Players being overpowered

[PraxisVetli]

So, how does one handle a campaign where the players have done builds not quite as powerful, but definately akin to the ÜBercharger, or are optimized wizards, or other massively powerful builds?
My party has massive damage output, but it's at the point were its inhibiting gameply; creatures simply don't survive long enough to make combat fin.
Now, obviously, higher CR creatures helps, but what happens when the teem hits harder than they can be hit? When they can deal massive damage, but the creatures necessary to survive the impacts can also obliterate the PCs?
Because then the game stops being about builds and starts being about Init roles.
Now, perhaps this problem was caused by bad DMing, and I acknowledge and accept this.
HOW DO I FIX IT??


The thought of anti-magic fields has already occured to me.
EDIT:
it has been brought to my attention that this thread is less about OP charachters, more about tactics and methods of dealing with high output characters!
Or in other words, how to run high powered campaigns.

[Souju]

First question: What TYPE of damage is the party dealing? You mentioned AM field so I'm assuming it's magic damage, which types?
Also, if you could play out how a typical fight goes, that would help as well.

[Red Fel]

So, how does one handle a campaign where the players have done builds not quite as powerful, but definately akin to the ÜBercharger, or are optimized wizards, or other massively powerful builds?
My party has massive damage output, but it's at the point were its inhibiting gameply; creatures simply don't survive long enough to make combat fin.
Now, obviously, higher CR creatures helps, but what happens when the teem hits harder than they can be hit? When they can deal massive damage, but the creatures necessary to survive the impacts can also obliterate the PCs?
Because then the game stops being about builds and starts being about Init roles.
Now, perhaps this problem was caused by bad DMing, and I acknowledge and accept this.
HOW DO I FIX IT??


The thought of anti-magic fields has already occured to me.

Option 1: Talk to the players. Explain to them that you don't feel equipped to run such a high-op campaign. Take the rap for it. Ask them if they would be willing to tone down their op a bit, or if necessary, to start a fresh campaign. If you do start anew, learn from this campaign. Establish specific limits, and communicate them clearly, to prevent similar op from happening.

Option 2: Play to their strengths. They want to escalate? You're the DM - you win any arms race. They can bring in level 9 spells? You can bring in demigods. They can hurl planets? You can summon Atropus. You can match them stride for stride if you try to.

Option 3: Play to their weaknesses. Consider Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/). Sure, they have power. But you don't need power to overcome that; you need tactics. Place them in situations where their specialized builds can't help them, where only brains, not brawn, will save them. See how highly they value being able to warp the fabric of reality when they get killed by swarms of first-level monsters with basic traps and genius tactics.

Option 4: Talk to the players.

[eggynack]

Set up encounters more complicated than, "Here is an enemy within charge range. Charge at it." You can only get so far by making bigger bads. Have there be several monsters of a lower CR, or have the enemies fly, or have an enemy wizard cast a solid fog at them before they can charge in. Wizards are more complicated, and the disparity between wizards and chargers complicates this issue. Chargers aren't anywhere near overpowered in a party with a wizard, partially for the reasons I listed, and partially for issues involving other encounter types. Generally, the only way to stop a wizard is with another wizard. Give the guy some defenses, some of which work against the party wizard's general strategies, and give the guy some offense that you think will work. Without specifics on this matter, there can really only be generalities of this type. On that note, what are the specifics? What does the actual party look like, and what are they specifically doing that causes problems?

[lunar2]

step one. ask the players if it would be ok for them to rebuild their characters, but toned down a bit offensively.

step two a. if they say yes, problem solved.

step two b. if they say no, ramp up your monsters' power level to match.

step three. when they inevitably get TPK'ed, make sure their next characters are not as powerful, and remind them that you asked them nicely first, because it's no fun if combat is just steamrolling through everything, or if it's rocket tag.

[PraxisVetli]

First question: What TYPE of damage is the party dealing? You mentioned AM field so I'm assuming it's magic damage, which types?
Also, if you could play out how a typical fight goes, that would help as well.
No, mostly melee. AMF is for items.
Fight tactics:
charge/roll hide
unload dice
poke to see if still breathing.
if no, loot
if yes, raise eyebrows and repeat first 4 steps.

Set up encounters more complicated than, "Here is an enemy within charge range. Charge at it." You can only get so far by making bigger bads. Have there be several monsters of a lower CR, or have the enemies fly, or have an enemy wizard cast a solid fog at them before they can charge in. Wizards are more complicated, and the disparity between wizards and chargers complicates this issue. Chargers aren't anywhere near overpowered in a party with a wizard, partially for the reasons I listed, and partially for issues involving other encounter types. Generally, the only way to stop a wizard is with another wizard. Give the guy some defenses, some of which work against the party wizard's general strategies, and give the guy some offense that you think will work. Without specifics on this matter, there can really only be generalities of this type. On that note, what are the specifics? What does the actual party look like, and what are they specifically doing that causes problems?
Mostly its all melee based, massive output nimbly-bimblies, (a rogue sneak attacker, an assassin, a ranger, a tank)
and a hyper cleric warmage.
definately been trying the Horde tactic, it works alright.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Advancing monsters instead of bringing up higher CR monsters often brings up their base stats (HP, AC, saves, to-hit, damage) without giving them new, PC-shattering abilities. So there's a start.

PCs can be very hard to kill. Therefore, NPCs can be very hard to kill as well. Casters often make themselves difficult to target, or have layered contingencies. This, however, can be a lot of work.

An ubercharger is relatively easy to handle. If he can charge, he can basically kill everything within a certain range in one round. So, make it difficult to charge (flying enemies, difficult terrain, battlefield control spells). Make enemies spread out and target touch AC (ray of dizziness, ray of exhaustion, Orb of X, Split Maximized Ray of Stupidity), which assuming he uses Shock Trooper will be somewhere in the negatives. Abuse his likely dumped charisma with psions (notice the plural) that manifest ego whip linked to ego whip, potentially augmented further. Uberchargers have plenty of weaknesses, and their damage is often overkill anyway.

