[3.x] Potential House Rule: "Save" Points

[Maginomicon]

I'm not talking like "save your progress points", but point values associated with your saving throws. The goal is to make saving throws at least partially a gradual defense instead of just a binary defense (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1533.0). However, I also wanted to make it dirt simple to explain and track.

Here's what I have so far:

Basically, you don't resolve "what happens after a save" until after deducting some value from a gradual defense.

Your save points (SPs) are Fortitude Points (FP a.k.a. "your immune system"), Reflex Points (RP a.k.a. "your reflexes"), and Will Points (WP, a.k.a. "your willpower"), and have a minimum of 0 and a maximum of "100 + (5 * that save's base bonus)".

To randomly determine each of a random monster's initial SPs, instead of a flat 50, roll a d% (for a flat probability curve) or (3d6*5)-2 (for a more realistic bell curve). Either way, then add 5x their save base bonuses as normal (calculated from their creature type and/or class levels).

Recovering SPs:
At every level-up, you reset each point value to its new maximum.
24 hours of non-restful non-strenuous activity (such as walking) causes you to recover "10 + half that save's base bonus (rounded down)" to each SP as appropriate.
A "full rest" (usually 8 hours) that doesn't result in fatigue/exhaustion causes you to recover "20 + that save's base bonus".
A "full day" rest (i.e. bedridden) that doesn't result in fatigue/exhaustion causes you to recover "40 + (2 * that save's base bonus)".

Every time you succeed on a saving throw, deduct half of the save DC (rounded down) from the appropriate SP. Then any normal effects on a successful save resolve.

Every time you fail a saving throw, first deduct the entire saving throw DC from the appropriate SP. Then roll a d%.

d% > SP = Save Failed (normal effects for a failed save resolve)
d% ≤ SP = Save Succeeded (normal effects for a successful save resolve)


Afterthoughts:

Admittedly, this only fixes one of the two-fold errors described (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1533.0).
Evasion and Mettle become much more powerful because successful saves happen a lot more often in-general. Personally, I'm fine with that because low tiers (which are far more likely to have access to Evasion or Mettle) deserve nice things.
Improved Evasion becomes slightly weaker because failed saves happen a lot less often in-general. Personally, I'm fine with this because Improved Evasion on top of Evasion means that you're something of an action-movie badass that "can't be hit".
SPs give everyone a reason to rest (beyond the normal rules for what happens when you go without sleep (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280467)), as while HP damage can be healed, nothing apart from the three methods above recovers SP (and non-strenuous non-restful activity is only half as effective as a full rest).
A Heward's Fortifying Bedroll becomes very powerful because it grants the benefits of a full rest in one hour. This is fine because you're only able to use it once per day and you're paying money for something that's normally only useful for non-mundanes anyway.


What I want to know:

What would the above system make non-functional or worthless as-written?
What (besides no-save effects) becomes significantly more powerful with the above system?
PEACH on how to improve upon the above for the better.
Links to existing saving throw "gradual defense" variants.


What I do NOT want to hear:

Whining about how spell slots etc. will be "wasted" now because they attacked a now-gradual defense.
Claims that the binary save defenses are fine as-written.
Whining about it not resolving either one of the two-fold errors.

[eggynack]

Tying this kinda thing to leveling doesn't make much sense. I'd just give it a daily refill, and maybe not default it as starting at 100+.

[Maginomicon]

Tying this kinda thing to leveling doesn't make much sense. I'd just give it a daily refill, and maybe not default it as starting at 100+.
The same could be said for 3.5 Action Points.

[eggynack]

The same could be said for 3.5 Action Points.
Action points are usually less tied to day to day gameplay than saves are. You can easily have zero action points, particularly because most games don't have them, and be perfectly ready to play the game. In that way, it doesn't particularly matter if you can predict when action points restore. By contrast, making saves work in this manner gives characters a high potential to be completely susceptible to save or X's for long periods of time. If you want to do this HP style, you may want to skip perfect refilling for the most part, give a little SP restoration each night, and put some save refilling factors in the game. I'd definitely set the max a bit lower in that case, because it becomes something of a per-encounter resource, depending on the efficiency of healing factors.

