack as part of a Full Round action", so presumably the answer is no.

[Pegasos989]

Still wondering what abilities to add? Can you think of good ways to let fighters
A) Get past spellcaster's freedom of movement in grapples
B) Shoot past wind wall
C) Negate/Lesser ability penalties (I am looking at you, 6th level maximized empowered ray of enfeeblement and your 14 points of strenght penalty, which makes any armor wearing fighters unable to move)

[erewhon]

Still wondering what abilities to add? Can you think of good ways to let fighters
A) Get past spellcaster's freedom of movement in grapples

bears said he forgot that one and has solicited input: I suggested a -10 to hit to negate FoM in a Grapple.


B) Shoot past wind wall

I see this SO many times. There's more ranged weapons than arrows, and some of them are quite heavy. For example, an Orcish Shotput is a 2d6 two-hander that weighs FIFTEEN POUNDS. That's heavier than a Greataxe! Unless you're willing to argue with a straight face that a Windwall will affect a Greataxe, that sucker will punch through a windwall like butter. Has a terrible range, etc, but you know what, a few creative enchantments on the thing and you got a world-beater.

It's all about the toys, folks, I keep telling people that. :D


C) Negate/Lesser ability penalties (I am looking at you, 6th level maximized empowered ray of enfeeblement and your 14 points of strenght penalty, which makes any armor wearing fighters unable to move)

It's already in there(Soul of Battle), or just go get Soulfire put on an animated buckler. Toys, folks. TOYS. :D

Fighters are not nearly as wusstastic as people think they are. ANYTHING a wizard can do, a Fighter can defend against. When the game was re-written to move to 3.x, a very good job was done to ensure that every offense has a defense, and the defense is usually not terribly espensive.

A good portion of this re-build effort is to explicate a great deal of what they can already do as class abilities, reducing their NEED for toys.


So far, it is looking quite good. :)

[erewhon]

True, but now all of the other poor melee classes are left behind.:smallfrown:

Not really. Many/most of these Arts are fairly generic, and many other melee classes have dead levels. You can add access to the Arts as written in available dead levels. Rangers could certainly use some help.

Barbarians have no dead levels, but tucking in three arts at 6, 12, and 18 for example could get them one Simple, one Advanced, and one Complex Art. Would certainly thicken them up a bit.

If that seems a bit generic, a different list could be readily generated for each melee base class.




Nah, a dragon's AC would be too good for that to work. And this is assuming the pathetic wizard forgets to cast AC enhancing spells. Alright, seems balanced enough.

Exactly! It's not a sure thing, now is it? :)


BTW, can the full attact action be used to carry out special attacks? Eg: Whirlwind, rapid shot, manyshot.

Imagining the poor DM who had to work out all those attacks...

I'd have to say, no. That's a bit much, I think. :)

[Caewil]

If that seems a bit generic, a different list could be readily generated for each melee base class.
So a ranger or barbarian would have Arts of the Wild or something similar.

Hmmmm... Not a bad idea. It would have to fit flavour wise.

[Morty]

A) Get past spellcaster's freedom of movement in grapples
If you ask me, Freedom Of Movement should work only on magical move-impairing effects anyway.

B) Shoot past wind wall
Wind wall is overpowered, it's the spell that should be nerferd. 3rd level spell that grants me immunity to even whole army of archers? Yes, please.
And besides, what about Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians?

[Bears With Lasers]

Okay, I've updated the original post--changed the bonus feat progression to the PsyWar's, removed the Complex immediate-action granting ability, clarified some abilities, nerfed a few others a bit, and added a couple more.

[Caewil]

Overcome Influence – Wind (Ex) – the Fighter has learned to compensate for the wind when he shoots a bow; he may treat wind force as two categories lower (i.e. Severe instead of Hurricane) when determining how they affect his ranged attacks, and may fire arrows or bolts through a Wind Wall spell or equivalent effect as though they were any other normal ranged weapon.
I'd keep the 30% miss chance applied to all other thrown weapons.


Battle Learning: Acrobatics (Ex) – the Fighter trains to perform feats of acrobatics and mobility in battle and other situations while armored. His armor check penalty does not apply to his Jump, Balance, Tumble, and Climb skills.

I think this is a bit much. Half the armor check penalty would be better.


Overcome Limitation: Size Difference (Ex) – the Fighter has learned complex techniques that allow him to match strengths with or topple even enormous beasts. Any creature making an opposed check against the Fighter does not get to add size bonuses to its check. Additionally, the fighter may attempt to grapple creatures up to three size categories larger, instead of just one.
Maybe this should also make him more effective at grappling foes his size or smaller. It seems a little weak compared to the other complex arts.

Other than that, it is brilliant!

[erewhon]

Okay, I've updated the original post--changed the bonus feat progression to the PsyWar's, removed the Complex immediate-action granting ability, clarified some abilities, nerfed a few others a bit, and added a couple more.


No, no! Put it back to the original feats progression.

The whole "schtick" of a Fighter is feats, and has been for years. Why in the world include a nerf while you're trying to upgrade the class?

One bonus feat every two levels. It's not just the law, it's a good idea! :)

Besides, the difference is only three feats, and doesn't have any real effect until well up there in the levels, where the fighter needs the most "oomph" anyway. :)

Now, off to dig through with a fine-tooth comb! :)

[ClericofPhwarrr]

I'm really going to try to get our DM to use this for my group's upcoming campaign. It'll be easier since I'm not playing the fighter, but it would be much easier if he were not the only one to get bonuses. What other core/PH2 characters should get Art of War abilities? My group has a fighter, ranger, duskblade, beguiler, cleric, and druid. I think it fairly obvious that the cleric and druid don't need any boosting, but what about, say, the duskblade? Or the beguiler (though it's not going to be a hack-slash campaign)?

Obviously the more martial classes should get some of these abilities, but what about when the line blurs? And any idea how the abilities should be spaced for balance?

[Bears With Lasers]

I'd say that you could get away with giving Rangers, Paladins, Barbarians, and Monks a single Simple, Advanced, and Complex art of War each. Duskblades could get two Simple and an Advanced one.
The Arts aren't really appropriate for rogue-type classes, and Beguilers don't need the help anyway; they're already excellent skillmonkeys with INT-based spontaneous casting from a rather nice list (and before you worry about golems and undead and the like, consider that Solid Fog + Ventriloquism [advanced learning] can be used to lead a golem around in the Fog as long as it lasts).

I've got a different Monk fix than just giving'em some similar Arts in mind, which may draw on these Arts for abilities, but won't use them. I may or may not eventually create some Arts for Paladins and Rangers and Barbarians, but they'd get fewer of'em, since they need the help less (well, Barbarians need it just as much, really).


As to the feats, there are a bunch of good feats out there; I'm worried about an optimized fighter becoming a bit much when combining them with the Arts. I'll think about restoring the regular fighter bonus feat progression, though; what do people think on the matter?

[Bears With Lasers]

I'd keep the 30% miss chance applied to all other thrown weapons.
That's what I tried to do when I said "as a normal ranged weapon", since Wind Wall says that normally ranged weapons have a 30% miss chance. I should probably specify.


I think this is a bit much. Half the armor check penalty would be better.
I really don't think it makes that much of a difference. Fighters just investing cross-class ranks regularly can already tumble in Full Plate eventually, this just lets them try to do it earlier (and they'll still have problems if they're not dexers, because they're cross-classing ranks and have a low-to-moderate dex). Everyone seems pretty insistent, though, so I may reduce the ACP to by 3 or something.


Maybe this should also make him more effective at grappling foes his size or smaller. It seems a little weak compared to the other complex arts.
Grappling-focused builds don't need to worry about foes their size or smaller; this is for them. A lot of high-level D&D creatures are really big, and grappling them is impossible even if you can win. Plus, there's that pesky size bonus in *addition* to their higher STR. This is for grapplers who want to be able to try to grab giants by the ankle and topple them, or even trippers who want to trip dragons. It's weak as a generic Art, but very useful to Fighters who focus on that sort of thing.


Other than that, it is brilliant!
Thanks. :D

[Caewil]

Besides, the difference is only three feats, and doesn't have any real effect until well up there in the levels, where the fighter needs the most "oomph" anyway. :)
As much as that idea rocks, we'd have to give the other melee classes something more than a few arts.

[Cybren]

I don't really thing the ACP one is overkill. OH WOW NO ACP. Well, yeah. People trained to move in armor can move in armor. Knights would often do sommersaults and cartwheels in their armor as demonstrations.

[Caewil]

True, but eliminating it altogether means that a full-plated fighter can cartwheel as well as someone in padded armour.

Well, it is a cross-class skill... Yeah, I don't think it makes that much difference in that case.

[PhoeKun]

True, but eliminating it altogether means that a full-plated fighter can cartwheel as well as someone in padded armour.



Unlikely. If someone's wearing Padded Armor, they've got to have an obscenly high Dex score, and probably have Tumble as a class skill, in stark contrast to the fullplate wearing Fighter's skill. But it's still possible for a man to, with training, be able to move as well in his armor as he can without it.

Besides, how often does one look at a Fighter and think, "man, that guy would be broken without that -6 to Tumble checks"?

[XtheYeti]

I love you you fixed fighters...I am stealing this and using it to smash all foes...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....(pant pant)HAHAHAHAHA.

[Caewil]

I love you you fixed fighters...I am stealing this and using it to smash all foes...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....(pant pant)HAHAHAHAHA.

Oh those poor paladins.

BTW, I think all of the classes need some sort of capstone ability. Except the full casters (they get 9th level spells)

[Pegasos989]

I would say that you should keep the fighter feat progression. As you said, you aren't balancing this to barbarians but to casters and ToB. I don't think that with full fighter feats and these arts you outshine warblade that much, really.

We are getting to the point in which we need some playtest data or CharOp board opinions...

[Caewil]

Hmmm... Yeah. I also like the fact that there would be no dead levels.

Anyway, if this works out, we could use it as the standard to balance all other melee classes to. (Dibs on the Paladin)

[ambu]

Yes it is very nice. But I just realized that we are all 'upping' the power level to match the wizard. ToB, this very nice fix, next the paladin and the barbarian... We are always increasing the power level. Soon, DnD characters are gods among farmers. Maybe we should just focus on downplaying the wizard, in reality the magic system?

Just a thought.

[Morty]

Yes it is very nice. But I just realized that we are all 'upping' the power level to match the wizard. ToB, this very nice fix, next the paladin and the barbarian... We are always increasing the power level. Soon, DnD characters are gods among farmers. Maybe we should just focus on downplaying the wizard, in reality the magic system?

Just a thought.

Really, I don't think fighter with that fix, as good as it may be, can equal wizard- he just won't be massacred and will be less spellcaster-depentant. It's wizard who need to be seriously toned down. And yes, if every class is on wizard's level of power, typical party would slaughter encounters on their CR.
Besides, on lower levels fighter with that fix may be too strong, as on lower levels 'normal' fighter is fine.
As about other melee classes: what about giving Rangers on the every level they get combat-style feat one Art of War associated with their style? And what about Samurai :tongue:?

[Deepblue706]

I'm greatly impressed, BwL. Good work! Though, I would agree some things do need adjusting. I've been trying to work out a better Fighter myself - maybe we could compare notes?

[erewhon]

Hmmm... Yeah. I also like the fact that there would be no dead levels.

Correct! :) Symmetry is good, and stuff. :)



Anyway, if this works out, we could use it as the standard to balance all other melee classes to. (Dibs on the Paladin)

Careful of the Paladin, they already scale pretty nicely as their Charisma gets better. (Lay on Hands for 300 points a day, +15 to all saves, etc, etc. :) ) But it'd be fun to see what you get! :)

[erewhon]

As about other melee classes: what about giving Rangers on the every level they get combat-style feat one Art of War associated with their style? And what about Samurai :tongue:?

The beauty of this style of fix is the fact that any melee class can be updated with two sentences:

"This class gets X Arts at Y levels. All choices are subject to DM approval, and should follow the spirit of the class."

Poof, done. :)

A very nice system under development, here.

[Caewil]

Careful of the Paladin, they already scale pretty nicely as their Charisma gets better. (Lay on Hands for 300 points a day, +15 to all saves, etc, etc. :) ) But it'd be fun to see what you get! :)
Paladins are very nice, but I think that smiting should do something more than extra damage... Maybe just a variant smite at lvl 10 and a capstone ability at 20th.

[Pegasos989]

Correct! :) Symmetry is good, and stuff. :)




Careful of the Paladin, they already scale pretty nicely as their Charisma gets better. (Lay on Hands for 300 points a day, +15 to all saves, etc, etc. :) ) But it'd be fun to see what you get! :)

Geting cha 15 is kinda hard. Even with starting of 18, +5 levels, +5 tomes and +6 item is still only +12.... Somewhere along the line of lay on hands 160 and +8 to all saves would be closer to reality.

But yeah, I agree that paladins, especially charging ones with bless weapon, are already very powerful. I only wish they wouldn't become so useless when against nonevil creatures...

Because of that, I think they would need some boost. Not that much though...


Paladins are very nice, but I think that smiting should do something more than extra damage... Maybe just a variant smite at lvl 10 and a capstone ability at 20th.


Something like adding dispel evil, break enchantment, dismissal or such effect on the smite by spending additional smite attempt or turn attempts?

[Caewil]

Something like adding dispel evil, break enchantment, dismissal or such effect on the smite by spending additional smite attempt or turn attempts?
Yes, by using turn-undead attempts. Of course, ban nightsticks.

Eg: Forceful Smite(?)

By using one of his turning attempts, a paladin can make his smite more forceful. The enemy smited is knocked back 5 ft + 5ft per 5 paladin levels. The foe then has to make a reflex save to avoid falling prone. DC = Paladin's level + Charisma Modifier.

Against foes larger than the paladin, the distance they are knocked back decreases by 5ft per size category that they are larger than the paladin. Enemies 3 size categories larger than the paladin cannot be knocked prone by this ability.

Or something like that.

[Fizban]

So, baisically what you guys want are more divine feats? There's plenty of those already. I suggest more uses for that cure disease ability and some high level abilities that are actually useful.

[Caewil]

Huh, I didn't know there were many divine feats. Which book are they in?

[Pegasos989]

Huh, I didn't know there were many divine feats. Which book are they in?

Complete warrior/divine mostly but PHB2 and a lot of other extra books have them too.

[erewhon]

Ok, I've had a couple of days to ponder this, got my hands on a ToB, did a little research, below see the first draft of my thoughts.



Simple Arts of War:

Overcome Difficulty: Weapon Size (Ex) – the Fighter learns to make the most of powerful swings, regardless of the weapon or weapons he is wielding. When using the Power Attack feat, the fighter may add one and a half times the number subtracted from his attack rolls (rounded down) to the damage of a one-handed weapon and one-half times the number subtracted from his attack rolls (rounded down) to the damage of a light weapon.

Most excellent, but I'd make it 1 to 1 for light weapons and unarmed. (Yes, it's already 1:1 for unarmed, makes no sense whatsoever.)


Fléche (Ex) – when charging, the Fighter does not provoke any attacks of opportunity.

