[PF] Dervish Dancer... wait, no, Dawnflower Dervish.

[Daftendirekt]

I seem to recall Dervish Dancers getting double Bardic Music bonuses, but they only applied to themselves. However, looking at the page now (here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dervish-dancer) AND here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/bard.html#_dervish-dancer-(archetype))) I'm not seeing that passage anymore. Indeed, Ctrl + F for "double" brings up zero results. Did they get nerfed?

Also, didn't they get Dervish Dance as a bonus feat before? What gives?

[Psyren]

My Ultimate Combat doesn't have any of these. Battle Dance gives 1x benefits self only, and they don't get Dervish Dance for free.

Maybe you're thinking of the playtest?

[Baroncognito]

I seem to recall Dervish Dancers getting double Bardic Music bonuses, but they only applied to themselves. However, looking at the page now (here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dervish-dancer) AND here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/bard.html#_dervish-dancer-(archetype))) I'm not seeing that passage anymore. Indeed, Ctrl + F for "double" brings up zero results. Did they get nerfed?

Also, didn't they get Dervish Dance as a bonus feat before? What gives?

You're thinking of the wrong bard archetype.

Edit: You want the Dawnflower Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish).

[Daftendirekt]

Wooooww. How did I not realize there are two Dervish archetypes for the bard? Now that's just ****ing confusing.

Thanks for clearing this up.

[Psyren]

You're thinking of the wrong bard archetype.

Edit: You want the Dawnflower Dervish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish).

Ah, you're right!

Comparing them - the double bonuses are nice but otherwise I think the Dervish Dancer comes out ahead. Rain of Blows nearly evens the gap attackwise, and Leaf on the Wind is really good since it stacks with nearly everything.

[Daftendirekt]

Both abilities are even called Battle Dance! WHAT WAS PAIZO THINKING?! Two bard archetypes extremely similar in both name and abilities.

[Psyren]

Both abilities are even called Battle Dance! WHAT WAS PAIZO THINKING?! Two bard archetypes extremely similar in both name and abilities.

The Dawnflower one is setting-specific (even the PI-stripped version has deity requirements for instance) whereas the "Ultimate" line are setting-neutral. My guess is they made the Dervish Dancer for UC afterward.

[Squirrel_Dude]

They might have actually been working on them concurrently. Source books for both archetypes came out in the same year, with Ultimate Combat coming out in August 2011. I can't find the actual month that Inner Sea Magic came out, though.

But yeah, it's kind of a weird thing to have two things that are so similar, that are both archetypes, and are both for the same class. That said, there is also a dervish prestige class and a dervish fighter archetype IIRC, so Pathfinder just seems to like that concept.

[Psyren]

Well there's Winter Witch PrC+Archetype too, and Aldori Swordlord PrC+Archetype, and two different Scroll Scholars... I guess these things just happen.

[Sayt]

To throw further muck at the mess, there's also Dervish of Dawn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) for the Fighter.

Kinda makes you wonder if it's intentional.

[Psyren]

To throw further muck at the mess, there's also Dervish of Dawn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) for the Fighter.

Kinda makes you wonder if it's intentional.

Dervish of Dawn = Dawnflower Dervish, they just had to remove the Product Identity since the original is from a Golarion book (as opposed to a generic PF book.)

[The Random NPC]

Dervish of Dawn = Dawnflower Dervish, they just had to remove the Product Identity since the original is from a Golarion book (as opposed to a generic PF book.)

There is a Dervish of Dawn/Dawnflower Dervish for both Bards and Fighters, which is what he was pointing out.

[gr8artist]

Having played a Dervish Dancer in a recent campaign, I'll say this...
The battle dances look nice, but a Keen weapon and the Haste spell cover the best two. It's still a fun class, but you'll likely find yourself only using one or maybe two dances.

[Baron Malkar]

Well there's Winter Witch PrC+Archetype too, and Aldori Swordlord PrC+Archetype, and two different Scroll Scholars... I guess these things just happen.

I would like to point out that the Winter Witch PRC requires the archetype to qualify...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Having played a Dervish Dancer in a recent campaign, I'll say this...
The battle dances look nice, but a Keen weapon and the Haste spell cover the best two. It's still a fun class, but you'll likely find yourself only using one or maybe two dances.

Yup. And both compete with Inspire Courage for your performance to use.

I much prefer the Dawnflower Dervish. In a party with lots of physical attackers, it's worse than normal bard, but if you plan to be the party's primary melee character, it can't be beat for bard archetypes.

[Psyren]

Huh. I actually just realized Leaf on the Wind is a standard to maintain. Well, so much for that - Dawnflower Dervish it is.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Huh. I actually just realized Leaf on the Wind is a standard to maintain. Well, so much for that - Dawnflower Dervish it is.

Even if it didn't, I couldn't see many instances where I'd rather have +6 AC than +3 attack/damage (inspire) or haste.

[Psyren]

The +6 stacks with everything though, so it amounts to +30% miss chance. Not too shabby. But giving up your attacks for it (and not even being able to Total Defense) is too high a cost.

[gr8artist]

When I was playing my dervish, we had access to the party-wide haste spell. So, no need to do rain of blows. What enchantment is better for a scimitar than keen? So, I never really used that dance either, once I got a +2 equivalent weapon. So, all I ever did was inspire courage on myself anyway. And the dervish dancer has to spend feats that the dawnflower gets for free.
Yeah.

[Daftendirekt]

Yup. And both compete with Inspire Courage for your performance to use.

I much prefer the Dawnflower Dervish. In a party with lots of physical attackers, it's worse than normal bard, but if you plan to be the party's primary melee character, it can't be beat for bard archetypes.

Well, the one I'm making is for a 3.P campaign, so I'm doing a Dawnflower Dervish/Swiftblade with Snowflake Wardance. Yeah. It's gonna be badass.


Huh. I actually just realized Leaf on the Wind is a standard to maintain. Well, so much for that.

So that's why Wash couldn't maintain it with that spike through his chest... The standard action made him start bleeding out again.

[IronFist]

So that's why Wash couldn't maintain it with that spike through his chest... The standard action made him start bleeding out again.
Well played.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, the one I'm making is for a 3.P campaign, so I'm doing a Dawnflower Dervish/Swiftblade with Snowflake Wardance. Yeah. It's gonna be badass.

Unless you're literally the only physical attacker in your party, I'd actually have to say DD is wildly underpowered in a 3.P game. Sure, you can get double of the increased bonuses from Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, Words of Creation, and the myriad of items to boost effective level for inspire courage bonus... and then combine all that with Dragonfire Inspiration to do obscene amounts of d6's...

But it's still more beneficial to spread all that love out to the whole party when it's so plentiful. If the party as a whole ends up making more than 2x the physical attacks per round that you do yourself, you're coming out ahead.

The self-only doubled bonus would get pretty nuts, though... Don't forget to be a Muse-touched (comes with perfect stats and a racial +2 to all perform checks!) Aasimar for the favored class option of +1/2 effective bard level towards inspire courage...

[Daftendirekt]

Yeah, I was speaking for personal badassery. I know that a bard with optimized IC can buff the party to ridiculous levels of damage, but I don't want to do that with this build.