Bringing the tiers in line.

[tricktroller]

Ok folks, so have there been any discussion on how to bring all the classes more in line with each other? I think if everything could be brought up to and brought down to tier 2 or 3 the game would be even more fun for people.

If not, then let us discuss this. How would you bring Tier 1's down to tier 2? How would you bring Fighter up to tier 2?

Some things are obvious like, restrict/remove polymorph and other iterations of it, and restrict/remove teleports and the like.

Fighters gaining class features as well as feats would be fun but what kind of class features to give besides completely ripping off Pathfinder?

Thoughts, comments, etc?

[Yuki Akuma]

To bring Tier 1 down to Tier 2, you just need to limit their options - Wizards can only know x number of spells, Clerics can only prepare spells from y number of domains available to their god, etc.

To bring the Fighter up to Tier 2 you need to give him spells, or something of similar potency to spells.

[Egopunk]

You cannot believe just how many there have been. I'll let someone else link you to them, I don't feel like board mining.

[Egopunk]

Common fixes include allowing teir 4 and below to gestalt with an NPC class and teir 6 to gestalt with any other teir 4 or below, allowing free LA, lower point buys for teir 1 and 2 higher point buys for 4, 5 and 6. Etc.

[tricktroller]

Well let's say for this discussion that you wanted to bring all of the classes to tier 3.

That is what I want to run for, make life easier for my return to the world of DMing. I personally love letting people play broken characters but I haven't DMed in at least 4 years so I want to bring the power levels down for a minute.

I would love to get together with people and rewrite 3.x into a tier 3 system. Nothing too crazy to worry about and still a lot of fun.

[tricktroller]

One of the things one of my groups does to help with all the classes is to combine lots of skills that make sense being together. Hide/move silently = stealth spot/listen = Perception Open lock/disable device = disable device etc etc making skills easier for characters to have and be good at.

What tier would you all say the Pathfinder fighter would be in 3.5?

[Egopunk]

3. All the pathfinder melee classes were redesigned to aim for teir 3, and their template for this was the 3.5 tome of battle classes.

[ArcturusV]

Depends on what you want. Remember that Tier 2 isn't really "Less powerful" than Tier 1. It's just less versatile. So you're not really putting a leash on anyone if you knock their tier 1 to a tier 2. They can (And may) still break your game over their knee. Whereas tier 3 is this nebulous magic tier that doesn't really seem that well defined. Including everything form "Powerful stuff that isn't a mage so can't be tier 2+" to "Extremely well rounded stuff" and so on. The difference between Tier 2 and Tier 3 is much wider than the number difference would suggest.

It sounds like you're talking about trying for Balance as a means of Fun. If not, I'm sorry for missing the mark. At which case there are simple things you can do to help impact the balance of classes.

Like: Give the fighter 4 + Int skill points per level. Really I think that should be more of a minimal amount for a mundane character as they depend on skill points in order to have greater utility. The fact that the fighter gets the same skill points as a Cleric... Not the most promising.

Fighter ACFs are many, and good things. So that helps out as well. Another "Fix" I see quite often suggested you might want to run is to give Fighters automatic scaling on their Fighter Bonus feats. e.g.: If I take something like two-weapon fighting at level 1, I automatically get all the benefits of the rest of the two-weapon fighting chain as I level without spending extra feats on it.

Allowing Fighters to retrain their Fighter Bonus feats each day: Also a common "Fix" I see bandied about, and not a terrible idea at all.

I'll make a mention of, but not carry on, about the usual "Just use Warblade instead of Fighter" sort of thing to make them tier 3. But probably something someone will say at some point.

Limiting Wizard ACFs so the only one they have is PHB specialization? That's a ding, but not a huge one. Make it so UMD can't get around banning a school? Another ding, but not enough. Removing the capability to bypass your banning, another ding (So no Shadow ____ of a school you banned, you can't summon creatures that have abilities of a school you banned, or they just can't use those abilities). Another ding to Specialists. But generalists themselves are still ungodly powerful. Sharply limiting access to Magic-Mart, and requiring them to conduct research for new spells, along with a campaign that doesn't allow months and years of "Downtime" between adventures is another solution, as that would sharply limit their spells known down to generally 2-4 per level or so.

Having Clerics ONLY able to cast domain spells from the domains of their god? Probably an easy and cheap fix to knock their power down from Tier 1 to possibly as low as 4-6 depending on their God.

Nix Wildshape and the Animal Companion and you basically got a tier 2 Druid.

[johnbragg]

Well let's say for this discussion that you wanted to bring all of the classes to tier 3.

That is what I want to run for, make life easier for my return to the world of DMing. I personally love letting people play broken characters but I haven't DMed in at least 4 years so I want to bring the power levels down for a minute.

I would love to get together with people and rewrite 3.x into a tier 3 system. Nothing too crazy to worry about and still a lot of fun.

Two things I"m working on to bring the Tier 1 classes down. I'm not sure how far down, though.

For arcane casters (gish Wizards and Sorcerers together): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306459&page=2

1. Power Points: You have 2 PP/CL per day, plus Charisma bonus or CL, whichever is lower
2. Base Price: A spell has a base price of 2^SL power points.
3. Spellcraft discount: When you cast a spell, roll Spellcraft. For every 10 on your check, the spell costs one less PP. (Yes, the cost can drop to zero, and it often will).
4. Spontaneous casting: You can spontaneously cast (CL*INT bonus) spell levels worth of spells, as long as you have the Power Points. Plus 2*INT bonus cantrips.
5. Prepared casting: You can memorize other spells from your spell book, spending the Power Points when you memorize them. Your spell books are very bulky.
6. Learning spells: Spellcraft check, DC 20 + SL, and another check to add it to your “spontaneously cast” list. To learn a spell, you need to be high enough level. (CL = SL*2 – 1)
7. “Protospells” To cast high level spells and/or craft high-level magic items, you need either other casters to contribute PP, multiple days to store the PP in a physical object, or both.

For divine casters, split them into Adept-Clerics and Warrior-Clerics. Warrior-Clerics use the NPC WArrior class (d8 hit dice, full BAB, all weapons and armor), adding Domain spells and abilities. Adept-Clerics use the NPC Adept class (d6 hit die, 1/2 BAB, simple weapons, no armor) and either cast spells using the Cleric spell progression, or the Adept spell progression plus the Warrior-Cleric's domain spells.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307053

[JaronK]

Fixes I've played with that help, but are not amazing:

1) Ban T1 and T2 classes. T4 classes can gestalt with T6 classes. T5 classes can gestalt with other T5s. Simple and sweet and effective, but you can't play as a Wizard (Factotum, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Binder, Warmage, and so on have to fill that role).

2) Completely rebuild the T1 and T2 classes to weaken them. I've got my own rebuild in process that's fun to think about, but still leaves them firmly in T2 at least... just not as strong. Things like "Clerics get 5 domains, but they can only cast their main spells spontaneously from those domains. Their usual +1 spell is the only one that's chosen (memorized in advance) from the main Cleric list. Also, they get one domain power at level 1, and then get their other domain powers (in whatever order they want) at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. They don't gain Turn Undead automatically, but any domain power that effects Turn Undead gives them that power." Honestly though, there's still a lot of power even after heavy nerfs.

JaronK

[Psyren]

Assuming 3.P, with T3-T4 as a desired endpoint:

High Tiers
Wizard/Witch - replace with Staff Hex Magus and Alchemist.
Sorcerer -replace with Sound Striker Magician Bard.
Druid - replace with Wildshape Mystic Ranger and cherry-pick additional druid spells for their list.
Cleric - replace with Preacher Inquisitor with option to choose Judgement or Channel Energy.
Oracle - spell progression as Bard, + Adept list.
Summoner - Ban

Low Tiers
Rogue: Replace with Ninja, retain Trapfinding.
Cavalier/Samurai: Give both Iaijutsu and Mount, gestalt with Aristocrat or Noble.
Fighter/Gunslinger: Gestalt with Expert.

[Der_DWSage]

One of the things one of my groups does to help with all the classes is to combine lots of skills that make sense being together. Hide/move silently = stealth spot/listen = Perception Open lock/disable device = disable device etc etc making skills easier for characters to have and be good at.

What tier would you all say the Pathfinder fighter would be in 3.5?

Actually, Pathfinder Fighters tend towards Tier 4. They're specialists-their only method of dealing with problems is doing lots of damage to it. They might intimidate people into giving them information, or they might stop an army via sheer legend of their power, but their primary means of dealing with problems is putting something sharp through them.