Deceptively simple, but powerful, especially when combined with the many Charge feats. Can make a dangerous build even worse. Perfect! :)


Overcome Limitation: Size (Ex)– the Fighter may receive or increase size bonuses (but not penalties), except those to physical attributes, or reduce size penalties (without affecting bonuses), as though he was one size category smaller or larger than he is, at will; he may switch from one to the other as an immediate action. This Art does not permit him to use weapons sized for creatures of a size category different from his own without penalty.

Good for grapplers? Useful for when you're Squeezed? You may want to clarify these, or even better, provide a quick example of each.



Expert Flanker (Ex): if the Fighter and an ally are both threatening a creature, they are considered to be flanking it. The fighter may provide flanking to more than one ally in this way, but he only receives the normal +2 flanking bonus, regardless.

Wow. Very, very nice. Do bonuses from this art stack, for example, if three meleers all have this, is it +6 for everybody? +2 for the three Flankers and +6 for everybody else? How do you define ally? (The fighter gets to pick?)



Overcome Obstacle: Terrain (Ex) – the Fighter may treat difficult terrain as though it was regular terrain, thus being subject to none of the limitations of or penalties applied to creatures in difficult terrain.

Simple, but nice.



Disciplined Will (Ex) – the Fighter battles mental influences fiercely; when he fails a saving throw against a mind-affecting spell or effect, the effect is delayed by a round—it does not apply until the same point during the following round. This does not count against the effect’s duration.

Very, very nice. Combined with some of the Will-save boosting feats from the PHB2, this really helps drive home the "GRRRR! KILL!" aspect of fighters.


Battle Learning: Magic (Ex) – the Fighter studies spellcasting enemies, allies, or both, learning to identify their spells so that he can better deal with them. He adds half his class levels, rounded up, as a competence bonus on Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana checks, but only in regards to spells being cast.

Very nice! Simple, etc. If he has zero ranks, does this still allow rolls to be made? (I think both of those are training only skills, might be wrong.)


Battle Learning: Alertness (Ex) – the Fighter trains to hear and notice things others might overlook, the better to see his enemy coming to stand guard over his sleeping companions. He adds half his class levels, rounded up, as a competence bonus on Spot and Listen checks.

Again, excellent, and again, does this allow rolls? (I'm sure it does, asking for thoroughness sake.)


Battle Learning: Acrobatics (Ex) – the Fighter trains to perform feats of acrobatics and mobility in battle and other situations while armored. His armor check penalty does not apply to his Jump, Balance, Tumble, and Climb skills.

Again, very nice. Again, does this allow skill rolls with zero ranks?


Weapon Aptitude (Ex) – the Fighter has the flexibility to adjust his weapon training. He can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat he has that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). He must have the newly designated weapon available during his practice session to make this change. For example, if he wishes to change the designated weapon for his Weapon Focus feat from greatsword to longsword, he must have a longsword available to practice with during his practice session.
He can adjust any number of his feats in this way, and he doesn't have to adjust them all in the same way. However, he can't change the weapon choices in such a way that he no longer meets the prerequisite for some other feat he possesses. For instance, if he has both Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon Specialization (longsword), he can't change the designated weapon for Weapon Focus unless he also changes the weapon for Weapon Specialization in the same way.

VERY nice. After hard pondering, I'd change this so it takes a day of training per feat changed, meaning 8 undisturbed hours of drills and a good spot to work in, like a training hall. Basically, make this like scribing spells, etc. Sure, maybe a freaky Swordsage can do this stuff like nothing, but Fighters should have to sweat it a bit more. Otherwise, munchkins will surely be doing weird stupid stuff with it.





Advanced Arts of War:

Overcome Influence – Wind (Ex) – the Fighter has learned to compensate for the wind when he shoots a bow; he may treat wind force as two categories lower (i.e. Severe instead of Hurricane) when determining how they affect his ranged attacks, and may fire arrows or bolts through a Wind Wall spell or equivalent effect as though they were any other normal ranged weapon.

VERY nice. Djinni's run in terror! :) A strong reason to have archer fighter builds.


Overcome Difficulty: Freedom Arcana (Ex) – the Fighter has either had his attempts to grapple an enemy thwarted by the Freedom of Movement spell, or witnessed an ally use such a spell to keep himself safe from grapples. In order to overcome this, the Fighter has developed a complex technique that allows him to defeat the spell’s influence. When the Fighter grapples an enemy under the effects of the Freedom of Movement spell or something that duplicates its effects, his opponent receives +15 on grapple checks made to resist a grapple and grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple, rather than automatically succeeding on those checks as the spell would normally allow him to do.

Wow, and this is an extraordinary ability! That's really, really strong, but it does fit in with most of this stuff being Ex. I could also argue to make this Su, as the effect its meant to combat will be lost in AMF's anyway.... Ehn, it's likely fine as is.


Overcome Limitation: Reach (Ex) – the Fighter trains to attack while positioning, lunge, and fight in close quarters. As a swift action, the Fighter may increase his reach by 5 feet for one round. A Fighter wielding a reach weapon may also take an immediate action to decrease his reach, allowing him to threaten as though he were not wielding a reach weapon. While his reach is increased or decreased, the Fighter takes a –2 penalty to AC. The fighter may restore his reach to normal as an immediate action.

Wow, I really like this one. Lots of polearms never get used due to the dead space close up, this is VERY "fighterish" in flavor. A ten foot reach weapon (I'm looking at YOU, glaive!) can now threaten all the way from 5 feet to 15 feet. Suddenly, those big ugly polearms are REALLY NICE. This might be the best ability in here, from a "flavor" standpoint. And, with the right AoO feats, it's MUCH more potent than it appears at first. Subtle! Effective! Gets a rare weapon some playtime! :)


Charging Pounce (Ex) – the Fighter may make a full attack on a charge. If he has the ability to transfer the to-hit penalty from Power Attack to his AC, he may not use it with Charging Pounce.

Honestly, the "charge and attack" builds are strong enough without this. I'd remove this one. Don't hate me! :D


Overcome Obstacle: Distance (Ex) – the Fighter may charge greater distances, moving up to three times his speed on a charge rather than up to two. He may not make a full attack on a charge taking him farther than two times his speed, even if he has the ability to do so (such as from the Charging Pounce Art of War or the Psionic Lion’s Charge power).

Again, I'd remove this, and replace it with the Arts I suggested to increase your base speed, instead. Charge builds get plenty of horsepower already, in my opinion. Maybe I'm crazy. :)


Tactical Awareness (Ex) – the Fighter learns to be aware of the precise details of the battlefield positions of those around him, gaining the ability to pinpoint the unseen. He gains Blindsense 30’ when in combat, which becomes Blindsight 50’ at level 15; however, any creature that has taken no actions on its last round can not be detected by this Blindsense or Blindsight. While the Fighter’s sight or hearing is impaired, such as if he is Blinded, Deafened, in the area of effect of a Darkness spell, he loses his Blindsense; at level 15, his Blindsight is reduced to Blindsense, instead.

EXCELLENT. Enough said. Wouldn't change a thing. Gives a useful "battlefield awareness" power, useless out of combat. Excellent.


Heart of Battle (Ex) – the Fighter is hardened against the horror and din of battle and the debilitating effects of spells. He becomes Sickened instead of Nauseated, Shaken instead of Frightened, Frightened instead of Panicked, Stunned instead of Paralyzed, Dazed instead of Stunned or Cowering, Staggered instead of Dazed, Fatigued instead of Exhausted, Ability Damaged instead of Ability Drained, and Fascinated instead of Confused. If something would normally inflict the Shaken, Fatigued, or Sickened conditions on him, the Fighter remains unaffected. All such conditions retain their normal durations, and the fighter may only mitigate or negate a number of conditions equal to 3+his Charisma bonus, if any, at a time.

VERY nice! Do negative Cha mods reduce this? (I'd say yes, punish those 6 cha stat dumpers.)


Spell-Shattering Strike (Su) – the Fighter has fought wizards and learned the power of their spells—and how to combat it. When wielding a magic weapon, he may forego the damage on any attack he makes to strip away a spell currently in effect on the target; if he succeeds on an opposed caster level check, substituting his base attack bonus for his caster level (normally 0), he may dispel a single spell currently in effect on his target. If the fighter is wielding a weapon made of Cold Iron, he receives a +5 circumstance bonus on this check. At level 15, he may also make a single attack as a full-round action, and if it hits, he may attempt to dispel all spells currently on the target instead of doing damage; to do this, he must succeed on a check of 1d20+class level+5 opposed by a caster level check from the caster of the spell for each spell in effect on his target.

Most excellent!


Willful Resistance (Ex) – the Fighter is a disciplined warrior who can use that discipline to batter through spells or effects that might harm them. As an immediate action, the Fighter can replace a single saving throw with a concentration check.

WOW. This is very nice, but needs a bit of clarity: Replace the save BEFORE dice are rolled, or after? :) You can see the point I'm getting at? :D And, this explains why Concentration is now a class skill!


Basic Mastery: the Fighter may select three Arts of War from the Simple Arts of War list.

As long as they are not allowed to stack, this is fine. Maybe need a few more Simple Arts?





Complex Arts of War:

Overcome Difficulty: Weakness (Su) – the Fighter knows that his place is on his front line, and he pushes his body beyond its normal capabilities to stay there, come hells or high water. The Fighter automatically reduces any penalty (whether environment-based, magical, or other) applied to his attack rolls, ability scores, and saving throws while in combat by 3+his Constitution bonus, if any. He may only reduce a number of penalties equal to his Constitution bonus or 1, whichever is greater, at a time; however, he selects which penalties to apply the reduction to.

Criminy, this is nice. With a +6 Con bonus (not hard to get) this lets you ignore the first nine points of ability drain. NINE! Rays of enfeeblement aren't that bad, all of a sudden. I like it a lot. Plus, it gives a very nifty effect, as the last critter fals, the DM calls for non-initiative action, and the fighter crumples in a heap as the adrenaline wears off. "Medic!" :D


Tactical Reflexes (Ex) – the Fighter knows when to strike, lightning-fast, at a sudden opening; as an immediate action, he may take an attack action, even when it is not his turn.

Very nice. Basically, at any time in combat, the fighter may expend an immediate action and take a single attack at full BAB. Does this replace his normal attack for the round, or is it in addition? If it's in addition, why would'nt you do this EVERY round you have a target?


Shattering Blow (Ex) – by focusing and making a single strike rather than several, the Fighter may inflict a devastating blow. As a full-round action, he may make a single attack that ignores the DR and hardness of its target and deals +10d6 damage, +1d6 for every two Fighter levels above 10th.

SO nice! :)


Seize the Initiative (Ex) – even if initially surprised, the Fighter can react faster than almost anyone else. As a swift action, the fighter gains a competence bonus to initiative equal to his class level.

Usable only once per combat? Or can you keep jacking up your init? :D


Overcome Limitation: Size Difference (Ex) – the Fighter has learned complex techniques that allow him to match strengths with or topple even enormous beasts. Any creature making an opposed check against the Fighter does not get to add size bonuses to its check. Additionally, the fighter may attempt to grapple creatures up to three size categories larger, instead of just one.

Very nice indeed, especially if combined with a few of the other Arts. :)


Overcome Obstacle: Bindings (Su) – the Fighter is capable of focusing his will and brushing aside anything holding him back. As a standard action, the Fighter may grant himself a Freedom of Movement (as per the spell) effect that lasts for a number of rounds equal to the fighter’s class level.

Su? I'd make this Ex, in keeping with most of these being Ex, and it really strikes me as a "strongman" escape sort of thiing rather than some supernatural abaility. I might be wrong. :D


Mind of Battle (Ex) – the Fighter is an excellent judge of his own skill, and capable of continuously excellent performance. As an immediate action, the Fighter may “take 10” on any one attack roll, opposed check, or saving throw while in combat.

Very nice! :) Combine with top end feats, this gets VERY nce indeed. Take 10 on a save, yowsa!


Tactical Positioning (Ex) – the Fighter has learned how to position himself while fighting; with each successful attack he makes, he may take a free five-foot step that does not count against his limit of one five-foot step per round. This ability applies once per successful attack roll made—if an ability allows the Fighter to make multiple attacks with a single attack roll (for example, the Manyshot feat), the Fighter receives a single five-foot step if the attack roll succeeds. The fighter may not move further than his current move speed with these five-foot steps.

Perfect, and awesome! :)


Spell-Parrying Steel (Su) – the Fighter has dealt with enough spellcasters to learn to react to their spells—and send them hurtling back. When the figher is the target of a ranged touch attack with a spell or spell-like ability and is wielding a magic weapon, he may, as an immediate action, make an attack roll (with a +5 circumstance bonus if the weapon he is parrying with is made of Cold Iron) versus a DC of 10+the spell’s caster level+the spellcaster’s casting ability modifier. If he succeeds, the spell is deflected and dissipates harmlessly as it rebounds off of the Fighter’s weapon.

Rays = swat. Good indeed! :)


Advanced Mastery – the Fighter may select two Arts of War from the Advanced Arts of War list.

May need a few more Arts? :)




Peerless Arts of War:

Peerless Reactions (Ex), prerequisites Willful Resistance, Tactical Reflexes – the Fighter has a mental focus greater than any opponent, allowing him to react much faster than others. He gains a second swift or immediate action, now able to take two in a round rather than the one he could normally.

Criminy, that's subtle, but SO NICE.


Peerless Awareness (Ex), prerequisites Seize the Initiative and Tactical Awareness – the Fighter has developed an awareness of the so perfect it borders on the supernatural. The Fighter now always adds a competence bonus equal to his one-half class level to his initiative checks, and the Blindsense or Blindsight granted by Tactical Awareness increase to 60’. Additionally, he cannot be surprised.

Whew! NICE! :) I'd add a caveat he can't be surprised unless his sight and hearing are degraded, or he's asleep, etc.


Soul of Battle (Su), prerequisites Heart of Battle and Mind of Battle – the Fighter is a master of battle, his force of will making his body far tougher than it seems. He automatically suceeds on saves vs. massive damage, does not fail saving throws on a natural 1, is immune to critical hits, [Death] spells and negative levels, and may reroll one attack roll per round.

MAN, that is NICE! :D I'd make it Ex, but that's just me.


Spell-Destroying Steel (Su), prerequisites Spell-Shattering Strike and Spell-Parrying Steel – the Fighter has trained long and hard to be able to combat mages; when using Spell-Parrying Steel, he may also parry spells that target him (but not area-of-effect spells such as Fireball) even if they don’t involve a ranged touch attack. Additionally, he may, as an immediate action, cause any spell or spell-like ability producing a force effect in any square the fighter threatens to fail, unless the caster succeeds on a caster level check, DC 10+the fighter's level (+5 more if the fighter is wielding a weapon made of cold iron).

I'd make this Ex, as a point of order, and it's not clear to me: This can break any force effect at any time, not just when it's being cast. IE, he swats the forcecage with his Cold Iron Glaive from fifteen feet away and it goes "poof".


Peerless Tactics (Ex), prerequisites Tactical Reflexes, Lightning Reactions – the Fighter can influence the course of an entire battle, gaining a tactical advantage; as a result, he can spend an immediate action to make a full attack once per encounter.

SO nice! :)

Well, that's my two cents, after due pondering. Any thought on adding the Arts I suggested earlier? Once this gets a little more stable, I'll see if I can scare up some dice time for these.

