Improved Trip and Knock-down

[tintin_man]

Since you need improved trip (PH) to take the Knock-down feat (from D&D), when you trigger knock-down by doing 10 points of damage and subsequently trip the opponent you hit, do you make a free extra attack due to improved trip? I'm assuming you do NOT get the free attack, but the way that it's worded leaves it a bit open to interpretation. The specific example given in improved trip makes me think the way I'm thinking, but considering it says right before that "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent" it has a discrepancy. However, it does say in the same sentence "as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt" which I'm not doing...

Anyway, whatever clarifications you can give would be much appreciated. I suppose it comes down to DM discretion, but that sure would be nice to whack a guy, trip him, then whack him again...especially with a ToB strike...

[eggynack]

I don't see a reason why you wouldn't be able to. I think that a past version of the feat had errata to the effect that you can't do this, but the most up to date version has no such errata, so you're fine. It's a good ability, though it's far from overpowered in most situations.

[rockdeworld]

Exactly as Eggynack said, by RAW you can create a nigh-infinite loop trips and attacks this way (only nigh-infinite, because eventually you'll roll a 1 on your attack). In most cases, it's a good idea to ignore the examples, as they only sometimes follow the rules they're supposed to be examples for.

[eggynack]

Exactly as Eggynack said, by RAW you can create a nigh-infinite loop trips and attacks this way (only nigh-infinite, because eventually you'll roll a 1 on your attack). In most cases, it's a good idea to ignore the examples, as they only sometimes follow the rules they're supposed to be examples for.
How do ya get to nigh-infinite? It's just attack, free trip from knock-down, and free attack from improved trip. If the opponent stands from prone, you get an AoO, but the enemy is still prone when you make it, so you lack the ability to trip him back to prone and lock him down infinitely in that fashion.

[rockdeworld]

so you lack the ability to trip him back to prone
This statement is incorrect by RAW. RAI is another matter.

[eggynack]

This statement is incorrect by RAW. RAI is another matter.
Unless you can trip prone enemies, it's a correct statement by RAW. I can't really find anything that says you can't trip prone enemies, though it seems rather dubious as these things go.

[Tar Palantir]

Unless you can trip prone enemies, it's a correct statement by RAW. I can't really find anything that says you can't trip prone enemies, though it seems rather dubious as these things go.

Yeah, that's one for the Dysfunctional RAW Thread, if that's the case. Fixing that obvious bug, I see no reason why Improved Trip shouldn't work with Knockdown, by RAW or RAI.

[OldTrees1]

Knockdown:
Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.

Improved Trip:
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt.


So whenever you deal 10 or more damage you get a trip attack against the same target.

Then if you trip with this attack you immediately get a melee attack as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt


Wait. As if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt? Lets rewind to see what options we had. We were allowed a free trip attack (not a free attack with which we decided to trip) which we merely used to trip with.
This is one of the 2 interpretations. Under this interpretation the feat lets you change the order from "Trip then Attack" to "Attack then Trip" which is sometimes useful but not on par with a feat like Improved Trip.

The other interpretation is that Knockback gave you a free attack and choose a trip action for you which Improved Trip allows you to attack again as if your feat had not chosen to expend the attack on a trip.

I like to give Melee nice things so when I DM I use the more favorable interpretation. When I am a player I let the DM know the 2 positions and only take the feat if it is worth a feat slot(uses the favorable interpretation)

PS: It does not create an infinite loop since dumb enemies die quickly and smart enemies crawl/teleport/tumble/attack rather than stand up next to a tripper.