Could GM make a player so powerful even he couldn't kill it?

[The Oni]

Serious question.

I've always been of the opinion that, if you find your characters are too strong, just make the enemies stronger. That said, is it possible for players to reach a point where no logical monster progression will stop or slow them?

[Sith_Happens]

That depends, are homebrew monsters on the table or only published ones?

[Kuulvheysoon]

No. It's called DM fiat for a reason. Anything he says goes.

Most of the Great Wyrm Dragons can hit an effective sorceror level of 21, giving them access to Epic Spellcasting. Which is pretty much completely up to the DM anyways.

[Ortesk]

Cleric 3, church inquisitor 7, sentinal of bharria 10. Hunt vampires and loads of them. buy nightsticks. stack the hell out of DMM. Become immune to negative energy, take endurance/diehard, persist spell which makes -hp not kill you (use diehard to you know not stop fighting) turn into bear, cast Girallions blessing, use basic cleric zilla spells, buy an item which duplicates 17 CL wu jen spell Giant Size, turn colossal (if you stack in best order colossal+ due to being righteous might) have 2 arms for medium, 2 for each size higher. 12 extra arms, each with harm on them. Win alot. can it be beaten? of course, but i dont see it done by a level 20

[Der_DWSage]

...And then I politely ask your Cleric to step into this handy antimagic field. Your move.

[Ortesk]

...And then I politely ask your Cleric to step into this handy antimagic field. Your move.

and i have travel domain mixed with craft contigency, i have contigent teleport which says second amf comes within 10 feet of me, buh bye. also if your a wizard/sorceror (im exempting fighter here, if they have an amf item im gonna come say hi soon) do you want to get close to me with 0 magic? and if your martial i wait for item to run its course and i come kill you. if a wizard cast it on you, im fairly sure i can kill him soon enough, just give me a second. clerics are hell on the dm, i know i had to challenge the above guy why'll not killing the barbarian....

[Sith_Happens]

...And then I politely ask your Cleric to step into this handy antimagic field. Your move.

1. Have Initiate of Mystra feat.
2. ???
3. Profit.

[Spuddles]

Cleric 3, church inquisitor 7, sentinal of bharria 10. Hunt vampires and loads of them. buy nightsticks. stack the hell out of DMM. Become immune to negative energy, take endurance/diehard, persist spell which makes -hp not kill you (use diehard to you know not stop fighting) turn into bear, cast Girallions blessing, use basic cleric zilla spells, buy an item which duplicates 17 CL wu jen spell Giant Size, turn colossal (if you stack in best order colossal+ due to being righteous might) have 2 arms for medium, 2 for each size higher. 12 extra arms, each with harm on them. Win alot. can it be beaten? of course, but i dont see it done by a level 20

Adamantine Clockwork Horror. CR 13 I believe. Comes with Disjunction.
trololol

[Ortesk]

Adamantine Clockwork Horror. CR 13 I believe. Comes with Disjunction.
trololol

my google says disentegrate :P

[Ortesk]

...And then I politely ask your Cleric to step into this handy antimagic field. Your move.

also i can just umd and spam scrolls of wall of force. let you sit like a good boy until silly amf is gone. then i hulk smash you. then convert you to good by way of magic. only after hulk smash

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Adamantine Clockwork Horror. CR 13 I believe. Comes with Disjunction.
trolololEven better, CR 9 (and it has Disintegrate, Implosion, and Disjunction, and other stuff.

Let's say you have a character who is constrained to practical optimization - he can't become immortal through Aleaxes or Pun Pun or whatever. He has some build at some level that makes him really powerful and hard to kill. This character can indeed face something more powerful than himself -- N of himself, where N > 1. Bonus points if they know his tactics and can prepare/counter them before the fight. Double bonus points if they use Wish's travel clause to get his primary body + clones out in the open.

[Dumbledore lives]

Short answer no. Long answer the DM has pun-pun as a back up, or at least the Wish and the Word or any number of other OP builds if he wants to. Or if all else fails, rocks fall everyone dies.

[Ortesk]

Even better, CR 9 (and it has Disintegrate, Implosion, and Disjunction, and other stuff.

Let's say you have a character who is constrained to practical optimization - he can't become immortal through Aleaxes or Pun Pun or whatever. He has some build at some level that makes him really powerful and hard to kill. This character can indeed face something more powerful than himself -- N of himself, where N > 1. Bonus points if they know his tactics and can prepare/counter them before the fight. Double bonus points if they use Wish's travel clause to get his primary body + clones out in the open.

