Ranged / Melee Rogue Build

[ManuelSacha]

Hi!
I'm about to start a new D&D (pirate-themed, Paragon level) campaign, and all my players but one have already submitted their character sheets and they've been approved.
However, the last character is proving to be a hard nut to crack.
I have some character building experience, but I couldn't find a way to help her make it just the way she wants it.

The idea is that she's an agile rogue with high evasion skills that darts in and out of the battlefield, using both ranged attacks and melee attacks, with a crossbow and (ideally) a pair of (not yet defined) light blades.
Basically something like a Marauder Ranger, but with a Rogue.

These are the main elements that she has so far:

Race: Half-Elf
Class: Rogue
Rogue Tactics: Artful Dodger
Sharpshooter Talent (Crossbow)
Dilettante - Twin Strike
Feats: Weapon Expertise (Crossbow), Master At Arms, Backstabber, Unarmored Agility, Versatile Master
Ability scores: 18 17 14 14 12 12 ...yup, those were lucky rolls... she sent me a video :smallbiggrin:


These are the things we considered:

Cloaked Sniper Paragon Path, Slaying Action and Speed Loader
Weapon Proficiency (Superior Crossbow)
Weapon Focus (Crossbow)
Quick Draw


Thoughts? Suggestions?
Do you know any Power, Feat, Rogue Tactics, Paragon Path, Equipment that could help optimize this build?
Is this build even viable? Or is it destined to be sub-par?

Thanks in advance for any insight you might give us.


EDIT: *snip*

[Mando Knight]

Don't take Weapon Expertise (Crossbow). Take Master At Arms (from Heroes of Fallen Lands) if possible, which gives Expertise on all weapons. And then gives you a minor action to switch weapons (put away one and draw another in one action).

Unarmored Agility is bad on a Rogue, who already gets Leather. (And leather armor, at least as according to the artists, can practically be any kind of outfit you can fit a bit of leather onto)

Twin Strike in melee is bad for a Cha-Rogue unless you MC Bard (there's a feat for switching your Dilettante power to Cha), and Half-Elf Rogues are in general (as far as I know) solidly "OK." With high rolled stats, Brutal Scoundrel is probably better than Artful Dodger, since it opens up a solid Twin Strike (which can be made a true at-will with a Half-Elf feat).

[Yakk]

A stab

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Test build, level 11
Half-Elf, Rogue
Rogue Tactics: Artful Dodger
Rogue: Sharpshooter Talent
Sharpshooter Talent: Sharpshooter Talent (Crossbow)
Half-Elf Power Selection: Dilettante
Background: Occupation - Criminal (+2 to Stealth)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 17, Dex 21, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 22.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 14, Dex 18, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 17.


AC: 24 Fort: 20 Reflex: 24 Will: 26
HP: 79 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +21, Thievery +15, Bluff +18, Streetwise +16, Acrobatics +15, Intimidate +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +6, Diplomacy +13, Dungeoneering +6, Endurance +8, Heal +6, History +6, Insight +8, Nature +6, Perception +6, Religion +6, Athletics +6

FEATS
Level 1: Quick Draw
Level 2: Backstabber
Level 4: Treetop Sniper
Level 6: Master at Arms
Level 8: Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow)
Level 10: Superior Will
Level 11: Versatile Master

POWERS
Dilettante: Twin Strike
Rogue at-will 1: Sly Flourish
Rogue at-will 1: Piercing Strike
Rogue encounter 1: Shadow Strike
Rogue daily 1: Duelist's Prowess
Rogue utility 2: Fleeting Ghost
Rogue encounter 3: Startling Offensive
Rogue daily 5: Surefooted Retort
Rogue utility 6: Chameleon
Rogue encounter 7: Lashing Blade
Rogue daily 9: Knockout
Rogue utility 10: Shadow Stride

ITEMS
Rebounding Greatbow +3, Bracers of Archery (heroic tier), Dynamic Short sword +3, Gloaming Leather Armor +2
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

but mediocre.

[tcrudisi]

Alternatively, maybe (maybe!) she might be ok with a Rogue who wields a blade in the main hand and a crossbow in the off-hand, but let's just say that'd be a last resort.

Clarify this statement, please.

In 4e, there's not really a "main hand" and "off-hand". You could easily say that you are holding a crossbow in your main hand and a dagger in your off-hand.

