Which 10 Core spells would you ban?

[johnbragg]

I'd like to fix Core, just because Core is the common language of D&D.
I don't want to do a wholesale rewrite, because that's more work than I want to do, and it means the players have to learn a new game, which hasn't been playtested at all.

"Core is broken", say many, for a few different reasons, but one of which is the existence of break-the-game spells. Some popular candidates are the polymorph chain, the teleport spells, planar binding/gate. Fabricate also gets some detractors.

So, if you were to pick 10 PHB spells to ban (or severely houserule), what would they be?

[nedz]

I'm not sure all of these are core, and there are several others which I would nerf


Astral Projection
Enhance Wild Shape
Foresight
Ice Assassin
Invoke Magic
Nerveskitter
Polymorph
Shapechange
Shivering Touch
Wraithstrike


Also:

Action economy inflation spells other than Haste Eg Celerity, Arcane Fusion (et al), Timestop
Calling spells may not coerce called creatures.
Enhance Wild Shape, Polymorph and Shapechange are deprecated; Alterself and any specific form spells may be used. Alterself only works on humanoids.
Freedom of Movement grants a +CL (20 max) bonus to escape or avoid grapples but doesn't make you immune.
Multiple Explosive Runes damage overlaps and does not stack
Glitterdust is bumped to level 3 and the Blindness lasts 1 round.
Simulacrum creates creatures without Su, Sp, or spellcasting abilities.
Rope Trick has a duration of 10 minutes per CL
Spells which buff a skill are capped at +1 per caster level, e.g. Glibness
The interpretation of Wish etc. may depend upon who grants it, or even where it is cast.
Venomfire capped at 5d6
Streamers damage is 5d4, one time only
Ray of stupidity Int penalty not damage. Cannot lower Int below 1
Arcane Lock increases the DC of a lock by CL against Open lock; or creates a lock with 5+CL DC
Knock either grants CL competence bonus to unlock a door, or gives you 5+CL Open Lock to open a lock. It also counts as a suitable tool.
Freedom of Movement grants a +CL (max 20) bonus to escape or avoid grapples
Mage Armour is an Abjuration.
Conjurations, e.g. Orb of X spells, do not work in an anti magic zone
Detect Good/Evil/etc. Produce no reading on non aura characters below level 4.

[Emperor Tippy]

The 10 most powerful are Wish, Shapechange, Gate, Planar Binding (all three), Astral Projection, Simulacrum, Miracle, and Polymorph Any Object.

That isn't to say that they are the ten I would ban in general.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm not sure all of these are core, and there are several others which I would nerf


Astral Projection
Enhance Wild Shape
Foresight
Ice Assassin
Invoke Magic
Nerveskitter
Polymorph
Shapechange
Shivering Touch
Wraithstrike


Also: Action economy inflation spells other than Haste Eg Celerity, Arcane Fusion (et al), Timestop

Only the bold spells are actually core.

[nedz]

Only the bold spells are actually core.

So 4 then, though a few more are covered in the general clauses below. e.g. Timestop.

Maybe I need to think about PaO ?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the double casting which leads to the exploits.

[johnbragg]

The 10 most powerful are Wish, Shapechange, Gate, Planar Binding (all three), Astral Projection, Simulacrum, Miracle, and Polymorph Any Object.

That isn't to say that they are the ten I would ban in general.

Does that mean there are others you would rather ban, or are you dissenting from the "ban 10 spells" project as a whole?

Also, Astral Projection keeps popping up, and not Plane Shift. AP is 9th level, and has way more limitations than Plane Shift, the way I see it.

IS there a way to break-the-game with Astral Projection that Plane Shift couldn't do a lot faster? Not to mention that Plane Shift can be used as an offensive "Save-or-lose" spell? (Sure, AP means you go do whatever while your body is safe and sound, but if you're casting 9th level wizard spells you have Contingencies for that.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

IS there a way to break-the-game with Astral Projection that Plane Shift couldn't do a lot faster?


You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.
Emphasis mine. You create backup bodies, complete with all your hundreds of thousands of gold worth of equipment. That body can then cast plane shift and go adventure without you. But don't worry!


If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation.
There are no penalties if you're killed!

[nedz]

Plane Shift is just transport. Astral Projection is Save Game and go.

[johnbragg]

Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
IS there a way to break-the-game with Astral Projection that Plane Shift couldn't do a lot faster?