And of course, the easiest way to prevent an ubercharger from breaking the game is to have a problem that can't be killed. Diplomacy, mystery, that stuff. All of a sudden he's utterly useless.

The wizard... it depends on how well he's optimized. If it's just a mailman then a counterspeller could do the trick. In general other casters will force him to use actions doing "not blasting" to set up his damage first, at the very least (stuff like True Seeing, Greater Dispel Magic). If it's just a standard TLN batman wizard then he shouldn't be breaking your game in the first place, though he might be allowing the charger to do so. If it's Tippy level then you're going to need to show up with basically his build, but two of them, and higher level and with more resources. But then it becomes some combination of Contingency Checklist: The Game, and Who Is the Cheesiest: The Game. Of course, you could use that fact to demonstrate how "fun" these builds become...

[PraxisVetli]

In most of my campaigns, character death isn't permenant, you go ...somewhere...
(Deity if appropriate, Nerull if not, Bel's stomach if obnoxious)
So I'd rather not just kill, that wont solve much. I have talked to them, and we agreed that there are new limits to what they can do (dmg output to hp ratios) but I'm reluctant to take away hard earned/funded toys, so I'm curious what to do in the time untill things balane out.
@GoodbyeSoberDay
thanks, good ideas for the charger.

as a general side, If my responses are slow, I'm very under the weather, so If You ask and I don't answer right away, its cuz I'm...occupied...
so apologies in advance

[Souju]

seems simple enough to me...have them fighting casters.
Displacement, invisibility, mirror image, major image, stoneskin...grease and entangle alone will stop charges.
Also, find the party member with the lowest will save and cast a confusion spell on him.
There are lots of fun things you can do with casters to really trip up melee fighters.

[eggynack]

Mostly its all melee based, massive output nimbly-bimblies, (a rogue sneak attacker, an assassin, a ranger, a tank)
and a hyper cleric warmage.
definately been trying the Horde tactic, it works alright.
That's pretty easy to deal with then. Basically all of their ability to deal with non-standard situations comes from items, and you know what their items are. Do they have some kind of abnormal vision mode? If not, throw an enemy with mirror image or invisibility at them. Do they have flight? If not, toss flying enemies with ranged attacks at them. Do they have freedom of movement effects? If not, use some BFC's. Do they rely on charging or flanking? Make that difficult to do with one of the many ways to do so (difficult terrain for charging, enemy positioning for flanking). This party, based on what I know, doesn't seem particularly overpowered. If you're just sending guys who stand there and beat face, that's where high damage works best. However, if you act on the party's lack of versatility, make that their downfall. Also, keep sending multiple enemies. You don't need a horde. You just need enough such that the action economy doesn't screw you.

[PraxisVetli]

That's pretty easy to deal with then. Basically all of their ability to deal with non-standard situations comes from items, and you know what their items are. Do they have some kind of abnormal vision mode? If not, throw an enemy with mirror image or invisibility at them. Do they have flight? If not, toss flying enemies with ranged attacks at them. Do they have freedom of movement effects? If not, use some BFC's. Do they rely on charging or flanking? Make that difficult to do with one of the many ways to do so (difficult terrain for charging, enemy positioning for flanking). This party, based on what I know, doesn't seem particularly overpowered. If you're just sending guys who stand there and beat face, that's where high damage works best. However, if you act on the party's lack of versatility, make that their downfall. Also, keep sending multiple enemies. You don't need a horde. You just need enough such that the action economy doesn't screw you.

By horde I was general for multiple, but yeah
So focus on lack of versatility?
whats bfc?

[eggynack]

By horde I was general for multiple, but yeah
So focus on lack of versatility?
whats bfc?
Battlefield control. It covers a pretty wide range of things, from wall of stone, to black tentacles, to solid fog, to impeding stones.

[PraxisVetli]

Battlefield control. It covers a pretty wide range of things, from wall of stone, to black tentacles, to solid fog, to impeding stones.

Oh Alrighty!
theyre next bbeg is a very advanced Zeitgeisr, he should be good for that!

[Madcrafter]

Exactly. It seems like you need to mix up the encounters a bit, and make situations that can't necessarily be solved by direct damage application. There's been some ideas thrown around above, and of course there are old threads full of more. One more I'll add is mooks (and not necessarily weak ones), to make use of the fact that melee has a tougher time spreading damage around to multiple targets (who can in turn flank, use reach, trip, and all sorts of nastiness).

As an example, my group plays fairly high op, and if we meet a monster face to face, it'll be dead in a round or two. But that's not an option we get to exercise all the time. The toughest fight we've had so far was against a pair of modified bulettes, who mostly dug around underground. They caused rifts in the ground that party members would fall into, while leaping out occasionally to jump over someone and claw at them, or engaging one of the singletons in the ditches. The fact out primary fighter could down them in a round or two didn't matter when the only way to hit one most of the time was by readied actions.

Don't take away the toys necessarily, just make it so they can't use them all at once.

[PraxisVetli]

Madcrafter, that bullete tactic is a good idea, Ill try something like it, thanks!

EDIT:
Wouldnt that be solved by Delaying?

[ArcturusV]

Another thing to watch out for, depending on your campaign, is special equipment effects. I find it's pretty overlooked in general. Least around tables I've played.

Take say, the typical Goblin Spear Carrier. It's not very intimidating, generally speaking. But you got someone going Chargelot? Don't forget they can ready an action against a charge, and get a first strike, doubled damage off it before the charger ever gets his axe/sword off his shoulder. It suddenly makes something as silly as a goblin spear carrier into a more credible threat. Course a human piker is even more effective at that with reach on a longspear.

It's why I often talk about equipment (As well as Tactics) when these topics come up. A lot of how NPCs edge out PCs is that NPCs tend to be... well, a group. If you have something like the aforementioned Kobolds, or Goblins, or a Human group, etc... they probably have group tactics they've trained in, drilled in, and are prepared to fight in. Much more than PCs, they work as a single well oiled machine. Even "Savage" Low Int humanoids (And animals) are going to operate with concerted group tactics. Same should apply for Dragons, Demons, etc, etc, etc.