[tricktroller]

Well here are a few of the ideas I have for taking tier 1 down a notch, anything that makes you into another class ie divine power tensers transformation, goes away. Reduce spells per day but give more class features, remove all ACFs and instead turn them into class features that are pickable. Spells are available from any book but you have to find them. Random chance for them to be where you want to buy them. Familiars give a static bonus like the first table but don;t do much else, no delivering touch spells etc. Clerics can pick between domains OR turn undead not both.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Tier 3 would be the point to aim for: in Tier 3, all classes can contribute in almost all situations, and stand a decent chance of having an ability or abilities that can help swiftly overcome the encounter. It's probably the optimum balancing of player empowerment ("I have stuff that can help!"), mechanical options, and game-altering power.

To do that, we need to do a few things.

Lowering Tiers 1-2: To accomplish this, you have to neuter the spells themselves. D&D's spellcasting is far to varied and far to powerful to allow for Tier 3 without excessive limitations: hence why the Tier 3 casters are things like the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and so forth. They're great classes with unique and fun class features, but they lack the variety and raw number of possibly options that the standard Wizard possesses due to their heavy school restriction. Our "magic does everything and I have mastered all magic" Wizard has no place in a Tier 3 game unless we seriously tone down what magic is capable of.

Raising Tiers 4+: These classes need to be diversified, as a general rule. Mundane classes (the only magical classes this far down are the Healer, Warmage, and Truenamer) suffer from what I like to call the "specialization" problem: they're made to fulfill a single fantasy. You are a Barbarian, or a Swashbuckler, or a Fighter (who what...fights? As opposed to the other classes, which also fight?), and that limits them in the fact of things like the Bard (who...does everything, and pretty decently) or the Beguiler (who is an illusionist...but also an enchanter...but also a social skillmonkey with some other tricks). A lot of these classes need to be completely rebuilt with a broader focus and more options for play: I'd probably combine a lot of them into one or two classes with a lot of playstyle choices.

Alternatively, use the Tome of Battle. It's low Tier 3, but it's still Tier 3.

[Red Fel]

Well here are a few of the ideas I have for taking tier 1 down a notch, anything that makes you into another class ie divine power tensers transformation, goes away. Reduce spells per day but give more class features, remove all ACFs and instead turn them into class features that are pickable. Spells are available from any book but you have to find them. Random chance for them to be where you want to buy them. Familiars give a static bonus like the first table but don;t do much else, no delivering touch spells etc. Clerics can pick between domains OR turn undead not both.

So, you're saying...

- Remove anything that changes you into another class: Removes versatility, down tier.
- Reduce spells per day: Doesn't substantially impact versatility, negligible.
- Get more class features: Potentially increases versatility, potentially up tier.
- Remove ACFs, replace them with selectable class features: That's not actually a change at all; that's kind of the definition of an ACF.
- Spells available but must be purchased: That's an inconvenience; that doesn't substantially impact your versatility. Negligible.
- Familiars give a static bonus: I don't play a caster, but from what I hear familiars are only popular in specialized builds. Even assuming they have a familiar, this doesn't impact versatility. Negligible.
- Domains or TU: This is a substantial nerf. These are two of the defining categories for clerics - spells and TU. Forcing them to choose will definitely reduce their versatility. It will also change them as a class. Down tier.

Overall, your proposed changes - with two exceptions - don't reduce the versatility of a given class. Versatility is the cornerstone of the tier system. What exactly are you trying for?

You say your goal is to put everything at Tier 3. That means, in essence, that everyone has the same level of versatility - they can do one thing outrageously good, or several things moderately well, but they can't do everything. DiT has this down - to lower Tiers 1-2, you would need to limit casters so substantially that they could only do a handful of things; it would require almost fundamentally changing spellcasting. Similarly, to raise Tiers 4+, you would have to give every class the ability to do substantially more than they were designed to do. And let's not count capstone abilities in this; some classes would need oodles of boosts. For example, a Monk would need a much stronger progression, the innate ability to enchant/enhance his natural weapons, the ability to fly at will, diplomatic and skill-based boosts, and maybe some spell-like abilities. At what point does he in no way resemble a Monk anymore?

Truenamer is not salvageable. We move on.

[Psyren]

Truenamer is not salvageable. We move on.

Truenamer can be salvaged, it just needs homebrew to do so. Check out Kyeudo's fix in my sig for a fun and balanced version.

[Red Fel]

Truenamer can be salvaged, it just needs homebrew to do so. Check out Kyeudo's fix in my sig for a fun and balanced version.

Huh. That's... actually pretty nice. I concede my position.

[tricktroller]

The classes I would want to focus on first would be the Core classes. I am working on writing up some ideas I have for a cleric that would be hopefully tier 3. Sometimes I get caught up in cool things when writing and go way overboard.

What I meant by remove ACFs and make them selectable class features is remove them and make up my own selectable class features. Class features that you gain at each level but that, hopefully, should not be broken nor have a best of breed option that everyone will pick every time.

For instance I am sort of combing the cleric and paladin classes.

1st level Pick 3 class features one from each of the 3 tables.
D8 HD 3/4 BAB heavy armor prof simple weapon prof normal table for cleric casting (spell selection changed)

Table 1
1) 2 domains/ domain powers/ 1 domain spell per level perday
2) Turn Undead/ Smite Enemy/ Aura of Courage
3) Church Relic *

Table 2
1) Battle Cleric -1 spell per level per day/ Full BAB/ All Martial Weapons
2) Cloistered Cleric all knowledges as class skills / lore / +4 Skill points per level for use on knowledges only
3) Journeyman Cleric +1 Hit point per level / Sleep in any armor/ use sorcerer spells known and casting table

Table 3
1) Healer +Ranks in heal to cure spells / cast cure spontaneously
2) Torturer +Ranks in heal skill to inflict spells / cast inflict spontaneously
3) Balancer +1/2 Ranks in heal to cure and inflict spells/ cast either spontaneously

* A church relic is a masterwork weapon or suit of armor that cannot be sold or traded without losing all of your cleric class features and spells. At 3rd level and every 4 levels after the relic gains a +1 enhancement bonus, at 5th level and every 4 levels your relic gains a +1 enhancement bonus that may be used to purchase special abilities.

What do you guys think? Its pretty rough I just started working on it. But basically every class gets features at every level at 1st you get to pick between three sets of three choices which might get more added later to increase variety.

Basically I want people to still feel powerful but not have every single ability ever that you can pick plus spells plus WBL plus yadda yadda.

I think I might reduce the cleric number of spells per day even further on here. Maybe something like

Spells per Day1
0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1 3 1 — — — — — — — —
2 3 2 — — — — — — — —
3 3 2 1 — — — — — — —
4 4 2 1 — — — — — — —
5 4 3 1 1 — — — — — —
6 4 3 2 1 — — — — — —
7 5 3 2 1 1 — — — — —
8 5 4 2 2 1 — — — — —
9 5 4 3 2 1 1 — — — —
10 6 4 3 2 2 1 — — — —
11 6 5 3 3 2 1 1 — — —
12 6 5 4 3 2 2 1 — — —
13 6 5 4 3 3 2 1 1 — —
14 6 5 4 4 3 2 2 1 — —
15 6 5 5 4 3 3 2 1 1 —
16 6 5 5 4 4 3 2 2 1 —
17 6 5 5 5 4 3 3 2 1 1
18 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 2 1
19 6 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 2 1
20 6 5 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2

Can't figure out how to set this dumb thing up as a table.

[DungeonDelver]

I think Tier 3 is the best tier. Lots of power or versatility, less world breaking.

If you can't cast, minimum of 4 skill points per level (this also applies to classes like Paladin and Ranger who get casting later). Fuse skills like spot and listen, hide and move silently. Add class skills to classes that might actually be able to use them or need them. Scale the Focus/Specialization feats like others said.

Kill polymorph and it's ilk, kill the sheer number of buffs clerics get, and drop wildshape off the side of the planet. Hit the save-or-sucks with a nerf stick.

Nerf Wildshape down to Shapeshift ACF, or kill it completely. Rearrange the Cleric buffs so that they're not Spell Jenga as much and ban DMM altogether.

TL;DR version: If you don't cast spells, you get more skills. If you do cast spells, your spells can't let you replace whole party members anymore.

Not the only fixes by far, but I think they'd at least contribute.

[tricktroller]

I have an easy fix for wildshape, unless you have seen a real one, you cannot wildshape into it. No summoning critters so you can change into them later, you have to have seen it to change into it, you have to watch how it moves for at least 3 rounds and then you can write it on your list of things you can wildshape into like a spell book of creatures.

I like the idea of Divine metamagic but I think it will need to be reworked. I like that you can DMM a persistent spelled buff but I think it should be harder to do.

All non caster classes will get at least a 2 point per level skill boost to compensate and the class skills list will be removed, anyone can take anything, and certain skills will be grouped instead of being multiples.

[DungeonDelver]

I have an easy fix for wildshape, unless you have seen a real one, you cannot wildshape into it. No summoning critters so you can change into them later, you have to have seen it to change into it, you have to watch how it moves for at least 3 rounds and then you can write it on your list of things you can wildshape into like a spell book of creatures.

