Optimization Challenge: Sense Motive

[AMFV]

Howdy, I was recently rereading the epic skill rules and I've noticed that with a high enough Sense Motive (DC 100) you can read surface thoughts. The challenge is to obtain a consistent check of 100 pre-epic, the sooner the better.

I've already gotten most of the easy options. Exemplar for the take 10, and the +4. The skill bonus feats for +5 (Skill Focus and Negotiator). The crazy +30 competency item. +2 circumstance for the masterwork tools (some kind of book about facial ticks, or a handy pair of eyeglasses). We can assume an 18 wisdom and which could be increased significantly later so we could probably have at least a +8 from the stat bonus, possibly higher. So with max ranks if we are assuming level 20 that leaves us needing 18 more points, I'm sure that there are a few things I'm missing, I don't have any morale bonuses as of yet, and there are probably some more untyped for example the Ardent Dillente one.

In any case, any help would be appreciated, the earlier we can manage this the better.

[Red Fel]

It was my understanding that using epic skill checks required epic levels (i.e. 20+)... was I mistaken?

[AMFV]

It was my understanding that using epic skill checks required epic levels (i.e. 20+)... was I mistaken?

Nope or at least it's not referenced anywhere, that rule is certainly true for epic feats but not skill checks. Hence the Arseploder build ridiculousness. But so far as I can tell there is no requirement outside of the check itself, and I just reread the section in the SRD, there is nothing preventing a pre-epic character from doing those things if they can make the check.

[Gemini476]

It was my understanding that using epic skill checks required epic levels (i.e. 20+)... was I mistaken?

Nope, epic skill checks are just absurdly high. They probably didn't expect people to be able to reach 90+ modifiers before Epic levels, and thus didn't eve bother to make them require 21 HD.

Which kind of makes sense, to be honest? I mean, going for ridiculousness in a core game here, without synergies:
23(ranks) + 13(36 attribute) + 3(Skill focus) + 2(MW Tool) + 30(Competence item)= +71
That lets you do some Halfling Spelunking if you take 10, but is extremely unlikely to successfully get. But once you start factoring in size, synergies, X to Y Stat, class features, racial bonuses, Shapechange...

What's the record for a jump check again, some hundreds?

[ArcturusV]

There's a few other feats. Attention to Detail (Lion clan Ancestral Feat) +2 to Sense Motive and Spot.

Similarly Kami's Intuition for another +2 to Sense Motive.

Smooth Talk, similar +2.

Soul of Sincerity, for a +4 sense motive but -2 on bluff.

[Vin Robinson]

I would suggest Item Familiar for optimizing any skill.

[AMFV]

There's a few other feats. Attention to Detail (Lion clan Ancestral Feat) +2 to Sense Motive and Spot.

Similarly Kami's Intuition for another +2 to Sense Motive.

Smooth Talk, similar +2.

Soul of Sincerity, for a +4 sense motive but -2 on bluff.

That is pretty awesome, I hadn't checked OA, although it sucks that they're all from different Clans. Definitely it looks like Soul of Sincerity might be the best out of that bunch since we don't really need bluff that high.

[Essence_of_War]

Take a level of Marshal (or hang out with a Marshal cohort! :smalltongue: ) for Motivate Wisdom to add Cha (untyped?) to Sense Motive also.

Persist Greater Heroism for a +4 morale bonus?

[AMFV]

I would suggest Item Familiar for optimizing any skill.

I can't believe I'd forgotten about Item Familiars, it would definitely be attainable at 20 with that. Possibly earlier if we use other things.

So right we have
+8 to +13 (Ability Modifier)
+9 (effectively, but actually, taking ten with Exemplar)
+30 Competency item
+23 Ranks at level 20
+23 Item Familiar Bonus
+2 Circumstance Bonus from masterwork tools
+4 Soul of Sincerity Feat
+3 Skill Focus (Sense Motive)
+2 Negotiator Feat

That brings us clear to 104, at level 20, although it would be nice to try to get it a little earlier if possible. Additionally I just realized that the bonus from Exemplar is competency and therefore doesn't stack so I've removed it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at 3rd level and invest every skill point you get after that point into it for the greatest return. That can add a bonus to your Sense Motive skill equal to your ranks in the skill. It's an intelligent item, so for a lesser power give it Sense Motive 10 ranks, and it can Aid Another to give you another +2. That can also have the +30 Competence bonus, among other effects. So that one item gives you +55 at level 20 (23 invest skill ranks, 30 competence, 2 aid another).