Or is it really, "When I'm holding a crossbow, I don't like the image of also holding a dagger, so it's either 2 daggers at one time or a crossbow. They can't be mixed."?

[Mando Knight]

In 4e, there's not really a "main hand" and "off-hand".

Except when there is (which is when you're trying to use both at the same time, such as with TWF feats or Ranger powers).

[Kurald Galain]

Why would you use a crossbow (and spend feats and actions swapping back and forth) when you can simply throw daggers? Most rogues I've seen have no problem swapping between melee and ranged simply by throwing.

The str-based rogue does more damage than the cha-based (for instance because you can reliably use basic attacks and Riposte Strike), but then you should really be a Brutal Scoundrel. Note that rogues already have a +1 to hit with daggers, meaning sharpshooter doesn't do much.

[NecroRebel]

Range can be an issue with thrown daggers, but there are ways around it. With the Far Throw and Distant Shot feats and a Determined (AV1) dagger, you can hit targets within 12+Dex tiles with no penalty. With a Dex-focused class like the Rogue, that'll be nearly 20 tiles easy by paragon level, which is practically always enough.

If you want to swap between ranged and melee often, I'd suggest going Artful Dodger for the boosted AC vs. OAs. That can mean that you can actually use your ranged attacks while in melee without fear. If you also make a point of taking mostly or only powers that have a "Melee or Ranged Weapon" line, you can have practically free targeting and positioning.

[ManuelSacha]

Firstly, thanks to all for your help.


Don't take Weapon Expertise (Crossbow). Take Master At Arms (from Heroes of Fallen Lands) if possible, which gives Expertise on all weapons. And then gives you a minor action to switch weapons (put away one and draw another in one action).

Good point. I had completely forgotten about that feat.


Unarmored Agility is bad on a Rogue, who already gets Leather.

Yeah, I just tried and Unarmored Agility is worthless for her.


Why would you use a crossbow (and spend feats and actions swapping back and forth) when you can simply throw daggers?

I had already thought about that, seeing how much trouble this build is giving me, and wanting to simplify it, but she just likes the concept so I wanted to try to make it viable.
Given the nature of the campaign (naval warfare), she wants to have the longest range possible. Also, her bf made a ranger with a Distance Greatbow, and I'm afraid her character might lose too much compared to his, both in terms of damage output and range.
Distance Superior Crossbow + Far Shot = 30/55 ...right?


In 4e, there's not really a "main hand" and "off-hand". You could easily say that you are holding a crossbow in your main hand and a dagger in your off-hand.

Yeah, I guess that in most cases you could say that.
And you're right, if the melee weapon has the off-hand property, the distinction becomes pointless. But remember, she has no Rogue Weapon Talent, so it might not be a dagger, and it might not have the off-hand property.
The Paragon Path called Cloaked Sniper makes her treat the hand crossbow as an off-hand weapon, so it opens the "two-crossbows option", and the "crossbow and melee weapon option".
However, we can forget about this. After explaining a few details to her, she said she doesn't like this idea, and would rather use a Superior Crossbow with both hands, and swap weapons.

This also means she still didn't choose a Paragon Path.

[Yakk]

So, if she really cares about range, the Greatbow has the best range, and there is an elf (hence half-elf) feat to use it with sneak attack.

The above build I posted, while mediocre, does generate a twin strike dealing 1d12+5 twice over with a backstab of 3d8 on a hit. Another 2 damage per hit (from weapon focus, losing some feat) isn't hard to pull off.

It also has a neat mechanic, namely "become a non combatant rat and be nearly undetectable", which I thought was fitting for a ship (rats everywhere): her stealth score is through the roof. She can move at full speed without stealth penalty, walk through open areas and not be spotted, and even be revealed by enemy movement and still not be spotted (as a rat, or as a half-elf).

In melee, she deals nearly as much damage with sly flourish, and has a bunch of out-of-turn actions she can do (each of which can trigger another backstab). If she can manage to get combat advantage on a huge bunch of foes and stand in the middle of them, she is going to be dealing a backstab to each of them on their turn as a per-encounter power. So she's an acceptable melee combatant. Her AC is abysmal, I'll accept.

Gear wise, she has a short sword in one hand and a greatbow in the other.

Quickdraw lets her use her short sword interrupts when attacked when using her greatbow.

Like I said, it needs work, but it isn't complete junk.