The problem is that the ability is still on the Nature Guy. I mean it would kill a little bit of the versatility, but not much. Druids have wild empathy, druids have woodland stride. Druids can easily go out and meet new animals.

I mean yeah, it would stop them from going 'I know the perfect form for this!' all the time, but ultimately it would only delay the druid's massive wildshape versatility, not kill it.

[Yuki Akuma]

I have an easy fix for wildshape, unless you have seen a real one, you cannot wildshape into it. No summoning critters so you can change into them later, you have to have seen it to change into it, you have to watch how it moves for at least 3 rounds and then you can write it on your list of things you can wildshape into like a spell book of creatures.

This is a common houserule that absolutely fails to work. How do you determine if you've ever seen a certain animal or not? It's not as if characters appear from the ether at level 1 with no prior life experience.

And don't even get me started on characters starting above level 1.

[tricktroller]

They would still have to find it, and that means in order to keep down the forms they can pick all I have to do is not have those creatures available to be found. They can go out and look for fleshrakers all they want but they will never find them. So on top of not being able to shift into anything they can think of I can behind the scenes mitigate their power curve of forms. They have to tell me what they are looking for and then I will either allow or disallow the form.


That's not hard to fix Yuki, with the class features that will be available to first level druids it will determine how many animals you have seen. Or the easier way is to say you can learn 2 forms per level and may swap out 1 from previous levels at each level and say you cannot gain forms until you can wildshape.

[lsfreak]

-snip-
D8 HD 3/4 BAB heavy armor prof simple weapon prof normal table for cleric casting (spell selection changed)

While the other things make for more interesting choices while first building the character (I'll point out that a lack of further class features does nothing to keep you from PrCing out), it's the bolded part we really need to know for determining whether it's in the T3 range or not. After all, sorcerers, psions, clerics, and wizards could all have zero class features and it wouldn't affect their placement among the tiers in the least. For example, take a look at how Rebalancing Compendium (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2096.0) did clerics: every cleric gets the same 10-ish spells per level, plus an extra 3 from each of their two domains. Period. Compare that to normal clerics, who have roughly nine times more spells to choose from at 2nd level.

EDIT: That Wild Shape fix utterly fails to be an appropriate fix, because it is entirely dependent on the DM. Much like how wizards are "supposed" to be limited by having the DM say which non-Core spells are available and which ones aren't, it's not a fix. It's shoddy design covered up by Rule Zero.

[johnbragg]

The problem is that the ability is still on the Nature Guy. I mean it would kill a little bit of the versatility, but not much. Druids have wild empathy, druids have woodland stride. Druids can easily go out and meet new animals.

I mean yeah, it would stop them from going 'I know the perfect form for this!' all the time, but ultimately it would only delay the druid's massive wildshape versatility, not kill it.

What if, instead of wildshape X/day, X was the number of animals you could wildshape into?

Because "guy who turns into a bear and rides a Dire Bear into battle while summoning bears" is pretty much the core of being a D&D druid. I'd hate to lose that.

[tricktroller]

I like the idea of two forms per level starting at the level they gain wildshape. Also I like wildshape being a selectable class feature.

I really like that list of spells for the cleric but instead of 3 spells per domain I think two would be approriate and I think that you should get one spell per level which is determined by the type of cleric you pick aka battle, cloistered, or journeyman.

[Red Fel]

The classes I would want to focus on first would be the Core classes. I am working on writing up some ideas I have for a cleric that would be hopefully tier 3. Sometimes I get caught up in cool things when writing and go way overboard.

What I meant by remove ACFs and make them selectable class features is remove them and make up my own selectable class features. Class features that you gain at each level but that, hopefully, should not be broken nor have a best of breed option that everyone will pick every time.

For instance I am sort of combing the cleric and paladin classes.

1st level Pick 3 class features one from each of the 3 tables.
D8 HD 3/4 BAB heavy armor prof simple weapon prof normal table for cleric casting (spell selection changed)

Table 1
1) 2 domains/ domain powers/ 1 domain spell per level perday
2) Turn Undead/ Smite Enemy/ Aura of Courage
3) Church Relic *

Table 2
1) Battle Cleric -1 spell per level per day/ Full BAB/ All Martial Weapons
2) Cloistered Cleric all knowledges as class skills / lore / +4 Skill points per level for use on knowledges only
3) Journeyman Cleric +1 Hit point per level / Sleep in any armor/ use sorcerer spells known and casting table

Table 3
1) Healer +Ranks in heal to cure spells / cast cure spontaneously
2) Torturer +Ranks in heal skill to inflict spells / cast inflict spontaneously
3) Balancer +1/2 Ranks in heal to cure and inflict spells/ cast either spontaneously

* A church relic is a masterwork weapon or suit of armor that cannot be sold or traded without losing all of your cleric class features and spells. At 3rd level and every 4 levels after the relic gains a +1 enhancement bonus, at 5th level and every 4 levels your relic gains a +1 enhancement bonus that may be used to purchase special abilities.

What do you guys think? Its pretty rough I just started working on it. But basically every class gets features at every level at 1st you get to pick between three sets of three choices which might get more added later to increase variety.

Basically I want people to still feel powerful but not have every single ability ever that you can pick plus spells plus WBL plus yadda yadda.

I think I might reduce the cleric number of spells per day even further on here. Maybe something like

Spells per Day1
0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1 3 1 — — — — — — — —
2 3 2 — — — — — — — —
3 3 2 1 — — — — — — —
4 4 2 1 — — — — — — —
5 4 3 1 1 — — — — — —
6 4 3 2 1 — — — — — —
7 5 3 2 1 1 — — — — —
8 5 4 2 2 1 — — — — —
9 5 4 3 2 1 1 — — — —
10 6 4 3 2 2 1 — — — —
11 6 5 3 3 2 1 1 — — —
12 6 5 4 3 2 2 1 — — —
13 6 5 4 3 3 2 1 1 — —
14 6 5 4 4 3 2 2 1 — —
15 6 5 5 4 3 3 2 1 1 —
16 6 5 5 4 4 3 2 2 1 —
17 6 5 5 5 4 3 3 2 1 1
18 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 2 1
19 6 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 2 1
20 6 5 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 2

Can't figure out how to set this dumb thing up as a table.

Okay. So you've decided that one way to streamline tiers is to combine a T1 Cleric and a T5 Paladin. And you feel the goal should be to have a choice of features at different levels, with no feature being the "clear winner." Let's have a look.

So, the first choice of features is between spellcasting, auras and turning, and a magic item. Yeah, magic item's gonna be a dump choice, unless you make it outrageous. And turning and auras are nice, but most players would rather be able to use things that affect all enemies, rather than just the undead that they might or might not encounter. So, spellcasting is likely to be a clear winner here, especially given the fact that a lot of divine casters give up their turn uses to boost their spellcasting. (See e.g. DMM.)

The second choice is between nerfing casting in favor of BAB, getting a skillboost, or... I don't even know what theme you were going after with Journeyman. But, again, given that spellcasting gives you more diversity of options, including increasing your attack rolls, players are likely to choose that option over the one that nerfs casting in favor of BAB. Players are also not likely to choose the skillboosting one, since they chose the Cleradin class, which is designed more around smashing and smiting than being a skillmonkey. If they wanted that, they might have rolled rogue or bard.

The third table is the only one that adds an actual choice, in that it's basically pure benefit - either you get a boost and spontaneous casting, or you get a boost and spontaneous casting. The other tables gave you a downside to your choice; this doesn't.

Overall, again, I wonder what you're trying to do. It sounds like you're just offering a lot of "what if we did this neat thing" options without actually examining their ramifications.

Combining Cleric and Paladin into a single class doesn't really change the fact that it's still a Cleric. Making players choose between turning, spellcasting and a magic item isn't a choice; they chose cleric, they'll choose spells, which trump the other two. Giving a choice between BAB, skills, and spells, is again not a choice, because in 3.5 spells trump the other two. You are, in essence, telling people who want to play Clerics that they have to give up their turning and some BAB. They do that when they play Cloistered Cleric and use DMM. This is not new, and does not change the Cleric's tier.

You also propose reducing their spellcasting overall. Again, that's more of a nerf to power than versatility; even with reduced BAB, a cleric can handle melee better than most casters, can cast spells both offensive and defensive, and basically has a range of available options that other classes lack. This is what makes a Cleric Tier 1, and your adjustments don't seem to change that.

[Fax Celestis]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124934
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164574

Relevant.

[Tvtyrant]

I prefer simply making Wildshape and Animal Companions part of a separate class, with the Spirit Shaman being the castery guy. I don't think being the Nature Guy requires all of the nature powers.

[Draz74]

The easiest way is really to just adopt homebrew fixes for non-T2/3 classes that have already hit the mark.