Emphasis mine. You create backup bodies, complete with all your hundreds of thousands of gold worth of equipment. That body can then cast plane shift and go adventure without you. But don't worry!

There are no penalties if you're killed!

Thanks Grod. But isn't plane shift still the problem? Without Plane Shift, you Astral Project to some plane which isn't your primary focus. Sure, you're the functional equivalent of a lich there, since you're a level 18+ arcane caster who can't be killed except by destroying a physical object which is located on some other plane. But aren't 9th level spells supposed to give near-godlike powers?

It takes Astral Projection plus Plane Shift to run the exploit. Without Plane Shift, to run that same scam, you have to get someone else on Plane X to magic you to Plane X, then cast Astral Projection from that plane to the Prime Material Plane. Which leads to the question, how do you magic someone from the PM Plane to Plane X, and most of those answers (Planar Ally, Planar Binding, Gate) are on the leaderboard for "10 Spells to Ban."

[nedz]

Thanks Grod. But isn't plane shift still the problem? Without Plane Shift, you Astral Project to some plane which isn't your primary focus. Sure, you're the functional equivalent of a lich there, since you're a level 18+ arcane caster who can't be killed except by destroying a physical object which is located on some other plane. But aren't 9th level spells supposed to give near-godlike powers?

It takes Astral Projection plus Plane Shift to run the exploit. Without Plane Shift, to run that same scam, you have to get someone else on Plane X to magic you to Plane X, then cast Astral Projection from that plane to the Prime Material Plane. Which leads to the question, how do you magic someone from the PM Plane to Plane X, and most of those answers (Planar Ally, Planar Binding, Gate) are on the leaderboard for "10 Spells to Ban."

Some DMs ban planar travel on a setting basis rather than a rules exploit basis, unless they are banning Teleport also.

Most of the exploits around Planar Ally, Planar Binding, Gate, etc. are caused by those spells ability to coerce called creatures. Hence my Calling spells may not coerce called creatures rule. Negotiation and Roleplay with outsiders is fine IMHO, YMMV.

[Psyren]

By strict RAW, Astral Projection can only be done from the material plane, so it's not like you can hide your body on your Super Happy Funtime Demiplane of Invincibility - you need to stash it somewhere on the material, which requires a lot more precautions and still leaves you vulnerable.

AP is fine for a 9th-level spell if you ask me. Sure it duplicates you and your equipment but (a) having a "save-game" is almost mandatory for adventuring at that level anyway, and (b) there are still dangers you have to watch out for, namely stuff that goes after your helpless body, and silver swords.

[_Jarlaxle_]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the double casting which leads to the exploits.
Imo the cast it double to make it permanent is only an interpretion of what the rules say and could also interpreted diffrently. For example casting it twice could only double the duration because if the first instance wears off the second instance is not permanent anymore but has the same duration as the first now.

[Emperor Tippy]

Does that mean there are others you would rather ban, or are you dissenting from the "ban 10 spells" project as a whole?

The first. If you want to ban spells for a game then that isn't my concern. Hell, I do it on a number of occasions and have even posted what I would ban in core and my general criteria when I feel like banning stuff on these forums before.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241019


Also, Astral Projection keeps popping up, and not Plane Shift. AP is 9th level, and has way more limitations than Plane Shift, the way I see it.

IS there a way to break-the-game with Astral Projection that Plane Shift couldn't do a lot faster? Not to mention that Plane Shift can be used as an offensive "Save-or-lose" spell? (Sure, AP means you go do whatever while your body is safe and sound, but if you're casting 9th level wizard spells you have Contingencies for that.)

Astral Projection lets you copy every single item that you have on your body at the time for free. Buy one Tome of Int +5, use Astral Projection 5 times, have the whole party use the free copies, sell the original and one of the copies and the whole party got the +5 inherent bonus for free.

And technically the copies don't go away when you dismiss the Astral Projection, so unlimited GP and magic items.

Astral Projection isn't broken because of the planar travel or even because of the "adventuring while your real body stays safe" bit, its broken because of the unlimited magic items for free.

[Waker]

A few of the big offenders have already been mentioned, but I'll mention some of mine.
Wish/Miracle-Banned. I don't feel like getting into a legalese discussion when I'm playing a game.
Teleport line- I houserule it that there are specific locations that you teleport to, as well as increase the casting time to 10 minutes.
Raise Dead line- I houserule these spells as rituals requiring some special actions and rare items, rather than "I'll bring him back from the dead after I take a nap."
Rope Trick- I houserule it to be a 4th level spell. I dislike having low level casters creating a pocket dimension so that they can take a nap.

nedz already mentioned the houserule I use for FoM, Knock, though I also extend it to True Seeing and Mind Blank, since I don't like instant-win spells.