But it's often that the Tactics involve things that players won't use typically, BECAUSE they are group minded tactical organizations, and this is usually reflected in equipment. A player is going to look at something like a whip... or a spiked chain, and go "Pssh, Spiked chain, obvious!" because that way someone with padded armor, or natural armor, etc, doesn't stop your HP damage cold. But a group of NPCs will value the fact that it has the same combat maneuver utility, but 5' of extra range compared to the spike chain, over the whole HP damage issue (Why would they care about the damage? Trip and disarm a guy into helplessness and let your 5 other buddies with spears pincushion him). Same thing with items like Nets, Bolas, using things like Hand Axes and hammers for ranged combat rather than crossbows or composite longbows (Never know when you'll need Slashing or Bludgeoning ranged effects for when Necromancer McAsshat comes knocking next time with his horde of the living dead).

And just using usual weapons, and using them to good effect, can throw players off. I can't count the number of times where my Chargelot players forgot things like "Oh... yeah... that longspear outranges your hurkin' Greataxe... and you take double damage on the way in". Something as simple as... throwing smoke sticks to block off LoS from enemy ranged/spellcasters while engaging melee... just.. the benefits of Stuff. Not to mention stuff PCs almost never use. PCs tend to expect monsters (Particularly intelligent monsters/humanoids) to fight like PCs, when fighting like a PC is generally the worst thing they can do. If they're lone monsters, they want to run and gun to tease out the party and pick them apart rather than wade in and get flanked four ways and smote. If they're group monsters they want to use superior tactics rather than just "outmuscle" the PCs. The PCs rely on Outmuscling enemies. That's their schtick. Really it is. Even when you see "Tactical" PCs like a Batman Wizard, it's not really "Tactical" so much as it's "I Have Sheer Power That I Can Drop At Will".

[Souju]

yes i personally can't overemphasize terrain alteration or manipulation.
You don't even need to make the enemies that much tougher if your players are in a situation where they can't charge.
I remember one fight where my party suffered DEATHS to an encounter we had schooled before because it snuck up on us. A friend of mine even developed a custom enemy type that just uses slings and sickles and managed to take down an entire party because they had trees.
BFC is another big thing. A lot of the most truly OP PCs aren't the ones that can destroy enemies in a single round, but the ones that make it so the enemies can't do anything. Use THAT against the party. As I mentioned earlier, a wizard with displacement, Stoneskin, and invisibility can be more challenging than an iron golem. Especially if said wizard uses spells that require a save the party isn't as strong in (which would probably be Will for at least one of them)
My FAVORITE, though, would be using Confusion effects. The player still ostensibly has control, but it can still wreak havoc on the party.
Also, for added fun, Burning Disarm can buy the enemy a turn.

[PraxisVetli]

Arcturus, you speak truth.
I guess I've always tried to go wham for wham with the pcs,..
apparently, its not so much as theyre op as im bad at challenging them.
BUT NOT NO MORE!

[Crake]

Honestly, what I've noticed is that when players are too high OP for monsters of equal CR, thats when you stop pitting them against monsters, and start pitting them against NPCs with class levels and decent levels of optimisation themselves. Enemy has an Ubercharger? You bring in your own!

[ArcturusV]

Well, I hoped it helped. Didn't mean to make it sound like you were a bad DM. I don't know how to you DM. Hell, I'm sure others consider me a bad DM for various reasons. But yeah. I tend to want to avoid trying to Rocket Tag and come up with sheer power versus sheer power. Sometimes you might have to. Particularly if your player's plans start involving things like the phrase "Shapechange into a Zodar..." or "Ice Assassin..." and the like. At that point you just have to go and match them raw power to raw power.

But presuming it's not that bad yet... just keep the teamwork and equipment thing in mind. If your party is level 8 or something, 4 players, that means a "fair" encounter for Goblins might be something like 16, if I vaguely remember my CR math off the top of my head. At which point you have the Action Advantage, in that you're taking 4 times as many turns as them. So having specialists who do things like chuck Bolas and Nets becomes viable. A whip user focused on trips and disarms, etc. And a few people who throw spears or daggers to stay out of "Huge dumb brute" range while peppering in some damage. And those 1/2 HD goblins will start being a pain in the ass. Particularly if they keep running away while doing this. At the very least having them do something like... 4 guys running trips, 4 guys doing disarms, and 5 guys using volley fire to force some damage in, with 3 in reserve doing things like net harassment. They fight 2 rounds of Tripping and plinking... then run away to their next weapon cache to load up and prepare an ambush again while the big dumb adventurers are busy cutting themselves out of nets and picking themselves up off the ground. Let them have time to heal up, buff again, etc, before charging in. And do it to them again. Making them burn resources, not get kills, and not count as "Passing an Encounter" yet for the day as they've yet to decisively solve it.

After 4-5 runs of that either they're going to get frustrated and you'll find your wizard saying "Hold up... I'mma memorize a Fireball and just nuke the bastards next time!" (congrats, he's now Less OP) or they're going to get into a fight where suddenly these Goblins might be a serious threat because they've exhausted resources.

[Madcrafter]

Delaying would just change the initiative order. The bulettes weren't visible unless they were leaping up to hit someone (on their turn) or if they happened to end their movement in an already exposed trench (which means people have to jump in after them, which for a level 3 PC was not a very appealing idea).

Arcturus has some good ideas too. Use your head, and try thinking like your NPCs would.

That doesn't mean that they should all be super-geniuses though. Every once in a while you can give the party something they can just crush.

Also, I'll just throw an idea out there, which I once used to great effect on a boss-like encounter whose real power came from his magical swords: the Entice Gift spell from the spell compendium. :smallwink:

[PraxisVetli]

Lol Entice Gift
Not really what I'm lookin for here, but a beautiful little spell I think my enchanter might use (totally seperate campaign)

[ArcturusV]

Well, no, not "super geniuses". But remember that the Int threshold isn't as bad as people think. I mean a creature has 8 int? That's basically average intelligence. Might not be so hot at doing Trig... but can probably figure out and execute basic battle strategies. :smallbiggrin:

The other important thing is to keep in mind racial/cultural ideals in how they fight.