For example, a good start would just be to allow the following class list:


Tome of Battle classes
Ernir's "Vancian flavor, Psionics mechanics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002k)" spellcasting classes
Factotum

Then, when your players start to feel like this isn't enough options, expand as needed:

Jiriku's Monk
Bears With Lasers' Figher Fix
Totemist
Ernir's Tinker
One Winged Angel's Paladin
PId6's Swashbuckler
Kyeudo's Truenamer
Psychic Warrior
Dragonfire Adept
Warlock
etc.

Of course minor tweaks on these classes are always fair game as well. (E.g. giving the Warlock more Invocations (and skill points); fixing the Factotum's many little poorly-written bits, such as Cunning Strike being useless or Cunning Brilliance arguably granting full spellcasting for 1 minute.)


Depends on what you want. Remember that Tier 2 isn't really "Less powerful" than Tier 1. It's just less versatile. So you're not really putting a leash on anyone if you knock their tier 1 to a tier 2. They can (And may) still break your game over their knee.

Well, the big advantage of T2 over T1, balance-wise, is that it's a lot easier for the DM to prevent T2 breaking the game in "real time" as the campaign progresses. If the DM nerfs or bans a game-breaking spell, then the Wizard can just learn another one ... whereas the Sorcerer is more likely to be stuck with the nerfed version, or to pick a non-banned replacement spell that's more appropriate.

In theory, the nerfs and bans can be declared as house rules across the board before the campaign even begins, which fixes T1 just as much as it fixes T2. But the number of DMs who want to put that amount of prep work into balancing mechanics is very small. So in practice, T2 ends up being less troublesome than T1.

[Gemini476]

One quick-fix I've seen for nerfing wizard is to give him Adept spell slots... Except for his specialization, where he gets up to to the standard amount of slots that are limited to his school.
It makes the wizard more varied than things like the Beguiler, admittedly, So I do wonder if it wouldn't be better to just go 5e-style and have him just get 1 specialization slot/spell level.

The first version gives him the following spell slots:

Spells per day
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|3+0|1+0|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|3+1|1+1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|3+1|2+0|-+1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|3+1|2+1|0+2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|3+1|2+1|1+1|-+1|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|3+1|2+1|1+2|-+2|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|3+1|3+1|2+1|-+2|-+1|-|-|-|-|-

8th|3+1|3+1|2+1|0+3|-+2|-|-|-|-|-

9th|3+1|3+1|2+2|1+2|-+2|-+1|-|-|-|-

10th|3+1|3+1|2+2|1+2|-+3|-+2|-|-|-|-

11th|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+2|-+3|-+2|-+1|-|-|-

12th|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+2|0+3|-+3|-+2|-|-|-

13th|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+2|1+3|-+3|-+2|-+1|-|-

14th|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+2|1+3|-+3|-+3|-+2|-|-

15th|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+2|-+4|-+3|-+2|-+1|-

16th|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+2|0+4|-+3|-+3|-+2|-

17th|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+2|1+3|-+4|-+3|-+2|-+1

18th|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+2|1+3|-+4|-+3|-+3|-+2

19th|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+2|-+4|-+4|-+3|-+3

20th|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+2|-+4|-+4|-+4|-+4[/table]

An alternate idea I've been considering is to make the Generalist Wizard an adept with access to the Sorcerer/Wizard list, with specialized wizards being like the Dread Necromancer(Necromancy), Warmage(Evocation/Conjuration), Beguiler(Enchantment/Illusion). Maybe add some (Divination) and (Abjuration/Transmutation) spontaneous list casters. Speaking of which, make the Healer spontaneous.

I remember reading something someone wrote about remaking the PHB classes so that they used other mechanics - Sorcerer used Psionics while Druid used Pact Magic, for example, while the Paladin was a Meldshaper and I think the Bard was an Utterance-User, maybe? Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

[tricktroller]

Well Red what changes would you make to the cleric class to reduce them?

I am already going to implement the spell list change that was talked about earlier, reducing number of spells reduces versatility by making you choose which spells you get.

You keep attacking my choices but not offering new ones instead to put in place, kindly stop telling me "You are doing this wrong!" and instead tell me "I would do this instead." Otherwise you aren't helping.

I already said this was a very rough starting idea that I literally just thought of, so yeah I haven't really thought all the ramifications through.

I have already thought of a few changes to make that should help move some of the power around and versatility as well as surviveability.

I understand some of these have been "fixed" by others but the idea here is to have one set of redone rules with playgrounders all pitching in to make something fun, balanced, and something we all would want to play.

Each of those things you listed are one person fixing a class in their way.

[Red Fel]

Well Red what changes would you make to the cleric class to reduce them?

I am already going to implement the spell list change that was talked about earlier, reducing number of spells reduces versatility by making you choose which spells you get.

You keep attacking my choices but not offering new ones instead to put in place, kindly stop telling me "You are doing this wrong!" and instead tell me "I would do this instead." Otherwise you aren't helping.

I already said this was a very rough starting idea that I literally just thought of, so yeah I haven't really thought all the ramifications through.

I have already thought of a few changes to make that should help move some of the power around and versatility as well as surviveability.

I understand some of these have been "fixed" by others but the idea here is to have one set of redone rules with playgrounders all pitching in to make something fun, balanced, and something we all would want to play.

Each of those things you listed are one person fixing a class in their way.

You know, you're absolutely right. I have not been as constructive as I ought to have been with your suggestions, and for that I apologize.

The fact is, it's hard to make spellcasting anything other than the powerhouse of the system it was more or less designed to be. Spellcasting is potent.

Others have submitted excellent homebrews and suggestions. Some of them tweak the classes in minor ways, some basically require you to rebuild the class substantially.

My advice would be to think of the tiers by their definitions. Remember that Tier 3 means a class that's exceptional at doing one thing, or moderately good at doing multiple things, but not as good as specialized classes. The key thing that distinguishes a T3 from T1-2 is that a T3 lacks "game-breaking" abilities. These tend to be level 9 spells that alter reality, like Wish, or ones that substantially change combat dynamics, like Shapechange. Removing those from the spell list helps avoid the game-breaking mechanic.

The next step is to adhere to the model. For a Cleric, that means either make him very good at one thing, or reasonably good at several things.

Let's look at three ways to do this.

1: The dedicated Divine Spellcaster. Basically, this is a Cloistered Cleric with an adjusted spell list. We take away his martial weapon proficiencies, as well as medium and heavy armor, and reduce his BAB. We'll adjust his spell list, removing some particularly powerful spells. In particular, let's remove Miracle, Gate, Summon Monster IX, and similar. Maybe remove the bonus Knowledge domain. Maybe we let him keep Turn Undead. He is now a dedicated, cloth-wearing caster, like a Wizard or Sorceror but casting divine spells. He is no longer effective in melee combat. He is very good at spells, but limited in other utilities.

2: The dedicated healer/inflictor. This is even narrower than Cloistered Cleric: We limit him to either healing spells or inflicting spells. Summons are off the table, as are the overpowered spells. Maybe leave him buffs. He loses tons of spells, so perhaps we'll give him medium armor proficiency so he can survive a bit better. Again, he is good at one thing - healing or inflicting.

3: The almost-paladin. We cut his spell list dramatically. Limit him to some heals, some buffs, maybe a few utility spells. Give him 1/2 BAB instead of 3/4, remove his heavy armor proficiency. The goal is an idealized cleric-paladin hybrid - not as effective in melee as the fighter or rogue, not as effective a spellcaster as the wizard or sorcerer, but capable of contributing in either field. The problem with the cleric as it stands is that it is too capable both as a melee and as a spellcaster. Limit it, without crippling it, in both fields, and it can still function. Consider, as a comparison, the T3 Crusader with Devoted Spirit maneuvers. This should be a goal - a melee combatant with healing/buffing abilities, rather than a melee powerhouse who can also summon archons.

And don't try to blend the three into the same class. Let them be three independent mechanisms.

These are just rough outlines, of course. As I've mentioned, and as others have pointed out, these have been homebrewed and "fixed" ad infinitum, by people with far better playtesting skill than I have.

Is this more constructive?

[tricktroller]

One of the things I am wanting to do with this "Cleric" is combine Paladin, cleric, favored soul, and healer into a single class. All 4 classes are very similar to each other but go about doing things differently. The journeyman cleric is my idea of a "healer." He goes around healing the sick battling evil traveling with armies etc etc. The battle cleric is the typical paladin style, avenger of the church, and the cloistered cleric is exactly what he is, a scholar who wields the power of his gods, but each of them has 9 different paths that can be chosen making a fun character who isn't going to be overpowered.

for instance you don;t get extra spells and DMM ad if you want to DMM while you battle cleric you have severely limited numbers of spells per day. The church relic grows in power as you level making it useful. My plan is to have the Battle cleric, cloistered cleric, and the journeyman cleric be 3 of the 5 options for each level. basically

2nd level

1) Spontaneous Domain Casting (you may cast the spells of one of your god's domains spontaneously)
2) Lay on Hands, Divine Grace
3) ?
4) ?
5) ?