A Crystal Mask of Discernment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#crystalMaskofDiscernment) gives another +10 Insight bonus.

A Masterwork Tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) gives you a +2 Circumstance bonus to the skill it's designed for. I'm not sure what sort of tool would give a bonus to Sense Motive, but visibly using it would make it obvious to everyone.

There's also the feats Skill Focus and Negotiator for another +5.

So at level 20 that's:
23 skill ranks
23 Invest Skill Ranks
30 Competence
10 Insight
2 Aid Another
2 Circumstance
3 Skill Focus
2 Negotiator
11 Wisdom 32
10 taking ten on the check
116 total check result

You could actually do that at level 13, reducing skill ranks and invested skill ranks both to 16, for a total check result of 100 by taking ten.

[Chronos]

Why are people assuming so little from Wis? Start with 18, add five from levels, five from a tome or wishes, 6 from an item, and 3 from aging, for 37, or a +13. And that's just from Core: If Spell Compendium is on the table, you can use Owl's Insight for a bonus equal to half your caster level, or a +12 Wis (+6 to the modifier) assuming no caster-level boosting beyond a bead of karma.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Don't forget Truthseeker Goggles for a 2+(2 times essence investment) insight bonus. With a splash of Incarnate and the Expanded Capacity feat, that's an easy +14.

[Gemini476]

A Masterwork Tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) gives you a +2 Circumstance bonus to the skill it's designed for. I'm not sure what sort of tool would give a bonus to Sense Motive, but visibly using it would make it obvious to everyone.

A book is the standard answer to weird skills, I believe.
The Little Paladin's Guide to Falsehood
White Knights and White Lies: Memoir of an Ex-Paladin
When to Smite and When to Cleave: When is evil not Evil
The Discerning Gentle Mannes Guide to Liars: a Treatise on Forkéd Tongues, Devilish Falsitudes, and the Disposal Thereof
You Have Huge Bluff, That Means You Have Huge Evil: Cleave And Smite
+2 Pocketbook of Sense Motive
A Psion's Senses: It's Like, Totally Groovy Man
Inevitables and Inevitabilities: Breaking Oathbreakers
Sense Motive and Detect Evil: Avoiding Faux Pas at the Dinner Table
To Comprehend Possibility, and Dispose of Impossibility: A Bard's Guidebook to Glibness
"I Am The Moon, Come Down To Oversee The Tides": The Most Incredible Tale Ever Told, Based On The True Story (Critics: He Is The Moon.)

The sky is the limit!

For extra fun points, make a list of books and use a different title each time you are asked. Hopefully you do not need to pay 50GP for each one, but scrap that idea if you do.

[Drelua]

It's Pathfinder, and it's not much, but the feat Snake Style gives a +2 to Sense Motive, and more importantly it lets you replace your AC with a Sense Motive check against one attack as an immediate action. I don't see why it couldn't be ported into a 3.5 game, it is meant to be backwards compatible after all.

[Waker]

A book is the standard answer to weird skills, I believe.
The Little Paladin's Guide to Falsehood
White Knights and White Lies: Memoir of an Ex-Paladin
When to Smite and When to Cleave: When is evil not Evil
The Discerning Gentle Mannes Guide to Liars: a Treatise on Forkéd Tongues, Devilish Falsitudes, and the Disposal Thereof
You Have Huge Bluff, That Means You Have Huge Evil: Cleave And Smite
+2 Pocketbook of Sense Motive
A Psion's Senses: It's Like, Totally Groovy Man
Inevitables and Inevitabilities: Breaking Oathbreakers
Sense Motive and Detect Evil: Avoiding Faux Pas at the Dinner Table
To Comprehend Possibility, and Dispose of Impossibility: A Bard's Guidebook to Glibness
"I Am The Moon, Come Down To Oversee The Tides": The Most Incredible Tale Ever Told, Based On The True Story (Critics: He Is The Moon.)
Very good sir. Were I in the habit of wearing hats, I would tip mine to you.

[Person_Man]

Though it's not exactly what you're looking for, you may wish to consider teh Charming Veil Soulmeld (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) bound to Crown Chakra. Gives you a bonus to save DCs of your charm and compulsion powers and psi-like abilities, read thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/readThoughts.htm) at will, insight bonus on Sense Motive checks equal to the number of points of essentia invested in the veil to detect others under a charm or compulsion effect, and an insight bonus on saving throws to resist charm and compulsion effects targeting you.