Goblins are weak, cowardly, opportunists (typically). Disabling target, getting a cheap shot in, then running away to do it again (Preferably from ambush) is very much in Goblin character. Making Goblin Uberchargers, or Goblin Shield Wall/Phalanx fighters, not so much, if they get wise to the disable and plink plan, then you go with something else that is in their racial character, like using traps and wolves to wear down and outrun adventurers. Drow use a combination of highly skilled swordsman, clerics, and wizards when they fight, along with "Cannon Fodder". So having Drow enemies who use say... bugbears to run and grapple enemies while the wizards and clerics drop AoE doom templates over the battlefield (Nuking their slaves they don't care about along with the party) then having the Drow Warriors on mop up makes sense for them. Dwarves are more likely to go for hard defensive tactics and things like the aforementioned phalanxing, shield walls, etc. Centaurs using their superior mobility over most creatures to outpace them and harass them with ranged attacks, etc.

[Emperor Tippy]

The go to solution for melee that uses AMF is to fly. Very few PC acceptable races have Ex flight. So you sit up in the air and just shoot arrows or other non magical (or Orb of X spells) ranged attacks at them until they die.

Although far more fun is cast a Selective Resilient Sphere on yourself and then sit there and shoot or stab your enemies. It blocks the AMF, can't be taken down so long as the AMF remains up, blocks all non magical methods of attacking you, and lets you attack to your hearts content.

[Spuddles]

A fire giant with 15 levels of cleric is only a CR17 challenge. 30HD and 8th level spells.

[SowZ]

Give scaling HP to ALL monsters. This means-

1. All HD are maxed, (do this for players, too, allowing them to fight above CR with greater survivability.)
2. (This one is a little more complicated.) Add the monsters level to each HD. So at level 1, it is HD plus Con mod plus 1. 2nd level hit dice means HD plus Con mod plus 2. Etc. etc. Here is a little list of how much bonus HPs this will give per level.

1: +1
2: +3
3: +6
4: +10
5: +15
6: +21
7: +28
8: +36
9: +45
10: +55
11: +66
12: +78
13: +91
14: +105
15: +120
16: +136
17: +153
18: +171
19: +190
20: +210
21: +221
22: +243
23: +266
24: +290
25: +315
26: +331
27: +358
28: +386
29: +415
30: +445



This should be accompanied with balances to the magic system, too, otherwise you end up encouraging non HP ways to deal with monsters. If everyone stays Tier 3 or lower it should be fine. But with the ubercharger, even adding 300 or 400 HP won't make the combat too much longer.

[huttj509]

Arcturus, you speak truth.
I guess I've always tried to go wham for wham with the pcs,..
apparently, its not so much as theyre op as im bad at challenging them.
BUT NOT NO MORE!

Just remember you probably don't want to have EVERY encounter customized to shut down things like charging. Mix it up. Let them feel stompworthly OP a lot of the time, but toss in different situations/tactics when appropriate.

[Psyren]

Option 1: Talk to the players. Explain to them that you don't feel equipped to run such a high-op campaign. Take the rap for it. Ask them if they would be willing to tone down their op a bit, or if necessary, to start a fresh campaign. If you do start anew, learn from this campaign. Establish specific limits, and communicate them clearly, to prevent similar op from happening.

Option 2: Play to their strengths. They want to escalate? You're the DM - you win any arms race. They can bring in level 9 spells? You can bring in demigods. They can hurl planets? You can summon Atropus. You can match them stride for stride if you try to.

Option 3: Play to their weaknesses. Consider Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/). Sure, they have power. But you don't need power to overcome that; you need tactics. Place them in situations where their specialized builds can't help them, where only brains, not brawn, will save them. See how highly they value being able to warp the fabric of reality when they get killed by swarms of first-level monsters with basic traps and genius tactics.

Option 4: Talk to the players.

OP, I didn't see you respond to this, but this is the best advice in the thread.

[Xaragos]

Dont be hard on yourself. I find that the higher in level you get, the harder it is to DM challenging encounters, because fights tend to not last very long. You either win relatively quickly or lose relatively quickly.

My favorite thing to do to address some of the things you cited:

Rogues/Barbarians higher level than the PC
Creatures immune to precision damage ala Constructs
Terrain that prevents charging
Battlefield control combos: Entangle + Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog + Stinking Cloud, xx cloud + xx cloud groupings are pretty nasty with special mention to Black Tentatcles
Archers and the party having to deal with long distance
Improved invisibility
Rooms/battle locations the enemy has trapped to thwart the pcs. Make them illusion and mundane based so you would have to search to see it normally, but it is also an illusion so two chances for a PC not to notice. Hey ubercharger you just ran smack dab into a 60 ft deep spike pit!!!
Flight
A handy spell called Delay Death....
Fighting in H2O
Hiss of Sleep fun
Suggestion
Dominate

All sorts of interesting ways to mix things up. Just be sure to mix it up between really hard encounters, moderate, and easy. Nothing more frustrating (personal experience not you) than seeing a DM who complains about character optimization and then optimizes the crap out of everything to the point where a) PCs feel like they have no real options and b) It is only those optimizations that prevent TPKs.

Look forward to hearing how/what you do :)

[Red Fel]

OP, I didn't see you respond to this, but this is the best advice in the thread.

Finally, a little respect!

[Psyren]

Finally, a little respect!

No respect I tells ya, no respect.

(You earned it, I'm tempted to sig that post for all these kinds of threads.)

[PraxisVetli]

OP, I didn't see you respond to this, but this is the best advice in the thread.


Finally, a little respect!

My mistake, I definately saw and read it!
I actually told the players from the beginning it would be high powered, I just think no one told me lol!
My mistake for not postin right away Red Fel!
SowZ, I saw yours too, more hp has been my current tactic, but The creatures needed unrealistic amounts, so it wasn't cutting it. They've been fighting max hp critters for a very long time now, and I dont let them have max, do you think I should? It could work, I was having trouble deciding how to give loot for their current boss, Should I give out potions of "yall got hp?"
Though I think that the extra hp can be scaled down to a more practical level, such as how you've suggested, once combined with creatures not being dumb/strategizing a bit.