Unless you do some silly pun pun stuff, of course any one can be beaten by heaping levels on an enemy. its really kind of amateur way to kill a guy. Oh you cant challenge your level 10 party? throw a tarrasque at them, that makes you awesome! can you see by my, well admittingly bad, example how just chucking levels on a person will kill another person? i think OP was saying can you build something so good a counter part its own level/cr cant kill it, no matter what. if you build a guy, who is same as guy 1, you didnt prove he can die. you simply proved he can beat himself, not someone else can beat him

[Der_DWSage]

also i can just umd and spam scrolls of wall of force. let you sit like a good boy until silly amf is gone. then i hulk smash you. then convert you to good by way of magic. only after hulk smash

Cross-class UMD? On a Cleric's skill point limits? That's a DC 30 check, mate.

For the sake of argument here, it's a Warblade that's got his own AMF. Have fun with your 'hulk smash.'

(The point I'm making here is that your strength all comes from one source-magic. A GM can easily counter that with a few Dispel Magics, a Disjunction, a simple antimagic field, or even the humble Spellthief. To truly become so powerful a GM can't stop you, you need Pun-Pun level optimization, and even then, you need time.)

[Spuddles]

my google says disentegrate :P

20 clockwork horrors spamming implosion, disintegrate, and disjunction is only CR18.

[Ortesk]

Cross-class UMD? On a Cleric's skill point limits? That's a DC 30 check, mate.

For the sake of argument here, it's a Warblade that's got his own AMF. Have fun with your 'hulk smash.'

(The point I'm making here is that your strength all comes from one source-magic. A GM can easily counter that with a few Dispel Magics, a Disjunction, a simple antimagic field, or even the humble Spellthief. To truly become so powerful a GM can't stop you, you need Pun-Pun level optimization, and even then, you need time.)

Magic domain should do it, im afb so give me minor slack :P and at the end of the day a GM can kill anyone flat out. level 20 guys can die by way of level 17 easily, just go Miracle: you no longer exist. Im GM and decide how it works. the end. point i was making was, if its a pc and you dont want to be an ass, some builds will be just to good to kill without some god moding (disjunction would end my cleric yes, i admit defeat there) but any group who suffers dysjunction will lynch you. now if you as GM makes a guy who simply wont go down, poof in existance someone better and off him. simple. if its a player, its trickier

[Der_DWSage]

Amusingly, I can think of a simple way to kill that particular build with a 3rd level Cleric.

Though some miraculous bout of luck, he manages to take you down to -1 HP. (I'm thinking a whole horde of CR 1/4 peasants with crossbows spread over a 200 foot radius plane-even with your reach, you can't take out more than a few per round, and they can plink away at you ineffectively until your HP is lowered significantly. Incidentally, you also can't 'hold' twelve harm spells on your arms. As soon as you cast another harm, the first one dissipates.)

Cast Death Knell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathKnell.htm) (This assumes you roll a 1 on the save.) Because you're below -1 HP, it counts, and he drains your soul.

Unlikely? On so many levels. Possible to kill your Clericzilla monster? Yes, if only on the edge of possibility. And it would make a wonderful 'David and Goliath' type of story.



The trick to challenging players isn't to meet their strength with more HD-it's to come up with cunning tactics and challenges that challenge their weaknesses, and force them onto the defensive.

If you want PCs that are truly hard to kill permanently, look into the Tippyverse and the many layers of defenses that mages have.

[Ortesk]

Amusingly, I can think of a simple way to kill that particular build with a 3rd level Cleric.

Though some miraculous bout of luck, he manages to take you down to -1 HP. (I'm thinking a whole horde of CR 1/4 peasants with crossbows spread over a 200 foot radius plane-even with your reach, you can't take out more than a few per round, and they can plink away at you ineffectively until your HP is lowered significantly. Incidentally, you also can't 'hold' twelve harm spells on your arms. As soon as you cast another harm, the first one dissipates.)

Cast Death Knell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathKnell.htm) (This assumes you roll a 1 on the save.) Because you're below -1 HP, it counts, and he drains your soul.

Unlikely? On so many levels. Possible to kill your Clericzilla monster? Yes, if only on the edge of possibility. And it would make a wonderful 'David and Goliath' type of story.



The trick to challenging players isn't to meet their strength with more HD-it's to come up with cunning tactics and challenges that challenge their weaknesses, and force them onto the defensive.