[amanodel]

What about a simple art like Divine Favor? It's luck bonus, so it won't be useless. Or make it insight bonus. It could describe how a fighter can use tactical errors of his enemies, or use any little fragment of the environment in his favor, like kicking sand in the opponents eyes, notice a minor hindering flaw in his opponent's armor, and so on. "Combat eyes" or "Battle insight" could be the name.

I'd give the masteries to the barbarian, ranger, and paladin as well. They need some love too!


Are there any abilities you think would make good additions to the list? I thought about adding specific things to help TWFing and Sword-And-Board fighters, but I wanted to deal with a Generic Fighter first; what kind of Simple/Complex/Advanced Arts would you suggest for that? How about an Art that lets grapplers, say, take a -X penalty to ignore the Freedom of Movement spell on their target? How big should -X be? For fixing TWF, there were some good suggestions. Making the three TWF feat into one which increases with BAB, letting them attack with both weapons in a standard action. With the help of the "Overcome difficultes: sizeorwhat" They could deal realatively good damage.

Maybe a simple art could teach them to use two or more attack as a part of a standard action. Making the dervish sword dance into a advanced art seems reasonable to me. Basically the whole dervish could be made into arts (aside from scimitars). Since you have the "Difficulty overcome: TWF penalties" art (can't remember how you named them) you could make it a prereq for dervish-like arts.

Fixing shield fighters one way is the shield bash. There's some feat or whatnot that allows you to use shield bash while stil having the shield's AC bonus. Shield mastery or whatever it is that increases shield AC is also a good way to make it better. Just have to find a way to reduce the feat cost. As I see it the thing really kills TWF and shield-fighting is the low damage output (taken care with your rules), and the obscene number of feats you need to use.

What about an art that allows shield users to block spell effects? That'd worth it's salt. Possibly not AoE's, but rays, LoE's and the like. (A literal "mind shield" also crossed my mind, but I laughed so it's may be a bit too much.) Perhaps it could be broken to different arts, depending the type of spell you can block with your shield.
Or "shield might", which would allow you to add +4 shield bonus to most opposed checks in meelee.

[Tormsskull]

I see a few generic problems with these "fixes" to the fighter. First, if you feel the fighter is vastly underpowered compared to spellcasters, why not just eliminate the fighter class and replace it with one of these tome of battle classes that you feel is on par with spellcasters?

This class does not feel like a "fighter" anymore. A fighter's niche should be physical defense, physical attacks, and endurance. If I felt that the fighter was vastly underpowered to full spellcasters (To be honest, playing Core only I have never encountered this problem. My group tends to play more traditionally I guess, the cleric/druid heals/buffs the party, the mage/sorceror casts attacking spells/debuffs the enemy, etc) then I would try to buff the fighter's strengths up rather than buffing their weaknesses up.

If the goal is to make fighter versus wizard viable then I have to ask, why? D&D's intent has never been solo combat or "one on one arena matches." D&D combat has been about a PC party defeating an enemy party. If the fighter becomes pointless after X level then I have to think that is a problem with the DM designing the encounters.

IMO when it comes to power levels a fighter and a wizard aren't vastly different. When it comes to an optimized fighter versus an optimized wizard, then the wizard is likely to become exponentially more powerful than the fighter. But as a player in a cooperative game, why would you want to make your friend that you're playing with be completely useless because you got an A+ in D&D Min/Maxing class?

[Pegasos989]

I see a few generic problems with these "fixes" to the fighter. First, if you feel the fighter is vastly underpowered compared to spellcasters, why not just eliminate the fighter class and replace it with one of these tome of battle classes that you feel is on par with spellcasters?

This class does not feel like a "fighter" anymore. A fighter's niche should be physical defense, physical attacks, and endurance. If I felt that the fighter was vastly underpowered to full spellcasters (To be honest, playing Core only I have never encountered this problem. My group tends to play more traditionally I guess, the cleric/druid heals/buffs the party, the mage/sorceror casts attacking spells/debuffs the enemy, etc) then I would try to buff the fighter's strengths up rather than buffing their weaknesses up.

If the goal is to make fighter versus wizard viable then I have to ask, why? D&D's intent has never been solo combat or "one on one arena matches." D&D combat has been about a PC party defeating an enemy party. If the fighter becomes pointless after X level then I have to think that is a problem with the DM designing the encounters.

IMO when it comes to power levels a fighter and a wizard aren't vastly different. When it comes to an optimized fighter versus an optimized wizard, then the wizard is likely to become exponentially more powerful than the fighter. But as a player in a cooperative game, why would you want to make your friend that you're playing with be completely useless because you got an A+ in D&D Min/Maxing class?


Because opponents could also include spellcasters, towards which fighter can do currently nothing? There is a reason to buff his weaknesses away.

So the party wizard has to do everything because fighter is unable? There is the reason why one makes it completely useless...

If your party plays wizards as weakest possible option (evocators), you don't have to use the variant but most of us like to aim for the good or atleast average choices in character creation and then the spellcasters are overpowered compared to fighters and that is why we need these variants.

[Morty]

I see a few generic problems with these "fixes" to the fighter. First, if you feel the fighter is vastly underpowered compared to spellcasters, why not just eliminate the fighter class and replace it with one of these tome of battle classes that you feel is on par with spellcasters?
If I ever feel that fighter is underpowered- and personally I don't think so-, then I'd upgrade fighter instead of replacing him with warblade or something- because I want to play fighter, not some weird 'martial adept'.
If you ask me, I'd rather tone down wizards, clerics and druids, but that fix is fine. Fighter is still a fighter, but with more options, especially on higher levels.

[Bears With Lasers]

I see a few generic problems with these "fixes" to the fighter. First, if you feel the fighter is vastly underpowered compared to spellcasters, why not just eliminate the fighter class and replace it with one of these tome of battle classes that you feel is on par with spellcasters?
Because the Tome of Battle classes have a very different flavor and style. They feel a lot like playing a "gish". A lot of people want to play FIghters.


This class does not feel like a "fighter" anymore. A fighter's niche should be physical defense, physical attacks, and endurance. If I felt that the fighter was vastly underpowered to full spellcasters (To be honest, playing Core only I have never encountered this problem. My group tends to play more traditionally I guess, the cleric/druid heals/buffs the party, the mage/sorceror casts attacking spells/debuffs the enemy, etc) then I would try to buff the fighter's strengths up rather than buffing their weaknesses up.
So you're saying a fighter should have lots of gaping weaknesses and isn't a Fighter anymore without them? :smallfrown:
I don't know how carefully you looked at the abilities, but I did everything I could to preserve the Fighter's niche and flavor. The abilities are almost entirely based around physical combat and mental discipline (which is also part of the Fighter's flavor). There are some more esoteric abilities--like Spell-Parrying Steel--but they're optional, there for a Fighter who trains in that martial path. A Fighter with, say, Peerless Awareness, Tactical Reflexes, Seize the Initiative, and Tactical Awareness sure feels like a Fighter to me.

The fighter is supposed to be the front line and hold it; he's also supposed to be able to keep going all day. I think these abilities help him do so at high levels, where the Fighter normally can't compete with either his spellcasting party members or, more importantly, monsters.

If you're playing core-only and not encountering the problem, I don't really know what you're doing. A druid doesn't even need to try to be a better Fighter than the fighter; *all* he has to do is use his primary class feature (Wild Shape). Maybe your wizards are all blasters and your clerics only heal.


If the goal is to make fighter versus wizard viable then I have to ask, why? D&D's intent has never been solo combat or "one on one arena matches." D&D combat has been about a PC party defeating an enemy party. If the fighter becomes pointless after X level then I have to think that is a problem with the DM designing the encounters.
The goal is not to make Fighter Versus Wizard viable. This was designed for adventuring... where the party occasionally fights spellcasters. When they do, if he targets the fighter with anything other than a blasting spell, the Fighter is likely to keel over and not contribute anything for the rest of the fight. A Fighter who has that problem can take the anti-caster Arts, but he doesn't have to.

The fighter becoming pointless after X level isn't a problem with encounter design, it's a problem with FIGHTER design. Yes, the DM could have all the monsters ambush the party and be immune to magic, but after the fourth set of magic-immune monsters jump out of the bushes, it'll get a little trite.

Look at the monsters in the MM. Say, CR 15 and over. Take a dragon, or a Pit Fiend. What's a Fighter going to do? How will he even get to his enemy?


IMO when it comes to power levels a fighter and a wizard aren't vastly different. When it comes to an optimized fighter versus an optimized wizard, then the wizard is likely to become exponentially more powerful than the fighter.
Sorry, just not the case. The wizard doesn't have to optimize; as long as he's remotely decent at spell selection, he'll pull significantly ahead after the mid-levels. Not everyone plays the (weak) blaster archetype; a lot of people play enchanters or buffers/disablers for the flavor, with the power coming hand-in-hand.


But as a player in a cooperative game, why would you want to make your friend that you're playing with be completely useless because you got an A+ in D&D Min/Maxing class?
You wouldn't, but if your friend is playing a Fighter, odds are good he just plain won't be able to contribute against higher-level monsters. What's he going to do against that dragon or that demon? He can't even get to them. Someone on the boards mentioned as an example that in a game with a figther and a cleric, the cleric wound up acting as the primary tank just because he could do it better; when the group was in danger, they'd naturally have the cleric tank. The fighter felt marginalized and useless.

Also, while spellcasters can nerf themselves to let the Fighter shine, why should they have to? If I have to avoid most of the good spells on my list, or intentionally Wild Shape into weak creatures, just so that the Fighter can keep up... well, isn't that a design problem with the fighter?
I think it is.
I think this fix boost the Fighter's power at high levels without changing it significantly at low ones. I think this fix removes some of the things that cripple them at higher levels, making them a regular class with strengths and weaknesses. I think it does so while keeping the Fighter's flavor recently intact. And I think that's a good thing.

[Bears With Lasers]

What about a simple art like Divine Favor? It's luck bonus, so it won't be useless. Or make it insight bonus. It could describe how a fighter can use tactical errors of his enemies, or use any little fragment of the environment in his favor, like kicking sand in the opponents eyes, notice a minor hindering flaw in his opponent's armor, and so on. "Combat eyes" or "Battle insight" could be the name.
Not a bad thought, but I'd rather stay away from flat AB/damage boosting Arts--that's already an area covered by feats, like the Weapon Focus->Weapon Supremacy tree.


I'd give the masteries to the barbarian, ranger, and paladin as well. They need some love too!
Sure, but I'm mostly concerned with the Fighter for now. ;)


For fixing TWF, there were some good suggestions. Making the three TWF feat into one which increases with BAB, letting them attack with both weapons in a standard action. With the help of the "Overcome difficultes: sizeorwhat" They could deal realatively good damage.
A Simple Art that allows two attacks in a standard action would be fine, but it wouldn't help that much. I agree that a "Two-Weapon Fighting" feat should progress with BAB to grant three attacks (and, in fact, combat feats should improved with BAB in general), but that'd be a TWF Feat fix, not a Fighter fix.


Maybe a simple art could teach them to use two or more attack as a part of a standard action. Making the dervish sword dance into a advanced art seems reasonable to me. Basically the whole dervish could be made into arts (aside from scimitars). Since you have the "Difficulty overcome: TWF penalties" art (can't remember how you named them) you could make it a prereq for dervish-like arts.
Do you mean for TWFers? A simple art giving them, essentially, two attacks for a standard action would work, yeah. As for the Dervish thing, I think I'll save that for the reasonably-powered Dervish class. ;)


What about an art that allows shield users to block spell effects? That'd worth it's salt. Possibly not AoE's, but rays, LoE's and the like. (A literal "mind shield" also crossed my mind, but I laughed so it's may be a bit too much.) Perhaps it could be broken to different arts, depending the type of spell you can block with your shield.
Or "shield might", which would allow you to add +4 shield bonus to most opposed checks in meelee.
I gave the "block spell effect" to everyone, already, alas. I was considering an Advanced shield art that would provide miss chance in the form of concealment. The Shield Might thing is a good idea, but there's a Shield Ward feat in the PHB II I don't want to step on the toes of.

[amanodel]

Do you mean for TWFers? A simple art giving them, essentially, two attacks for a standard action would work, yeah. As for the Dervish thing, I think I'll save that for the reasonably-powered Dervish class. ;)

Well, there's always the dervish PrC to take. I just don't feel the silly prereqs for dervish abilities are needed. And perhaps it'd be good if a PrC wasn't the only way to moderately fix TWF-ers. It's just bad if every twf-er fighter (twf rogues are quite different) would need to be the same. Wearing light armor, Not carrying a single item to be lightly encoumbered, having two scimitars. I'm surprised they didn't include an onyx panther as a prerequsite...


I gave the "block spell effect" to everyone, already, alas. I was considering an Advanced shield art that would provide miss chance in the form of concealment. The Shield Might thing is a good idea, but there's a Shield Ward feat in the PHB II I don't want to step on the toes of.

Spell-parying steel, I forgot. As I imagined it'd look like a jedi blocking laser pistol shots with his lightsaber. A classic. :) I'd still add shield-using fighters some extra love. Perhaps an ability which adds their shield AC against certain saves versus spells? That way a shielded fighter could defend himself better, even against spellcasters.
I forgot shield ward. Yeah, they're kinda same with "Shiled might".

[Spikes01k]

Overcome Limitation, this alone is broken

[amanodel]

To semi-quote Bears: Wizard level 15, that's broken. :)

[Raum]

Because the Tome of Battle classes have a very different flavor and style. They feel a lot like playing a "gish". A lot of people want to play FIghters. In some ways I agree with Tormsskull. Not that fighters don't need a boost, they do. But their abilities shouldn't be supernatural affects or even supernatural in flavor while labeled extraordinary. Once you give them supernatural abilities they lose much of the fighter flavor...just as the ToB classes have.


So you're saying a fighter should have lots of gaping weaknesses and isn't a Fighter anymore without them? :smallfrown: I'm not speaking for Tormsskull here, but I do think the fighter (and all other classes) should have weaknesses. That's why we group up and adventure in a party! To me the problem with the fighter is that he doesn't have any significant strengths compared to other classes.

This isn't meant as a knock against the class you've built either, overall it's a good class. It may be slightly more powerful than the ToB classes, but not much.

Guess I'm just old school enough to hope for a fighter who doesn't have any magical abilites but can still be fun and versatile.

[Bears With Lasers]

Overcome Limitation, this alone is broken

I'm afraid I can't take you seriously if that's all you say. How will this break a game? How will this make a Fighter significantly ahead of a Warblade or Cleric of his level?

[Bears With Lasers]

In some ways I agree with Tormsskull. Not that fighters don't need a boost, they do. But their abilities shouldn't be supernatural affects or even supernatural in flavor while labeled extraordinary. Once you give them supernatural abilities they lose much of the fighter flavor...just as the ToB classes have.
I tried to represent most of them as just plain toughness, dedicated training, or Sheer Force Of Will. The Sheer Force Of Will ones are (Su), because Force Of Will isn't really that different from, say, a monk's ki powers. I could make them (Ex) and change the flavor a little--but do you really think that the fighter (who's loaded down with magic items anyway) being able to do something through Sheer Effort/Skill and it being (Su) breaks the overall flavor that badly?


