Arcane casters and Stone Shape

[Yogibear41]

Since Stone Shape has a AMC of: Soft clay,
which must be worked into roughly the
desired shape of the stone object and then
touched to the stone while the verbal
component is uttered.

Its basically impossible to use it on the fly in combat for fun things as a sor/wiz but if one takes eschew material that should completely throw this out the window and allow for all sorts of fun correct?

[holywhippet]

Not really a problem from what I can see. The spell says the clay must be shaped into what you intend to change the stone into. It doesn't say it can't be shaped beforehand so you could have a piece of clay already shaped however you want it.

Eschew materials isn't really for that. It just lets you can spells that require a material component with a cost. Provided that cost is one gold piece or less you can skip the component.

[Chronos]

Maybe you shape the clay as part of the casting of the spell? It doesn't say how detailed it needs to be.

[eggynack]

I've always thought that the material component for stone shape was stupid, and I've said so in the past, but per the rules you can find any costless material component in your pouch, and that includes variously shaped clay objects. The question isn't whether or not you can use stone shape on the fly, because you can. The question is how the hell it works, because it makes very little sense.

[TuggyNE]

As eggynack said, per strict RAW this is no kind of a problem, because you can find or make any shape you could ever want as a free action during the casting, and you can't run out of clay to make the attempt either.

Of course, that's so many different flavors of stupid it's pretty pathetic, but hey, I made a homebrew that, among other positive results, wipes this weirdness out for good. (I plug shamelessly, when it seems relevant.)

[Fax Celestis]

I've always thought that the material component for stone shape was stupid, and I've said so in the past, but per the rules you can find any costless material component in your pouch, and that includes variously shaped clay objects. The question isn't whether or not you can use stone shape on the fly, because you can. The question is how the hell it works, because it makes very little sense.

Material components in general are stupid. Half of them are jokes and the others are just nonsensical. Just say if the spell costs GP and be done with it.

[eggynack]

Material components in general are stupid. Half of them are jokes and the others are just nonsensical. Just say if the spell costs GP and be done with it.
True on both counts, but stone shape's material component is more stupid than most. The first possibility is that you're shaping the clay as a free action, but that makes no sense for some of the more complicated uses of stone shape. How do you make a pair of thin pillars, or a bed of spikes, all in a free action? It's just generally improbable, given how many crude structures you can form. The second possibility is that you just have possibly infinite tiny clay sculptures in your bag. You basically need one for every possible shape in existence, and that is a hell of a lot of shapes. Seriously, the number of stone shape material components you need for this to work probably requires more thingamabobs than all the other spells put together, unless there's another spell like this one (greater stone shape doesn't count). It's just ludicrous, is what it is.

[Spuddles]

Perhaps most of the casting time of the spell is spent shaping the clay?

And it may not have to be an exact shape- it could be simply an abstract expression of a clay pot or something.

[eggynack]

Perhaps most of the casting time of the spell is spent shaping the clay?

And it may not have to be an exact shape- it could be simply an abstract expression of a clay pot or something.
Well, how exact are you thinking here? I'd think that a stone cube and a stone cylinder would require completely different material components for this, as would a bed of spikes, a doorway, a small staircase, and a bowl shaped indentation in the ground. Even if you're doing this in a crude manner, which I was actually assuming, you're still looking at a veritable infinity of shapes. I mean, I mentioned a bed of spikes, but how many spikes constitutes a "bed"? Are there five spikes in there, or ten? Those are two completely different shapes. You may say you can be pragmatic about it, and only have the shapes that you use on a common basis, but the pouch has to have room for you to not be pragmatic. You can say, "I usually make star shapes, and big cubes," and the next day make a sphere. Even if you don't need all the shapes, they have to all be there.

