Rope Trick question.

[killem2]

How do you get things like a Tiger and a mule with a cart in there?

Or can you?

[Lord Vukodlak]

How do you get things like a Tiger and a mule with a cart in there?

Or can you?

A fly spell could work, you could also attach a harness to the rope and pull them inside. If the entrance is only 5ft off the ground a tiger could probably jump up and climb in.

[Gemini476]

A fly spell could work, you could also attach a harness to the rope and pull them inside. If the entrance is only 5ft off the ground a tiger could probably jump up and climb in.

"Probably". Yeeaaah (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm0NrEBDbeE).

[Psyren]

You could always use the Psionic version, Psychoportive Shelter, which doesn't involve a rope at all.

[Waker]

Obviously the answer is to incorporate the rope into a system of pulleys and levers. That's the reason Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) exists.

[killem2]

Wait a sec. I just looked this over.

Couldn't I just tie one end of the rope around the tiger/mule/cart and the strong people at the top just pull it up? (I don't have a harness for them)

It holds 16,000 lbs. :smallsigh:

[TuggyNE]

Wait a sec. I just looked this over.

Couldn't I just tie one end of the rope around the tiger/mule/cart and the strong people at the top just pull it up? (I don't have a harness for them)

It holds 16,000 lbs. :smallsigh:

Sure, although tying a rope around a tiger may be more excitement than you signed up for, not to mention the challenge of lifting 400-900 lbs at a time with nothing but one rope to hold to.

[killem2]

lol true, it is domesticated though. However, we have a half giant with us, with a strength of 25

[Gemini476]

lol true, it is domesticated though. However, we have a half giant with us, with a strength of 25

...Is he Large? 'Cause then his maximum carrying capacity is 1,600lbs. He can lift 3,200lbs if he doesn't mind having to stagger around everywhere at a speed of 5ft as a full-round action.

Depending on how high up the hole is it might work to just stuff them in there, since the Half-Giant can lift 1,600lbs above his head. Which, for a large creature, is probably roundabout ten feet. Mules tend to weigh less than that, so then it's just a question of putting in the wagon.

The Tiger can jump. Tigers can always jump. 'Cause the wonderful thing about tigers...

[killem2]

...Is he Large? 'Cause then his maximum carrying capacity is 1,600lbs. He can lift 3,200lbs if he doesn't mind having to stagger around everywhere at a speed of 5ft as a full-round action.

Depending on how high up the hole is it might work to just stuff them in there, since the Half-Giant can lift 1,600lbs above his head. Which, for a large creature, is probably roundabout ten feet. Mules tend to weigh less than that, so then it's just a question of putting in the wagon.

The Tiger can jump. Tigers can always jump. 'Cause the wonderful thing about tigers...

Not by default, but he is a psychic warrior so he become large. That would solve that problem. I would like to create the rope trick as high off the ground as needed.

[Lord Vukodlak]

...Is he Large? 'Cause then his maximum carrying capacity is 1,600lbs. He can lift 3,200lbs if he doesn't mind having to stagger around everywhere at a speed of 5ft as a full-round action.

Depending on how high up the hole is it might work to just stuff them in there, since the Half-Giant can lift 1,600lbs above his head. Which, for a large creature, is probably roundabout ten feet. Mules tend to weigh less than that, so then it's just a question of putting in the wagon.

The Tiger can jump. Tigers can always jump. 'Cause the wonderful thing about tigers...

Tigers weight 400-600lbs he's fine lifting a Tiger over his head at 25 strength.

[killem2]

I know it probably won't matter much but it does have full plate armor.

Question, could the psion with call item "call" a harness?

[Maginomicon]

Why not just use a ramp? Or a pit just deep enough for ground-level to level to the hole? Once the creature's level with the entrance, attach the rope by whatever means you like to the creature and pull to guide it inside.

[John Longarrow]

You could always toss down your portable hole, have everyone pile in, cast Rope Trick so it is level with the ground, climb in, then pull the hole in behind you.

[Nettlekid]

I've ruled in my games that if you tie the rope around something before casting Rope Trick, then as the rope rises up into the extradimensional space, it carries up the thing tied within it. Not exactly the spell as described, but makes it handy. See if your DM would allow it.

[killem2]

Problem is, we are in lots of places that have natural stone. Can't dig it, if you dig it. :smallbiggrin::smallsigh: :P

As far as a ramp, I suppose it can be used if the tools are available.

As far as the portable hole, no one has one yet. I plan on getting one when I have the money.

[Psyren]

I know it probably won't matter much but it does have full plate armor.

Question, could the psion with call item "call" a harness?

