Pathfinder: "Batman" Sorcerer Advice

[Red.Tide]

Hey all; I'm creating a level 1 sorcerer for a campaign. I want him to eventually become a "Batman" sorcerer; one who knows as many spells as possible for as many different possible situations. Before you say anything, I understand that this is not the optimal way to play a sorcerer, but I want to try it out. I just have several questions, many of which will not apply until I'm a higher level; if you feel able to answer any or all of them, I would appreciate it.

1. 15 point buy. I currently have
STR 8 (I don't plan on having range:touch spells)
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 12 (I want to feel justified in roleplaying a smart character who can come up with clever strategies/ideas)
WIS 8
CHA 16 (+2=18)

I have 3 remaining points to spend. Should I use them to bump up DEX to 14 (less trouble hitting with rays at low levels, better REF saves and AC) or CHA to 17(+2=19) (+1 to saves but only at certain levels)? I will have some buff spells, some utility spells, some save-or-sucks, and some direct damage spells.

2. I am aware of the following ways of maximizing the number of spells I am able to cast:

- Human alternate favored class bonus
- Arcane bloodline (also has some good general-purpose metamagic abilities)
- Pages/rings of spell knowledge (expensive, will use sparingly)
- Expanded Arcana (probably only worth it at high levels)
- Mnemonic Vestment (I was very pleased when I read about this item).

Are there any other ways in Pathfinder?

3. The idea of eventually owning 4 or so Mnemonic Vestments and switching them out between battles seems appealing; for magic items, they're pretty cheap at 5000gp. This would essentially give me a once-per-encounter power of casting one spell that can be anything from my scroll/spellbook collection. However, I don't want to use tactics that are perceived as cheesy or munchkin-y. So, experienced players, would you frown on someone trying to do something like this, or is this a legitimate tactic?

4. What general-purpose (non-metamagic) feats would you consider useful? I'm leaning towards taking Improved Initiative, Combat Casting early on (I want them before my first bloodline feat at level 7). I'll use bloodline feats to take Spell Focus in schools with lots of spells with saves.

5. What metamagic feats would you consider generally useful? Right now, I'm leaning towards eventually taking Silent, Persistent, Maximize, and Quicken.

Obviously, my plans might change as we play, but I want a strong idea of how my character will grow going into the campaign.

[Arbane]

Consider the Razmirian False Priest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/razmiran-priest) archetype: at 9th level, they gain the ability to expend spell-slots to use divine magic scrolls and wands without using them up.

As for metamagic, my one effort at playing a PF caster so far got a lot of mileage out of an Extend Spell rod, for long-duration buffs and such. At level 10+, Penetrating Spell starts looking better and better, since everything and its grandma had Spell Resistance by then. :smallmad:

Silent Spell is useful if you expect to do a lot of sneaking, or to get silenced a lot. Otherwise, not so good - and if you're expecting to be silenced, plan on taking Still Spell, too.

[Saidoro]

1. 15 point buy. I currently have
STR 8 (I don't plan on having range:touch spells)
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 12 (I want to feel justified in roleplaying a smart character who can come up with clever strategies/ideas)
WIS 8
CHA 16 (+2=18)
Either int or Dex, you don't really need the extra point of charisma.

2. I am aware of the following ways of maximizing the number of spells I am able to cast:

- Human alternate favored class bonus
- Arcane bloodline (also has some good general-purpose metamagic abilities)
- Pages/rings of spell knowledge (expensive, will use sparingly)
- Expanded Arcana (probably only worth it at high levels)
- Mnemonic Vestment (I was very pleased when I read about this item).

Are there any other ways in Pathfinder?
Note that half-orcs and half-elves can also access human favored class bonuses. Also, there's a cheesy trick where half elves can use the paragon surge spell to temporarily gain access to the Arcane Bloodline's extra power known power through Improved Eldritch Heritage and add any spell known they want to their list. I wouldn't recommend it, but it exists. Daivrat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/daivrat) and Veiled Illusionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/veiled-illusionist) can both add spells known, but neither does all that much straight sorcerer doesn't.

3. The idea of eventually owning 4 or so Mnemonic Vestments and switching them out between battles seems appealing; for magic items, they're pretty cheap at 5000gp. This would essentially give me a once-per-encounter power of casting one spell that can be anything from my scroll/spellbook collection. However, I don't want to use tactics that are perceived as cheesy or munchkin-y. So, experienced players, would you frown on someone trying to do something like this, or is this a legitimate tactic?
Sounds fine to me.

4. What general-purpose (non-metamagic) feats would you consider useful? I'm leaning towards taking Improved Initiative, Combat Casting early on (I want them before my first bloodline feat at level 7). I'll use bloodline feats to take Spell Focus in schools with lots of spells with saves.
Definitely craft wondrous items. Even ignoring its other applications, the ability to sell off your pages of spell knowledge and craft a new set with the spells you want is amazing.