As for shaping the clay, how long would it take someone to make a clay sculpture of a staircase, or a bed of spikes? Certainly longer than six seconds, even if they're incredibly talented, and you're supposed to be doing this in a lot less than six seconds. You're able to walk to the other side of the room, say "Stone shapium," tent your fingers in a manner reminiscent of earth, and make a little clay sculpture of a staircase, all in six seconds. It's infeasible, and the wizard doesn't even need to be talented at clay sculpting to pull this off. You don't need any ranks in craft, or even more than 14 points in intelligence. You just need a desire to make complicated shapes. It's crazy, in a manner similar to how buns are crazy.

[holywhippet]

True on both counts, but stone shape's material component is more stupid than most. The first possibility is that you're shaping the clay as a free action, but that makes no sense for some of the more complicated uses of stone shape. How do you make a pair of thin pillars, or a bed of spikes, all in a free action? It's just generally improbable, given how many crude structures you can form. The second possibility is that you just have possibly infinite tiny clay sculptures in your bag. You basically need one for every possible shape in existence, and that is a hell of a lot of shapes. Seriously, the number of stone shape material components you need for this to work probably requires more thingamabobs than all the other spells put together, unless there's another spell like this one (greater stone shape doesn't count). It's just ludicrous, is what it is.

Go reread the strips - specifically the part where Elan wants to take wizard levels. As he says, the system just assumes he's been studying how to be a wizard - even if he hasn't. You don't need to have specifically prepared clay in the shape you desire. It's just retconned that you have done so previously.

[tyckspoon]

Personal justification I just invented: Stone Shape includes a Prestidigitation-like effect to shape the clay into the desired form. It's crude, because Prestidigitation, but it's enough for this particular nod to sympathetic magic. So you just have a few basic blocks of clay and they get molded by the spell itself while you are casting, and then when it's time to actually finish the spell you automagically have a small effigy of what you wanted to do.

[Spuddles]

Well, how exact are you thinking here? I'd think that a stone cube and a stone cylinder would require completely different material components for this, as would a bed of spikes, a doorway, a small staircase, and a bowl shaped indentation in the ground. Even if you're doing this in a crude manner, which I was actually assuming, you're still looking at a veritable infinity of shapes. I mean, I mentioned a bed of spikes, but how many spikes constitutes a "bed"? Are there five spikes in there, or ten? Those are two completely different shapes. You may say you can be pragmatic about it, and only have the shapes that you use on a common basis, but the pouch has to have room for you to not be pragmatic. You can say, "I usually make star shapes, and big cubes," and the next day make a sphere. Even if you don't need all the shapes, they have to all be there.

As for shaping the clay, how long would it take someone to make a clay sculpture of a staircase, or a bed of spikes? Certainly longer than six seconds, even if they're incredibly talented, and you're supposed to be doing this in a lot less than six seconds. You're able to walk to the other side of the room, say "Stone shapium," tent your fingers in a manner reminiscent of earth, and make a little clay sculpture of a staircase, all in six seconds. It's infeasible, and the wizard doesn't even need to be talented at clay sculpting to pull this off. You don't need any ranks in craft, or even more than 14 points in intelligence. You just need a desire to make complicated shapes. It's crazy, in a manner similar to how buns are crazy.

are you familiar with abstract art?

you just squeeze a couple parts, call it a day

it's magic

[eggynack]

are you familiar with abstract art?

you just squeeze a couple parts, call it a day

it's magic
That would be pretty neat. "Hey, Larry the Wizard, why did that random lump of clay create stairs when you used stone shape?" "Did ya see that clay lump? It was giving off 'stairs' vibe like crazy. I took one look at it, and my heart said stairs, and I always listen to my heart-song."

[Spuddles]

That would be pretty neat. "Hey, Larry the Wizard, why did that random lump of clay create stairs when you used stone shape?" "Did ya see that clay lump? It was giving off 'stairs' vibe like crazy. I took one look at it, and my heart said stairs, and I always listen to my heart-song."

Hahaha, yessss

Reminds of the crunchy girl that plays druid

[TuggyNE]

Reminds of the crunchy girl that plays druid

The… the what?

[Spuddles]

The… the what?


crunchy (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crunchy)