[johnbragg]

Well Red what changes would you make to the cleric class to reduce them?

I am already going to implement the spell list change that was talked about earlier, reducing number of spells reduces versatility by making you choose which spells you get.

You keep attacking my choices but not offering new ones instead to put in place, kindly stop telling me "You are doing this wrong!" and instead tell me "I would do this instead." Otherwise you aren't helping.

I already said this was a very rough starting idea that I literally just thought of, so yeah I haven't really thought all the ramifications through.

I have already thought of a few changes to make that should help move some of the power around and versatility as well as surviveability.

I understand some of these have been "fixed" by others but the idea here is to have one set of redone rules with playgrounders all pitching in to make something fun, balanced, and something we all would want to play.

Each of those things you listed are one person fixing a class in their way.


Keep it short, keep it as simple as possible so your players understand what's going on and why.

Clerics become "Warrior-Priests", using the same idea as paladins. Use the Warrior NPC class as the base (Full BAB, d8 hit points, all weapons and armor, one good save (Fort)) and you add the cleric powers.

Turn/Rebuke Undead , Aura of Good/Evil/Law/Chaos/whatever.
Domain granted powers.
Domain spells, plus bonus spells for Wisdom.

And that's it. Give warrior-priests four domains so they have a little bit of choice in their spells--four per level. EVeryone will take the Healing domain, plus three more that line up with their deity. That gives the Warrior-Priest a signature "In The Name of TBA!" without it being overwhelming.

Tweak from there, but that's where I say to start.

[tricktroller]

Yes Red thank you very much that was much more helpful. :D

[tricktroller]

Like I said guys this is really just trying to redo the PHB into tier 3 classes, I figured I would use some of the other classes as base lines for these classes to be like, i.e., favored soul, paladin, healer for the cleric to be instead of making another class for it,t hey can just choose the class features most like those.

I want to run this for a group of people who will be relatively new to DnD in most respects, we will probably never get past level 12 with these characters but designing from 1-20 isn't that much more work from 1-12.

I am planning to come up with some much more solid ideas and try to balance them on paper before posting them on here, but I am open to suggestions.

Also if anyone wants to write up other classes I would love to see what you can come up with.

I would like to try to stick to the 3x3x3 at first level giving you 27 paths to choose from for each character with a class feature at either every level or every other level.

[Ghost Nappa]

Step 1) If a spell is Save-or-Die, remove it immediately. It's not a fun mechanic to be subjected to, nor is it easy to re-balance.

Step 2) Major Spellcasting classes receive less skill points. This makes it harder to optimize things like Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), and Use Magic Device for metamagic feat requirements (especially when they can just buff themselves to compete anyway). Give Non-magical classes MORE base skill points.

Step 3) Remove the concept of bonus spells.

Step 4) If you want to keep Spell Levels 7+, make them require feats or something to get access to. If you raise the oppurtunity cost, you'll lower the desire to take it.

Step 5) Limit Wizard's Spells/Day. There's only a finite number of pages in a book.

Step 6) Ban Wildshape. Druids are OP.

Step 7) Merge appropriate Skills.

Sneak Attack Specific: Rogues do an extra +1d6 Sneak Attack damage if in Melee. Remove the 30ft range requirement for ranged SA.

Alternative Plan: Play a newer edition where some of these changes are the norm.

[tricktroller]

Thanks for the suggestions Ghost Nappa.

I am not interested in playing a newer edition and neither is the group I would be running for.

[tricktroller]

I've worked on it a bit and want to post the thoughts for the cleric again. I didn't make all the suggested changes yet but I did make changes to most of the stuff I posted

Archetype
1) Battle Cleric - Heavy armor, full BAB, High Fort Save, -1 spell per day per level, all martial weapons
2)Cloistered Cleric - Light armor, 1/2 BAB, High Will Save, increased spell list, Lore
3) Journeyman Cleric - Medium armor, 3/4 BAB, High will and fort saves, Sorcerer spells per day, sorcerer spells known (these are still reduced one per level per day as the original cleric spells list was)

Church Position
1) Knight Militant - Smite Enemy, Turn Undead/Elemental/Etc, Aura of Courage
2) Deacon - Pick 2 domains of Diety, add 1 spell per level from domain list to your list, domain powers, no extra spells
3) Treasurer - Church Relic

Title
1) Torturer - Spontaneously cast Inflict spells, add ranks in heal to inflict spells
2) Balancer - Spontaneously cast inflict or cure spells, add 1/f ranks in heal to inflict spells and cure spells
3) Healer - Spontaneously cast cure spells, add ranks in heal to cure spells

2nd Level
1) Spontaneous domain casting - 1/day per 5 levels spontaneously cast a spell from a domain of your diety.
2) Lay on hands, Divine Grace as per paladin
3) Voice of the church - 1/day per 5 levels add +2 to hit and damage, +2 to a skill check, or cast a cure or inflict spell without provoking an AoO

3rd Level
1) Aspect of the God's - 1/day use a domain power of your Deity for 1 round
2) Divine Health - as per paladin
3) Call to the Divine - 1/day per 3 levels use immediate action to take 1/2 damage an ally would take

4th Level
1) Power of the God's - you may cast 1 1st level domain spell per day in addition to your other spells
2) Implacable - You are immune to the Dazed and stunned conditions.
3) Seek Divinity - 1/day per 5 levels cast cure/inflict with range close instead of touch

This is what I have so far. I was thinking it might be fun to make it to where instead of an even level class feature you could take one of a level lover except for 1st level class features. What do you guys think?

[Gemini476]

Alternative Plan: Play a newer edition where some of these changes are the norm.

...Actually, that reminds me. The Mage in 5e gets two spells known/level, +2 at first level. Also three at-will cantrips, but let's ignore that for now.
This is what the spell slots look like:
Spells per day
{table=head]Level|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|4|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|4|3|2|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|4|3|3|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|4|3|3|1|-|-|-|-|-

8th|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

9th|4|3|3|3|1|-|-|-|-

10th|4|3|3|3|2|-|-|-|-

11th|4|3|3|3|2|1|-|-|-

12th|4|3|3|3|2|1|-|-|-

13th|4|3|3|3|2|1|1|-|-

14th|4|3|3|3|2|1|1|-|-

15th|4|3|3|3|2|1|1|1|-

16th|4|3|3|3|2|1|1|1|-

17th|4|3|3|3|2|1|1|1|1

18th|4|3|3|3|2|1|1|1|1

19th|4|3|3|3|2|1|1|1|1

20th|4|3|3|3|2|1|1|1|1[/table]
While I do not agree with everything Next is trying to do, this does seem like a usable thing.
Also for a spell to scale you need to prepare it in a higher slot, not entirely unlike psionics.

[Kristinn]

If you want to have a nice, balanced Tier 3 game, just ban the PHB classes. Nice and easy. You want to be a wizard? Sorry, to powerful. May I interest you in the Dread Necromancer/Beguiler/Warmage? You want to be a Fighter? Sorry, you would not be able to pull your weight. May I interest you in the Warblade/Duskblade?

As an exception, the Bard is a nice Tier 3 class. Capable of many things, has good buffing and a nice spell list, but doesn't Gate in Solars.

[lsfreak]

Also for a spell to scale you need to prepare it in a higher slot, not entirely unlike psionics.

Two problems with this in 3.5. One is that it's going to be pretty rare that making something scale is going to be worth giving up the higher-level spell, and second, many of the best spells in 3.5 don't get noticeably better with scaling. The low-level BCs aren't as good only lasting three rounds, but that's still going to be long enough to last a good chunk of the fight. The medium-level ones like solid fog don't care at all. Meanwhile, the stuff that's not encounter-ending that you might want to cast (blasty spells, low-level buffs at higher-level play) tend to be the things that suffer most, thus indirectly encouraging the the player to continue using the best spells. Mana point system, or anything else that requires scaling cost, isn't going to work in 3.5 without some serious changes to spells.


Step 1) If a spell is Save-or-Die, remove it immediately. It's not a fun mechanic to be subjected to, nor is it easy to re-balance.
An alternative, or something to apply to some of the save-or-loses as well, is that such spells have their cast time increased to One Round. It gives people a chance to move out of range, interrupt the spell, etc, rather than letting a wizard reshape the battlefield or the enemies to the wizard's liking without any way of stopping it.

[tricktroller]

Is Threadcromancy after 6 months? If it is awesome, if not my apologies.

I have "finished" the Wizard spell list and how I am going to do spells for wizards!


Wizards will choose between single specialization, double specialization, or Generalist

Now With generalist you may pick 4 spells per level effectively giving you access to the entire "universal spell list that all wizards have access to! However, you do not gain any of the spells form the specialist lists.

As a specialist of any version you only receive three new spells per level. In order to take a spell from your specialist list you must first take the specialist school spell on the universal list!