Again, if you have a psion, why go through all these engineering logistics and other craziness when he can just manifest Psychoportive Shelter? :smalltongue:


You could always toss down your portable hole, have everyone pile in, cast Rope Trick so it is level with the ground, climb in, then pull the hole in behind you.

Pulling a portable hole into a Rope Trick is just asking the DM to mess with you though.

[killem2]

Pulling a portable hole into a Rope Trick is just asking the DM to mess with you though. Again, if you have a psion, why go through all these engineering logistics and other craziness when he can just manifest Psychoportive Shelter? :smalltongue:



/shrug

She never took it, and this is my new character coming into the party who loves transmutation lol. So I'm going to be the helper.

[Rubik]

Pulling a portable hole into a Rope Trick is just asking the DM to mess with you though.Only if he's willing to screw players just because, since there's literally nothing in the rules saying that bad things happen.

Also, Transdimensional Spell'd Dimension Door?

[Spuddles]

Block and tackle (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Block_and_tackle_(PSF).png), right there in the equipment section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#adventuringGear).

5gp.


literally

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm)

Did you know that literally literally does not mean literally? (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally)

[Rubik]

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm)

Did you know that literally literally does not mean literally? (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally)Note that it doesn't even suggest anything that actually happens. It just gives a vague thing, but doesn't actually say anything concrete at all, except mixing portable holes and bags of holding, which renders that statement true, but only for those two items.

Does a HHHaversack count for that purpose?

[Spuddles]

Note that it doesn't even suggest anything that actually happens. It just gives a vague thing, but doesn't actually say anything concrete at all, except mixing portable holes and bags of holding, which renders that statement true, but only for those two items.

Does a HHHaversack count for that purpose?

Well, the text has some leftover 3.0/older edition text that suggests it is not without danger one mixes the other. Though I believe a Rope Trick is an extra-dimensional space and bag of holding is non-dimensional, so technically there is no interaction. If non-dimensional & extra-dimensional are mutually exclusive classifications, that is. Non-dimensionality could be a subset of extra-dimensionality.

[Psyren]

Yeah it's very vague and unspecified and blah blah. But we're talking about an actual game here, not TO, so dangling shiny objects in front of the DM unnecessarily isn't wise.

[Rubik]

Yeah it's very vague and unspecified and blah blah. But we're talking about an actual game here, not TO, so dangling shiny objects in front of the DM unnecessarily isn't wise.If your DM wants to ruin a game by throwing everyone's characters away for no reason, you probably shouldn't be playing under him anyway.

[Psyren]

If your DM wants to ruin a game by throwing everyone's characters away for no reason, you probably shouldn't be playing under him anyway.

"Throw characters away" isn't the only possible outcome though. You could end up heading out for an unscheduled side-trip on the astral plane for instance. Or simply lose your portable hole. It's not binary.

[Rubik]

"Throw characters away" isn't the only possible outcome though. You could end up heading out for an unscheduled side-trip on the astral plane for instance. Or simply lose your portable hole. It's not binary.The Astral is fairly benign, and you can always use a shopping trip in a nearby planar metropolis, such as Sigil.

And if you "lose" your portable hole, that means everything in it is gone -- such as your party. Just make sure everyone is in it at the time, so the DM will have to choose to be a complete jerk to everyone in order to take it away from you.

[Psyren]

The Astral is fairly benign

The Astral encounters table ranges from CR 8-14, whereas rope trick is a 2nd-level spell, so I'm not sure what leads you to believe that. But even if he scales it down to something manageable, that just means he has free rein to come up with something challenging.


and you can always use a shopping trip in a nearby planar metropolis, such as Sigil.

The AP is infinite in size, so Sigil being "nearby" is unlikely.



And if you "lose" your portable hole, that means everything in it is gone

Not necessarily, it could turn inside out before vanishing.

The point is that the DM can come up with anything "hazardous" and indeed may feel like he has to in order to justify that line. Better not to tempt fate at all.

[Spuddles]

Yeah, adventuring is hazardous. The DM could throw a cthulhu at you. Better to have your characters sit in town and roll profession checks. :smallsigh:

[Psyren]

Yeah, adventuring is hazardous. The DM could throw a cthulhu at you. Better to have your characters sit in town and roll profession checks. :smallsigh:

There's a line between "lethal" and "dull." The DM's job - some would say his only job - is to find that line.

[Rubik]

The Astral encounters table ranges from CR 8-14, whereas rope trick is a 2nd-level spell, so I'm not sure what leads you to believe that. But even if he scales it down to something manageable, that just means he has free rein to come up with something challenging.It's also largely nothing but huge amounts of empty space. Encountering anything would be unlikely for quite awhile.


The AP is infinite in size, so Sigil being "nearby" is unlikely.It's fairly close if you have a character with a high Int score around taking 10 on the traveling checks.