[Maginomicon]

Action points are usually less tied to day to day gameplay than saves are. You can easily have zero action points, particularly because most games don't have them, and be perfectly ready to play the game. In that way, it doesn't particularly matter if you can predict when action points restore. By contrast, making saves work in this manner gives characters a high potential to be completely susceptible to save or X's for long periods of time. If you want to do this HP style, you may want to skip perfect refilling for the most part, give a little SP restoration each night, and put some save refilling factors in the game. I'd definitely set the max a bit lower in that case, because it becomes something of a per-encounter resource, depending on the efficiency of healing factors.
How about removing the level-up reset but every morning you arise from a full rest without being fatigued (such as from resting in armor) you restore 10 + save base bonus to each SP value as appropriate?

I'm iffy on reducing the base maximum below 100 because then for every 5 below 100 that's one more save bonus increment by level that doesn't make you partially effective against the first attack vs a save.

[TuggyNE]

I've not yet finished it, but my Will Points system idea is based on this.

The title of this thread is truly unfortunate, though.

[Maginomicon]

I've updated the OP with three ways to recover save points. The intent with these changes is to allow you to recover some of your immune system (Fortitude Points), reflexes (Reflex Points), and willpower (Will Points) some small amount even without resting, with rest being far more effective for recovery. A "full day" of rest recovers four times the value because 24 hours of rest heals twice as much HP and ability damage compared to a daily rest. This also means that you might want to take a few days of R&R after a campaign or dungeon, which makes logical sense in-character.

Personally, I feel that making effects that target saving throws have to eat through a gradual defense like this makes those kinds of effects far less powerful in-combat. Of course, boosting the effect's DC helps you still, as the target can still fail the save and the increased DC means that on a failed save it deducts more points and thus has a greater chance of going into effect from their d% roll. This adds the concept of "softening up" a target with weaker low-level effects before making the killing blow, which has the neat effect of making lower level effects intrinsically useful even in later levels.

The ability modifier is not included in the calculations for maximum points or recovery because there is nothing apart from leveling up that can change the base modifier for a save. Consistency in those values is crucial so that you don't have to recalculate your points every time you gain ability boons or take ability penalties/damage/drain. Boosts to saves themselves are excluded and thus only benefit your front line defenses (the saving throw) but not your internal resources (the save points), which makes sense because steeling yourself should boost your ability to ping off an effect that targets you, but not boost your reserves.

[Maginomicon]

Looking through the numbers, your SPs wouldn't have remotely been able to keep up with the things you're casually exposed to on a daily basis. Plus, the recovery methods didn't scale at the same rate as the maximum. Given these factors, I've tweaked the recovery numbers a little so that a normal "full rest" recovers exactly 20% of the maximum. The other numbers are changed accordingly. A "day rest" (bedridden) now recovers 60% of the maximum. The downside is that the first case of recovery has dropped to 10% of the maximum, which should be fine.

[Maginomicon]

Holy hell! This in-practice seems to make the offensive power gap largely meaningless. As-expected, no-save effects, recovery effects, and buffs aren't affected, but absolutely everything else (which is pretty-much the entirety of offensive-type magic/psionics) now has to have two rolls to complete an effect (almost like a miss chance). That's a big deal. Much like HP is the gradual defense that determines how much more your resilience can take before it fails you, FP/RP/WP is a gradual defense that determines how much more your immune system, reflexes, and willpower can take before they fail you.

Caster-type players I've tested with don't even mind it so much so long as they know going in that there's a higher chance of their action being "wasted" (although it's not really "wasted" since no matter what happens the target is going to lose some points from that save). Much in the same way that knowing that you did HP damage is a step closer to defeating the monster, dealing FP/RP/WP damage is a step closer to a save-or-lose effect

Effects that require saving throws for other effects (such as poisons and the fortitude save in the death and dying variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/deathAndDying.htm)) become less deadly as well, but that's okay.