If you are a single Specialist wizard you pick ANY one school to ban. You may not ever use that school of magic in any way shape or form other than having it cast on you by someone else. Things that are banned include your familiar or trying to UMD around it. This BAN is permanent and meant to be meaningful.

However, after you have picked a banned school you may access the two extra spells available to you from your specialist school! Hooray!

Here is a link with the LIST (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNcVFIdnRyZ1UxMWM/edit?usp=sharing) of spells!

Let me know what you guys think.

[Lans]

For cleric you can use the healer list as a base and add in domains and appropriate spells

[tricktroller]

Actually I really like the ideas behind the rebalancing compendium however I have changed the spells some.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=g5oejsbni4uu702h7f7g2gc0b2&topic=1890.0

I removed all save or die spells and I removed miracle, working on paring the list down to 7 per level and 2 per domain.

[tricktroller]

Any thoughts on the wizard's spell list or the mechanics of it?

[CrazyYanmega]

Actually, a fun way to bring spellcasters in line where they belong is quite simple.

Make it so they don't learn spells naturally.

Any time they want to learn a new spell, they have to take the time, money, and experience points to develop it themselves via the Epic Spells rules. Add some fluff about individual spells being keyed to their developer to prevent people from cheesing out and stealing spells.

[Stella]

Any thoughts on the wizard's spell list or the mechanics of it?I like it, quite a bit. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend while we were commuting up to Cold Wars. It went something like this:

Me: The single largest problem with D&D 3.5 is that full casters (Wizards, Clerics, Druids, etc.) are just to powerful compared to all the other classes.
Him: Yeah. But why is that? It seems to be that they simply have so many more options available to them, given the huge array of spells available. Remember when we were playing 1e (it might actually be 0e) and the spell list for a Magic-User was something like a dozen spells per level for a few levels, then 10 spells per level for another few levels, and then 8 spells per level for the top few levels? That gave the MU options, but not a spell for every situation.

And I couldn't help but agree. We eventually decided that there would be a mass mutiny from the players if we tried to implement such a sharply curtailed spell list, but it does have the huge advantage of simplicity when compared to our current system which is basically a list of house rules regarding a huge pile of spells.

I haven't closely examined your list, but it seems to provide the needed balance via limiting the versatility of casters by limiting the number of spells available.

[DR27]

Relevant if you want to convert the Wizard to a spontaneous specialist (you should want to):

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2410.0

Cleric:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4082

[Anlashok]

Alternative Plan: Play a newer edition where some of these changes are the norm.

Next does a lot of stupid things and doesn't really fix the problems (Fighters are still lame as **** for instance). And of course we don't speak of the other edition.

[tricktroller]

The biggest problem with making them not learn spells naturally is that it is just an annoyance. It doesn't solve the problem like my list does. You can't cast every spell wizards know. You can only ever cast spells from the universal list if you are a generalist. No more crazy spell lists of doom. Also there is nothing that will allow you to cast spells form your banned schools. No runestaff, no wand, no clever way of getting around it will work. If it is from that school you cannot use it, ever.

I don't really like that wizard class, I think it gets way too freaking much. Some of the ideas, while interesting, just seem like a way to say, "Wizards are now powered down with this class," while allowing them to keep the versatility at the maximum.

The point of this system is to bring everyone down to tier 3.

and that caster is still Tier 1 I don't care what you say. He still has Gate.

[tricktroller]

Working hard on the Tier 3 cleric spell list. planning to have 10 spells per level for mos levels and then each domain has two spells. so based upon the two domains you pick, you will have 14 spells to pick from at each level. Might reduce that to 8 per level but I like 10. Also not every cleric gets to pick domains.

[tricktroller]

Quick thoughts on Fighter let me know what you guys think.

Fighter Base stats
Full BAB, 4+INT skill points, Bonus feat at every even Level

Archetypes.
Soldier:Proficient with all non exotic armors, shields, simple and martial weapons. D12 HP High fort saves

Hero:Proficients with medium armor, shields, all simple weapons and choice of 5 martial and/or exotic weapons. D10 HP High Fort and Will

Thug:Proficient with light armor, shields, simple weapons, and unarmed strike. d10 HP High Fort and Reflex, +2 skillpoints per level

So this is the base portion of the class, every class will work like this. You pick from three sets of three things at 1st character level. You pick your archetype, then you pick a class feature, and then you pick a class specialization. When multiclasisng you get the archetype and the class feature but never get the second classes specialization.



The base class stuff is
Feat every odd level, No class skills, hide+move silently = stealth, listen+spot = perception, jump+climb = athletics, balance + tumble = acrobatics, open lock+ disable device = engineering, speak language removed.


What do you guys thinks?

[tricktroller]

Ok folks of the playground, I have finished my write up of the Wizard tier 3 class for 1st level abilities.

A few caveats to note;
1. In the Tier 3 system there are NO bonus spells from high stat.
2. All players gain Feats at every odd level.
3. I have not playtested any of this yet, it is all very rough, don't stab my motivation bro.

Wizard 1st level

Archetype
1 Thaumaturgist: 1/2 BAB d4 HP 1.5x Wizard's spell per day table (round up) High Will Saves all simple weapons no armor or shields.

2 Battle-Mage:3/4 BAB d6 HP 1x Wizard's spell per day table, High Will and Ref, all simple weapons, one martial weapon, light armor and shields, no tower shield, may cast in light armor or with a light/heavy shield.

3 Spellsword: Full BAB d8 1/2 Wizard's spell per day table (Round down, minimum 1), High Fort and Will, all simple weapons, 2 Martial or 1 Exotic weapon prof., light armor and shield's no tower shield, may cast in any armor they are proficient in.

Features
1 Generalist: Access to Universal Spell List only, No schools banned, Learn 4 new spells known per level

2 Specialist: Access to Universal Spell List plus access to one Specialist School List, one School banned from Universal Spell List. Gain 3 new spells known per level. A specialist Wizard must select their specialist school spell on the Universal Spell List before selecting a spell off the Specialist School List.

3 Dual Specialist: Access to Universal Spell List plus access to two Specialist School Lists, two Schools banned from Universal Spell List. Gain 3 new spells known per level. A specialist Wizard must select their specialist school spell on the Universal Spell List before selecting a spell off the Specialist School List.

Specialization
1 Metamagic Focus: 1/day at 1st +1 per 6 levels, negate one metamagic cost increase on a single spell. This may not be combined with any other ability that reduces the cost of a metamagic feat, or any item that mimics one such as a rod of metamagic.

2 Crafting Focus: Gain crafting feats at each level they become available, but only feats out of the PHB. This nets 8 bonus feats. 1st Scribe scroll, 3rd brew potion, craft wondrous item, 5th craft wand, craft magic arms and armor, 9th craft rod, 12th craft staff craft ring.

3 Spell Focus: If a spell has a variable dice roll add your intelligence as a bonus. This does not include the dice roll to hit with a touch or ranged touch spell, only for effects like Fireball's d6 of damage dice or the d6 of damage dice on a ray of enfeeblement.

So what do you guys think?

I am hoping for solidly in Tier 3 with the new spell list I posted earlier in the thread, but I will post it again here (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNcVFIdnRyZ1UxMWM/edit)

[tricktroller]

I'm actually working on creating the whole system and putting it into a pdf complete with all the changes I think will be helpful.

Thanks so far to everyone who has posted and I look forward to hearing from all of you as I post more of the system, and the changes I think are necessary to bring everyone to Tier 3.

[ace rooster]

Completely changing the spell lists is one way of fixing spellcasting, but it is removing the best part of 3.5. As is, spellcasting is strictly better than mundane attacks, as well as being far more versitile. The versitility is fine, as long as we nerf casters some other way, or boost low tier classes so that they have some advantage over casters. Combat seems like an easy concession to combat based characters, so nerfing casters in combat is a good start for me. Harder concentration checks and full round casting are my start (as I have said before). It also gives ranged combat a purpose, as being able to force a concentration check from multiple casters in a wide radius is suddenly very useful, even if it doesn't kill the target.

[tricktroller]

Well I already changed the spell list to what Ihave linked. Are there any spells you suggest swapping?

[ace rooster]

Well I already changed the spell list to what Ihave linked. Are there any spells you suggest swapping?
The summon monster line is still access to a huge number of abilities, from flying to blindsense to spellcasting. Polymorph can also make the fighter redundant, as well as being a fly sub. Invisibility without glitterdust means that casters have to deal with invisible opponents themselves, using see invisibility. An invisible summoner with DD is still tier 2, maybe 1. Magic jar is still as silly as ever, and characters are less likely to have tools to deal with it.

You have limited a caster's defensive options, but also limited their methods of defeating said options. It doesn't help mundanes defeat casters, it just makes caster fights a bit rock paper scissors, with the players forced to choose their play at build time.