I'm not speaking for Tormsskull here, but I do think the fighter (and all other classes) should have weaknesses. That's why we group up and adventure in a party! To me the problem with the fighter is that he doesn't have any significant strengths compared to other classes.
Well, yeah. The fighter still has weaknesses. Being able to probably make one save a round doesn't negate that. The point is, those weaknesses shouldn't be so glaringly crippling.


This isn't meant as a knock against the class you've built either, overall it's a good class. It may be slightly more powerful than the ToB classes, but not much.
I wouldn't necessarily bet on one of these against a ToB class. Maneuvers get stronger, are useable in wider ways, and can be used more than once a round (stance/counter/boost/strike). I do think that it would be close, a fairly balanced fight.


Guess I'm just old school enough to hope for a fighter who doesn't have any magical abilites but can still be fun and versatile.
Half the (Su) abilities here can be made (Ex); you can ignore the other half. The thing is, the fighter will never be able to keep up without *some* kind of exceptional abilities. I went for the "justify it through badassery" route.

[erewhon]

Well, this seems to be percolating nicely for now. :) I took the liberty of writing up the suggested Arts I submitted in a format that matches what bear is presenting: I rather tried to stick close to the flavor of the Fighter with these, so many of them are quite simple. I also tried to put in something that improves both TWF and Sword and Board in one go: I'm not sure it works smoothly this way, but see what folks think. :D

Approve, dissaprove, suggest, etc: :)

Simple Arts of War:

Overcome Obstacle: Divided Grasp (Ex) - When the Fighter is fighting with a seperate object (either a weapon or shield) in each hand, he applies a +1 bonus to hit with all attacks made with those objects, and +1 to Armor Class from any shield wielded.

Improve Self: Mightiness (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds one point of Strength.

Improve Self: Fleetness (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds one point of Dexterity.

Improve Self: Solidity (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds one point of Constitution.

Improve Resistance: Will (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds one to all Will saves.

Improve Resistance: Reflex (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds one to all Reflex saves.

Improve Resistance: Fortitude (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds one to all Fortitude saves.

Overcome Obstacle: Distance (Ex) - The Fighters primary move ability improves by ten feet. His Swim speed (if possible) also improves by 5 feet.

Overcome Obstacle: Breaking (Ex) - The Fighter gains a +3 bonus to all rolls to break objects. Any roll made against a Break DC gains the above bonus, which stacks with all other bonuses.


Advanced Arts of War:

Overcome Obstacle: Disjoined Grips (Ex) - When the Fighter is fighting with a seperate object (either a weapon or shield) in each hand, he applies a +1 bonus to hit with all attacks made with those objects, and +1 to Armor Class from any shield wielded.

Perfect Self: Mightiness (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two points of Strength.

Perfect Self: Fleetness (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two points of Dexterity.

Perfect Self: Solidity (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two points of Constitution.

Perfect Resistance: Will (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two to all Will saves.

Perfect Resistance: Reflex (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two to all Reflex saves.

Perfect Resistance: Fortitude (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two to all Fortitude saves.

Overcome Obstacle: Breadth (Ex) – The Fighters primary move ability improves by twenty feet. His Swim speed (if possible) also improves by 10 feet. While this Art has no prerequisite, it's benefits do stack with the Simple Art: Overcome Obstacle:Distance for a total bonus of thirty feet of primary move and fifteen feet of Swim speed if both are taken.

Overcome Obstacle: Smashing (Ex) - The Fighter gains a +5 bonus to all rolls to break objects. Any roll made against a Break DC gains the above bonus, which stacks with all other bonuses.


Complex Arts of War:

Overcome Obstacle: Grasp Asunder (Ex) - When the Fighter is fighting with a seperate object (either a weapon or shield) in each hand, he applies a +1 bonus to hit with all attacks made with those objects, and +1 to Armor Class from any shield wielded.

Pinnacle Self: Mightiness (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two points of Strength.

Pinnacle Self: Fleetness (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two points of Dexterity.

Pinnacle Self: Solidity (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two points of Constitution.

Pinnacle Resistance: Will (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two to all Will saves.

Pinnacle Resistance: Reflex (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two to all Reflex saves.

Pinnacle Resistance: Fortitude (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two to all Fortitude saves.

Overcome Obstacle: Shattering (Ex) - The Fighter gains a +7 bonus to all rolls to break objects. Any roll made against a Break DC gains the above bonus, which stacks with all other bonuses.

Overcome Obstacle: Vastness (Ex) - The Fighters primary move ability improves by thirty feet. His Swim speed (if possible) also improves by 15 feet. While this Art has no prerequisite, its benefits do stack with all the lower Arts granting move speed for a total bonus of sixty feet of primary move and thirty feet of Swim speed if all three are taken.

Peerless Arts of War:

Overcome Obstacle: Dichotomous Perfection (Ex), prerequisites Disjoined Grips and Grasp Asunder - When the Fighter is fighting with a seperate object (either a weapon or shield) in each hand, all such objects are treated as if they were one size smaller than they really were. Examples include Two Weapon Fighting with two Bastard Swords, which with an Exotic Weapon Proficiency, are considered light weapons. A Greatsword in the primary hand (considered one-handed) and a longsword in the offhand (considered light) is also possible. Conversely, it is possible to wield a Greatsword in the primary hand and a Tower Shield (which protects as a Tower shield, but encumbers as a heavy shield) in the other hand. This Art does not allow the fighter to use weapons larger than the size of the wielder, unless additional feats or abilities are applied. Note that all feats, damages, and item effects are applied to the weapon or shield borne as if they were their adjusted size, but abilities consider the weapons their normal size. Thus, Power Attack is applied to a greatsword wielded in one hand as if it were a one-handed weapon, but Strength bonuses are applied as if it were a normal Two-handed weapon.


If these seem okay, I'll fold them into a full listing and post the whole kit-and-kaboodle. :)

[erewhon]

I see a few generic problems with these "fixes" to the fighter. First, if you feel the fighter is vastly underpowered compared to spellcasters, why not just eliminate the fighter class and replace it with one of these tome of battle classes that you feel is on par with spellcasters?

Because, while the mechanics are "interesting" for those, the flavor is just all wrong. The whole temples of swords, nine paths stuff is just not fightery at all. We want a two-fisted, iron-jawed Sgt. Rock sort of steely-eyed hard-hitter.

Not a guy with a bad Will save who flees combats. Slowly, because of all the armor. :D



This class does not feel like a "fighter" anymore. A fighter's niche should be physical defense, physical attacks, and endurance.

Then here's an idea: Offer a constructive suggestion as to how YOU think it should look.

But honestly, I don't see any basis for your complaint. Which, if any, of these Arts are NOT directly related to physicality or endurance? There are no self-healing Arts presented. No manifesting blasts of fire and hurling them across the room. No flying around on wires. Yes, there are Arts which destroy spells....BY HITTING THEM. :) I mean, come on! :D


If I felt that the fighter was vastly underpowered to full spellcasters (To be honest, playing Core only I have never encountered this problem. My group tends to play more traditionally I guess, the cleric/druid heals/buffs the party, the mage/sorceror casts attacking spells/debuffs the enemy, etc) then I would try to buff the fighter's strengths up rather than buffing their weaknesses up.

If you have played Core only, and have a low-level game, then sure, I can see where you'd make this point. Sadly, many others do not have those conditions. High level Wizards are enormously flashy, area-of-effect combatants who can prepare vast "alpha strikes."

The only way high level fighters can even sort-of keep up is with a razor-sharp, narrowly defined build with almost every magic item custom built. CAN it be done? Sure. But it is obvious that the gaming demographic doesn't want to, and there's a lot of "pushback" on the best balancing items that Fighters have access to, anyway.

Not to mention, custom items are frankly scary, and it takes a strong-handed DM to keep that can of worms under control.

A much safer approach is to either A) Jack up fighter-only feats to make them MIGHTY. (See Weapon Supremacy for a small step down this road.) Or B) add more properly flavored "stuff" to the Fighter, with an eye to pulling up the rest of the Core melee classes along the way.



If the goal is to make fighter versus wizard viable then I have to ask, why?

I am reasonably certain no one in this thread has mentioned "fighter vs wizard." This isn't about fighter vs wizard. This is about fighter vs. dragon. :)


D&D's intent has never been solo combat or "one on one arena matches." D&D combat has been about a PC party defeating an enemy party. If the fighter becomes pointless after X level then I have to think that is a problem with the DM designing the encounters.

An interesting point. Does the DM have a duty to nerf monsters? Look at the Intelligence stat for Dragons, for example. They are not stupid. They are centuries old, monstrously evil, hugely experienced, and vastly powerful.



IMO when it comes to power levels a fighter and a wizard aren't vastly different.

With access to the proper customized toys, you are correct. But those are some very, very scary toys. :)


When it comes to an optimized fighter versus an optimized wizard, then the wizard is likely to become exponentially more powerful than the fighter.

Not really, but they will both be MIGHTY compared to what most folks are playing. That said, it is much easier to approach optimum Wizard power via simple spell selections than it is to approach optimum Fighter power because you have to design and get made the proper items.

WOTC has done a LOT more work on wizard spells than they have items. How many "item compendium" books are there, again? :D


But as a player in a cooperative game, why would you want to make your friend that you're playing with be completely useless because you got an A+ in D&D Min/Maxing class?


Well, it doesn't take an A+ Min-Maxer. A C- student is brutally effective. A single two-spell combo, for example: Solid Fog plus all the lightning bolts you can memorize. And don't get me started on the mischief you can get up to with Charm Person!

Now, compare that very simple fog tactic above to any of the Arts as presented. Which handles that horde of charging Giants better?

[erewhon]

Well, given the silence so far, I'll assume the additions I came up with were well received? :)

As promised, here I will post the combined list. I took the liberty of neatening up, adding a few clarifications, and in one case (Soul of Battle) I moved the re-roll ability to its own seperate Art (called Steely Eye.) I also slightly adjusted the power levels of one of the movement Arts, weakening it a bit. I also left out the two Charge-oriented Arts that I happen to disagree with: If folks really want them, put them back with no changes. There's not anything wrong with them, I just happen the feel they're a bit to narrow in focus and feats already address that aspect of combat very well.

I also added two new Arts, Overcome Influence: Temperature and Overcome Influence: Orientation. See what folks think. :)

---------------------------------------------------------



Simple Arts of War

Overcome Difficulty: Weapon Size (Ex) - The Fighter learns to make the most of powerful swings,
regardless of the weapon or weapons he is wielding. When using the Power Attack feat, the
fighter may add one and a half times the number subtracted from his attack rolls (rounded down)
to the damage of a one-handed weapon and one times the number subtracted from his attack rolls
(rounded down) to the damage of a light weapon.

Overcome Obstacle: Divided Grasp (Ex) - When the Fighter is fighting with a seperate object
(either a weapon or shield) in each hand, he applies a +1 bonus to hit with all attacks made
with those objects, and +1 to Armor Class from any shield wielded.

Improve Self: Mightiness (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds one point of Strength.
Ability points gained from this and other Arts stack with all other sources of ability gain.

Improve Self: Fleetness (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds one point of Dexterity.
Ability points gained from this and other Arts stack with all other sources of ability gain.

Improve Self: Solidity (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds one point of Constitution.
Ability points gained from this and other Arts stack with all other sources of ability gain.

Improve Resistance: Will (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds one to all Will saves.

Improve Resistance: Reflex (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds one to all Reflex saves.

Improve Resistance: Fortitude (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds one to all Fortitude
saves.

Fleche (Ex) - When charging, the Fighter does not provoke any attacks of opportunity.

Overcome Limitation: Size (Ex) - The Fighter may receive or increase size bonuses (but not
penalties), except those to physical attributes, or reduce size penalties (without affecting
bonuses), as though he was one size category smaller or larger than he is, at will; he may
switch from one to the other as an immediate action. (See Creature Sizes table, page 4 of
Monster Manual 2 for the relevant bonuses.) This Art does not permit him to use weapons sized
for creatures of a size category different from his own without penalty, but it can help a great
deal in grappling. This Art also allows the Fighter to calculate his encumbrance as if he were
one size category larger or smaller than he is, effectively doubling his carrying capacity in
most cases.

Expert Flanker (Ex): If the Fighter and an ally are both threatening a creature, they are
considered to be flanking it. The fighter may provide flanking to more than one ally in this
way, but he only receives the normal +2 flanking bonus, regardless. This more than one Expert
Flanker is threatening a target, they may not choose each other as Allies, but they may all
choose one or more Allies, in which case, all the bonuses stack.

Overcome Obstacle: Terrain (Ex) - The Fighter may treat difficult terrain as though it was
regular terrain, thus being subject to none of the limitations of or penalties applied to
creatures in difficult terrain.

Overcome Obstacle: Distance (Ex) - The Fighters primary move ability improves by ten feet. His
Swim speed (if possible) also improves by 5 feet.

Overcome Obstacle: Breaking (Ex) - The Fighter gains a +3 bonus to all rolls to break objects.
Any roll made against a Break DC gains the above bonus, which stacks with all other bonuses.

Disciplined Will (Ex) - The Fighter battles mental influences fiercely; when he fails a saving
throw against a mind-affecting spell or effect, the effect is delayed by a round. It does not
apply until the same point during the following round. This does not count against the effects
duration. Despite the suspension of effect, it is possible that the effect can be dispelled,
overcome, suppressed, or otherwise removed during this delay time.

Battle Learning: Magic (Ex) - The Fighter studies spellcasting enemies, allies, or both,
learning to identify their spells so that he can better deal with them. He adds half his class
levels, rounded up, as a competence bonus on Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana checks, but only
in regards to spells being cast. Note that the Fighter must have at least one rank of the
relevant skill before she can roll at all.

Battle Learning: Alertness (Ex) - The Fighter trains to hear and notice things others might
overlook, the better to see his enemy coming while he stands guard over his sleeping companions.
He adds half his class levels, rounded up, as a competence bonus on Spot and Listen checks.
Note that the Fighter need not have ranks of the relevant skill before he can roll with this
bonus.

Battle Learning: Acrobatics (Ex) - The Fighter trains to perform feats of acrobatics and
mobility in battle and other situations while armored. His armor check penalty does not apply to
his Jump, Balance, Tumble, and Climb skills. Note that the Fighter must have at least one rank
of the relevant skill before he can roll with this bonus.

Weapon Aptitude (Ex) - The Fighter has the flexibility to adjust his weapon training. He can
spend 1 full day (8 uninterrupted hours, no other activity may be undertaken at the same time
besides resting) in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat he has that
applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). He must have the newly designated weapon
available during his practice session to make this change. For example, if he wishes to change
the designated weapon for his Weapon Focus feat from greatsword to longsword, he must have a
longsword available to practice with during his practice session. He can adjust any number of
his feats in this way, and he doesn't have to adjust them all in the same way. However, he
can't change the weapon choices in such a way that he no longer meets the prerequisite for some
other feat he possesses. For instance, if he has both Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon
Specialization (longsword), he can't change the designated weapon for Weapon Focus unless he
also changes the weapon for Weapon Specialization in the same way. All of these changes take a
full day for each feat, and if this process is interrupted in the middle, the fighter does not
have access to any of the affected feats until he can finish his adjustment training.