I think I'll edit first post..
edit: Red Fel, please don't mistake my abuse of the exclamation point to be sarcasm, I was serious.

[Red Fel]

No respect I tells ya, no respect.

(You earned it, I'm tempted to sig that post for all these kinds of threads.)

None, Psyren, none at all.

And feel free to give into that temptation. What legacy do we leave, after all, but those quotes that others have sigged?


My mistake, I definately saw and read it!
I actually told the players from the beginning it would be high powered, I just think no one told me lol!
My mistake for not postin right away Red Fel!

edit: please don't mistake my abuse of the exclamation point to be sarcasm, I was serious.

No worries, I was teasing, Praxis. But yes, it sounds like if you aren't prepared for their power level, you need to either address it out-of-game (which I strongly recommend) or in-game (which comes across as a bit more passive-aggressive).

And I give you kudos for acknowledging that the limitation may be on your part. The great DMs are the ones who recognize their limits, and can communicate them clearly with the players, thus enabling everyone to have the best possible experience.

The fact that you're willing to acknowledge that you can't keep up with the power the players are bringing is admirable. Let's just hope they're willing to meet you partway.

[Ansem]

I remember a group of experienced players who had a houserule to give every creature 2x max HP for them to keep things interesting.
Perhaps you could max the hitpoints of all your creatures and throw in some abilities for them to debuff and counteract damage so they'll have to think out of the box instead of plain DPS.

[PraxisVetli]

None, Psyren, none at all.

And feel free to give into that temptation. What legacy do we leave, after all, but those quotes that others have sigged?



No worries, I was teasing, Praxis. But yes, it sounds like if you aren't prepared for their power level, you need to either address it out-of-game (which I strongly recommend) or in-game (which comes across as a bit more passive-aggressive).

And I give you kudos for acknowledging that the limitation may be on your part. The great DMs are the ones who recognize their limits, and can communicate them clearly with the players, thus enabling everyone to have the best possible experience.

The fact that you're willing to acknowledge that you can't keep up with the power the players are bringing is admirable. Let's just hope they're willing to meet you partway.
I think they will, most of them are understand. And if some of them are obnoxious about it, they can learn the hard way, now can't they?

I remember a group of experienced players who had a houserule to give every creature 2x max HP for them to keep things interesting.
Perhaps you could max the hitpoints of all your creatures and throw in some abilities for them to debuff and counteract damage so they'll have to think out of the box instead of plain DPS.
The HP thing I do (see previous post) and yeah, new tactics should help a lot.

[JaronK]

What about challenges that aren't just "figure out how to kill this"? Things like figuring out how to evacuate a bunch of villagers out of the way of a volcano's wrath, or perhaps military style missions against an invading army that's so big that they can't just kill all the minions, so they have to make strategic strikes against the enemy leaders and elites (but attacking the minions will warn the enemies of their presence and is thus unwise).

JaronK

[PraxisVetli]

What about challenges that aren't just "figure out how to kill this"? Things like figuring out how to evacuate a bunch of villagers out of the way of a volcano's wrath, or perhaps military style missions against an invading army that's so big that they can't just kill all the minions, so they have to make strategic strikes against the enemy leaders and elites (but attacking the minions will warn the enemies of their presence and is thus unwise).

JaronK

SSSHHHHHHHH!
they'll hear you!!
(One of the next sets of encounters is ninja-striking a militaryish group)

[killem2]

You could throw a dungeon that is completely dependent on them using something other than damage.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288489

:smallbiggrin:

[Karoht]

Combat as a Puzzle.
Acanous is better at explaining this than I am.

The enemy is using a specific trick or gimmick in order to strike the party with impunity. Figure out the gimmick, then the fight becomes a standard encounter again.
IE-Meld with Stone + Project Image
We fought a demon who did this. Once we made the Spellcraft check to identify the Project Image, we used tried using line of effect blocking in order to locate where the Demon was hidden. The Druid even cast a Wall of Stone, flat, as thin as he could to cover the stone floor that they were certain the Demon was hiding in. Which left only one other possibility. The ceiling. So the Druid cast Earthquake and dealt a bunch of damage to the structure, which in turn damaged the demon in the stone, and forced him to exit the stone. At which point it turned into a regular old fashioned brawl with a high power demon.
The point is, once we figured out that demon was using an illusion to cast spells at us while hiding in the stone, it was a simple matter of figuring out which stone he was in (no small feat, lots of stones to work with in that room), before the real encounter could begin. Once we solved the puzzle, we slayed the monster.

Illusions as misdirection (I'm a distraction! I'm a distraction!!!) are an excellent way to drag a fight out for a little longer. Nevermind the excellent and cheaply acquired buff spell that is Mirror Image. What's that, you charged me? Meh, one of my images goes poof. But, since you're in touch spell range, I suppose you can eat a Ghouls Touch.
This is before we get into Invisibility and Stealth.

Separating the party with battlefield control is an excellent way to challenge them. Solid Fog, Stinking Cloud, Sleetstorm, all awesome choices.

Wanna challenge the party with some annoyance? Harass them at night.
Druid Harassment
Are they still sleeping in tents and not a rope trick? Perfect. Throw a druid at them. The Druid uses a bird or insect animal companion to scout the camp. The druid then sneaks to within 100ft of the camp. The druid buffs up a bit, the casts Aqueous Orb on a tent (perferably one that is known to have someone sleeping in it), consuming the whole thing in a rolling ball of water, and rolls it away from the group as fast as possible.
The ball of water rolls into a thick nettled area, where the Druid already cast Spike Stones/Spike Growth. The druid then casts Entangle, and leaves.

The Aqueous Orb runs out of gas or dispells itself when the druid leaves the range of the orb (or the druid can sit at the fringe of range, namely 100ft, and watch the fun). Lets review what happened to the person in the tent. They were sleeping soundly, probably not in their armor, when suddenly they were woken up in a torrent of water, as though waking up in a running washing machine. The water battered that person around for a while, only to dump the victem (and the contents of the tent) in the middle of a tangle of bushes in the middle of the night.