I like what you are trying to do, but it feels like you are having to throw out most of the 'content' of the game to do it, and it is still not achieving what you want it to, even pared down to bones. This suggests to me that the underlying system of the game itself needs modified to achieve the balance you are looking for, and that the content is not the problem.

[tricktroller]

I guess the thing is that those spells can be changed to reduce their tier as well.

[CrazyYanmega]

I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear: The way I would run it, Spellcasters have to craft their spells PER SPELL. As in each casting has to be crafted individually. This way spellcasters can keep their fun spells, but they have to be VERY careful in how they spend them. They will also be several levels behind their non-spellcaster allies, making the Quadratic Vs. Linear problem much more manageable.

[tricktroller]

That seems unnecessarily difficult. I understand the point is to give them less versatility, but I think that is the wrong direction for my group.

[VoxRationis]

I have an easy fix for wildshape, unless you have seen a real one, you cannot wildshape into it. No summoning critters so you can change into them later, you have to have seen it to change into it, you have to watch how it moves for at least 3 rounds and then you can write it on your list of things you can wildshape into like a spell book of creatures.

I like the idea of Divine metamagic but I think it will need to be reworked. I like that you can DMM a persistent spelled buff but I think it should be harder to do.

All non caster classes will get at least a 2 point per level skill boost to compensate and the class skills list will be removed, anyone can take anything, and certain skills will be grouped instead of being multiples.

Technically, that's not a fix: it's a rule. The PHB says that the druid can only wild shape into creatures from the area they're from. Now, that's not 100 percent the same thing, but I believe the assumption is that these creatures are ones the druid is familiar with due to being able to go out and encounter them.

[tricktroller]

No because currently you can bypass that with a high enough knowledge nature check. This would prevent people from magically knowing about things, and allow me to give them out as rewards for good behavior.

[VoxRationis]

The rules do not say that a Knowledge (nature) check can bypass this restriction, to the best of my knowledge and the SRD. If that is something your players have convinced you, I'm sorry, but that's not a rule.

[tricktroller]

No but you can use a knowledge check to know information about a specific creature right? So couldn't you use that to know about something like fleshraker? It doesn;t state that you have to be viewing one, it just says "specific"

[VoxRationis]

It says you have to be familiar with the creature. I know lots of things about D. melanogaster. However, I have seen them in person once, and would not consider myself "familiar" with it.

[tricktroller]

That little caveat is nice to know!

[Friv]

My instinct for balancing people, were I to want to, would be as follows:

1) Trim the skill list down to about 20-25 skills, so that skill-focused classes are better off.

Clerics: Not sure what the fast-and-dirty approach would be. Probably let them be spontaneous casters, but limit them to casting Domain spells and healing/harm spells plus an extra one or two spells per level, and limit them to the Wizard spells per day listed below.

Druids: Druids get the Bard spells known and per day, with their traditional spell list. It might not be enough, but it's enough for a quick-and-dirty hack down of their abilities.

Wizards: Remove all access to wands and scrolls, restrict them to four schools, remove school specialization, and slow down their spell progression so that they get the following spells per day:
Level 1: 5 cantrips, 3 Level 1 spells
Level 2: 5 cantrips, 4 Level 1 spells
Level 3: 5 cantrips, 4 Level 1 spells, 1 Level 2 spell
Level 4: 5 cantrips, 4 Level 1 spells, 2 Level 2 spells
Level 5: 5 cantrips, 4 Level 1 spells, 3 Level 2 spells
Level 6: 5 cantrips, 4 Level 1 spells, 3 Level 2 spells, 1 Level 3 spell
Level 7: 5 cantrips, 4 Level 1 spells, 3 Level 2 spells, 2 Level 3 spells
Level 8: 5 cantrips, 4 Level 1 spells, 3 Level 2 spells, 3 Level 3 spells
After that: On odd levels, gain one casting of a new spell level. On even levels, gain one extra casting of your highest spell level per day.


Sorcerers: Same as the wizards. They trade not having to prepare spells for not getting free metamagic, and call it a day.

Monks: Play a swordsage.
Fighters: Play a warblade.
Paladins: Play a crusader.
Rogues: Whenever a rogue would gain Sneak Attack damage, they also gain a free skill trick (from Complete Scoundrel).

Really quick and dirty, mind you.

[tricktroller]

Is this tier 3?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355121-Tier-3-system-Ranger&p=17588432#post17588432

[Angelalex242]

I don't know how long this would last, but I had an idea.

You get a Free ECL race equal to your Tier-1.

Wizards are stuck being humans or elves...
But Sorcerers can be Aasimar +1
Bards can be Drow +2
Barbarians can Half Dragon +3
Paladins can be Half Celestial +4
Samurai can have +5 ECL and maybe max stats just for fun.

Don't know how long that sort of balance might last, or what it does at each level, but I thought it might be fun for a while.

[Stella]

Specialization
1 Metamagic Focus: 1/day at 1st +1 per 6 levels, negate one metamagic cost increase on a single spell. This may not be combined with any other ability that reduces the cost of a metamagic feat, or any item that mimics one such as a rod of metamagic.

2 Crafting Focus: Gain crafting feats at each level they become available, but only feats out of the PHB. This nets 8 bonus feats. 1st Scribe scroll, 3rd brew potion, craft wondrous item, 5th craft wand, craft magic arms and armor, 9th craft rod, 12th craft staff craft ring.

3 Spell Focus: If a spell has a variable dice roll add your intelligence as a bonus. This does not include the dice roll to hit with a touch or ranged touch spell, only for effects like Fireball's d6 of damage dice or the d6 of damage dice on a ray of enfeeblement.

So what do you guys think?

I am hoping for solidly in Tier 3 with the new spell list I posted earlier in the thread, but I will post it again here (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNcVFIdnRyZ1UxMWM/edit)
So, you have specialists and then you have specialization. I'd try to select terms which have less of an overlap. We already have the multiple use of the word "level" to deal with. :smallwink:

How does a Wizard select a specialization? Are they limited to one? At what level do they pick one or more specializations?

Eliminating Wizard bonus spells per level for a high Int seems very counter-intuitive to me. Especially after reading your Tier 3 Ranger write-up, which gives Rangers the class ability of spell casting at 1st level but which specifically grants the Ranger 0 1st level spells per day until they reach 3rd level and which details how at 1st and 2nd level the Ranger can cast a number of spells per day equal to the bonus spells a high Wisdom may grant them.

Maybe give the Thaumaturgist bonus spells for Int instead of the 1.5x spells/day multiplier?

[tricktroller]

Haha well this biggest issue is I went from one direction to a totally new direction with the T3 ranger and I am having a hard time picking between the two methods. The listing for the wizard is the 9 options you have at 1st level. You may only ever pick one item off of each of those lists and only at first level. Unfortunately in that original system the listings are backwards haha. They should have been specialization and and features in reversed order XD. Thanks for noticing my goof.

I think that having the base classes act the same will give me the stability I want in the T3 game while having every class conform to the Ranger's combat forms portion will give me the versatility I am looking for.

Each class advances the same for their normal class features but then get a subset of features that help them in other areas.

[aleucard]

Here's an idea for nerfing the dedicated casters (Wizards, Clerics, Druids, etc., not Sorcerers) that doesn't really get much 3.5 screen time but is almost a bog-standard fantasy trope outside.

Casting spells of high enough level to be effective takes time, and lots of it. While few spells will take longer than a couple rounds, the caster needs to come up with a method of GENERATING that extra time. Some spells are naturally quick (or at least, not so absurdly slow to cast), and a caster with decent mental faculties may be able to delay firing on at least one or two spells so they can be cast as a Standard (or even as part of another action in some cases), but these will be the exception, not the rule. Blasting spells and things of comparable level are going to be largely unaffected (most are conceptually simple, and thus take less time to accurately stitch together on the fly the way a Wizard does), but things like Summoning and Battlefield Control would probably eat up a sizable chunk of the fight time. One obvious benefit of this, as an aside; it gives more benefit to the Silent Spell metamagic; since most of the spells you'd want to cast into an ambush are now going to take several rounds to cast, you're an early warning if you can't cast noiselessly. It's much more low-key in general, too, which has other benefits.

[tricktroller]

I think that would be fun, but not really the concept I have in mind. I am generally hoping to keep the same mechanics, but change the spells and spells available to reduce their potency while not overly penalizing the caster. No one wants to sit out of the fight for 11 rounds.

[Komatik]

Set the big boom boom up as a background process ^^
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/jvc/21.jpg

[tricktroller]

What? Did you post in the wrong thread?

[tricktroller]

Tier 3 system - Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355779-Tier-3-system-Fighter&p=17602205#post17602205)

Once I have these all done I will be posting a link list with all of them on their for ease of access.

[aleucard]

I think that would be fun, but not really the concept I have in mind. I am generally hoping to keep the same mechanics, but change the spells and spells available to reduce their potency while not overly penalizing the caster. No one wants to sit out of the fight for 11 rounds.