I will admit, this severely weakens the per-day offensive SLAs of monsters, but it makes sense in-context.

The only thing is... should I have some kind of gradual effect of having lower values on an SP? For example...
{table=head] At or below... | Saving Throw Penalty
75 | -2 |
50 | -5 |
25 | -8 |
0 | -10 |
[/table]
As-is, having low save points doesn't really have an effect on its own other than that "miss chance". Adding something like this would be almost like the condition track in SWSaga.

[Kazyan]

If you're going to apply penalties to the saving throws when the number of Save Points decreases, maybe you could make a character's modifiers and their Save points one and the same in order to streamline the system. I Propose that your saving throws would be basically expressed as a gauge. For example, denote a "full save modifier" as the modifier without any point damage, and express a character's "current save modifier" as, just throwing this out there, +20 out of +20 if they would normally have +20. Then, when Save Points would be deducted, deduct a fraction of their saving throw, becoming something like +19.4 out of +20. Current save modifier would be expressed in tenths. In this way, a character's saves slowly decrease. To preserve the "miss chance", a character would have to make a second saving throw against their full save modifier as the DC, instead of rolling a d% and comparing that to their SP. So, with +20 out of +20, the character would almost certainly succeed, but when brought down to, say, +3.2 out of +20, their chance of making that secondary saving throw would be a lot slimmer. You can put a lower limit equal to your full saving throw minus 20 on the current save modifier, if desired

I am not sure how to calibrate this, though. Here's a shot at it, so you get some ideas:

When you succeed on a saving throw, deduct 1/10 of the save DC from your current save modifier.

When you fail on a saving throw, deduct 2/10 of the save DC from your current save modifier. Them make a saving throw of the appropriate type vs. your full save modifier. Success = original save succeeded (normal effects for a successful save resolve); failure = original save failed (normal effects for a failed save resolve).

24 hours of non-restful non-strenuous activity (such as walking) causes you to recover 1 + 1/10 that save's base bonus to each SP as appropriate.
A "full rest" (usually 8 hours) that doesn't result in fatigue/exhaustion causes you to recover 2 + 2/20 that save's base bonus.
A "full day" rest (i.e. bedridden) that doesn't result in fatigue/exhaustion causes you to recover 4 + 4/10 that save's base bonus.

[Maginomicon]

If you're going to apply penalties to the saving throws when the number of Save Points decreases, maybe you could make a character's modifiers and their Save points one and the same in order to streamline the system. I Propose that your saving throws would be basically expressed as a gauge. For example, denote a "full save modifier" as the modifier without any point damage, and express a character's "current save modifier" as, just throwing this out there, +20 out of +20 if they would normally have +20. Then, when Save Points would be deducted, deduct a fraction of their saving throw, becoming something like +19.4 out of +20. Current save modifier would be expressed in tenths. In this way, a character's saves slowly decrease. To preserve the "miss chance", a character would have to make a second saving throw against their full save modifier as the DC, instead of rolling a d% and comparing that to their SP. So, with +20 out of +20, the character would almost certainly succeed, but when brought down to, say, +3.2 out of +20, their chance of making that secondary saving throw would be a lot slimmer. You can put a lower limit equal to your full saving throw minus 20 on the current save modifier, if desired

I am not sure how to calibrate this, though. Here's a shot at it, so you get some ideas:

When you succeed on a saving throw, deduct 1/10 of the save DC from your current save modifier.

When you fail on a saving throw, deduct 2/10 of the save DC from your current save modifier. Them make a saving throw of the appropriate type vs. your full save modifier. Success = original save succeeded (normal effects for a successful save resolve); failure = original save failed (normal effects for a failed save resolve).