If you want PCs that are truly hard to kill permanently, look into the Tippyverse and the many layers of defenses that mages have.

and a persisted deathward stops that, or we can look at heart stop as a means of getting rid of clericzilla, or well any save-or-die spell. Also holding harms came from spell flower, which should work if memory serves. id have to look it up

Edit- I do want to say i completely agree with you about challenging pc's by being creative, which we need more dm's like you lol

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Unless you do some silly pun pun stuff, of course any one can be beaten by heaping levels on an enemy. its really kind of amateur way to kill a guy. Oh you cant challenge your level 10 party? throw a tarrasque at them, that makes you awesome! can you see by my, well admittingly bad, example how just chucking levels on a person will kill another person? i think OP was saying can you build something so good a counter part its own level/cr cant kill it, no matter what. if you build a guy, who is same as guy 1, you didnt prove he can die. you simply proved he can beat himself, not someone else can beat himThe point is that you're the DM. Your player is using his unlimited resources of internet-acquired game knowledge, and you are using your unlimited resources of characters and levels and things in the game world. I just showed an admittedly obvious demonstration of that. I'm not saying this is a good idea.

Now, if you want to tie one hand behind your back and use CR-appropriate challenges and still kill the character, you'll either have to out-optimize the PC or use silly under-CR'd things from the monster manual like a horde of adamantine horrors, or template stacking like the Emerald Legion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587).

[Spuddles]

Non-associated caster levels are pretty good. Cleric on giants is amazing.

[Zanos]

Non-associated caster levels are pretty good. Cleric on giants is amazing.
Considering cleric HD are literally in every way better than giant HD, I'd be hard pressed to call them non-associated, especially considering that "buff then hit stuff" is a valid cleric play-style, and a giant base only supports that.

[Spuddles]

Considering cleric HD are literally in every way better than giant HD, I'd be hard pressed to call them non-associated, especially considering that "buff then hit stuff" is a valid cleric play-style, and a giant base only supports that.

Exemplars of Evil classifies them as non-associated for giants.

[Zanos]

Exemplars of Evil classifies them as non-associated for giants.
Unless you're talking about an entry besides the one on page 116, it only seems to apply to fire giants. Scary, and a good trick regardless.


Following RAW, I don't think it's possible for a player to become so powerful a DM can't kill them. Even without rocks falls, everyone dies, a DM can optimize just as hard as you can. Build a super optimized wizard? That's fine. He has five. If his tactics don't work he can just try again, and make future attempts use your own tricks against you, plus whatever he comes up with. You might wind up just fighting yourself with whatever your DM can cook up thrown on. Remember that 5% of encounters are supposed to be overwhelming, and a level 21 wizard is only CR 21.

[icks]

You are the DM so cheat!

[Mystral]

Serious question.

I've always been of the opinion that, if you find your characters are too strong, just make the enemies stronger. That said, is it possible for players to reach a point where no logical monster progression will stop or slow them?

There can always be another NPC with 10 more class levels.

If you only go by monsters, sure, at some point even the epic monsters with huge amounts of advancement fall behind.

[Memphos]

Well, I think the DM could just say "Hum, ok, how about UNLIMITED devils attacking you from everywhere casting and throwing at you everything?". You can, maybe, survive some thousands of that, but unlimited monsters....

I post this reply considering the worst case scenario, where the PCs are so strong that neither a demi-god can break them

[Egopunk]

Have said PC piss off Lady of Pain

Solved

[TuggyNE]

Well, I think the DM could just say "Hum, ok, how about UNLIMITED devils attacking you from everywhere casting and throwing at you everything?". You can, maybe, survive some thousands of that, but unlimited monsters....

I post this reply considering the worst case scenario, where the PCs are so strong that neither a demi-god can break them

Lots and lots of prismatic walls or some other similar ability (resetting traps of sacred object on airborne dust? symbol spells? be creative!) would put paid to this idea. Sometimes, quantity can't substitute for quality.

[molten_dragon]

Serious question.

I've always been of the opinion that, if you find your characters are too strong, just make the enemies stronger. That said, is it possible for players to reach a point where no logical monster progression will stop or slow them?

No, the DM can kill anything the players make. Yes, even pun-pun. It may require DM fiat, but he can do it.

Even without relying on DM fiat, he can always just fight fire with fire (or fight pun-pun with pun-pun).

In a practical sense, it comes down to who's a better optimizer, the player or the DM. If the player is better at optimizing than the DM is, the DM will have trouble killing the player without resorting to fiat.