One good idea would be to give all/most of the Save-or-Die/Suck type spells gradual progression, comparable to HP but with different stats. This would probably need more math, but it would at least help that issue. BFC spells are almost universally more potent and in more situations than almost any other spell, but due to how the vast majority work, this wouldn't be as helpful. I really can't think of too many ways to nerf these aside from either using my increased-casting-time idea or switching to a heavily augmented Spell Point system and have spells assigned individual costs (not all equal-level spells are created equal, after all), maybe have some of the more annoying spells assigned odd skill/feat requirements, or PrC restricted.

[Stella]

Here's an idea for nerfing the dedicated casters (Wizards, Clerics, Druids, etc., not Sorcerers) that doesn't really get much 3.5 screen time but is almost a bog-standard fantasy trope outside.

Casting spells of high enough level to be effective takes time, and lots of it.
Like most generalizations, this one is wrong in so many cases that it just shouldn 't be made at all. REH may have had his wizards take a month to cast a spell, but there are a great number of fantasy authors who don't impose long "casting times" on their "spells."

Take Modesitt, for example. He has the Recluse series, the Spellsong series, and the Imager series. All with a different magic system, none of which use long casting times. And that's just one author and three different settings with three different magic systems.

Also, when a character in a novel takes a long time to cast a spell, she can't complain to the DM, or even the author. As others have pointed out, forcing the casters options in combat into being "I keep casting the spell I started casting a while ago" isn't much like fun and it will draw player complaints.

[aleucard]

Also, when a character in a novel takes a long time to cast a spell, she can't complain to the DM, or even the author. As others have pointed out, forcing the casters options in combat into being "I keep casting the spell I started casting a while ago" isn't much like fun and it will draw player complaints.

You have a better idea to bring the dedicated caster's power down to something more reasonable? The only other ideas I keep hearing involve the kind of retooling that entails the difference between 3.5 and Pathfinder, only more focused. That takes a LOT of man-hours to do to any degree of effectiveness, and for no monetary benefit to boot. There's only so much that people are willing to do for the fun of it and without reward.

[Captnq]

Actually, I've been giving this some thought lately. I know EXACTLY how to bring the T1 and T2 more in line with everyone else.

There are 3345 official WotC spells.

Get rid of about half of them. The Upper half. The awesome spells that rock my self-centered little world. If you only allow the average and lousy spells, All T1 and T2 classes become downgraded without needing to change any class.

Of course... Individually evaluating 3345 spells will take a while, and I'm only 40% done, but when I'm finished I feel that my rating system will allow for an instant downgrade of T1 and T2 classes. And it will be color coded for your ease of use.

[aleucard]

Actually, I've been giving this some thought lately. I know EXACTLY how to bring the T1 and T2 more in line with everyone else.

There are 3345 official WotC spells.

Get rid of about half of them. The Upper half. The awesome spells that rock my self-centered little world. If you only allow the average and lousy spells, All T1 and T2 classes become downgraded without needing to change any class.

Of course... Individually evaluating 3345 spells will take a while, and I'm only 40% done, but when I'm finished I feel that my rating system will allow for an instant downgrade of T1 and T2 classes. And it will be color coded for your ease of use.

I think a lot of people would be interested in that list. I'm interested in how you retain certain archetypes without making them as gimped by comparison as blasting is now.

[Stella]

You have a better idea to bring the dedicated caster's power down to something more reasonable?Yes, I do. The reason Tier 1 classes are Tier 1 classes is that they have an enormous amount of flexibility. If the opponent is vulnerable to a specific attack, the Tier 1 classes can attack that vulnerability. They have a spell which involves a Will save, or a Fort save, or a Reflex save, or no save at all, depending on the vulnerabilities of the opponent, that opponent is toast. If the party challenge involves a specific skill, the Tier 1 caster is more likely to be able to overcome that skill challenge with a spell than the skill focused character. Etc., etc. This is the entire reason Tier 1 casters are Tier 1 casters: Because they can meet or exceed the class abilities of several other classes.

Bringing the dedicated caster's power down to something more reasonable involves reducing the dedicated caster's options. Which means reducing the number of spells they have to select from.

Which tricktroller did when he published a Wizard spell list of 8 generalist spells and 16 specialist spells per spell level. And while tricktroller did the work to publish his "better idea", plenty of people, myself included, had long ago recognized that the Tier 1 classes needed to have their options reduced in order to balance the classes. Note that forcing a longer casting time on those broad options isn't a valid reduction of the Tier 1 classes. Nor is making them pay to learn new spells. Nor any one of a number of suggested options which were intended to but which don't really limit the Tier 1 casters in play. Limiting their options, that is the only real solution, because that is the problem which needs to be solved.

You seem angry because I disagree with you that a system which requires caster to sit out a lot of rounds before bringing major pain against their enemies is a better system that one which allows a caster to act in each round with a balanced effect in each round measured against the martial classes. Don't be, that is not productive.

[tricktroller]

Do you guys like the reduced wizard and cleric spell lists?

T3 Wizard Spells (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNcVFIdnRyZ1UxMWM/edit)
T3 Cleric Spells (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNZGNNSWJsRzdKYWM/edit)

Also here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355789-Tier-3-System-Condensed) is my homebrew forum posting for the T3 system

The idea is to allow some cool stuff like polymorph, but only with monsters from the original monster manual, righteous might for war clerics etc, but to only allow those options for specific characters.

[Komatik]

What? Did you post in the wrong thread?

No. Just wanted to give a concrete example of the idea: Making big amazing high level brokenations take a long time to cast is a pretty great idea, makes them disruptable and such while keeping casters super dangerous. But sitting in place casting a spell is not very fun.

Solution: Turn the long casting time into a background process. Standard action to initiate or whatever, and then you have to channel for X rounds. The channel takes up no actions or a swift action or something, but limits you to casting lower-impact spells. But you can still contribute actively while the time bomb is ticking and position yourself to make the best use out of the bomb.

[tricktroller]

Oh gotcha. I can see that working with a casting time of 2-3 rounds tops anything beyond that would be a bit much. Maybe make a feat that reduces that time by a round as well.

[jiriku]

The only other ideas I keep hearing involve the kind of retooling that entails the difference between 3.5 and Pathfinder, only more focused. That takes a LOT of man-hours to do to any degree of effectiveness, and for no monetary benefit to boot. There's only so much that people are willing to do for the fun of it and without reward.

Some people have done exactly that (myself included). You could always just use the retoolings published here on the playground by people who have devoted the time and offered their work for free use by the community.

[tricktroller]

In all honesty, I do not mind the hours of work put into this. I enjoy it and the collaborative effort of the forums to make something that most everyone can agree is better.

My honest hope is that this system will be both balanced and fun. A lot of people have told me "4th edition is perfectly balanced." TO which I reply, "yes but it really is just an MMO in tabletop format."

I never cared for 4th, but I did like some of the things that they espoused with that edition.

[tricktroller]

Ok so how does everyone feel about this for spellcasting time;

Spells take Spell level divided by 3 rounds (rounded down) to cast. So
1st-5th level spells 1 round
6th-8th level spells 2 rounds
9th level spells 3 rounds.

This adds in the necessary slowing and disruption for higher level effects but doesn't do so in a drastic way and allows characters to cast 1st through 5th level spells in one standard action.

The rounds after the first standard action would require a swift action to maintain concentration and you can only maintain one spell at a time.

This is just a thought, let me know what you guys think!

[VoxRationis]

I think a lot of people would be interested in that list. I'm interested in how you retain certain archetypes without making them as gimped by comparison as blasting is now.

"By comparison" is the operative phrase here. When the occasional thread comes up asking why this forum shows nothing but disdain for blasting, the general response is that "it's fine, but there are better ways of eliminating enemies." Reducing the effectiveness of those other ways to a level of effectiveness on par with, say, blasting does not stop them from being "fine." It just means they are no longer exceptional. If you adjust everything, they cannot be lessened in comparison to anything else.

[master4sword]

Ok so how does everyone feel about this for spellcasting time;

Spells take Spell level divided by 3 rounds (rounded down) to cast. So
1st-5th level spells 1 round
6th-8th level spells 2 rounds
9th level spells 3 rounds.

This adds in the necessary slowing and disruption for higher level effects but doesn't do so in a drastic way and allows characters to cast 1st through 5th level spells in one standard action.

The rounds after the first standard action would require a swift action to maintain concentration and you can only maintain one spell at a time.

This is just a thought, let me know what you guys think!

Running with this idea, perhaps free action to maintain concentration so you can "chain" spells? Greater risk, as a single failed Concentration check could cost several spells, but could be more interesting for the caster than "I start casting Disintegrate, then shoot with my crossbow until the spell finishes".

[ekarney]

Tell everything below tier 2 that multiclassing your next 19 HD with wizard gives no penalty.