Does the victem have trapfinding/trapsense? No? Then they aren't likely to do so well when they break out of the entangle and step on some Spike Stones/Spike Growth.
Does the victem even know which way back to camp? In the middle of the night? In a thick nasty overgrowth? Good luck with that survival check.
Can the victem shout for help
To make matters worse, the druid (or even a small team of them) could just wait around for a bit, then start dropping lightning bolts on the victem with Call Lightning, or chucking fire at the victem with Produce Flame. If they start to make it out of the Spike Growth/Entangle area? Use another Aqueous Orb and drag them right back in. All while the Druid is hidden in the bushes or sitting at the top of a tree in a Wild Shape of choice.

All of this can be accomplished by a single Druid at about level 6-8. Nevermind a few of them, with maybe some Ranger support.


Then there is itemization. Give more and more of your enemies scrolls or other consumeables for things like buffs and some basic battlefield control. Use these scrolls up, don't sit on them. It will add some variation on standard or basic enemies, and can really add in some of that X-factor that makes a fight much less predictable, therefore more challenging. Consumeables are often recommended because you give the enemy a slight advantage without giving them caster powers or an expensive item which the party then posesses after the combat. And if the party is savvy enough to dispose of the enemies fast enough, they get the unused consumeables, which functions like extra loot.
Then there is the expensive stuff. Fancy weapons, Ring of Freedom of Movement, wands, etc. Personally I find it rather difficult to give expensive items to monsters without a bit of justification. Bandits using Fogcutting Lenses + an Eversmoking Bottle? That's just good ambush tactics. Stuff like that.

Preparation is something not all enemies will have or make use of, but when they do, it should count. That prep can often make a fight feel as though it is another CR or two or three higher than it is. Sometimes that prep time is nothing more than a few rounds to buff up, maybe hold some actions to go off once a door opens. Other times preparation is done long in advance, like a bunch of goblins who have decided to hold up a a choke point in a dungeon because one injured goblin got away from the party down the hall. Sometimes the prep is knowledge of the dungeon, so some orcs hide behind an alter in a room that they know is trapped, and wait for a trap to go off before assaulting the party.
Prepare accordingly.

[killem2]

Oh, and if that doesn't work: Epic Level Handbook - Page 170. Colossus. End Game.

[Karoht]

Oh, and if that doesn't work: Epic Level Handbook - Page 170. Colossus. End Game.One of my party members solo'd one at level 17. Admittedly it came very very close, as he rolled extremely poorly on his damage in the opening volleys. He flew up above it, and then proceeded to dump every bit of magic he had on it.
Unless I'm thinking of a different monster.

[eggynack]

One of my party members solo'd one at level 17. Admittedly it came very very close, as he rolled extremely poorly on his damage in the opening volleys. He flew up above it, and then proceeded to dump every bit of magic he had on it.
Unless I'm thinking of a different monster.
It looks pretty manageable. The colossus has magic immunity and an AMF, but depending on how magic immunity works, it seems vulnerable to orbs. They have no touch AC, and apparently no fire resistance, so shooting them repeatedly in such a manner seems viable. After that, you just have to continuously not die. All three require keeping 30 feet of aerial distance, lest you get reach slapped, but the stone colossus requires no more than that. The iron colossus has a poison breath weapon, but that's easy enough to mitigate. That leaves us with the flesh colossus, which seems trickier. You need some way around its frightful presence, horrific appearance, and stench, or you're probably going to lose. I don't know the exact best way to deal with those things, though I suspect that it's not too difficult. In any case, these guys definitely seem soloable pre-epic.

[killem2]

They all say they have:

Antimagic Field (Ex): A colossus constantly generates an antimagic field in a 100-foot-radius. The field is an invisible barrier that is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines, except for the colossus’s own supernatural abilities. This effect is otherwise as an antimagic field cast by a 25th-level caster.


Magic Immunity (Ex): A colossus completely resists most magical and supernatural effects, except where otherwise
noted below.

then for the first one

Combat
Stone colossusi are formidable opponents, being physically powerful and difficult to harm.
Shatter (Su): A stone colossus can use shatter as a free action once every 2 rounds against an opponent’s weapon or other item as a 24th-level caster. Magic Immunity (Ex): A stone colossus is immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects, except as follows. A transmute rock to mud spell slows it (as the slow spell) for 1 round, with no saving throw, while transmute mud to rock heals all its lost hit points. A stone to flesh spell has no effect on a stone colossus.

And of course construct traits.


I guess I just don't see it. If they have AMF, the have immunity, they have construct traits, and they have a fair amount of hit points, (you can also push their HD to around 200+ or so), I'm shocked that you could brush it off so easily let alone solo it.

According to the OP, it should be right up their alley, not pun pun crazy but still very good.

[eggynack]

I guess I just don't see it. If they have AMF, the have immunity, they have construct traits, and they have a fair amount of hit points, (you can also push their HD to around 200+ or so), I'm shocked that you could brush it off so easily let alone solo it.
Orbs are potentially capable of breaching all of their magic defenses. I know that orbs can work in an AMF, and I similarly know that they breach the immunity to magic effect of golems. However, I'm not sure if they work against magic immunity. The ability says that it makes colossi immune to spells, but is an instantaneous conjuration still a spell when it hits a colossus? There's no real distinction between fire created by an orb of fire and a normal ball of fire, so it'd be odd for the orb to not work. The colossi also lack a strong ranged offense, so flying out of range of their attacks works fine. There're only four abilities between them that work against our noble wizard, and that can't be too hard to work around. Alternatively, you could probably kill it by flying at a distance and gating in creatures. Those seem to obviously get around both magical defenses, and they'll eventually be able to kill the colossus.

[killem2]

Orbs are potentially capable of breaching all of their magic defenses. I know that orbs can work in an AMF, and I similarly know that they breach the immunity to magic effect of golems. However, I'm not sure if they work against magic immunity. The ability says that it makes colossi immune to spells, but is an instantaneous conjuration still a spell when it hits a colossus? There's no real distinction between fire created by an orb of fire and a normal ball of fire, so it'd be odd for the orb to not work. The colossi also lack a strong ranged offense, so flying out of range of their attacks works fine. There're only four abilities between them that work against our noble wizard, and that can't be too hard to work around. Alternatively, you could probably kill it by flying at a distance and gating in creatures. Those seem to obviously get around both magical defenses, and they'll eventually be able to kill the colossus.