[ahenobarbi]

Cleric 3, church inquisitor 7, sentinal of bharria 10. Hunt vampires and loads of them. buy nightsticks. stack the hell out of DMM. Become immune to negative energy, take endurance/diehard, persist spell which makes -hp not kill you (use diehard to you know not stop fighting) turn into bear, cast Girallions blessing, use basic cleric zilla spells, buy an item which duplicates 17 CL wu jen spell Giant Size, turn colossal (if you stack in best order colossal+ due to being righteous might) have 2 arms for medium, 2 for each size higher. 12 extra arms, each with harm on them. Win alot. can it be beaten? of course, but i dont see it done by a level 20

Cleric 5 / Ruby knight Vindicator 7. Buy Antimagic Shackles, rat and imperial ton of nightsticks (note: I didn't check WBL you might need higher level to actually pull this off). Put shackles on the rat, throw it next to the cleric (thus disabling his buffs). Laugh as you kill he helpless cleric by throwing rocks at him (thanks to the arbitrary number of actions combo).

Wish the cleric into dead magic zone and have your barbarian friend smash it.

[Brookshw]

Sooner or later a nat 1 on a save vs. die comes up and you can't protect from everything all the time. Oh the nat 1, final arbiter of us all.

[Emperor Tippy]

Not if the DM stays inside the RAW and doesn't resort to maximum Pun-Pun (who gets to make up his own abilities).

Unlimited enemies won't even begin to be enough to do it, nor will dead magic planes, or deities.

The DM can still fiat artifacts, spells, and abilities into existence that bypass the PC's defenses but without fiat, no it can't be done.

[BWR]

Have said PC piss off Lady of Pain while in Sigil

Solved

Fixed that for you. Basically, the Lady is just a face for DM fiat.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Not if the DM stays inside the RAW and doesn't resort to maximum Pun-Pun (who gets to make up his own abilities).

This seems counterintuitive. By definition, a DM can create an NPC that is the exact copy of a PC, that is, that is exactly as powerful as the PC. Also by definition, the DM can create as many copies of this NPC as desired. In addition, the DM has RAW resources for her or his NPCs that are not available to the player (NPC-only classes, templates, or races).

In other words, saying that it is possible to create a PC that cannot be defeated by NPCs amounts to saying that it is possible to create a character that cannot be defeated by unlimited copies of itself that have additional resources not available to it.

How would that work?

[Captnq]

1. This is a 3.0/3.5 d20 discussion board. It is a DM, not a GM.
2. DM's don't make players, DM's Make NPCs.
3. Players are born in the real world and they make PCs.

The answer to your question is, Neither Yes or No. Your question is based on false assumptions and incorrect data.

If your question was supposed to be:

Can a DM allow a Player to make a PC that is so powerful that he cannot kill it?

They answer is, Highly Unlikely.

However, simply killing a PC does not mean the PC is defeated. In D&D death is but a door and it isn't that hard to make your way back. At a high enough level, death is a speed bump and this applies to both sides of the PC/NPC divide. So I think you should ask the following question instead:


Can a DM run his campaign into a corner?

The answer is, yes. It is easy for a DM to put himself into a position, regardless of power level, where he simply has lost control of the situation. The PCs are not challenged or the challenge is too much. It is tempting for the DM to simply wave his hand and "fix" the situation, but such actions always seem like "cheating" or at the very least destroys the illusions that are so important for the game to work.

Of course the DM can always say, "And your PC is turned into a turnip and eaten by a grue. No saving throw." But then I counter with: The player can always quit. Both DM and Player in effect have the Mutual Assured Destruction option. The DM can always defeat the player, but the player can stop playing, rendering the DM's victory a pyrrhic one.

A DM with nobody to run for is a sad DM.

[Gemini476]

You know how optimizers try to stick within the RAW, because a lot of things (like custom magic items) are explicitly under DM fiat?

Is the DM likely to stop himself from making ridonkulous custom magic items?

Or, for that matter, take the Sarruhk's Manipulate Form. It's integral to the Pun-Pun build, but ultimately the possibilities of it are completely up to DM Fiat.
And now you have a malevolent DM use it.
Good luck.

Did you know that Epic Spellcasting can strip immunities from people? Did you know that if you are below -10HP, then dispelling the buffs that keep you alive messes you up something terribly?

Did you know that Salient Divine Abilities are horribly overpowered?