5. What metamagic feats would you consider generally useful? Right now, I'm leaning towards eventually taking Silent, Persistent, Maximize, and Quicken.
Maximize isn't very good. Silent is too variable based on campaign for me to comment on. Strongly consider dazing spell, it is very powerful.

[Ravens_cry]

Heh, with the various ways sorcerers can get different spells through purchasing, they pretty much are Batman, crime fighting with cash.

[Red.Tide]

Consider the Razmirian False Priest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/razmiran-priest) archetype: at 9th level, they gain the ability to expend spell-slots to use divine magic scrolls and wands without using them up.

As for metamagic, my one effort at playing a PF caster so far got a lot of mileage out of an Extend Spell rod, for long-duration buffs and such. At level 10+, Penetrating Spell starts looking better and better, since everything and its grandma had Spell Resistance by then. :smallmad:

Silent Spell is useful if you expect to do a lot of sneaking, or to get silenced a lot. Otherwise, not so good - and if you're expecting to be silenced, plan on taking Still Spell, too.

Thanks for the pointer to False Priest. I don't know if I'll use it with this character because of flavor concerns, but that False Channel is pretty amazing...

I should probably grab penetrating spell; that's a good idea. Extend spell does sound like a decent rod.

My rationale for Silent Spell was for sneaking, but mainly so I could cast dimension door in order to escape almost anything (no somatic component means I can skip still spell). I might reconsider this, though.

[Cassidius]

2) I'm pretty sure the ring of wizardry is what you really want. doubles the number of spells you can cast of a certain spell level per day. It says it can be used by "arcane spellcasters" so don't let the name fool you.

Just as a thought: When I think Batman types, I think the arcane trickster. Lots of skill points, sneak attack, and spells. Even better, take the sage bloodline and then intelligence is your casting stat, not charisma, which seems more batmanesque to me. Plus you'll enjoy all of those skill points to throw around.

[Red.Tide]

Either int or Dex, you don't really need the extra point of charisma.

Note that half-orcs and half-elves can also access human favored class bonuses. Also, there's a cheesy trick where half elves can use the paragon surge spell to temporarily gain access to the Arcane Bloodline's extra power known power through Improved Eldritch Heritage and add any spell known they want to their list. I wouldn't recommend it, but it exists. Daivrat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/daivrat) and Veiled Illusionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/veiled-illusionist) can both add spells known, but neither does all that much straight sorcerer doesn't.

Sounds fine to me.

Definitely craft wondrous items. Even ignoring its other applications, the ability to sell off your pages of spell knowledge and craft a new set with the spells you want is amazing.

Maximize isn't very good. Silent is too variable based on campaign for me to comment on. Strongly consider dazing spell, it is very powerful.

Thanks for your answers.

I'll bump Dex to 14; I was leaning towards that since an extra +1 in Dex is always useful, but I would only get the benefit of +1 charisma some of the time going from 18 to 19. I was conflicted because some of the guides say to really pump your charisma. I don't need a 14 int; I'm going for street-smart and able to think on my feet, not a tactical genius.

I think a FAQ answer claims that Half-Orcs and -Elves can't get those alternate favored class bonuses; either way, I'd rather have a bonus feat and skill rank over their abilities. I'd heard about paragon surge, but I don't want to try anything that cheesy.

Craft Wondrous Items seems pretty good; I'll have to decide whether I want to worry about crafting in-game.

[Red.Tide]

2) I'm pretty sure the ring of wizardry is what you really want. doubles the number of spells you can cast of a certain spell level per day. It says it can be used by "arcane spellcasters" so don't let the name fool you.

Just as a thought: When I think Batman types, I think the arcane trickster. Lots of skill points, sneak attack, and spells. Even better, take the sage bloodline and then intelligence is your casting stat, not charisma, which seems more batmanesque to me. Plus you'll enjoy all of those skill points to throw around.

A ring of wizardry gives me spell slots, which is nice, but as a sorcerer, I'm much more interested in getting more spells known than even more spell slots.

When I said "Batman" sorcerer, I was referring to the term people use for optimized wizards that have enough spells to always be prepared for any situation. Thus, a "Batman" sorcerer focuses on ways to have access to as many different spells as possible, and chooses general-purpose spells to have as much diverse utility as possible (s/he'll never be as good in this regard as the wizard, but being a Sorcerer has enough other perks that I still want to play one).

Sage bloodline I also considered, but I didn't like the replacement powers, and I wanted the feel of a charismatic, easygoing character. So, once again, it's partially flavor.

Thanks for all the suggestions, though. Even though I won't be using all of them, you've drawn my attention to some things I would consider for another character.