24 hours of non-restful non-strenuous activity (such as walking) causes you to recover 1 + 1/10 that save's base bonus to each SP as appropriate.
A "full rest" (usually 8 hours) that doesn't result in fatigue/exhaustion causes you to recover 2 + 2/20 that save's base bonus.
A "full day" rest (i.e. bedridden) that doesn't result in fatigue/exhaustion causes you to recover 4 + 4/10 that save's base bonus.
I don't even know what to say to that. :smalleek:


I should... I should never have to mess with numbers like "19.4".

Even so, that's assuming they had a +20 to that save (which is nearly impossible until late-game, don't debate on that). Having to divide a realistic modifier like say... +7... means I'm having to keep track of a decimal point on the character sheet that changes by -.7 on a successful save and -1.4 on a failed save. :smallannoyed:

This might be feasible in a computer game, but in a tabletop game? No.

[WbtE]

I'm not clear on how these differ conceptually from hit points. (The mechanical difference is clear.) HP are meant to include a character's reflexes, stamina, and willpower, among other things, already. I'm also quite sure that fortitude points are more than immune system - if not, how do they help with being turned to stone? :smallwink:

Regarding the system as written:

1. I don't think that strongly randomised save points really fits the idiom of 3.x. This subsystem would be a better fit if the value was derived from a creature's other statistics. Alternatively, derive the creature's "Save Dice" from its other statistics, as with Hit Dice.
2. I simply don't like the extra d% roll. You could perform this kind of function on the original saving throw. One way to do this is only imposing the full effects of the spell if the unadjusted roll to save exceeds one-tenth of the relevant SP pool. (e.g. Making a Reflex save at DC 19 with a +4 modifier and 60RP means that a 15+ on the die succeeds, 1-6 is fully absorbed by RP and 7-14 is a full failure.)
3. I presume that magical recovery of SP is possible but not implemented. My "fluff" concern at the introduction has to be picked up again here, because I don't know why a cure spell wouldn't restore SP.

[Maginomicon]

I'm not clear on how these differ conceptually from hit points. (The mechanical difference is clear.) HP are meant to include a character's reflexes, stamina, and willpower, among other things, already. I'm also quite sure that fortitude points are more than immune system - if not, how do they help with being turned to stone? :smallwink:They differ in the same way that the fatigue and exhaustion condition states are conceptually different from HP. I see hit points as like shaving off your personal "luck" bit by bit until your luck has run out and you're wounded. Really, there's endless debates on what exactly HP represents and I don't want to get into that here. Your "immune system" however is everything in your body that fights against something bad. Whether it's white blood cells, the hypothalamus, or any other defensive or regulatory system in your body, it's used to fight against intruders and illness.


1. I don't think that strongly randomised save points really fits the idiom of 3.x. This subsystem would be a better fit if the value was derived from a creature's other statistics. Alternatively, derive the creature's "Save Dice" from its other statistics, as with Hit Dice.One, that's optional. You could just as easily assume an average roll (50) plus the constant given. It fits the idiom of 3.x in that creature HP is determined by a roll that's calculated by dice plus a constant. Most GMs just usually use the listed average HP value for all instances of that creature. The Base Save Bonus must be used because it is constant between levels much like your BAB.


2. I simply don't like the extra d% roll. You could perform this kind of function on the original saving throw. One way to do this is only imposing the full effects of the spell if the unadjusted roll to save exceeds one-tenth of the relevant SP pool. (e.g. Making a Reflex save at DC 19 with a +4 modifier and 60RP means that a 15+ on the die succeeds, 1-6 is fully absorbed by RP and 7-14 is a full failure.)
If you do this, it then wouldn't end up scaling as you level up. Further, again with the one-tenth fraction headaches... why are we doing this mess? Besides, wouldn't it be 1~6 is a full failure, 7~12 is absorbed by points as a successful save attempt, and 13~20 is absorbed by points but a failed save attempt?


3. I presume that magical recovery of SP is possible but not implemented. My "fluff" concern at the introduction has to be picked up again here, because I don't know why a cure spell wouldn't restore SP.No. It's deliberately impossible. Much for the same design reasoning as why Ability Burn can't be recovered by anything but natural healing, this is so that the ONLY thing that can recover save points is natural healing.