[Zorgoth]

Cleric 3, church inquisitor 7, sentinal of bharria 10. Hunt vampires and loads of them. buy nightsticks. stack the hell out of DMM. Become immune to negative energy, take endurance/diehard, persist spell which makes -hp not kill you (use diehard to you know not stop fighting) turn into bear, cast Girallions blessing, use basic cleric zilla spells, buy an item which duplicates 17 CL wu jen spell Giant Size, turn colossal (if you stack in best order colossal+ due to being righteous might) have 2 arms for medium, 2 for each size higher. 12 extra arms, each with harm on them. Win alot. can it be beaten? of course, but i dont see it done by a level 20

"Multiple Magic effects that increase size do not stack"

[Emperor Tippy]

This seems counterintuitive. By definition, a DM can create an NPC that is the exact copy of a PC, that is, that is exactly as powerful as the PC. Also by definition, the DM can create as many copies of this NPC as desired.
That presupposes that the PC can be killed by an unlimited number of copies of its self. That is a flawed supposition.


In addition, the DM has RAW resources for her or his NPCs that are not available to the player (NPC-only classes, templates, or races).
There is not capability in the entire game that you can't get onto a PC. Even without Manipulate Form you can end up with every single ability that has ever appeared in 3.0 or 3.5 on a character, monster, class, or deity.


In other words, saying that it is possible to create a PC that cannot be defeated by NPCs amounts to saying that it is possible to create a character that cannot be defeated by unlimited copies of itself that have additional resources not available to it.
Exactly, it is possible.


How would that work?
Abusing the rules for all that they are worth.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Abusing the rules for all that they are worth.

Well, abusing the rules implies leaving the general consensus of what the RAW say and entering the realm of (PC-favorable, natch) interpretation.

The problem with this is obvious: What matters is not the player’s interpretation but the DM’s. So what you are saying seems to be “It is possible for a DM to allow so much leniency in the rules interpretation that a PC cannot any more be defeated by NPCs.”

The corollary of this is: There are many reasonable interpretations of the RAW that do not enable a PC to become undefeatable, which means that in many cases DM fiat would not be required.

But even if we allow unlimited abuse, I remain unconvinced that that benefits the PC more than the NPCs, to the point where the PC cannot be defeated even if all his defenses are known and the adversaries are as powerful as he and more numerous.

Is there concrete proof that this is possible?

[Anthrowhale]

ExFighter (in my sig) is essentially wizard proof, environment proof, and self-proof.

It's not DM proof, because deities have a 'you are dead' power, and because a sufficiently large number of sufficiently powerful spellcasters casting just the right spells in the right sequence could break it. I don't see how a character could get around those limits.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well, abusing the rules implies leaving the general consensus of what the RAW say and entering the realm of (PC-favorable, natch) interpretation.
No, it's all clear cut RAW legal. It's just broken beyond all belief. It makes XP free Wish's via Zodar Shapechange seem pedestrian.

[Chronos]

Yes, it is possible for the PCs to be so powerful that the DM can't reasonably challenge them. It is always possible for the DM to come up with things the players can handle easily, and it is always possible for the DM to come up with things that can squish the PCs flat. But neither of those is what we want, and that middle ground, challenging but beatable, becomes increasingly narrow as you go up in level. At some point, the desirable middle ground disappears entirely, and if you try to hit it you get the worst of both worlds: Whichever side wins initiative will squish the other like a bug. Which is no fun, win or lose.

[Deox]

No, it's all clear cut RAW legal. It's just broken beyond all belief. It makes XP free Wish's via Zodar Shapechange seem pedestrian.

There is also the RAW saying the DM makes the rules. Does this mean that the entirety of player options are therefore suggestions instead? Hell - how does it affect all other RAW?

[NichG]

The parameters of this are pretty poorly defined, because going to 'RAW-only' responses to the PC is kind of inconsistent with the question of 'what can the GM do?' or specifically making it about the GM rather than, say, another player acting in a neutrally arbitrated environment.

Basically, Tippy's response covers 'is there a character so powerful that another player cannot defeat it given infinite time/resources', which is just an observation that in the asymptotic limit, defense seems to be more absolute than offense (e.g. the Aleax trick).

But how does it being a GM make the situation different within the RAW? Well, strictly within the RAW it doesn't. We have to conclude that the relevant thing is not the game, but the meta-game. And that becomes a very interesting but somewhat disturbing direction to go.

Because now we have to ask, is the GM capable of setting up a situation where they are psychologically helpless to remedy it? Basically, the question 'can I kill this character?' is going to be 'yes' in terms of game considerations, just due to the existence of fiat. But for example, if applying that fiat means ruining a friendship that has more value than the game, then it (generally) would prevent the GM from doing it.