[grarrrg]

Note that half-orcs and half-elves can also access human favored class bonuses.

No, they can't.
They can take Feats/Spells/Classes that require being Human, but there is nothing anywhere that lets you take another Race's Favored Bonus options.


Also, there's a cheesy trick where half elves can use the paragon surge spell to temporarily gain access to the Arcane Bloodline's extra power known power through Improved Eldritch Heritage and add any spell known they want to their list.

As a Sorcerer, he doesn't need the whole 'Eldritch Heritage' thing. He can simply grab Expanded Arcana with Surge and be done.
The Eldritch Heritage part really only applies to Oracles.

[Cassidius]

My bad Red, didn't follow your lingo there. Sounds like an interesting concept though, I may borrow it with my next sorcerer.

[3WhiteFox3]

No, they can't.
They can take Feats/Spells/Classes that require being Human, but there is nothing anywhere that lets you take another Race's Favored Bonus options.



As a Sorcerer, he doesn't need the whole 'Eldritch Heritage' thing. He can simply grab Expanded Arcana with Surge and be done.
The Eldritch Heritage part really only applies to Oracles.
That used to be true. However there was a recent FAQ ruling that fixed some contradictory errata which made the half-x races capable of taking favored class bonuses AND archetypes.

It can be found here if you want to look at it. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9r7c)

[grarrrg]

That used to be true. However there was a recent FAQ ruling that fixed some contradictory errata which made the half-x races capable of taking favored class bonuses AND archetypes.

It can be found here if you want to look at it. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9r7c)

:smallconfused:
"Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, "
I stand corrected.
I perfectly agree with everything else in that FAQ, except the Favored Class options part.
To me those would fall under what the Race gets itself. Like Stat mods, landspeed, any Racial Skill bonuses, etc...

I want to say it's a VERY poorly worded 'blanket term' to cover all the Race stuff > "they really do count as Human this time, HONEST!", but the words _exactly_ match "Favored Class bonuses"...
Wow...
Forget all about Human then...

[Gemini476]

Yeah, the best way for a Batman Sorcerer is probably either Half-Elf with Paragon Surge or Human with Racial Heritage(Half-Elf) and Paragon Surge.
Spending a 3rd level slot to add any sorc/wiz spell to your spells known for a minute is just that good. Especially later on when you can Quicken it.'

Other fun things you can do with Paragon Surge: grab Additional Traits for Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage, grab Spell Mastery....
Is there a feat that is restricted to a single spell, chosen once you take it? Use Paragon Surge to ignore all that nonsense.

Paragon Surge is way better on an Oracle though, since they can grab Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) to get any Clr/Ora or any Sorc/Wiz spell in the game with a standard action.

Paragon Surge, by itself, is what pushes the Sorcerer and Oracle into Tier 1.

It's horribly cheesy, though.

[Karoht]

Man, I've explained the awesomeness of Paragon Surge in so many threads, I'm starting to think I should just sig it already.

Paragon Surge gives you a free feat so long as you qualify for it, for 15 minutes.
Are you a spontaneous caster? Then you specifically qualify for Expanded Arcana, which gives you a spell known added to your list, right now.

Take Razmiran Priest (also known as False Priest) Archetype. When you hit level 9, do one of the following. Take levels in Cypher Mage (really only works with the Sage Archetype as well, and you have to invest a lot of levels in it for a small grab bag of tricks) or do a 3 level dip into Arcane Savant. Arcane Savant allows you to use your Caster Level any time you cast from a scroll. And then you just use False Channel from your False Priest Archetype, the scroll stays in-tact while you cast the spell. Cypher Mage only really gets to do that a few times a day (with caster level and other bonuses), while Arcane Savant can do it all day long.

[Asrrin]

Haven't heard it mentioned, and I'm not sure if it's PF or not (I play 3.5) but Heighten spell is an excellent metamagic for sorcs to get more mileage out of your low level save or suck spells.

[Red.Tide]

Haven't heard it mentioned, and I'm not sure if it's PF or not (I play 3.5) but Heighten spell is an excellent metamagic for sorcs to get more mileage out of your low level save or suck spells.

Heighten spell is in PF, but I think Persistent Spell (it's completely different from 3.5) is much better for that purpose, especially since my bloodline arcana gives me +1 to spell DCs when I use non-Heighten metamagic.

[Karoht]

Persistant and Bouncing are both excellent.
Bouncing especially. 1 level increase, if the spell fails, even due to Spell Resistance, pick another target in range and hit them.

[Joe the Rat]

Persistant and Bouncing are both excellent.
Bouncing especially. 1 level increase, if the spell fails, even due to Spell Resistance, pick another target in range and hit them.

Ooooh, Batarang!