Advanced Arts of War:

Overcome Influence: Wind (Ex) - The Fighter has learned to compensate for the wind when he
shoots a bow; he may treat wind force as two categories lower (i.e. Severe instead of Hurricane)
when determining how they affect his ranged attacks, and may fire arrows or bolts through a Wind
Wall spell or equivalent effect as though they were any other normal ranged or thrown weapon
with the normal 30 percent miss chance.

Overcome Influence: Temperature (Ex) - The Fighter has learned to compensate for extremes of
heat and cold when he is in the field. He is no longer affected by any extreme of heat or cold
that is unable to inflict damage, and gains ER 5 versus all environmental damage caused by heat
or cold, even against such inimical places as the Elemental Planes.

Overcome Influence: Orientation (Ex) - The Fighter has learned to compensate for odd and awkward
disruptions to his combat stance. He is able to fight while prone, while swimming, while
floating, while squeezed in narrow spaces, while one or more of his senses are damaged or
disrupted(as under blindness or deafness) all without penalty. This Art does not affect
grapples, restraints, or being helpless.

Overcome Obstacle: Disjoined Grips (Ex) - When the Fighter is fighting with a seperate object
(either a weapon or shield) in each hand, he applies a +1 bonus to hit with all attacks made
with those objects, and +1 to Armor Class from any shield wielded. These bonuses stack with
those gained from Divided Grasp, if that Art is also taken.

Perfect Self: Mightiness (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two points of Strength.
Ability points gained from this and other Arts stack with all other sources of ability gain.

Perfect Self: Fleetness (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two points of Dexterity.
Ability points gained from this and other Arts stack with all other sources of ability gain.

Perfect Self: Solidity (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two points of Constitution.
Ability points gained from this and other Arts stack with all other sources of ability gain.

Perfect Resistance: Will (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two to all Will saves.

Perfect Resistance: Reflex (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two to all Reflex saves.

Perfect Resistance: Fortitude (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two to all Fortitude
saves.

Overcome Difficulty: Freedom Arcana (Ex) - The Fighter has either had his attempts to grapple an
enemy thwarted by the Freedom of Movement spell, or witnessed an ally use such a spell to keep
himself safe from grapples. In order to overcome this, the Fighter has developed a complex
technique that allows him to defeat the spell’s influence. When the Fighter grapples an enemy
under the effects of the Freedom of Movement spell or something that duplicates its effects, his
opponent receives +15 on grapple checks made to resist a grapple and grapple checks or Escape
Artist checks made to escape a grapple, rather than automatically succeeding on those checks as
the spell would normally allow him to do.

Overcome Obstacle: Smashing (Ex) - The Fighter gains a +5 bonus to all rolls to break objects.
Any roll made against a Break DC gains the above bonus, which stacks with all other bonuses.

Overcome Limitation: Reach (Ex) - The Fighter trains to attack while positioning, lunge, and
fight in close quarters. As a swift action, the Fighter may increase his reach by 5 feet for one
round. A Fighter wielding a reach weapon may also take an immediate action to decrease his
reach, allowing him to threaten as though he were not wielding a reach weapon. While his reach
is increased or decreased, the Fighter takes a ?2 penalty to AC. The fighter may restore his
reach to normal as an immediate action.

Overcome Obstacle: Breadth (Ex) - The Fighters primary move ability improves by twenty feet. His
Swim speed (if possible) also improves by 10 feet. While this Art has no prerequisite, it's
benefits do stack with the Simple Art: Overcome Obstacle:Distance for a total bonus of thirty
feet of primary move and fifteen feet of Swim speed if both are taken.

Tactical Awareness (Ex) - The Fighter learns to be aware of the precise details of the
battlefield positions of those around him, gaining the ability to pinpoint the unseen. He gains
Blindsense 30’ when in combat, which becomes Blindsight 50’ at level 15; however, any creature
that has taken no actions on its last round can not be detected by this Blindsense or
Blindsight. While the Fighter’s sight or hearing is impaired, such as if he is Blinded,
Deafened, in the area of effect of a Darkness spell, he loses his Blindsense; at level 15, his
Blindsight is reduced to Blindsense, instead.

Heart of Battle (Ex) - The Fighter is hardened against the horror and din of battle and the
debilitating effects of spells. He becomes Sickened instead of Nauseated, Shaken instead of
Frightened, Frightened instead of Panicked, Stunned instead of Paralyzed, Dazed instead of
Stunned or Cowering, Staggered instead of Dazed, Fatigued instead of Exhausted, Ability Damaged
instead of Ability Drained, and Fascinated instead of Confused. If something would normally
inflict the Shaken, Fatigued, or Sickened conditions on him, the Fighter remains unaffected. All
such conditions retain their normal durations, and the fighter may only mitigate or negate a
number of conditions equal to 3+his Charisma bonus, either positive or negative, at a time. If
the Fighters Cha bonus is lower than -2, this Art is useless.

Spell-Shattering Strike (Ex) - The Fighter has fought wizards and learned the power of their
spells?and how to combat it. When wielding a magic weapon, he may forego the damage on any
attack he makes to strip away a spell currently in effect on the target; if he succeeds on an
opposed caster level check, substituting his base attack bonus for his caster level (normally
0), he may dispel a single spell currently in effect on his target. If the fighter is wielding a
weapon made of Cold Iron, he receives a +5 circumstance bonus on this check. At level 15, he may
also make a single attack as a full-round action, and if it hits, he may attempt to dispel all
spells currently on the target instead of doing damage; to do this, he must succeed on a check
of 1d20+class level+5 opposed by a caster level check from the caster of the spell for each
spell in effect on his target.

Willful Resistance (Ex) - The Fighter is a disciplined warrior who can use that discipline to
batter through spells or effects that might harm them. As an immediate action, the Fighter can
replace a single saving throw with a concentration check. This power may be invoked as often as
the Fighter has immediate actions available.

Basic Mastery: the Fighter may select three Arts of War from the Simple Arts of War list.


Complex Arts of War:

Overcome Difficulty: Weakness (Ex) - The Fighter knows that his place is on the front line, and
he pushes his body beyond its normal capabilities to stay there, come hells or high water. The
Fighter automatically reduces any penalty (whether environment-based, magical, or other) applied
to his attack rolls, ability scores, and saving throws while in combat by 3+his Constitution
bonus, if any. He may only reduce a number of penalties equal to his Constitution bonus or 1,
whichever is greater, at a time; however, he selects which penalties to apply the reduction to.
As soon as the current combat ends, all penalties take full effect for their full durations.

Overcome Obstacle: Grasp Asunder (Ex) - When the Fighter is fighting with a seperate object
(either a weapon or shield) in each hand, he applies a +1 bonus to hit with all attacks made
with those objects, and +1 to Armor Class from any shield wielded. These bonuses stack with
those gained from Divided Grasp and or Disjoined Grips, if either or both of those Arts is also
taken.

Pinnacle Self: Mightiness (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two points of Strength.
Ability points gained from this and other Arts stack with all other sources of ability gain.

Pinnacle Self: Fleetness (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two points of Dexterity.
Ability points gained from this and other Arts stack with all other sources of ability gain.

Pinnacle Self: Solidity (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two points of Constitution.
Ability points gained from this and other Arts stack with all other sources of ability gain.

Pinnacle Resistance: Will (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two to all Will saves.

Pinnacle Resistance: Reflex (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two to all Reflex saves.

Pinnacle Resistance: Fortitude (Ex) - The Fighter who takes this Art adds two to all Fortitude
saves.

Overcome Obstacle: Shattering (Ex) - The Fighter gains a +7 bonus to all rolls to break objects.
Any roll made against a Break DC gains the above bonus, which stacks with all other bonuses.

Overcome Obstacle: Vastness (Ex) - The Fighters primary move ability improves by twenty feet.
His Swim speed (if possible) also improves by 15 feet. While this Art has no prerequisite, its
benefits do stack with all the lower Arts granting move speed for a total bonus of fifty feet of
primary move and thirty feet of Swim speed if all three are taken.

Tactical Reflexes (Ex) - The Fighter knows when to strike, lightning-fast, at a sudden opening;
as an immediate action, he may take an attack action at his full BAB, even when it is not his
turn. This Art may be used in a round during which the Fighter has used another attack action,
either a standard or full attack, as long as the Fighter has an available immediate action.
This Art may not be used on the same initiative as when the Fighter uses another attack action
of any sort. It may be used on any other initiative, both before or after the Fighters
initiative, without affecting the Fighters initiative.

Shattering Blow (Ex) - By focusing and making a single strike rather than several, the Fighter
may inflict a devastating blow. As a full-round action, he may make a single attack that ignores
the DR and hardness of its target and deals +10d6 damage, +1d6 for every two Fighter levels
above 10th.

Seize the Initiative (Ex) - Even if initially surprised or he has delayed his action for
tactical purposes, the Fighter can react faster than almost anyone else. As a swift action, the
fighter gains a competence bonus to initiative equal to his class level. This Art may only be
invoked once per combat, unless the Fighter has elected to delay his initiative, in which case
it may be used repeatedly to raise his initiative to a maximum of his initiative die roll plus
initiative modifiers plus his fighter class level.

Steely Eye (Ex) - The Fighter may as an immediate action reroll one attack roll. Whatever
result is obtained on the second roll replaces the result of the first roll.

Overcome Limitation: Size Difference (Ex) - The Fighter has learned complex techniques that
allow him to match strengths with or topple even enormous opponents. Any creature making an
opposed check against the Fighter does not get to add size bonuses to its check. Additionally,
the fighter may attempt to grapple creatures up to three size categories larger, instead of just
one.

Overcome Obstacle: Bindings (Ex) - The Fighter is capable of focusing his will and brushing
aside anything holding him back. As a standard action, the Fighter may grant himself a Freedom
of Movement (as per the spell) effect that lasts for a number of rounds equal to the fighter’s
class level.

Mind of Battle (Ex) - The Fighter is an excellent judge of his own skill, and capable of
continuously excellent performance. As an immediate action, the Fighter may “take 10” on any one
attack roll, opposed check, or saving throw while in combat.

Tactical Positioning (Ex) - The Fighter has learned how to position himself while fighting; with
each successful attack he makes, he may take a free five-foot step that does not count against
his limit of one five-foot step per round. This ability applies once per successful attack roll
made if an ability allows the Fighter to make multiple attacks with a single attack roll (for
example, the Manyshot feat), the Fighter receives a single five-foot step if the attack roll
succeeds. The fighter may not move further than his current move speed with these five-foot
steps.

Spell-Parrying Steel (Ex) - The Fighter has dealt with enough spellcasters to learn to react to
their spells and send them hurtling away. When the figher is the target of a ranged touch
attack with a spell or spell-like ability and is wielding a magic weapon, he may, as an
immediate action, make an attack roll (with a +5 circumstance bonus if the weapon he is parrying
with is made of Cold Iron) versus a DC of 10+ the spell’s caster level+ the spellcaster’s
casting ability modifier. If he succeeds, the spell is deflected and dissipates harmlessly as it
rebounds off of the Fighter’s weapon.

Advanced Mastery - The Fighter may select two Arts of War from the Advanced Arts of War list.
The Fighter may choose to select Basic Mastery using this Art, even if he has already taken that
Art, and thus gain one Advanced Art and three additional Simple Arts.

Peerless Arts of War:

Peerless Reactions (Ex), prerequisites Willful Resistance, Tactical Reflexes - The Fighter has a
mental focus greater than any opponent, allowing him to react much faster than others. He gains
a second swift or immediate action, now able to take two in a round rather than the one he could
normally.

Peerless Awareness (Ex), prerequisites Seize the Initiative and Tactical Awareness - The Fighter
has developed an awareness of the field so perfect it is greater than supernatural. The Fighter
now always adds a competence bonus equal to his one-half class level to his initiative checks,
and the Blindsense or Blindsight granted by Tactical Awareness increase to 60’. Additionally, he
cannot be surprised.

Overcome Obstacle: Dichotomous Perfection (Ex), prerequisites Disjoined Grips and Grasp Asunder
- When the Fighter is fighting with a seperate object (either a weapon or shield) in each hand,
all such objects are treated as if they were one size smaller than they really were. Examples
include Two Weapon Fighting with two Bastard Swords, which with an Exotic Weapon Proficiency,
are considered light weapons. A Greatsword in the primary hand (considered one-handed) and a
longsword in the offhand (considered light) is also possible. Conversely, it is possible to
wield a Greatsword in the primary hand and a Tower Shield (which protects as a Tower shield, but
encumbers as a heavy shield) in the other hand. This Art does not allow the fighter to use
weapons larger than the size of the wielder, unless additional feats or abilities are applied.
Note that all feats, damages, and item effects are applied to the weapon or shield borne as if
they were their adjusted size, but abilities consider the weapons their normal size. Thus,
Power Attack is applied to a greatsword wielded in one hand as if it were a one-handed weapon,
but Strength bonuses are applied as if it were a normal Two-handed weapon.

Soul of Battle (Ex), prerequisites Heart of Battle and Mind of Battle - The Fighter is a master
of battle, his force of will making his body far tougher than it seems. He automatically suceeds
on saves vs. massive damage, does not fail saving throws on a natural 1, is immune to critical
hits, [Death] spells and negative levels.

Spell-Destroying Steel (Ex), prerequisites Spell-Shattering Strike and Spell-Parrying Steel -
The Fighter has trained long and hard to be able to combat mages; when using Spell-Parrying
Steel, he may also parry spells that target him (but not area-of-effect spells such as Fireball)
even if they don’t involve a ranged touch attack. Additionally, he may, as an immediate action,
cause any spell or spell-like ability producing a force effect in any square the fighter
threatens to fail, unless the caster succeeds on a caster level check, DC 10 +the fighter's
character level (+5 more if the fighter is wielding a weapon made of cold iron).
Spell-Destroying Steel may be used to destroy force effects either as they are cast, or after
they are already in effect. This Art can only be used on a given force effect once, and if the
force effect is not destroyed, it remains in place.

Peerless Tactics (Ex), prerequisites Tactical Reflexes, Lightning Reactions - The Fighter can
influence the course of an entire battle, gaining a tactical advantage; as a result, he can
spend an immediate action to make a full attack once per encounter.

[Aximili]

OK, I hope I'm not raising the dead here, but I simply have to say this.

Bears with lasers,
Eventhough I'll never be able to play this, I absolutely love your way of thinking. There are a few things there that I'd change, but mostly I find it very creative. I trully whish you worked at wizards.

[Icewalker]

I love it, I like this class way more than the original fighter one.
Considering that they still get bonus feats on top of the arts of war, it may be slightly overpowered for a base class, but you could even give it a little bit more then make it a prestige class, or something, but I like it as a base class.

I actually came up with EXACTLY the same idea with the getting a 5-foot step every attack move, and had included it in a class, The Shang Warrior, which I recently posted.

[Caewil]

Yet again, much brilliance. I have this bookmarked, and I use it to balance other melee classes against.

[Morchaint]

I like it. could be overused, or overpowered. Ive noticed fighter class is either a. used for someone who doesnt know the game very well. b. someone who wants to smash things. c. a person who just wants the armor and weapon abilities. and then they go off, and multiclass. not to say that you cant kick things and take names if you do it right, but.. oh well..