So the answer is 'yes, via mixing the game with things that have real life value greater than the game'.

[Evolved Shrimp]

No, it's all clear cut RAW legal. It's just broken beyond all belief. It makes XP free Wish's via Zodar Shapechange seem pedestrian.

Well, getting wishes via shapechanging into a zodar isn't clear-cut, for example. Sure, you get one, but for the next, you'll have to wait another year if you want to stay in the "clear-cut" territory. Anything else is already heavy interpretation.

(Some other techniques mentioned in these forums even violate RAW. For example "an aleax does not even exist until it is called into being by a deity". In other words, an aleax is not available to players - although it is to the DM.)

So, absent a concrete example, I remain unconvinced that a character within the framework of undisputed RAW can be so powerful as to be undefeatable without DM fiat.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well, getting wishes via shapechanging into a zodar isn't clear-cut, for example. Sure, you get one, but for the next, you'll have to wait another year if you want to stay in the "clear-cut" territory. Anything else is already heavy interpretation.
No, per shapechange you turn into a generic version of the creature in question. A generic Zodar has it's Wish Su. You don't turn into the same Zodar every time you use the spell, that would be a houserule.


(Some other techniques mentioned in these forums even violate RAW. For example "an aleax does not even exist until it is called into being by a deity". In other words, an aleax is not available to players - although it is to the DM.)
Except that said line is utterly irrelevant. Ignoring the PC becoming a deity (which is trivial to do), Simulacrum and Ice Assassin can both produce anything that you have the material component for and with Wish for Scrolls or any of the other methods of negating the need for material components it works by RAW as you aren't creating an Aleax, you are creating an Ice Assassin that just happens to have all of the Aleax's abilities.

[Chronos]

No, per shapechange you turn into a generic version of the creature in question. A generic Zodar has it's Wish Su. You don't turn into the same Zodar every time you use the spell, that would be a houserule.
The interpretation Evolved Shrimp is referring to isn't "You changed into a zodar that has a wish the first time, but the second time you changed into a different one that doesn't have a wish". It's that, both times, the zodar is you. The second time you don't get a wish, because you are the zodar, and you've already used your wish.

[Emperor Tippy]

The interpretation Evolved Shrimp is referring to isn't "You changed into a zodar that has a wish the first time, but the second time you changed into a different one that doesn't have a wish". It's that, both times, the zodar is you. The second time you don't get a wish, because you are the zodar, and you've already used your wish.

Then it ceases to be a generic Zodar.

[DR27]

Does a weirdstone prevent astral projections from entering? Your spirit from returning to your clone? Presumably, a PC should be "killable" via "rocks fall, everyone dies (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp05032002.shtml)" if you are able to black out their "save game" tricks. But maybe RAW doesn't provide enough ways to shut down those tricks. If the argument is that the PC never goes out to adventure, and is therefore immune to the "rocks fall" tactic - then why do you care? PCs are for adventuring, not sitting at home. Seriously, there's nothing a DM can't do.

But I think the spirit of the OP was to be able to challenge them, not exterminate via DM fiat.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Then it ceases to be a generic Zodar.

That's one interpretation. There are other reasonable interpretations, which was my entire point.

[Dapple Birch]

Serious question.

I've always been of the opinion that, if you find your characters are too strong, just make the enemies stronger. That said, is it possible for players to reach a point where no logical monster progression will stop or slow them?

That's why only players feel like it matters how powerful and well optimized they are. What breaks the game is not power level(insert meme) but disparities in power between different players(unless it doesn't) or builds that are hella annoying. Sure you can make something more powerful than that uberwizard but the tricky part is making something that can challenge his group without funlessly(sometimes I invent words, deal with it.) murdering them or vis versa.

IMO smart optimizers build weaknesses into their characters on purpose the less the DM has to work at building challenges scenarios for you the more time he has to make said scenarios good.

[The Oni]

1. This is a 3.0/3.5 d20 discussion board. It is a DM, not a GM.
2. DM's don't make players, DM's Make NPCs.
3. Players are born in the real world and they make PCs.

The answer to your question is, Neither Yes or No. Your question is based on false assumptions and incorrect data.



1. Pathfinder has GMs, not DMs; Pathfinder is a d20 system.
2. It was a play on the "Can God make a rock so heavy..." line.

