Spell Lists

[Ruethgar]

My Google Fu is failing me. I know there are ways to get spell lists from other classes, but I can't find them. Anyone know some ways? Namely to get the juicy trapsmith spells?

[Chronos]

For an arcane class like Trapsmith, the only way I know of to get the whole list at once is via Chameleon. A warning: The text is a bit unclear, but you might be able to access only one list at a time, so if you're taking advantage of Trapsmith's underleveled spells, you can't also use non-trapsmith arcane spells the same day.

There are a few prestige classes that let you add spells one at a time, too. I think the most versatile is Wyrm Wizard.

[Yuki Akuma]

For an arcane class like Trapsmith, the only way I know of to get the whole list at once is via Chameleon. A warning: The text is a bit unclear, but you might be able to access only one list at a time, so if you're taking advantage of Trapsmith's underleveled spells, you can't also use non-trapsmith arcane spells the same day.

How are you getting that reading?


Arcane Focus: You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class. You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook (chameleons often use stolen or borrowed spellbooks; see page 178 of the Player's Handbook for details). Your spells per day are noted on Table 5—2: The Chameleon. You gain bonus spells for a high Intelligence score, just as a wizard does. When Table 5—2 indicates that you get 0 spells per day of a given spell level, you gain only the bonus spells you would be entitled to based on your Intelligence score for that spell level. Your caster level is equal to twice your class level. You also gain a +2 competence bonus on Knowledge (arcana) checks and Spellcraft checks and a +2 bonus on Will saves; at 5th level, the bonuses improve to +4.

Seems fairly clear to me - you can choose spells from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class.

[Chronos]

From any class, singular. You can choose any class. If you choose Trapsmith, then you get Trapsmith spells. You can't choose "trapsmith and wizard", because "trapsmith and wizard" isn't any class, it's two classes.

[Ruethgar]

Spell to Power Erudite was the one I was recalling mention of. I want to be able to cast a War Wall of Stone at as low a cost as able. Erudite can do that, if I can find someone with a trapsmith war wall which Chameleon makes an easier task. Actually being a Chameleon to cast it would not work because of the massive material cost. I suppose I could try and fit a few Chameleon levels in so I could be guaranteed a spell from any list, and be able to have War Magic Study be my floating feat. Will have to look at it a bit more to see if I could make it work well.

[Morcleon]

From any class, singular. You can choose any class. If you choose Trapsmith, then you get Trapsmith spells. You can't choose "trapsmith and wizard", because "trapsmith and wizard" isn't any class, it's two classes.

Actually, you don't choose a class list. You choose spells, which may come from any class list. The phrase "which may be chosen from the list of any arcane spellcasting class" modifies the world "spell", indicating that each spell must be chosen from the aggregate list comprised of the spells from any arcane casting class' spell list, not that a specific arcane casting list is chosen to pick spells from.

[Chronos]

Yes, but "list" is still singular. You can get your spells from any list. What list are you getting your spells from?

[Morcleon]

Yes, but "list" is still singular. You can get your spells from any list. What list are you getting your spells from?

You may select it from any list. This means that each spell is selected from any list, not from a single list. Using the words "any lists" would be grammatically unconventional.

Also, from a fluff standpoint, it doesn't make sense for the Chameleon to be limited to only one spell list at a time. They aren't limited in bonus feats, and the class' whole shtick is versatility.

[lsfreak]

Yes, but "list" is still singular. You can get your spells from any list. What list are you getting your spells from?

"Any list" is grammatically singular but semantically plural. To get a semantically singular phrase, you must add "single," "one," or a similar term: "any one list," "any single list."

[Chronos]

I can see interpreting it either way, which is why I said it was unclear, and might be read that way.

[Morcleon]

I can see interpreting it either way, which is why I said it was unclear, and might be read that way.

Occam's Razor. The simplest reading is generally the correct one. In this case, the minuscule detail of "list" not being capitalized is nuance that wouldn't generally be picked up, nor would it have been intentionally vague. Still, I do understand where you're coming from.

[Yuki Akuma]

I can see interpreting it either way, which is why I said it was unclear, and might be read that way.

Interpreting a class feature of a class designed to be able to imitate any other class at a moment's notice by restricting their ability to imitate any other class at a moment's notice is really reaching.

[nedz]

My Google Fu is failing me. I know there are ways to get spell lists from other classes, but I can't find them. Anyone know some ways? Namely to get the juicy trapsmith spells?

There are several ways but they mainly depend on your actual spellcasting class. Trapsmith spells are arcane so can be grabbed by almost any arcane caster. I take it you are trying to get access to the spells as lower level spells, this will likely turn out to be counter productive since a straight arcaneist will be able to get them at a lower character level anyway.

[Yuki Akuma]

There are several ways but they mainly depend on your actual spellcasting class. Trapsmith spells are arcane so can be grabbed by almost any arcane caster.

[citation needed]

Seriously I do not get this "arcane casters can get all arcane spells" thing people sometimes bring up. That's seriously not how it works.