I feel you need more for people who choose to use thrown/ranged weapons. ty.

[Arbitrarity]

I tried showing this to my DM :)

There was a lot of sputtering and "You can't just add stuff to a class, and not take anything away!!" :smallbiggrin:

[Cybren]

I tried showing this to my DM :)

There was a lot of sputtering and "You can't just add stuff to a class, and not take anything away!!" :smallbiggrin:

But... but... there wasn't anything there to begin with!

[magic8BALL]

...yes there was.

The fighter class is boring, yes.

This version spices it up, sure.

Was the fighter class underpowered? Not if you do it right.

Is this overpowered? Only if you know how to take feats, otherwise its just very powerful.

Your idea, "add some stuff to the fighter", is fine... I just think it's gone a little too far. The arts of war I read look like advanced feats to me... you just doubled a fighters power. Not balanced.

...and whats overpowering about a level 15 wizard..? Sure, 8th level spells... maybe 2 or 3 times a day. Against 15 levels of this variant, thats nothing!

[Last_resort_33]

This goes just perfectly with the paladin fix... I'm making a little collection

[Bears With Lasers]

...yes there was.

The fighter class is boring, yes.

This version spices it up, sure.

Was the fighter class underpowered? Not if you do it right.
I consider myself a capable optimizer.
I am nevertheless incapable of building a non-archery-based Core fighter who can contribute meaningfully (compared to decently but not optimally built party members) against an intelligently-played Balor or CR 20 Dragon. Against a Marilith, it's possible--but you have to use a lot of cheese (Shock Trooper/Elusive Target/Karmic Strike, Power Attack/Leap Attack), and frankly the demon can just avoid you or break your weapon or school you in melee.


Is this overpowered? Only if you know how to take feats, otherwise its just very powerful.So build me a level 15 and 20 fighter, without this, capable of contributing significantly to CR-appropriate encounters. At the upper end you have things like old dragons and the balor and pit fiend, against which a fighter is pretty much totally helpless, because he can't get to them to hit them. The Balor's combat strategy is outlined in the SRD; what can the fighter do about it?


Your idea, "add some stuff to the fighter", is fine... I just think it's gone a little too far. The arts of war I read look like advanced feats to me... you just doubled a fighters power. Not balanced.
Yes, I did. Doubling a fighter's power is balanced, because the fighter is so weak. He has very few strengths, coming from feats other people can also take, and a ton of weaknesses, some crippling at high levels. This will make the fighter outshine, say, the Barbarian or Paladin, sure. Will this make them the equals of clerics or druids or Tome of Battle Martial Adepts (who are balanced melee types) or rogues (a core class that is best-in-class at its job and pretty dang effective in melee, between sneak attack and Use Magic Device) and so on? Yeah.


...and whats overpowering about a level 15 wizard..? Sure, 8th level spells... maybe 2 or 3 times a day. Against 15 levels of this variant, thats nothing!What's overpowering about a level 15 wizard? Forcecage (free via Greater Shadow Evocation) or Wall of Stone + Cloudkill. Empowered Split Ray Enervation followed by a save-or-die that is guaranteed to work with the -3d4 to saves those negative levels imposed. Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement followed by (perhaps Split) Ray of Exhaustion to render a non-high-STR creature helpless or make a melee creature almost useless.
Scintillating Pattern, which can Confuse enemies succeptible to it with no save. Solid Fog to trap things, no save, no SR. Replusion, Overland Flight, Phantom Steed, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door, Mind Blank to provide an insurmountable array of defenses. Polymorph. Dimensional Anchor, which can pin down demons where a Fighter has no hope of doing so. Confusion and Fear, which at earlier levels could end entire fights by themselves. Feeblemind, a better offense against enemy casters than any a fighter has. Telekinesis, with a wide variety of uses. Save-or-lose spells to target whichever save is weak. Polymorph Any Object, to (cheesily) turn into something with a very high INT. The wizard can do pretty much *anything*. There is no opponent he is at a loss against.
Meanwhile, the fighter is faced with enemies who are so mobile he can't catch them, and who can out-melee him if he *does* catch them, and there are tons of ways to disable him.

I have played both spellcasters and pure fighters. At ECL 10, my pure Fighter was dominating melee... except when we encountered very large monsters (more prevalent at higher levels), or any kind of enemy requiring me to make a will save. Core-only, there is nothing you can do to change this. Outside of coure, you can waste half your feats on shoring up your defenses, and thus have no real advantage in melee over another class taking melee feats.

[Yakk]

Just because Wizards have "I win" buttons, it doesn't mean you should balance Fighters against them.

It means Wizards are broken.

See:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32637
for an attempt to pull back wizard power.

The highest party level hits 10, but lower level monsters do more damage and have more HP (as to player characters). Levels above 10 become "epic" -- monsters above L 10 exist, but they are the big bad scary things that your party should take on with an army and/or arrows of slaying.

[Bears With Lasers]

I'm not balancing fighters against wizards. I'm balancing fighters against the Tome of Battle classes, Psychic Warriors, Psions, and other such fairly well-balanced classes. This fighter fix has no "I win" buttons. If you see one, point it out.

[magic8BALL]

It's I win buttons are I have 28 feats/feats like things at level 20, most of wich would stack.



Saves
Spell Resistance
Immunities
antimagic field

Fighter 28, wizard 0.

[Cybren]

Wizards have polymorph. And wish. And teleportation. And contingincies. And guess who's making all the fighters magic equipment?

[Fizban]

Having 28 feats is not a win button. Having a number of feat like things is not a win button, especially since "feat like things" is completely non-descriptive of what it is.

What a fighter needs is abilities that scale with level, like every other class in existance. Feats can, generally, be taken at very low levels. Those with high enough prerequisites to require high levels are still weaker than the class abilities of any other class.

For a longer post describing why the fighter needs fixing, see this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=781643). It analyses just why the fighter sucks, and compares it to the warblade, just as BWL has done.

[magic8BALL]

Yes... the follow up schpeel lables the fighter as a "level 4 dire threat", and attributes this to his feat to level ratio, 3:4. Also, he suggests that ride should be a class skill for fighters... I don't know why, cuz' last I checked, It was in the PHB v3.5 I have.

So at level 20, 15 feats sounds good, not 11 as the PHB has. Not the 28 feats and feat equivilancies this has. The Warblade, from what I can tell (never seen it), sems to be not only overpowered, but exactly the same as this!

[MeklorIlavator]

How many feats or feat equivalences does the Monk, druid, Rogue, or Wizard have? How would one calculate a spell level? Or calculate the abilities of the Initiate of the Seven fold veil?

[magic8BALL]

...how do you calculate the flexibility the fighter has compared to the Monk, druid, Rogue or Wizard? And PrC's are suposted to have more power... thats the point of them.

[Bears With Lasers]

It's I win buttons are I have 28 feats/feats like things at level 20, most of wich would stack.
No, see, just saying it doesn't make it true. Go on, build me a fighter 20 that can contribute meaningfully against a balor or CR 20 dragon.
having lots of class abilities isn't an "I win" button. They have to actually let you win. I described how the wizard wins. If you think the fighter is that great



Saves
Spell Resistance
Immunities
antimagic field

Fighter 28, wizard 0.Um. The fighter has crappy saves. Fort is good, but its will and reflex saves are gimped. If you're not core-only, you can spend a bunch of feats fixing that, but it still won't be great. Go on, build me that Fighter 20 who has a good will save in addition to being able to contribute meaningfully in a CR20 encounter.
Spell Resistance? Where does the fighter get spell resistance? Where does he get enough to matter? A wizard beats SR = his level +10 half the time. With the Assay Resistance spell, he beats it always. Add Spell Resistance and caster level boosters, and yeah. Oh, and let's not forget about those lovely spells that don't allow SR.
Immunities? Where's the fighter getting those? How is he becoming immune to Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion, to Enervation, to cloudkill, to being trapped inside a Wall of Stone or Forcecage? How is he becoming immune to summoned or called monsters who can fight better than he does?
Antimagic Field? Where does the fighter get one? He can't cast it. If he does cast it, the wizard can just fly up and pummel him with instantaneous conjuration spells like the Orb of X spells.

If you're talking about what enemies have, a wizard can target weak saves, bypass immunities with different spells, beat SR, and fly away from an Antimagic Field (which don't just pop up every encounter--you can expect to see one a few times a campaign at most).


...how do you calculate the flexibility the fighter has compared to the Monk, druid, Rogue or Wizard? And PrC's are suposted to have more power... thats the point of them.
Umm... I dunno, how do you? WHAT FLEXIBILITY? Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about. The fighter has lots of feats, but despite that, ALL he can do is hit things, trip things, and run up to things and hit them. That's not flexibility.
Meanwhile, the wizard can do ANYTHING.

I'm perfectly willing to take criticism of my fix; if something is broken or too good for its level, I appreciate it when people point it out. But that's from people who've come to realize some of the fundamental things about D&D.
Let's put it this way: the people at the Optimization Board think the Fighter is a terribly weak class. These are people who know the rules better than you, can optimize better than you, and can optimize fighters better than you. Don't you think they'd have a better idea of fighter/caster balance than you?
You need to put your money where your mouth is. You think Fighter 20 is so strong--prove it. Just what are these feats that let the fighter win? Shock Trooper? Sorry, not enough--and anyone can take that. Oh, yeah, that's another thing: all of the fighter's best abilities, meaning the best feats? Those are availible to everyone. That's part of the fighter's problem.
Feats are a crappy class feature. They're availible to everyone, they don't scale with your level, and, by and large, they suck. Just look at Weapon Focus--much less something completely useless. Some of them are better (Shock Trooper, Elusive Target) than the rest, but there's few enough of those that other people can have them. Finally, all they do is help the fighter hit things. They don't grant him the mobility, defenses, or options he needs. I tried to adress that with the Arts of War.

[pweent]

So at level 20, 15 feats sounds good, not 11 as the PHB has. Not the 28 feats and feat equivilancies this has. The Warblade, from what I can tell (never seen it), sems to be not only overpowered, but exactly the same as this!

I'm sorry, but how are you calculating these numbers? The only way I can come up with the number of abilities you're citing is by counting only fighter bonus feats for the fighter-as-written, but counting every feat and "art" for a human fighter using the revised rules. As I see it, the comparison is 18 feats for PHB and 28 for BWL's proposal. Am I missing something?

I'm not decided as to how reasonable this proposal is, but better to argue the proposal as it is rather than taking down a straw man. I do like the design goals, in particular the 20th level capstone and some special ability every level. If you accept the initial premise of the change, I think it could mostly by balanced by tweaking the individual Arts. I'll be considering it.

[magic8BALL]

BWL: you seem to think the wizard is blasting the fighter, and the bloke with the big lump of pointy adimant is swining it at the mage. Last I looked, the fighter and the wizard compliment each other, not fight each other.
Yes, in a small room with anitmagic, the wizard is hardly worth its CR, and yes, in the open with normal magic traits, the wizard has a clear advantage.
Point is, they are suposed to work together to take down the CR 20 Dragon, as it were.

So...

The dragon has the SR, the Saves, the ability to despel a wizards attacks, and the immunities to limit what a wizard wants to cast. The fighter steps up and hits the dragons amazingly small AC, takes the attacks and damage for the team, and provides a flank for the rouge to sneak attack. You want stats? Go read the Dungeon delve on the D&D website. The Dwarven Defender has AC 61 or somthing and well over 300 hp.


Meanwhile, the wizard can do ANYTHING.


...except stand in melee. Or take damage at range... even from another wizard.

I also dislike the personal hits at me. How can you judge me on how I play D&D when you have never met me, or seen one of my characters. Just becouse I dont post on the optimisation thread, dosn't mean I have never read a rule book. I know the rules. I work within the rules. When the fighter pops up, I dont automatically double what it's capable of for no reason, or complain that it is weak. I use it to augment another classes combat skills. By the time you get a level 20 melee combat character dealing 2d8+71 per hit over 10 attacks hitting with about half (even you or you optimisation buddies cant change a dice roll) and take down a Tarresque sigle handedly in 3 rounds, come back. Untill then, please do not abuse other people on the forums.

pweent: my 15 feats at level 20 is a proposal for a simple fix. 1 feat at evey level, except 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th. I'd even go so far as to say give em a d12 HD. Ignore the 7 feats from HD everyone gets.
OK, so my 28 should read 21 to be fair, for this proposal. I include the 11 bonus feats, the 10 arts of war. In my earlier post I included the feats everyone gets.

Perhaps the Fighter vs Wizard debate is not what this topic is about. Hence, I shall leave it there. Soon I will post my own fighter fix, and any and all may critique it when it comes.

For now, yes, the arts of war are a good idea, I just feel there are too many of them to balance with the barbarian, the other PHB melee class. This is what the fighter should be balanced against.

[Caewil]

The dragon has the SR, the Saves, the ability to despel a wizards attacks, and the immunities to limit what a wizard wants to cast. The fighter steps up and hits the dragons amazingly small AC, takes the attacks and damage for the team, and provides a flank for the rouge to sneak attack. You want stats? Go read the Dungeon delve on the D&D website. The Dwarven Defender has AC 61 or somthing and well over 300 hp.
No, it works something like this:

Wiz casts celerity then timestop. Spends one round dazed and uses the other to cast assay resistance. Then, Arcane Reached, maximized, empowered shivering touch. No save + dragon's horrible touch AC = GG Dragon. The fighter? Well, I suppose he can CDG it after the wizard's done working.


Yes, in a small room with anitmagic, the wizard is hardly worth its CR, and yes, in the open with normal magic traits, the wizard has a clear advantage.
Point is, they are suposed to work together to take down the CR 20 Dragon, as it were.
As it is, against a dragon the fighter can do nothing. Flyby attack, etc. He can't even fly fast enough to catch it. And the fact is, small rooms in AMF's are the exception to the norm, whereas open areas and dungeons are.


...except stand in melee. Or take damage at range... even from another wizard.
Contingency dimension door or teleport. That's if any melee creature can get to him. Usually, the wiz is flying, invisible and impossible to reach. Wind Wall blocks all arrows, bolts etc.



For now, yes, the arts of war are a good idea, I just feel there are too many of them to balance with the barbarian, the other PHB melee class. This is what the fighter should be balanced against.
Not really. He already mentioned that he was balancing against the ToB classes. I suspect that the other PHB melee classes could also use some tweaking.

[Bears With Lasers]

BWL: you seem to think the wizard is blasting the fighter, and the bloke with the big lump of pointy adimant is swining it at the mage. Last I looked, the fighter and the wizard compliment each other, not fight each other.
Yes, in a small room with anitmagic, the wizard is hardly worth its CR, and yes, in the open with normal magic traits, the wizard has a clear advantage.
No, I don't. I'm talking about what each class can do against enemies (monsters and NPCs both).
In a small room with antimagic, the Fighter is better... wow. Yeah, THAT really balances the classes out. Because half the time is spent in small rooms with antimagic, right?


Point is, they are suposed to work together to take down the CR 20 Dragon, as it were. Yes. Yes, they are. Unfortunately, in practice, that's not how it works out. The fighter can't help the wizard take down the dragon. The cleric? Sure. The rogue? Yeah, he's got UMD and a staff and some scrolls. He can Dimensional Anchor the thing, say.