As for "DM Fiat" I'm specifically referring to logical monster progression. I know that a DM can take a Tarrasque and tack on templates until it has more (Ex/Su/Sp) abilities than the party has hit points; what I'm asking is, is it possible for a player to make a character using only WotC-approved (or in PF, Paizo-approved) feats that a GM HAS to do something like this (or declare that Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies) to beat it? Manipulate Form notwithstanding (assume Pun-Pun has an official monopoly on it)?

[Icewraith]

The "character can be defeated by multiple identical characters" falls apart in a fairly odd way.

Take a commoner X with heavy fortification adamantine full plate, 8 or lower strength, 12 dex, bad charisma, no investment in diplomacy, nonmagical kamas (nonproficient), and a ring of freedom of movement.

Unless I'm misremembering the DR value for adamantine armor, the character can't crit itself, can't hit its own armor class, and even if it could hit, on a non-crit can't damage itself because of the DR. It can't grapple or be bull rushed off a cliff. As a commoner it has no other means of directly engaging in combat. It's also likely to tick off anything it tries to diplomacy into aiding it.

Of course, there are quite a lot of other things that CAN kill it that aren't comprised of an arbitrarily large contingent of the identical character, but I wanted to address the specific case, becuase I thought it was entertaining.

[Gemini476]

1. Pathfinder has GMs, not DMs; Pathfinder is a d20 system.
2. It was a play on the "Can God make a rock so heavy..." line.

As for "DM Fiat" I'm specifically referring to logical monster progression. I know that a DM can take a Tarrasque and tack on templates until it has more (Ex/Su/Sp) abilities than the party has hit points; what I'm asking is, is it possible for a player to make a character using only WotC-approved (or in PF, Paizo-approved) feats that a GM HAS to do something like this (or declare that Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies) to beat it? Manipulate Form notwithstanding (assume Pun-Pun has an official monopoly on it)?

Have you seen The Twice-Betrayer of Shar, the Wish and the Word, or any of the other powerful high-TO builds?

At some point the DM will have trouble beating the character without resorting to things such as Epic Spellcasting (which is totally logical monste progression for some monsters), dieties or just other TO-tricks.

Or, if you want to go with RAW challenges? Well, a certain Kolyarut has, without the notice of the player, finally succeeded in freeing Pandorym from his prison...

As for ways to kill the PC (rather than player) without resorting to flipping the multiversal killswitch? Well, that's a bit more difficult.

(If you are instead looking for suggestions as to how you should kill the AI you created to play in your game, you are a fool to have not put in a killswitch when making it.)

[The Oni]

I have seen Twice-Betrayer. Not familiar with WatW. Also I remember a thing about a player trying to multiclass into Beholder Mage. All of those are pretty broke but I think sufficiently awesome monsters can take them.

[killem2]

DM has the power to limit splat books :)

[Gemini476]

I have seen Twice-Betrayer. Not familiar with WatW. Also I remember a thing about a player trying to multiclass into Beholder Mage. All of those are pretty broke but I think sufficiently awesome monsters can take them.

Well, the Word has an absurdly high CL and every version of Blasphemy, so that instagibs most monsters. The Wish is similar, but with at-will Wish.

The Twice-Betrayer is nigh invincible, although I suppose the Emerald Legion has him beat.


Oh yeah, that's another "build" that could be difficult to deal with. The Dream of Metal. Grab a Thrall, manifest Forced Dream on 'em, tell them to ready an action to activate the Forced Dream as soon as they can, dump said Thrall in a gigantic hourglass of Quintessence. After a thousand years or whatever when the Thrall has been released from his temporal lock, he resets time back to when he got Forced Dream cast on him.

If you kill the guy who pushed his Thrall? Don't worry, he'll be alive next time time rolls around. If you destroy the hourglass? The Thrall is freed and resets time. If you try to attack the Thrall before he comes out? You can't, he's outside time.

For a similar build, Monty and Mini-Monty. The short version is that Mini-Monty is outside time and uses Forced Dream to reset time whenever something goes wrong for Monty.

Or, I suppose, the Omniscifier. You like Diplomancy, right? How about someone who has so high skill bonuses that he automatically knows everything forever, past present and future, and can make the Gods Fanatic?

As for Beholder Mage, a Beholder Mage 2/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8 gets double nines and the Beholder Mage's ability to cast nine spells each turn. He also has eight levels to pad the build with, and I think I recall some build that got ninth-level manifesting as well.