[nedz]

[citation needed]

Seriously I do not get this "arcane casters can get all arcane spells" thing people sometimes bring up. That's seriously not how it works.

List of the 1st level Trapsmith spells


Arcane Sight
Cat's Grace
Clairaudience/clairvoyance
Dispel Magic
Fox's Cunning
Gaseous Form
Haste
Knock
Protection from Energy


Any old Sorcerer or Wizard can grab these, just not as first level spells.

[Yuki Akuma]

List of the 1st level Trapsmith spells


Arcane Sight
Cat's Grace
Clairaudience/clairvoyance
Dispel Magic
Fox's Cunning
Gaseous Form
Haste
Knock
Protection from Energy


Any old Sorcerer or Wizard can grab these, just not as first level spells.

Oh, well that makes sense.

Of course, the reason you'd want to grab Trapsmith spells isn't because they're somehow special and unique. It's because they're incredibly low-leveled.

[Chronos]

Interpreting a class feature of a class designed to be able to imitate any other class at a moment's notice by restricting their ability to imitate any other class at a moment's notice is really reaching.
Except the class isn't "at a moment's notice". It's "each day". If you want to switch from using one class's spell list to another, you can do that whenever you have the opportunity to change your focus. Even though the chameleon can emulate anyone, and at higher levels can even emulate multiple classes at once, there's no indication that the class is supposed to be able to emulate everything at the same time.

[nedz]

Oh, well that makes sense.

Of course, the reason you'd want to grab Trapsmith spells isn't because they're somehow special and unique. It's because they're incredibly low-leveled.

Which is what I said in the first place :smallsigh:
Maybe I wasn't clear.

My other point:

The earliest you can enter Trapsmith is 6th, by which time a Sorcerer or Wizard already has access to all of these.

The higher level Trapsmith spells are better, but become available at 8th and 10th for the Trapsmith. Now there is a little mileage here except that your trapsmith only gets to know a few of these and the selection is quite limited. Also he can never gain spells outside of this list and will know only 9 spells at 10th. So he perhaps gains a small advantage for a few levels.

He does get skill points and the trap Shtick so maybe Beguiler is a better comparison. Again most of these spells are on the Beguiler list or can be acquired with Arcane Disciple quite easily.

The Trapsmith spells are only OP if you can acquire them by other means.

The Chameleon trick would seem to fail for these though because Chameleons are required to prepare their spells from a spell book, and Trapsmith doesn't use a spellbook.

[karkus]

Using the words "any lists" would be grammatically unconventional.

"Any lists found in this library should be sorted into this pile."
I just want to say that I completely agree with everything else you said; a Chameleon gets any spell from any list.
:smallamused:

[Yuki Akuma]

The Chameleon trick would seem to fail for these though because Chameleons are required to prepare their spells from a spell book, and Trapsmith doesn't use a spellbook.

Neither do Bards or Assassins. Chameleons can scribe spells from other lists into their spellbooks.

They can prepare divine spells from any class, so why would they be limited to only Wizard and Wu Jen spells for their arcane spells?

[Morcleon]

"Any lists found in this library should be sorted into this pile."
I just want to say that I completely agree with everything else you said; a Chameleon gets any spell from any list.
:smallamused:

...used in the context of that particular rule. :smalltongue:

[nedz]

You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook (chameleons often use stolen or borrowed spellbooks; see page 178 of the Player's Handbook for details). Your spells per day are noted on Table 5—2: The Chameleon. You gain bonus spells for a high Intelligence score, just as a wizard does.

You need to find a way for the Trapsmith to scribe their spells into a spellbook. Arcane Preparation may allow this but that would seem to be an unusual choice of feat.

[Yuki Akuma]

You need to find a way for the Trapsmith to scribe their spells into a spellbook. Arcane Preparation may allow this but that would seem to be an unusual choice of feat.

Or you can get a Trapsmith to craft a scroll. It says Chameleons often use stolen or borrowed spellbooks, not that they can't make their own.

[Captnq]

Become a 9th level artificer.
Scribe any scroll you want with a good enough UMD check.
???
Profit.

[Ruethgar]

Artificer has an even more massive cast attached to it for a war wall.

Cleric 5, Chameleon 2 with the Trickery and Pact domains could get any spell on their domain list. That is a bit better, but still has the price tag. At least I could more easily get a cohort like that and Erudite the spells out of him.

[Chronos]

Filling up your spellbook as a chameleon isn't a problem. Spend your floating feat on Extra Spell, grab whatever spell you want, write it in your book, grab another spell the next day.

[Ruethgar]

It's getting it as an arcane spell known for an Erudite to steal that is trickier with 7-9th level spells. Getting a Arcane Disciple or using Sorcerer Domain Access and using the floating feat to Customize Domain gives you domain spells from any list you have access to(all of them) as arcane spells for the Erudite to steal. Also, since the Euridite isnt actually learning spells, they can circumvent that whole three feat tax for [War] spells.