The dragon has the SR, the Saves, the ability to despel a wizards attacks, and the immunities to limit what a wizard wants to cast.No, it doesn't. Spell Resistance plus a couple CL-boosters mean you can beat that SR most of the time. Assay Spell Resistance means you never have to worry about dragon SR again?
Saves? Check them. Seriously, check the numbers. Ancient Black Dragon, CR 19: +20 Will. Old Red Dragon, CR 20: +21 Will.
DC for a level 20 wizard: Well, with a starting int of 18 (could be less, could be more with a +2 INT race like grey elf), 5 points dumped into INT, a +6 item, and a +5 Tome (or Wishes from a bound efreeti), that's an INT of 34, namely +12. 10 base, +12, +9 = DC 31 for 9th-level spells. Add another +1 for spell focus, or make that the DC for 8th level spells.
As you can see, a kitted-out wizard can beat the dragon's will save half the time without tricks. Cast Insanity twice, it works one of the times, and you've won. (And boy, I hope the wizard doesn't cast Imprisonment with that -4 penalty for the dragon, with Arcane Reach letting'em do it from 30' away.)
And then there's all the options that don't allow saving throws. Dragons have an abysmal touch AC, and 10 DEX. Hit them with a Ray of Clumsiness, followed by a Split Ray of Exhaustion. Their dex will go down to 0 and they'll be paralyzed. Core-only? No problem. That's what Irresistible Dance + Arcane Reach is for.

Dispel? PLEASE. Look at dragon casting. That Old red dragon has a CL of 11. He can't dispel anything a 20th-level character does! He can, however, turn invisible and throw Mage Armor and Shield onto his 33 AC, upping it to 41.



The fighter steps up and hits the dragons amazingly small AC, takes the attacks and damage for the team, and provides a flank for the rouge to sneak attack.I don't think you understand. HOW DOES HE STEP UP AND ATTACK THE DRAGON? WHY would the dragon stand there, between him and the rogue, and attack?
One single full attack would splatter the rogue stupid enough to get into melee with a red dragon. Then the dragon could make flyby attacks on the fighter, breath weapon or otherwise. Or it could grapple him, if he forgot his Ring of FoM (something that's much less of a priority for melee types than for casters).
The dragon has a 200' fly speed, and can Teleport via its caster level.[/i] So, tell me: how does the fighter get to it? Yeah, that's what I thought. The Balor has a slower fly speed... but still more than the fighter's, and, oh yeah, it can teleport at will.


You want stats? Go read the Dungeon delve on the D&D website. The Dwarven Defender has AC 61 or somthing and well over 300 hp.Seriously, it's a Dwarven Defender. He's ROOTED IN PLACE. Even if he wants to get to the dragon and leave Defensive Stance... he can't. His AC is irrelevant, it can make fly-by breath attacks, and it doesn't need to confront him until everyone else is dead, because he has no way of getting to it. This is what I mean by the Fighter's mobility problems.




...except stand in melee. Or take damage at range... even from another wizard.A Dominated or gated-in monster can stand in melee just fine, and the wizard doesn't take damage from range because his defenses prevent it. Ranged damage? What kind of wizard worth his salt bothers, beyond having an Orb of X spell or two memorized?


I also dislike the personal hits at me. How can you judge me on how I play D&D when you have never met me, or seen one of my characters. Just becouse I dont post on the optimisation thread, dosn't mean I have never read a rule book. I know the rules. I work within the rules. That wasn't a personal attack. I was pointing out that the closest thing we have to experts on this topic--i.e., the people who analyze class balance for fun and build characters and have the best grasp of the rules of the game--agree with me.


When the fighter pops up, I dont automatically double what it's capable of for no reason, or complain that it is weak. I use it to augment another classes combat skills. By the time you get a level 20 melee combat character dealing 2d8+71 per hit over 10 attacks hitting with about half (even you or you optimisation buddies cant change a dice roll) and take down a Tarresque sigle handedly in 3 rounds, come back. Untill then, please do not abuse other people on the forums.So, let me get this straight: the Fighter is OK... because you can dip it with another melee class (like some kind of Dervish).
Trading full attacks with the Tarrasque probably won't go so well for you. Nevertheless, the Tarrasque isn't all that tough a level 20 enemy... because it doesn't have much in the way of mobility or options. Like a fighter, all it can do is run up to things and hit them.

I'm not doubling the Fighter's capabilities for no reason. I'm doing it because the Fighter class is very weak.
Why are you complaining that my Fighter 20 fix is overpowered, when you seem to have no problems with level 20 builds doing 2d8+71 with each of 10 attacks? This Fighter certainly can't do that.


pweent: my 15 feats at level 20 is a proposal for a simple fix. 1 feat at evey level, except 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th. I'd even go so far as to say give em a d12 HD. Ignore the 7 feats from HD everyone gets.
OK, so my 28 should read 21 to be fair, for this proposal. I include the 11 bonus feats, the 10 arts of war. In my earlier post I included the feats everyone gets.I don't think you understand. It doesn't really matter how many feats you give the Fighter. He could have all of the feats he can qualify for in every book and still have many of the same problems he does now--he can already GET all of the best feats. Shock Trooper, Elusive Target, Steadfast Determination, woo-hoo.
"Give him more feats" DOES NOT ADDRESS the fighter's issue: terrible vulnerabilities, terrible mobility, no tactical options, etc. If you think more feats, and +20 HP at level 20, solve the problem, you're either lying to yourself or have no idea what the problem is. What would the Fighter *take* with your bonus feats? Crappy feats, after he's already taken all the good ones, the best of which a fighter could have?


Perhaps the Fighter vs Wizard debate is not what this topic is about. Hence, I shall leave it there. Soon I will post my own fighter fix, and any and all may critique it when it comes.To be an actual fix, it will need to actually address the fighter's problems. Those problems are NOT "not enough feats", and extra feats won't let them fix the problems:
-Crappy mobility that can't get him to any enemies that don't "stand and deliver."
-A dozen and one weaknesses, from the will save to having no way to defend against magic or monster special attacks.
-No unique abilities besides Weapon Spec->Supremacy, which he has to actually spend his feats on and which doesn't help him with any of his problems.
-No capstone ability.
-No reason to take the class to 20.
-Half the levels are dead levels.
-Class abilities do NOT scale with level at all, much less well.


For now, yes, the arts of war are a good idea, I just feel there are too many of them to balance with the barbarian, the other PHB melee class. This is what the fighter should be balanced against.I freely admit that this fighter is more powerful than a Barbarian 20. A Barbarian 20 is worse in melee than a well-built fighter, having even fewer options (but better than a core Fighter 20). I don't see why I should balance against the Barbarian, which shares all of the Fighter's problems. I'm balancing against the Tome of Battle classes, the Psychic Warrior with good power selection (oh, look, Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank, weaknesses covered... teleport as a move action... Form of Doom for a strength boost and four extra attacks), good melee PrCs like the Dervish, that sort of thing.
I'm not trying to balance with the barbarian, because Barbarian 20 sucks for all the same reasons Fighter 20 does.

[Morty]

Well, as much as I can't argue whether fighter is weak on high levels, 'wizard is stronger' isn't an argument. Wizard is broken, and it's not fighter's fault.

[Bears With Lasers]

"Wizard is stronger" isn't my argument. "Fighter can't do anything" is my argument. I'm not balancing against the full might of CoDzilla or Batman; I've already said what I'm balancing against.

[Caewil]

Yes, the point is anyone wanting to be a good melee combatant will probably pick something like a Warblade, Swordsage or Psychic Warrior.

[pedrokraemer]

I liked the idea. Unless you multiclass or take leves on some prestige class, on high leves you´l get your fighter-ass kicked... :P

Though I think these "arts of war" still need some work... But did like the idea of making fighters decent soldiers...

[Marcotic]

Too complicated

[Cybren]

This fix? How? It seems to be one of the simpler ones.

[Marcotic]

just i mean, the new features seem cumbersome, sure they may be pretty simple for you or I, but if i wanted to play with a noob, it would take forever to explain what it all means. (which is the case for most classes but this one esspecially)

[Caewil]

So... Teach the noob. Or don't use the fix. It seems pretty simple anyway.

[Marcotic]

yeah, i guess, if leveling from level one it would be pretty easy, but it would take a desire to learn, maybe without would be best.

[Bears With Lasers]

How is it any more complicated than any other class that gets class abilities? It's certainly simpler than spellcasters, too.

[Behold_the_Void]

It's really not that complicated that all, just look at the Art of Wars as if they are a different kind of feat. You have a much smaller list to pick from every other level, and you just pick one and go. Not that hard at all.

Good class, by the way, I definitely like the flavor and it works a lot better than what I've been doing (feats every 3 levels and Warblade maneuver progression) to preserve the essential Fighter flavor.

[Abardam]

Since you have anti-spellcaster Arts, would anti-martial adept Arts fit in? Such as maybe:

Stance Break
Whenever you Power Attack for at least 5 points, you may, as a swift action, forgo the extra damage granted by the feat and force the target of your attack to leave his stance. He must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + attack bonus sacrificed) or lose the stance. (He may re-activate it as normal on his turn.)
You must identify beforehand that your target is in a stance to use this Art.

[SpartacusThe2nd]

im a newb but I suggest deleteing the bonus feats and letting the fighter choose either 1 art of war or 2 feat.

btw...very original and ... GOOD WORK!

[Marcotic]

Perhaps we should start a MundainVS.Magic thread, and try to get somthing that way, i mean, theres probably a simple solution that we haven't even thought of yet. As for this suggested fix, its really good, just a little complex to throw in, not to mention get a DM to allow.

[MeklorIlavator]

there have been plenty of magic verses mundane threads already. Also, you should see serow's fighter fix on wizards forums. That guy could gets 2 feat chains, then eventually 4, with special class abilities.

[Marcotic]

thanks, I decided it's probley to big a problem to be completely solved, and maybe, it doesn't need to be addressed (I just realised i've never actually played high level as a fighter, or mundane class so who knows, it might all work out int the end)

[thorgrim29]

Hey bears, pretty nice work, maybe include an advanced or complex art that lets you add 1/3, or 1/4 of your char levels to your will save, I mean the guy endured grueling training, getting beat up all the time, and a level 5 mage can reduce him to a spineless wreck? (with ray of enfeeblement). Maybe put iron will as a preriquisite.

p.s. hey, I just referenced BM without wanting to

[Bears With Lasers]

Hey bears, pretty nice work, maybe include an advanced or complex art that lets you add 1/3, or 1/4 of your char levels to your will save, I mean the guy endured grueling training, getting beat up all the time, and a level 5 mage can reduce him to a spineless wreck? (with ray of enfeeblement). Maybe put iron will as a preriquisite.

p.s. hey, I just referenced BM without wanting to
There are feats to up your will save. For Arts, there's an Art that replaces it with a concentration check entirely, comined with Concentration becoming a class skill. That does a lot more than just adding a bit to your will save. In fact, it's too good--I'm currently working on fixing that Art; I think it will make you lose your next move action, and require another swift action before you can use it again.

As for Ray of Enfeeblement (which has no save, Will or otherwise), there's an Art to counter it: the one that lets the Fighter reduce penalties, "Overcome Difficulty: Weakness".

[Morty]

You know, since that fix is giving Fighter a significant pump-up both on low and high levels, maybe you should boost NPC Warriors as well, to they don't fall behind. I don't know, though.

[Bears With Lasers]

Why? They're NPC warriors; let'em suck in comparison. They're competing with commoners, experts, and aristocrats. This fix also does next to nothing for low-level fighters--the Simple Arts don't really do anything that's vrey significantly useful, intentionally, so the Fighter doesn't get significantly "better" until level 9ish.

[elliott20]

I like this version of the figher, personally. It starts to open more options for the fighter in the way giving them more defenses and what not.

but I personally think that the best way to "fix" the fighter is to simply create more feats that are worth taking and have them nested in a feat tree that would require more dedication.

So, one of your peerless arts could simply become a fighter feat that would be sitting on top of a fighter feat tree that is 10-15 feats in. That way, only the most dedicated fighters will get to some of the more awesome arts.

This, however, is also contingent that the feats interim to the capstone feat is also increasing in it's power. So, basically, there would be the need for an entire new host of feats that extends off of the existing feat, and making the fighter feats actually worth while as opposed to become nothing more than flavor feats.

That or we can use your fix, I guess.

[Draz74]

Peerless Awareness (Ex), prerequisites Seize the Initiative and Tactical Awareness – the Fighter has developed an awareness of the so perfect it borders on the supernatural. The Fighter now always adds a competence bonus equal to his one-half class level to his initiative checks, and the Blindsense or Blindsight granted by Tactical Awareness increase to 60’. Additionally, he cannot be surprised.

What does that last clause mean, mechanically? Does it mean that his party, too, can never be surprised? Or just that, if his foes gain a surprise round, he automatically does too?

[Jack Mann]

Bingo on that last. He gets to act on any surprise round, just like a wizard with Foresight.

[rob]

Bears!

I really like this post. I like it because it does a huge number of things that high level fighters should do. I'll get into the detailed critique in a few, but a few bottom-line-up-front things for the other casual readers:

1. Brief summary of the goals that have been implied in the post:
a.) allow fighters contribute to high level combats.
b.) balance the fighter relative to more powerful 'warrior' classes mentioned from various non-SRD books and some psychic classes.
c.) keep the 'sheer violence, no sauce' flavor of fighter combat.
d.) reduce the equipment dependency of higher level fighters.
2. I love bears's phrase of 'higher level fighters caroming around the battle field like wrecking balls'... or something to that effect. I like of thinking of 20th level fighters in those terms (anything from the illiad...), and I will use a lot of analogies from movies to underscore my points...
3. I agree with 'worrying about casters being broke' and 'identifying cases in which fighters can be useful as-is' being kind of sideline. We've all thought about that a lot.

As for the specific critique:



Soul of Battle (Su), prerequisites Heart of Battle and Mind of Battle – the Fighter is a master of battle, his force of will making his body far tougher than it seems. He automatically suceeds on saves vs. massive damage, does not fail saving throws on a natural 1, is immune to critical hits, [Death] spells and negative levels, and may reroll one attack roll per round.


Nice, but this together might dominate many other abilities at the 'peerless' level, and since all the abilities are passive it doesn't seem to add as much fun as some of the others. But I don't have any other cool 'peerless' ideas right now to replace it, so take what you will! Suggestion:
Saves vs. massive damage could be anything from simple art of war on up; not that big a deal.
Not fail saves on natural 1 - I hate anything that puts a character's life entirely within 1 roll of the die, but is this that big a deal? Could it be an advanced art of war?
Immune to critical hits - noted, but also makes you immune to sneak attack... I know that it's something that you can get with equipment, and warforged can get EASILY, but how big is this for making fighters 'impossible' opponents for sneaky enemies?
Immune to death attacks + neg levels - Sure! Tiny thing, but for completeness sake, something so that weapons/items that give negative levels to the wrong alignments still work on them.
Reroll one attack per round - maybe, but is this needed?




Grappling-focused builds don't need to worry about foes their size or smaller; this is for them. A lot of high-level D&D creatures are really big, and grappling them is impossible even if you can win. Plus, there's that pesky size bonus in *addition* to their higher STR. This is for grapplers who want to be able to try to grab giants by the ankle and topple them, or even trippers who want to trip dragons. It's weak as a generic Art, but very useful to Fighters who focus on that sort of thing.