You can access it with 2 levels of Incarnate, or 2 Feats (Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra).

[Piggy Knowles]

I know it isn't really the point, but alternatively instead of boosting your Sense Motive check, you could reduce the DC. Three levels of Vigilant Sentinel of Aerenal will drop the Sense Motive DC to 10+Cha+HD, which will be less than the DC 100 you'd normally face for anything but a great wyrm prismatic/force dragon.

[AMFV]

I know it isn't really the point, but alternatively instead of boosting your Sense Motive check, you could reduce the DC. Three levels of Vigilant Sentinel of Aerenal will drop the Sense Motive DC to 10+Cha+HD, which will be less than the DC 100 you'd normally face for anything but a great wyrm prismatic/force dragon.

I have actually seen that one, although it's actually considerably worse, since it doesn't act the same way as sense thoughts but rather just confers a small bonus to social skills, it also is (SU) which is generally worse. It is a good alternative though if you can't reach the higher level DC.

[AMFV]

Though it's not exactly what you're looking for, you may wish to consider teh Charming Veil Soulmeld (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) bound to Crown Chakra. Gives you a bonus to save DCs of your charm and compulsion powers and psi-like abilities, read thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/readThoughts.htm) at will, insight bonus on Sense Motive checks equal to the number of points of essentia invested in the veil to detect others under a charm or compulsion effect, and an insight bonus on saving throws to resist charm and compulsion effects targeting you.

You can access it with 2 levels of Incarnate, or 2 Feats (Shape Soulmeld and Open Least Chakra).

This is a pretty awesome option too. I may have to consider this as well. Mostly the point of this is I came on the thought reading thing while I was trying to create a Combat Therapist character, I also have been binge watching Lie to Me, which has inspired this particular quest.

[avr]

If you have at least one psionic power point, the Inquisitor feat can give you a +10 sense motive when you expend your focus.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you have at least one psionic power point, the Inquisitor feat can give you a +10 sense motive when you expend your focus.

That's only to oppose a Bluff check, not for the check he's trying to make.

[AMFV]

Well there is a lot of good stuff, and I wonder what the earliest anybody can manage to make this come online. Bonus points if you can make it so the character is viable beyond simply sensing motives.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well there is a lot of good stuff, and I wonder what the earliest anybody can manage to make this come online. Bonus points if you can make it so the character is viable beyond simply sensing motives.

Human Druid 13, take Apprentice (Philosopher) or Martial Study (Setting Sun) to get it as a class skill. Use two flaws for extra feats, get Skill Focus: Sense Motive (+3), Negotiator (+2), Natural Bond, Item Familiar, Natural Spell, Leadership, and any feat you want at 12th level.

Wis 18, +1 age, +3 levels, +6 Enhancement = 28 (+9), and 16 ranks in Sense Motive (+16).

Your Cohort is a Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) 1/ anything (Fiend of Possession for +4 to all six stats works, but is not considered), with Motivate Wisdom and Cha 18+ (+4). He also has enough Sense Motive himself to Aid Another (+2).

Item Familiar has Sense Motive 10 ranks so it can Aid Another (+2), a +30 Competence bonus attached (+30), and let's just make it the Crystal Mask of Discernment for another +10 Instight bonus (+10). You've invest every skill point from 4th level to your current level into it, which with Human and Int 10 is 50 skill ranks, for a +16 which you apply toward Sense Motive (+16).

+16 Ranks
+16 Invested Skill Ranks
+30 Competence
+10 Insight
+2 Negotiator
+3 Skill Focus
+4 Aid Another x2
+4 Motivate Wisdom
+9 Wisdom 28
10 Take ten
=104 total check result as a Druid 13 with Natural Spell, Natural Bond, and one open feat.

[Piggy Knowles]

I have actually seen that one, although it's actually considerably worse, since it doesn't act the same way as sense thoughts but rather just confers a small bonus to social skills, it also is (SU) which is generally worse. It is a good alternative though if you can't reach the higher level DC.

Well, while the direct mechanical benefit is the +4 boost to social skills, it also does explicitly say it gives you the scattered surface thoughts of whomever you're reading, and mentions things like passwords.