I see now. Damn!

[PraxisVetli]

Orbs are potentially capable of breaching all of their magic defenses. I know that orbs can work in an AMF, and I similarly know that they breach the immunity to magic effect of golems. However, I'm not sure if they work against magic immunity. The ability says that it makes colossi immune to spells, but is an instantaneous conjuration still a spell when it hits a colossus? There's no real distinction between fire created by an orb of fire and a normal ball of fire, so it'd be odd for the orb to not work. The colossi also lack a strong ranged offense, so flying out of range of their attacks works fine. There're only four abilities between them that work against our noble wizard, and that can't be too hard to work around. Alternatively, you could probably kill it by flying at a distance and gating in creatures. Those seem to obviously get around both magical defenses, and they'll eventually be able to kill the colossus.

Where does it say orbs work in AMF?!?
-excited, not demanding-

[eggynack]

Where does it say orbs work in AMF?!?
-excited, not demanding-
There's some other stuff under the magic overview listing for conjuration [creation] spells, but the most pertinent source is within the spell itself where it says, "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result."

Edit: The line from the conjuration [creation] section of the magic overview being, "If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence."

[Story]

Where does it say orbs work in AMF?!?
-excited, not demanding-

Instantaneous conjurations work in an AMF. And magic immunity doesn't apply to SR No spells. That's why Orbs are so good.

The only really questionable thing is if you can find something with 3.0 magic immunity that never got updated, because those don't technically have that language.

[eggynack]

The only really questionable thing is if you can find something with 3.0 magic immunity that never got updated, because those don't technically have that language.
Quite so, and this is one of those cases. I find the whole issue rather ambiguous, and tend to side with the orbs bypassing the immunity. It just seems to be the more logical outcome, from my perspective.

[Souju]

Where does it say orbs work in AMF?!?
-excited, not demanding-

orbs are conjuration, meaning the magic just creates something and sends it flying. If you remember the comic, Orb spells were able to hit haley because they checked against AC instead of saving throws. And AMF doesn't stop things CREATED by magic (so it doesn't make stone walls created by Wall of Stone go poof)

[killem2]

After looking at the cost of some of these constructs, and not just in GP, I'd guess some of these wizards would equip custom items of reflect as well lol.

[PraxisVetli]

orbs are conjuration, meaning the magic just creates something and sends it flying. If you remember the comic, Orb spells were able to hit haley because they checked against AC instead of saving throws. And AMF doesn't stop things CREATED by magic (so it doesn't make stone walls created by Wall of Stone go poof)

WIIIIIICKEDDDDD
that's really good to know!

[killem2]

Magic Immunity (Ex): A chain golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted in its entry.


this is what it shows for chain golem in the update manual.

[Elkad]

Pikes (or longspears now).

I'm running one game, and playing another DMs game. He tries to build a couple CR appropriate monsters per encounter, which often results in a big crit roll killing his badguy in the first round. Or a big crit roll killing a character.

I throw LOTS of smaller critters at my group. 8 L4 characters, vs a tower full of basic brigands. I hit them with 16 L2 fighters, 6 3hd flying pets, a couple L4 fighters, and a L7 boss fighter.

I had them fighting up a ramp, through a doorway, into a shield wall backed by spears, with archers above. The flying pets swooped down the next round, after the melee types all rushed up the ramp. Giving the pets plenty of opportunity to interfere with the casters. When the casters rushed up the ramp to get in with the muscle, so they could get help with the giant birds, the boss triggered a rock fall over the gate and got nearly the whole party.

I didn't kill anyone, but I sure knocked a lot of them down. The encounter calculator called it "overpowering". I call it "even".

And then I gave them 20% xp, because 3.5 progression is WAY too fast.

[killem2]

Pikes (or longspears now).

I'm running one game, and playing another DMs game. He tries to build a couple CR appropriate monsters per encounter, which often results in a big crit roll killing his badguy in the first round. Or a big crit roll killing a character.

I throw LOTS of smaller critters at my group. 8 L4 characters, vs a tower full of basic brigands. I hit them with 16 L2 fighters, 6 3hd flying pets, a couple L4 fighters, and a L7 boss fighter.

I had them fighting up a ramp, through a doorway, into a shield wall backed by spears, with archers above. The flying pets swooped down the next round, after the melee types all rushed up the ramp. Giving the pets plenty of opportunity to interfere with the casters. When the casters rushed up the ramp to get in with the muscle, so they could get help with the giant birds, the boss triggered a rock fall over the gate and got nearly the whole party.

I didn't kill anyone, but I sure knocked a lot of them down. The encounter calculator called it "overpowering". I call it "even".

And then I gave them 20% xp, because 3.5 progression is WAY too fast.

This is very true.

In the age of worms module section 3 faces of evil, there is a 6 armed aspect of hextor type looking thing there. Well I knew my players at that point:

ECL-5


Barbarian x2, one had 3 pets/companions
Ranger with companion
Fighter with brown bear wild cohort
Cleric
Two wizards (one highly specialized in necro)
and a rogue.

Well, instead just letting it be 13 vs 1 basically, ever round, undead would spawn out of the pool, and it would be pretty nasty stuff, like 2d6 of a cr2, then 2d6 of cr3, and so on, and eventually they were fighting off a zombie gargantuan mob that almost killed two of them. :smallbiggrin:

In fact one contracted a disease so deadly, they actually had to calculate the nearest church, and who could run the fastest back to make it in enough time. They made it with minutes to spare but it was very fun.