It's important to make grappling useful for every fighter, in addition to just the dedicated grapple build, as a way to counter enemies who are way too maneuverable. Any reasonably strong fighter should have the option to sit on people and punch them until they stop being a problem.
I don't think tripping giants or dragons is the biggest deal, but fighters should be able to grab onto dragons and hit them repeatedly - I can imagine a scene where a fully armored dude grabs a dragon by the throat as it bites at him, holds on with one hand, and starts repeatedly stabbing it with a sword while the dragon whips its head around.
In game terms, this would mean:
(1) All fighters should get improved unarmed strike as a free feat. Heck, it's basically just 'fist weapon proficiency'. Not at all broken, and don't tell me a sorceror or a bard is as good at punching people as a fighter is. This is important because it would make Improved Grapple only 1 feat away...
(2) Make this a basic or advanced art of war, and make it so that you can grapple things of any size, use one-handed weapons in a grapple, and size modifiers don't apply when the target attempts to escape resist the hold at the start of a grapple, escape the grapple, or pin the fighter.
(3) This way would prevent some cheese, like a 350-lb fully armored fighter pinning a multiple ton dragon.


Full attack on a charge seems kinda lame... I can't imagine a way any charging lance-wielder could attack more than once; doesn't even look right when I imagine it with a greatsword or rapier... (I'm picturing scenes in movies that would look cool with this.) Only thing that would be awesome is if you allowed something like a 'ride-by' attack during a charge, in addition to the charge itself. The TWF ability, below, also addresses this.


Heart of Battle (Ex) – the Fighter is hardened against the horror and din of battle and the debilitating effects of spells. He becomes Sickened instead of Nauseated, Shaken instead of Frightened, Frightened instead of Panicked, Stunned instead of Paralyzed, Dazed instead of Stunned or Cowering, Staggered instead of Dazed, Fatigued instead of Exhausted, Ability Damaged instead of Ability Drained, and Fascinated instead of Confused. If something would normally inflict the Shaken, Fatigued, or Sickened conditions on him, the Fighter remains unaffected. All such conditions retain their normal durations, and the fighter may only mitigate or negate a number of conditions equal to 3+his Charisma bonus, if any, at a time.

I like Fangthane's criticism, that a 'determined attack' should overcome this. Unfortunately, the 3+ charisma fix will lead (cheesy) enemies to dump some lower level effects to use this up, then hit 'em with the bigger effect. How about allowing it that a subsequent (reduced) effect pumps it back up? Stun me once, I'm dazed. Stun me twice, I'm stunned.



Are there any abilities you think would make good additions to the list? I thought about adding specific things to help TWFing and Sword-And-Board fighters, but I wanted to deal with a Generic Fighter first; what kind of Simple/Complex/Advanced Arts would you suggest for that? How about an Art that lets grapplers, say, take a -X penalty to ignore the Freedom of Movement spell on their target? How big should -X be?


(1) repeated from some other posters, but:
Basic art of war - Multiple weapon flexibility - attack with a weapon in each hand as a standard action, with the penalties for wielding both weapons. Would allow charging TWF attacks...

(2) versus rays:
Basic art of war - shield skill - character's shield armor class applies to ranged touch attacks versus the character if it would apply to a ranged attack in the same circumstances. (use your shield verus a ray. duh.).

general flexibility, also some versus-caster stuff:

Basic art of war - tactical adaptability:
(1) the character may use an immediate action to declare a total defense.
(2) the character can use attacks of opportunity while on total defense.
(3) the character can use an immediate action to take total cover or improved cover (+8 AC, +4 reflex save) behind a tower shield, cover (+4 AC, +2 reflex save) behind a heavy shield, or light cover (+2 AC, +1 reflex save) behind a light shield, buckler, or second weapon (if character has two-weapon defense). A character gives up all attacks (including attacks of opportunity) until his next turn if he does so, however. <-- for improved cover, see the cover section in the combat chapter of the SRD

This allows a character to use an immediate action to REALLY increase his defense versus rays or spells, and works REALLY WELL for low level characters.

Basic art of war - eye-level defilade: the character has fought long enough never to expose unneccessary targets to the enemy.
(1) Any cover grants the character evasion versus attacks from which the character has cover.
(2) All cover from shields, including total cover from tower shields, has full effect versus spells.

[rob]

Oh, yeah:

Advanced art of war - maintain contact: if an enemy that the character threatens takes a 5' step out of the character's threatened area, the character may immediately take a 5' step that brings the enemy back into the threatened area. Under no circumstances may a character move more than his normal move (modified by armor, etc.) in a single combat turn using this ability.

Wizards shouldn't be able to just step away and cast...

[SpiderBrigade]

This is amazing work, Bears. Amazing. As you say, Batman and CoDzilla are still probably stronger, but now there is a lot the fighter can contribute.

One minor question, though:
Spell-Parrying Steel (Su) – the Fighter has dealt with enough spellcasters to learn to react to their spells—and send them hurtling back. When the figher is the target of a ranged touch attack with a spell or spell-like ability and is wielding a magic weapon, he may, as an immediate action, make an attack roll (with a +5 circumstance bonus if the weapon he is parrying with is made of Cold Iron) versus a DC of 10+the spell’s caster level+the spellcaster’s casting ability modifier. If he succeeds, the spell is deflected and dissipates harmlessly as it rebounds off of the Fighter’s weapon.You mean the spell's LEVEL, right? Because otherwise those DCs will be much too hard to make the Art worth taking.

Edit: also, are you familiar with the 3.0 PrC "Devoted Defender," which was in I think Sword and Fist? Some of those abilities would make excellent Arts, allowing the fighter to fill the much-vaunted "meatshield" role which, currently, he 100% can't do.

[Reinboom]

Hmmn, I think that this should also be somewhat adjusted to allow, say, a fighter to use these arts to fight generic high powered enemies without a spellcaster's support.
One major glaring issue I have with playing with fighters is trying to overcome high armor without the use of magical items. Although it seemingly compares at first, with so many spells that can increase, say, a dragon's dex, armor class, etc. Trying to hit certain things after a few rounds becomes tedious. So, an art idea that is flavorful:

Simple Art of War:
Armor Piercer: The fighter has the ability to steadily render an enemy's armor useless. With each successful hit the target's armor weakens slightly, giving them a temporary -1 penalty to Armor. This penalty applies first to shields, then to worn armor, then to natural armor (until each is negated.) If a shield or suit of armor is rendered to 0 AC, that armor is effectively destroyed. Natural armor recovers at a rate of 1 a day while active or 1 an hour while resting.


And another that is slightly out of flavor, but allows the fighter to be able to fill a roll if nothing else is available.
Advanced Art of War:
Location Pinning: The fighter has the ability to limit a creatures ability to move, even through magical means. With a successful power attack, a hit creature loses its ability to take any standard movement during its next round beyond a 5 foot step. The creature is also treated as though it was under the effect of a successful Dimensional Anchor during this round. If the creature is in a state that requires movement, such as flight with average or worse maneuverability, they automatically take the penalties of not moving, such as falling from mid-flight.

[Arbitrarity]

Hmmm...

Now, the barbarian and ranger need these progressions as well. How does

5: simple
9: simple
13: advanced
17: advanced
20: Complex

Sound?

Hmmm... good point.

[Morty]

Hmmm...

Now, the barbarian and ranger need these progressions as well. How does

5: simple
9: simple
13: advanced
17: advanced
20: Complex

Sound?

Meh, if someone was to alter rangers and barbarians, they should be given their own class features instead of arts of war.

[pjackson]

There a lot of nice ideas there, but I think it spoils the simplicity which is one of the Fighter class' best features.
I would rather keep Fighter as the feat class and give them class features at odd levels to enhance the values of those feats.

I currently favour replacing Weapon Specialization and most of the feats dependant on it but class abilities like:
Level Feature
3rd Bonus Weapon Focus feat
5th Weapon focus also gives a +2 to damage
7th Weapon focus feats give +2 to attack rolls rather than +1
9th Free Weapon Mastery feat (Melee or Ranged)
11th Weapon focus damage bonus increased to +4
13th +1 bonus to AC when wearing light or heavier armour.
Weapon focus gives +4 on checks to resist being disarmed.
15th +4 on saves vs fear effects.
When using full attack may apply a +5 bonus to any attack after the
first made with a weapon you have weapon focus for.
17th May take 10 on one attack roll per round made with a weapon you
have weapon focus for.
(I haven't had a good idea of 19th level yet).

[Talanic]

Gotta read more into it...Bears lists, in later posts, exactly WHY the changes he suggests are as they are. Examples like what a wizard does against a CR20 dragon, and why, in the same situation, a fighter is completely helpless against that same dragon.

[pjackson]

Gotta read more into it...

I did read the whole thread before writing.


Bears lists, in later posts, exactly WHY the changes he suggests are as they are. Examples like what a wizard does against a CR20 dragon, and why, in the same situation, a fighter is completely helpless against that same dragon.

Yes, but I still think his changes are too complex.
Mine suggestion does not cover those reasons explicitly.
What it does is take away from the fighter the need to spend feats on just hitting and doing damage (which are boring things to spend a feat on anyway).
Those feats can then be spent on special, situational attacks and defences.
Many of the proposed arts in the OP would make good feats.

For fighting a dragon a feat allowing you you use a shield to protect yourself from cone and line based AEs and some of the mobility arts from the OP as feats would be a good start.

[Yakk]

Bit of thread necromancy, but the good kind.

While I disagree with BWL's style of fix, this is at least well thought through.

The problem is, the solution is messy. A huge list of abilities with strange mechanical implications? It is messy. There isn't even a unified mechanic: abilities use fighter levels, BaB,

On top of that, you end up with a class that can screw itself overly easy by a poor choice of abilities. It seems designed for someone to create a "Level X" character, then back-purchase the abilities needed for that character, than develop a character organically.

I mean, look at this:

Heart of Battle (Ex) – the Fighter is hardened against the horror and din of battle and the debilitating effects of spells. He becomes Sickened instead of Nauseated, Shaken instead of Frightened, Frightened instead of Panicked, Stunned instead of Paralyzed, Dazed instead of Stunned or Cowering, Staggered instead of Dazed, Fatigued instead of Exhausted, Ability Damaged instead of Ability Drained, and Fascinated instead of Confused. If something would normally inflict the Shaken, Fatigued, or Sickened conditions on him, the Fighter remains unaffected. All such conditions retain their normal durations, and the fighter may only mitigate or negate a number of conditions equal to 3+his Charisma bonus, if any, at a time.

One would need a chart to tell what happens. It is a good idea for a type of ability, but it is too mechanically cumbersome.

...

Can we shave things down and make them simpler?

Some numbers to use:
Fighter's Body: Sum of physical stat-mods.
Fighter's Mind: Highest mental stat-mod.
Fighter's BaB: the BaB.
Fighter's Class Level: How many levels of fighter.

In general, BaB should be used instead of Fighter level on any ability that isn't "front loaded". "Front loaded" abilities can use Fighter level, to avoid multi-class munchkinism.

Mixing flavour text and game mechanics text should be avoided. If one must have flavour text, make it look different.

Hmm...

[Matthew]

Bears With Lasers has been banned and so it is unlikely he will be able to address these concerns. I do agree with several of your points, but really this Thread is probably just going to have to die, though it will no doubt remain a reference point for those looking to 'fix' the Fighter.

[pjackson]

I have played both spellcasters and pure fighters. At ECL 10, my pure Fighter was dominating melee... except when we encountered very large monsters (more prevalent at higher levels), or any kind of enemy requiring me to make a will save. Core-only, there is nothing you can do to change this. Outside of coure, you can waste half your feats on shoring up your defenses, and thus have no real advantage in melee over another class taking melee feats.

My solution aims to give you a real advantage in melee even if you do not use your feats for that, freeing you to use them to bolster your defenses.

I largely agree with Bears' analysis of the fighter's problems, and think what I proposed with an appropiate set of feat chains would deal with most of them.
For example a feat chain that allowed someone using a shield to basically block one ranged attack (magical or not) per round would force mobs that only get 1 ranged attack per round to close with the fighter if they wanted to harm him.
Also needed would be a feat chain for fighting very large creatures. Some of the OP arts might do, but I would rather go for something that let you grab hold and attack them from where it is difficult for them to reach you. E.g a dragon might be able to flex his head enough to attach you whilst on its back, but it's claws probably won't reach.
Feat chains that block specific weaknesses, like some of the arts in the OP, would allow you to counter the attacks of certain opponents, and those with the flexibility to choose how to attack, will be less certain what will work against you.
Other melee classes might be able to take one of these chains and some feats that boost their class specific abilities, but only a fighter will be able to take several.



To be an actual fix, it will need to actually address the fighter's problems. Those problems are NOT "not enough feats", and extra feats won't let them fix the problems:
-Crappy mobility that can't get him to any enemies that don't "stand and deliver."
-A dozen and one weaknesses, from the will save to having no way to defend against magic or monster special attacks.
-No unique abilities besides Weapon Spec->Supremacy, which he has to actually spend his feats on and which doesn't help him with any of his problems.
-No capstone ability.
-No reason to take the class to 20.
-Half the levels are dead levels.
-Class abilities do NOT scale with level at all, much less well.

[FoeHammer]

What you should do is not make this a fighter. Change the name to Tactician or something and voilà you have a ready and able base class.

[Matthew]

See two posts above...

[The Necroswanso]

This has got to be the sexiest high BAB class I've ever seen.

[Eldariel]

I like templating Weapon Focus as follows:
"You gain +1 to attack rolls with the chosen weapons. If you have an effective Fighter-level of at least 8, this bonus increases to +2. If you have an effective Fighter-level of at least 4, you also gain +2 to damage rolls with the chosen weapon. If you have an effecctive Fighter-level of at least 12, this bonus increases to +4."

That leaves Weapon Masteries and Weapon Supremacy out as they're a bit different (could certainly be bonus feats granted as you advance in the class); Supremacy could be included in that, but I feel it's good enough to warrant spending a feat on if the prerequisite is just two feats as opposed to five feats.

It may be worth also separating Weapon Focus to two feats: Weapon Focus (which contains Weapon Specialization) and Greater Weapon Focus. It shouldn't be overpowering with the suggested wording, but things may play out better if going for the ultimate weapon mastery requires more commitment than just two feats.

Even better could be making it work like Favoured Enemy for Ranger: You get a free Weapon Focus level 1, level 5 you get a free Weapon Focus in another weapon and Weapon Specialization in the first one, level 10 you get a third weapon along with free Greater Weapon Focus in the first one and Weapon Specialization in the second, 15th level gives you a fourth weapon, free Greater Weapon Specialization in the first, Greater Weapon Focus in the second and Weapon Specialization in the third, and level 20 sees you get Weapon Supremacy in the first, Greater Weapon Specialization in the second, Greater Weapon Focus in the third, Weapon Specialization in the fourth and a 5th Weapon Focus.

The plan doesn't work very well with Weapon Aptitude, but otherwise it seems solid.

[brian c]

Guys this thread is over a year old. I never understood how people get to comment on these, why would you dig through pages and pages of dead threads, read them and comment?