Not necessarily, it could turn inside out before vanishing.

The point is that the DM can come up with anything "hazardous" and indeed may feel like he has to in order to justify that line. Better not to tempt fate at all.And again, if he chooses to be a jerk about it, you're probably better off not playing with him.

[Psyren]

And again, if he chooses to be a jerk about it, you're probably better off not playing with him.

His job is to find ways to challenge you, and in most cases to do so in ways that are believable. If the game says "this should be dangerous" and then he makes it dangerous, you can certainly storm out if you choose, but it seems a silly thing to throw a tantrum over.

You seem to be leaping to TPK as the only possible outcome, which lacks creativity.

[Rubik]

His job is to find ways to challenge you, and in most cases to do so in ways that are believable. If the game says "this should be dangerous" and then he makes it dangerous, you can certainly storm out if you choose, but it seems a silly thing to throw a tantrum over.

You seem to be leaping to TPK as the only possible outcome, which lacks creativity.And you're talking about it as though the DM should throw a low level group into a situation they can't immediately get out of and then throw a bunch of high level enemies at them because they had the audacity to let him.

If he's going to challenge them appropriately anyway, what difference is there whether they're on the Material Plane or on the Astral?

[Psyren]

If he's going to challenge them appropriately anyway, what difference is there whether they're on the Material Plane or on the Astral?

1) That was just one example of what could happen if you put a PH inside a RT.
2) The point is that there's no reason to tempt fate unnecessarily by invoking vague clauses.

[Rubik]

1) That was just one example of what could happen if you put a PH inside a RT.
2) The point is that there's no reason to tempt fate unnecessarily by invoking vague clauses.Just use a five foot long piece of rope and drive the wagon in, with the tiger in the back and the donkey pulling it. Just make sure the rope is horizontal, or tied to something in the middle so it doesn't stretch very far.

[Sian]

Punishing the players for being idiots (blatantly ignoring the flashing warning signs and klaxons count) is NOT bad ruling IMO ... it should be plausible that they can get out alive (one way or another) i'd feel perfectly allowed to ramp up the deathliness of the encounters for some time.

Just as regular TPK's are boring (unless you're playing Paranoia), being able to throw dynamite into the campfire without anything dangerous happening, and player death being practially impossible, sans active death wishes, is just as boring in my book. the goal should be to find a happy medium between those and then lean one way or the other depending on how (il)logical and smart/idiotic the players act ... mixing Rope Trick and Portable hole, and claiming it being okay by strict RAW due to it not explicitly spelling out that it shouldn't go boom, is a gold-bordered invitation for the gamemaster to throw the players into harsher waters

[skyth]

There is a statement from the devlopers about rope trick and extra-dimensional spaces saying that they don't interact. There is no explosion/forced trip to the Astral plane/etc.

If memory serves, you can't access the extra-dimensional space while in the rope trick though.

Here's the quote I was looking for. (From the official 3rd edition FAQ):



Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes, bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like.

[Enguebert]

About Rope Trick, what DC should you put for enemy searching for the PCs

- if they know that the PCs are in the area
- if they are just patrolling and walk near the rope trick area

Also, wich feat/magical item/spell could help to locate the PCs ?

[Sian]

unless the area is silenced, a simple Listen DC should make people aware that there's something off unless people within the rope trick explicitly is trying to stay silent (in which case, the way I'm reading it, its a opposed Move Silently/Stealth vs Listen/Preception check... to find it without noice from it would take a DC 40 Spot check (immovable invisible mediumsized opject) through. True sight or other ways to see invisible should make it stupidly easy to find through

[killem2]

Thanks for the replies, and no my DM is not out to kill us lol. I'm just preparing my new wizard is all hehe.

[Chronos]

That clause in Rope Trick is a particularly big problem because different people are almost guaranteed to read it in different ways. If you have a new player, who started playing with 3.x, he's going to see that, look around for rules on just what the danger is, not find any, and assume that it's safe. On the other hand, if you have an old-timer DM who started with first or second edition, he's going to see that, assume that the old rules are still in force, and toss the party into the Astral. The DM won't think he's being unfair: He'll just think that the players were monumentally stupid, because everyone knows that it's disastrous to bring a bag of holding into a rope trick (see, it even says it in the spell). But of course, the players will think it's unfair. Setting up situations where the DM can be accidentally unfair is really bad game design.

[skyth]

Of course, the player could bring up the FAQ answer saying that bags/holes don't cause issues with a rope trick.

Granted, DM's can always house-rule anything :)

[Psyren]

Granted, DM's can always house-rule anything :)

In this case they have to, because there's no RAW saying what happens. So anything they do (even nothing) is a house ruling.