Oh, and Pun-Pun is completely RAW. And stupid RAW, but completely RAW. At the end of his ascension he is literally unkillable, has arbitrarily high everything, is completely unknown to everyone he does not choose to reveal himself to, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Of course, he's the most extreme TO build. There are other, less infinite, builds as well. But whenever you ask "Can arbitrarily high optimization lead to an unbeatable character?" the answer is yes.

[Anthrowhale]

... I think sufficiently awesome monsters can take them.

As an example, how would you do this to a character that has the Invulnerability of a Zodar (Fiend Folio) and the Blunt Weapon Immunity of an Ocean Giant (MMII)?

[inexorabletruth]

Ultimately, a DM is always capable of winning an arms race.

However, games can get tedious, ridiculous, or feel railroaded if the GMs build knowledge can't or doesn't match the players build knowledge. If your DMPC can curb-stomp the entire party... railroaded. If your level 3 pc's can one-hit the BBEG... tedious. If everyone is so cheesed out that the group can't help but wonder why the players and BBEG aren't just gods by now... ridiculous (Pun-Pun comes to mind).

That said: (no need to read because this wasn't the subject)
I find the best campaigns (definition: the ones I had the most fun in) are ones with reasonable build restrictions to protect game balance. Vetoing OP characters, and helping to optimize poorly build ones so that the game runs smoothly is also a plus in my book. If the characters are designed well, they will have a healthy compliment of strength and weaknesses that are easy for the DM to make them most use of to achieve maximum thrills (from elation of victory, to fear of death, to everything in between and beyond if possible).

[TuggyNE]

The interpretation Evolved Shrimp is referring to isn't "You changed into a zodar that has a wish the first time, but the second time you changed into a different one that doesn't have a wish". It's that, both times, the zodar is you. The second time you don't get a wish, because you are the zodar, and you've already used your wish.

"No, Tippy, you are the zodars." And then Tippy was a shadesteel golem. Without Rudimentary Intelligence! *le gasp*

[The Oni]

Ok. So, there is justification for absolute GM fiat if all else fails.

When I GM, I want to give my players as much freedom as I possibly can. If that makes them broken, I'll just break the monsters more - but, Emerald Legion and WatW seem almost Pun-Punesque in their game-breaking glory. At that point it may just have to be "God says no."

[Aegis013]

"No, Tippy, you are the zodars." And then Tippy was a shadesteel golem. Without Rudimentary Intelligence! *le gasp*

I lol'd.

If the GM/DM adheres to RAW (no fiat) with no homebrew, the player can do it.
If the DM can use his mighty handwavium, then the point is moot, since, you know, rocks fall and the rest.

[Gemini476]

I lol'd.

If the GM/DM adheres to RAW (no fiat) with no homebrew, the player can do it.
If the DM can use his mighty handwavium, then the point is moot, since, you know, rocks fall and the rest.

Using RAW (no fiat), Pandorym is the Rocks that Fall. He's like the Lady of Pain or WoD's Cain, in that he is unstatted and therefore unbeatable. In contrast with those two, he is also a malevolent force who will destroy the entire Great Wheel once he escapes.

There's Handwavium built into the system.

[Aegis013]

Using RAW (no fiat), Pandorym is the Rocks that Fall. He's like the Lady of Pain or WoD's Cain, in that he is unstatted and therefore unbeatable. In contrast with those two, he is also a malevolent force who will destroy the entire Great Wheel once he escapes.

There's Handwavium built into the system.

Well, if you're talking about his Mind Shard merged with his Sphere of Annihilation Body, there are no rules for such a thing, so using it for an encounter would be homebrew.

If you're talking about his Sphere of Annihilation Body, it doesn't destroy deities, so it isn't going to work on the player character, who most likely will have sufficient divine ranks to be a great deity.

Plus, the PC can probably output enough gates to send the Sphere body back to prison, no problem. Or just use the Salient Divine Ability: Alter Reality and make it so.

[NichG]

As an example, how would you do this to a character that has the Invulnerability of a Zodar (Fiend Folio) and the Blunt Weapon Immunity of an Ocean Giant (MMII)?

Lets see, all's fair as long as I use published material right, even if its 3rd party splatbooks? So you could use something from Immortals Handbook with one of those 'negate your opponent's N most significant abilities' powers.

Of course then for the sake of this exercise, you have to give the player character 'Abrogate' and all the rest of that stuff as well, so its probably a wash.

[Deox]

No - again, the DM makes all rules, so each game is essentially homebrew.

Everything printed is merely a set of guidelines.