[Waker]

There have been plenty of suggestions of atypical battle tactics and the use of environment, but I'll make a few more.
-Stagger combat flow Rather than have all the combatants out in the open right at the start, consider holding some in the reserve for a few rounds. If the party goes all out in the opening rounds, they may run out of resources or leave themselves exposed to a counterattack. Similarly the enemy may adopt a sacrificial strategy wherein they expose some of them to be defeated by the party and then ambush the party while they are looting/recovering.
-Environmental Concerns There are plenty of aspects of location that can interfere with combat. Mist being blown in can limit visibility, muddy terrain can impede a charge, a flooded field might hide enemies lurking just under the surface, loud noises could trigger an avalanche... Even if the terrain isn't actively dangerous, it can still hinder the party and make them try to use it to their advantage. So will the enemy.

[PraxisVetli]

This is very true.

In the age of worms module section 3 faces of evil, there is a 6 armed aspect of hextor type looking thing there. Well I knew my players at that point:

ECL-5


Barbarian x2, one had 3 pets/companions
Ranger with companion
Fighter with brown bear wild cohort
Cleric
Two wizards (one highly specialized in necro)
and a rogue.

Well, instead just letting it be 13 vs 1 basically, ever round, undead would spawn out of the pool, and it would be pretty nasty stuff, like 2d6 of a cr2, then 2d6 of cr3, and so on, and eventually they were fighting off a zombie gargantuan mob that almost killed two of them. :smallbiggrin:

In fact one contracted a disease so deadly, they actually had to calculate the nearest church, and who could run the fastest back to make it in enough time. They made it with minutes to spare but it was very fun.
Gently resteering the thread...
How do you handle large groups?
My players have been cool enough to let me prerool init and such, having a list that I just go down as combat progresses (i.e. 13,7,18,15,20,6,9)
But handling that many attacks in a round is hassle. Do you use common rolls?
I.e. roll reflex!
*rolls* 22. They all make it.

or do you roll individually?

[Story]

He tries to build a couple CR appropriate monsters per encounter, which often results in a big crit roll killing his badguy in the first round.

Hey look, the BBEG was secretly a Lich in disguise.

[ArcturusV]

The few times I've had large groups like 8 players, I copped out. I ran two concurrent campaigns. So one group on Saturday, one on Sunday, same campaign world, sometimes solving different ends of the same problems. There was an IC connection between the group so if they had to for some reason they could "tag out" and swap teammates. Either due to real life scheduling or percieved need of the adventure arcs they were on.

And running 2 groups of 4 is a lot easier than one of 8. Least in my experience.

[PraxisVetli]

I shouldve been more specific...
I meant groups of Creatures.

[Elkad]

It takes longer. But you get used to it.

My example fight above with 4 groups (birds, melee, archers, bosses) had one initiative per group. Plus individual initiatives for 8 characters and 3 sidekicks/pets.

We keep a pre-numbered magnetic board on the wall. Each character has a magnetic strip with his name on it, plus I have ones labeled "bad 1" thru "bad 6". It's at the opposite end of the table from me. A player is in charge of putting the magnets up next to the appropriate numbers when I call for init rolls, and rearranging them as people hold actions.

I roll combat for my baddies individually. Of course if 5 archers with identical stats target the wizard, I just roll 5d20 at once.

Saves. If it's aoe damage vs low-hp stuff, I have the caster roll damage first. Quite often wounded creatures (or ones with below average hitpoints, since my monsters all actually roll HP) can't survive, so I can pull them off without rolling the save. Then I roll 8d20 or whatever is left. Smoosh the dice into a straight line (if the numbers change, so what). Now I apply each roll in order down my crib sheet.

I use a bunch of numbered tokens (mini poker chips in various colors) for mooks, so I can glance at my pre-prepped chart (of hitpoints, ac, etc) and tell a player to remove goblins 4, 7, 8, and 9 from the board. Sergeants are plastic army men with sharpie numbers on them. Bosses get real minis, and may have a stack of various colored chips under them to represent spell effects.

We have a set of wire frames to mark various AoE shapes. Grab the 20' radius one and drop it on the map where you want your fireball. Figure the damage and saves, then pick it up. If it's a continuing effect, grab a colored marker and draw it on the board. When the Web catches on fire, just erase the squares that burn away.

This group hasn't gotten to that point yet, but in old games (like 2.0 old), really large groups got statistically averaged. 45 orcs need to make a DC15 save or flee roll? 40 of them get averaged (thats 2 of each potential roll, so 1-14 (28 of them) fail). I pick those at random out of the pack, and then roll actual dice for 5 of the remainder just to add a bit of luck.

Same with 80 archers who all need natural 20s to hit the fighter. I don't roll that, 4 of them hit automatically (and then attempt to confirm crits with actual dice)

Is combat slower? You bet. But when the monsters go, everyone is involved in the "please don't hit me" bit, because I have enough attacks for everyone. If initiative breaks up fairly evenly, a couple players go, everyone gets to get stabbed by monsters, a couple more go, everyone saves vs a spell, a couple more players go, then the trap goes off, etc.

It's also a lot easier to cheat this way, without having to fudge dice. Fight going too easy for your players? Have 50% more reinforcements rush in. Players losing badly? Break up the formation foolishly and let players start getting flank bonuses or get through to the bosses in the back.

Plus big packs encourages the wizards to shoot flashy fireballs around, instead of acting like a Tier1. Makes my job easier later.

[DevilsAttorney]

I have no shame in increasing their enemies' HP, or giving them special abilities they don't necessarily have (like giving a knockback ability to all huge creatures and things like that). And I do that without increasing CR. We all know some builds are ridiculously overpowered when compared to other builds of the same level, so I have no issues with increasing the power of an encounter and keeping the same CR experience. Like others mentioned, caster encounters are probably the best way to deal with many aspects of an overpowered team of players.

Basically, be creative. The people I play with all agree that a big dragon's bite probably shouldn't be something you can just brush off. House rules FTW.

[killem2]

Gently resteering the thread...
How do you handle large groups?
My players have been cool enough to let me prerool init and such, having a list that I just go down as combat progresses (i.e. 13,7,18,15,20,6,9)
But handling that many attacks in a round is hassle. Do you use common rolls?
I.e. roll reflex!
*rolls* 22. They all make it.

or do you roll individually?

Most of the group just has rolls ready to go, or know what they want to do right away and they breeze through it. On the DM side I just group the baddies together.