[skyth]

In this case they have to, because there's no RAW saying what happens. So anything they do (even nothing) is a house ruling.

Actually, there is RAW...The official FAQ from wizards about the interaction. (What I posted above)

[nedz]

DM (to Wizard player) "Give me a spellcraft roll"
Wizard player: *rolls* (Note: this is unlikely to be a low result)
DM: "You recall that taking a bag of holding into a Rope Trick space may be hazardous"
Wizard player: *looks up spell* goes ahead anyway
DM: *rolls a dice"

Nothing need ever happen, but how many times will the players risk this ?

[Psyren]

Actually, there is RAW...The official FAQ from wizards about the interaction. (What I posted above)

FAQ isn't actually RAW in 3.5, sadly. At best it's a strong suggestion.

[skyth]

FAQ isn't actually RAW in 3.5, sadly. At best it's a strong suggestion.

How could the official FAQ not be RAW?

[Chronos]

Mostly because it frequently contradicts what's actually written in the books, and sometimes contradicts even itself.

[skyth]

That sounds like a feature, not an issue :) FAQs are an opportunity to clarify or change things that were in the original document.

[Emperor Tippy]

Rope Trick says "Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one. "

Portable Hole says "Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space."

Even if you go with it actually causing something to occur when you mix extradimensional spaces with Rope Trick's (which isn't RAW supported), that still doesn't apply to Portable Holes because Portable Holes are not extradimensional spaces, they are nondimensional spaces. Those are different things in the rules.

[Psyren]

That sounds like a feature, not an issue :) FAQs are an opportunity to clarify or change things that were in the original document.

They are, but it only works if the whole design team is in on the ruling. PF tries to do this (very poorly in the beginning, but at least they're getting better) but WotC in many instances don't seem to care.

For instance, this Rules of the Game article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a) states that antimagic fields block line of effect. But Rules Compendium pg. 11 says that they don't. RC happens to be RAW, whereas the article was just Skip Williams' (misinformed) opinion. And he repeats this bad ruling in several other places, such as here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040727a) and here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040413a) There are numerous examples like this in 3.5's run. And it's not just FAQ - Custserv is prone to give wildly divergent and incorrect rulings as well.

[Emperor Tippy]

And it's not just FAQ - Custserv is prone to give wildly divergent and incorrect rulings as well.

I actually tested that once. E-mailed WotC Customer Service the same question 20 times over a 5 day period with half of the e-mails being copy and pasted and the other half being the same question only written or phrased differently.

I received 16 separate response to the question and while seven of them had the actually RAW correct answer, only one of them actually provided the correct answer for the actual RAW reason that it was correct. Four of the wrong responses were functionally identical.

Custserv was a total farce.

[skyth]

If it's published in the official FAQ, it becomes RAW unless contradicted by a newer source. That you don't agree with a change is irrelevant to whether it is RAW or not.

[Emperor Tippy]

If it's published in the official FAQ, it becomes RAW unless contradicted by a newer source. That you don't agree with a change is irrelevant to whether it is RAW or not.

Um no its not.

The official sourcing policy for D&D 3.5 is the PHB -> the DMG -> the MM -> the RC -> everything else.

The FAQ is not the rules as written and has no more applicability to any rules discussion than the file on my hard drive named "House Rules".

[skyth]

Do you have a source of that 'official' policy? Every rules system I've seen, FAQs override the rule books.

[Psyren]

Do you have a source of that 'official' policy? Every rules system I've seen, FAQs override the rule books.

It's at the beginning of every errata file. https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

[skyth]

Reading the disclaimer on the errata documents, it doesn't say what Tippy said it said :) All it says is that primary source is more valid than a secondary source. In other words, a detailed description is more valid than a truncated description. I'd say the FAQ falls in that description, since the FAQ IS official and what is in the FAQ is a longer, more specifically detailed description.

It also mentions primary sources for things, and none of the books are listed as the primary source for spells.

So I don't see how, in the case of Rope Trick and Bags of holding that the FAQ isn't RAW. Especially since it doesn't contradict anything in the PHB description of the spell. (The spell says that it 'might' be dangerous, besides the fact that bags are non-dimensional as opposed to extra-dimensional if memory serves).

[Lord Vukodlak]

Portable Hole says "Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space."

Even if you go with it actually causing something to occur when you mix extradimensional spaces with Rope Trick's (which isn't RAW supported), that still doesn't apply to Portable Holes because Portable Holes are not extradimensional spaces, they are nondimensional spaces. Those are different things in the rules.


It also says "When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being." So apparently no they aren't different things because a portable hole is described as being both.

[Psyren]

The two terms are interchangeable IME.

[skyth]

I could see it either way :) I don't think there's a consistant definition of either.