Two Rebuilt Clerics--still Tier 1?

[johnbragg]

Clerics are Tier 1 largely because they are both first-class spellcasters and first-class melee fighters.

So what if we made clerics choose between first-class spellcasting and first-class meleeing?

Clerics are either Warrior-Clerics or Adept-Clerics. Either a fighter-type with some divine spellcasting added, or a caster-type with divine spells.

If you want the (historical) Templar/Crusader/fighting bishop archetype, basically the paladin with better spellcasting, take the Warrior-Cleric. Based on the NPC WArrior chassis, d8 hit die, full BAB, one good save (Fort). You also get your domain ability, and your domain spells. ONLY your domain spells, and I guess Wisdom bonus spells. So a 9th level warrior-priest of Pelor has 1 spell each from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th level, chosen from the domain spells of Pelor's domains. So once in a while, he can layeth the holy smack down, but he has to pick his spots. (Maybe the "pick 2 domains" mechanic is too restrictive--3? 4?)

Or if you want the full spellcasting power of the cleric, put down the plate mail and morningstar and accept that you're an Adept-Cleric. Using the DMG/SRG Adept class as a template, d6 hit die, no armor, simple weapons, 1/2 BAB. And cast spells.

Option A is that the Adept-Cleric uses the regular 3E Cleric spell progression.
OPtion B is that the Adept-Cleric uses the Adept spell progression, plus the spells the Warrior-Priest gets.

(I know there are other, "better" options in the splatbooks, but I'd like to come up with patches that make Core better. I think that there's a way to have say a five-page packet of houserules that fixes most of the balance issues in Core.)

[Fax Celestis]

The warrior cleric option is probably tier 3. The caster cleric is still tier 1. The problem isn't his proficiencies or his BAB, it's his expansive and infinitely variable spell list.

There's already a tier 2 cleric: it's called the favored soul. If you want more than that, you'll need to find a way to make the cleric's spell selection not so ridiculously expansive.

[JaronK]

Option B already exists, it's called the Cloistered Cleric from UA. It's often stronger than a regular Cleric.

JaronK

[johnbragg]

The warrior cleric option is probably tier 3. The caster cleric is still tier 1. The problem isn't his proficiencies or his BAB, it's his expansive and infinitely variable spell list.

There's already a tier 2 cleric: it's called the favored soul. If you want more than that, you'll need to find a way to make the cleric's spell selection not so ridiculously expansive.

So the Warrior-Cleric is a go, then. :smallcool:

Does the Cleric-Adept work with Option B, restricting them to the adept spell list, plus the Warrior-Cleric's domain spells? I figure people playing Cleric-Adepts are going to tend away from combat characters anyway, so the Adept spell list fits them pretty well.


Originally Posted by JaronK View Post
Option B already exists, it's called the Cloistered Cleric from UA. It's often stronger than a regular Cleric.

JaronK
What if the Adept-Cleric is limited to the Adept spell list, plus his/her domain spells? That takes away most of the versatility that makes the Cleric such a monster. While still giving the character something as a token of their deity's favor.

I didn't mean to rebuilt the Cloistered Cleric, which I looked at and said "No."

[Namfuak]

So the Warrior-Cleric is a go, then. :smallcool:

Does the Cleric-Adept work with Option B, restricting them to the adept spell list, plus the Warrior-Cleric's domain spells? I figure people playing Cleric-Adepts are going to tend away from combat characters anyway, so the Adept spell list fits them pretty well.

Maybe in an E6 game, but if you want all clerics to be adepts why not just have people play adepts?

[johnbragg]

Maybe in an E6 game, but if you want all clerics to be adepts why not just have people play adepts?

Don't forget the domain spells, which the Adept-Cleric gets at the same level as a PHB-Cleric. A 13th level Adept casting Chain Lightning (Air Domain) or Animate Objects(Chaos) or HArm (Destruction) or Stoneskin (Earth) or Fire Seeds (Fire) isn't "just an adept."

[Grod_The_Giant]

Adept + Domains is probably still T4-- they just get too few spells, and too slow a progression to be anything else.

[Urpriest]

Adept + Domains is probably still T4-- they just get too few spells, and too slow a progression to be anything else.

Adepts already can get domains anyway, as of Eberron.

[johnbragg]

Adepts already can get domains anyway, as of Eberron.

It's not just domain spells. It's the regular domain spells a cleric would get, on top of the usual Adept spell progression and spell selection.

Divine Spells: You can cast 1 Domain spell per day, plus bonus spells for Wisdom, for every spell level you can cast. At 1st level you can cast 1st level spells, and you gain a new spell level every two levels. You have access to Healing and three other domains appropriate to your deity.

So a 10th level Cleric Adept is casting 3+1/2+1/1+1/0+1/0+1.
A 20th level Cleric-Adept is casting 3+1/3+1/3+1/3+1/2+1/0+1/0+1/0+1/0+1, with four choices for each of the domain spells. If the Adept was already Tier 4, access to a handful of high-level spells at high levels has to bump them up.

[johnbragg]

For the sake of completeness, and for those who like tables, I'm putting in spell progression tables for the Pseudocleric-Adept, and I suppose for the Warrior-Pseudocleric.

If people are seeing the Warrior-Pseudocleric as Tier 3, and the Adept-Pseudocleric as Tier 4, then I think I'm done. Old school players get a class that looks like an old-school cleric or even and old school paladin, and they're not light-years beyond what the fighters and rogues and barbarians in the party can do.

The arcane casters and the druid are harder nuts to crack.

Pseudocleric-Adept Spells Per Day:

Level 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 1 + 1 — — — —
2nd 1 + 1 — — — —
3rd 2 + 1 0 + 1 — — —
4th 2 + 1 0 + 1 — — —
5th 2 + 1 1 + 1 0 + 1 — —
6th 2 + 1 1 + 1 0 + 1 — —
7th 3 + 1 2 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 —
8th 3 + 1 2 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 —
9th 3 + 1 2 + 1 1 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
10th 3 + 1 2 + 1 1 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
11th 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
12th 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
13th 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 1 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
14th 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 1 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
15th 3 + 1 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
16th 3 + 1 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
17th 3 + 1 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 1 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
18th 3 + 1 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 1 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
19th 3 + 1 3 + 1 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
20th 3 + 1 3 + 1 3 + 1 3 + 1 2 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1

And the much more boring Warrior-Pseudocleric spells per day.

1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6tth 7th 8th 9th
1st 0 + 1 — — — —
2nd 0 + 1 — — — —
3rd 0 + 1 0 + 1 — — —
4th 0 + 1 0 + 1 — — —
5th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 — —
6th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 — —
7th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 —
8th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 —
9th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
10th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
11th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
12th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
13th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
14th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
15th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
16th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
17th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
18th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
19th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1
20th 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1 0 + 1