[3.5] Emissary of Barachiel - Forced Alignment Change?

[Psyren]

So, the Emissary of Barachiel's Conversion ability - it looks like they can force evil and even neutral creatures to become Good. It requires 7 failed saves over the course of a week (or a successful atonement cast during the duration), but the DC is equal to your Diplomacy check, so you can optimize the hell heaven out of it to make it almost impossible for them to succeed. You can even lower the target's save by an additional -6 before you start. And while you're with them, so long as they fail each save, they can't do anything evil. You can also teleport them to your base (no save, willing or unwilling) so they can spend the 7 days in confinement while you chip away at their resolve. By day 3 they'll probably be begging to atone, or you can simply wait the 7 days to be safe.

Am I reading this correctly?

[tyckspoon]

You don't even have to stay with them if you don't want to - they have to keep making saves anyway (they get a bonus based on how long you've left them alone, but as you noted your Diplomacy check should be pretty much unbeatable anyway) and they can't even get magical help.. the effect requires a Break Enchantment which has to beat a CL check based ...drumroll please.. your Diplomacy check! You're not beating that one unless you happen to have an infinite-CL Wish-created scroll around or maybe a Persistent Consumptive Field Cleric to do the job. I guess they could hang out in an Antimagic Field for the whole week the effect is running. *shrug* If you have a particular subject you really want to convert you may need to keep tabs on him so you can pop him with the ability again in case he throws a 20 on one of his saves, tho.

Yeah, an Emissary of Barachiel can basically just wander through a typical Mostly Evil Orc Village and do drive-by conversions. Then come back a week later and do it again until they're all Lawful Good... one of the oft-noted oddities about the Book of Exalted Deeds is the the book of Good contains several different ways to effectively mind-control other creatures into changing their very core personalities. Evil doesn't do that - when Evil makes you Evil, it's usually because they got you to do it to yourself. Good? "Make a Will save. You failed? Ok, you're Good now."

[ArcturusV]

Which yes, always seemed odd to me. Kinda makes me wish Charm and Dominate had an [Evil] tag on it. Stealing Free Will and Self Determination doesn't really seem Good. Maybe Lawful if not Evil. Keeps reminding me of that Dragon Magi quote: "You WILL bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity!"

But yeah. I haven't really seen a way to reliably counter that ability myself beyond "Don't get hit by it" or the like. Thankfully despite Book of Exalted Deeds being one I've used a lot at my table no player yet has been devious enough to actually go for that PrC, so most of my worries about it have been theoretical rather than practical.

[olentu]

Yeah it mostly works the way you think. However, I recall that the change is only one step per use, so it could take a few applications to move all the way from evil to good.

It does not seem to really be anything out of the ordinary, just another one of the BoED alignment as a straitjacket based holy mindrapes. I suppose it is faster then sanctify the wicked and requires less work then the diplomacy option though.

[Psyren]

Yeah, an Emissary of Barachiel can basically just wander through a typical Mostly Evil Orc Village and do drive-by conversions. Then come back a week later and do it again until they're all Lawful Good... one of the oft-noted oddities about the Book of Exalted Deeds is the the book of Good contains several different ways to effectively mind-control other creatures into changing their very core personalities. Evil doesn't do that - when Evil makes you Evil, it's usually because they got you to do it to yourself. Good? "Make a Will save. You failed? Ok, you're Good now."

Oh wow good point, I just realized that the conversion hits everybody in a 30' AoE. That's hilarious. So you really can "drive-by convert" the entire orc village, or even a mindflayer hive or something.

I especially love that it doesn't just push you to Good, it pushes you to Lawful Good. Which is Best Good. Naturally. So you can even mindrape your fellow angels/guardinals/eladrin!


Yeah it mostly works the way you think. However, I recall that the change is only one step per use, so it could take a few applications to move all the way from evil to good.

It does not seem to really be anything out of the ordinary, just another one of the BoED alignment as a straitjacket based holy mindrapes. I suppose it is faster then sanctify the wicked and requires less work then the diplomacy option though.

And unlike StW, this works on neutral creatures too. No one is safe! *holy cackling*

So now we have a way to turn the Tarrasque Lawful Good... should be interesting.

[Feralventas]

Why would having an alignment change mean that a foe would suddenly agree with you?

>Chaotic Evil enemy seeks to cause chaos and supports selfishness believing these to be vital aspects of the human experience and very valuable to society over all.

>Converts to Lawful Good.

>Continues seeking to defend aspects of mortal life and methodologies. Perhaps this changes to slightly less lethal means, but still continues to have the same effect.

>Character has been forced to LG, but this does nothing to change their motivations, history, or goals. They simply have a new outlook on the same lifestyle. They may not even like it any longer, but their devotion to the cause is the same, believing it to be more important than their personal well-being.

>Becomes bitter over time, eventually taking satisfaction with each new act of selfishness they see once again.

>Slippery slope back to the abyss.

[Psyren]

Well, they don't necessarily have to agree with you specifically, but they do have to act in accordance with their new alignment. Once the effect is permanent they can go start (gradually) sliding back to where they were, but if they do, you can simply find them again for another friendly nudge.

After a few years of this they will probably give up and just stay good.

[Feralventas]

I don't doubt that one can be Good, but sharing an alignment is never enough on its own to prevent one from being Antagonistic. The ability noted above is potent sure, particularly against classes and prestige classes that have alignment requirements. Still, it shouldn't be taken as being an instant lock-down against adversarial antics. If anything, there's cause for the subject of it to look at their own behavior, consider it, link it to the Emissary's presence and activities, and act on the mind-screw like it is, particularly if the character values personal freedom.

It would be like putting down a Thrallherd to free their flock.

[ArcturusV]

Granted, but remember this is also from Book of Exalted Deeds that says things like "Good beings, regardless of differences in Law vs. Chaos, will never fight one another", more or less up front. As the whole idea is that Good beings are hippies who all get along no matter their "slight" ideological differences.

So if you go and mindrape someone into being Lawful Good like you, they're not going to go out of their way to stop you. They might not help you... but they won't "fight" you in any way.

At least according to that book.

[Psyren]

So the BBEG may challenge you to a stirring debate, or maybe a bake-off. You could even let him win, before you both chuckle and go out for chocolate sundaes.

(Mmm, sundaes)