[Psyren]

Good point on consumables Tippy, that's definitely something that needs to be altered concerning AP.

[johnbragg]

Ok, 9th-level spells aside, and extraplanar-lottery-tickets aside, what else should be considered? (For my own purposes, I have other ways of limiting sky-high level spells)

Teleports, fabricate, polymorphs? Anything else that should be considered?

EDIT: Thanks for the thread, Tippy.

I have the same houserule idea for polymorph--a 3rd level spell to turn into one particular animal/vermin shape (common fantasy trope of the witch/wizard turning into a cat/bat/mouse/raven/spider) , a higher-level spell to turn into one specific, customizable monsterform (see the evil queen from Sleeping Beauty turning into a dragon.)

[nedz]

I have the same houserule idea for polymorph--a 3rd level spell to turn into one particular animal/vermin shape (common fantasy trope of the witch/wizard turning into a cat/bat/mouse/raven/spider) , a higher-level spell to turn into one specific, customizable monsterform (see the evil queen from Sleeping Beauty turning into a dragon.)

Look at the Bite of X spells in the SpC, or port the PF versions of Polymorph across (they are available online via OGL)

[Radar]

By strict RAW, Astral Projection can only be done from the material plane, so it's not like you can hide your body on your Super Happy Funtime Demiplane of Invincibility - you need to stash it somewhere on the material, which requires a lot more precautions and still leaves you vulnerable.

AP is fine for a 9th-level spell if you ask me. Sure it duplicates you and your equipment but (a) having a "save-game" is almost mandatory for adventuring at that level anyway, and (b) there are still dangers you have to watch out for, namely stuff that goes after your helpless body, and silver swords.
Nothing prevents you from staching your body on a different plane after you cast AP.

My list of spells which need a serious re-write:
- Polymorph line (including Shapechange)
- Call Planar Ally/Planar Binding line (including Gate)
- Disjunction (currently it's a nuclear weapon and as such unusable - the only way to tame it is to take Relicguard feat)
- Control Winds (much too powerful for its level)
- Control Weather (needs clarification on the limitations and is a bit too much of a mass destruction weapon anyway)

[Fax Celestis]

RE: Rope trick: I generally alter the spell's duration to "10 minutes/level" instead of "1 hour/level", which changes it from a resting place to a hiding place.

[NichG]

There's a set I'd call the 'destabilizing spells' which are specifically those spells that let you create engines of infinite wealth, xp, items, wishes, what-have-you.

I think its covered by the following spells in Core: Gate, Wish, Miracle, Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, Wall of Iron, Astral Projection

Any others I'm missing of that sort? You might have to add Planar Binding but I'm not sure that Planar Binding actually gets to the point where it cascades (e.g. you can get >1 casting of planar binding for each casting of planar binding you perform)

Personally though, what I choose to ban depends a lot more on the players I'm playing with than any RAW/TO considerations. Most players won't use Wall of Iron to generate money, but if I'm playing with someone who goes for that kind of thing I'd be sure to add it to the ban list.

Things like Find the Path and other 'bypass' style divinations bother me more. Its one thing to get useful information from a divination that you can use to figure out stuff, but its another to basically be able to say 'I follow the marker and do what it says' without having to actually engage with the adventure.

Out of core, Circle Dance gets a ban from me for being a totally unblockable divination (because it affects the caster, not the target). Surge of Fortune is pretty bad for being able to grant natural 20s on command. I also tend to dislike the 'skill investment replacement' spells like Divine Insight, since they tend to destroy niches in the group.

[Psyren]

Things like Find the Path and other 'bypass' style divinations bother me more. Its one thing to get useful information from a divination that you can use to figure out stuff, but its another to basically be able to say 'I follow the marker and do what it says' without having to actually engage with the adventure.

I don't think that's necessarily accurate. It shows you the shortest route, but that may not be the easiest or safest route. It specifically doesn't account for creatures for instance. Find the Path might lead you into Mordor over the mountains, but it won't tell you the route leads through Shelob's lair.

[johnbragg]

I don't think that's necessarily accurate. It shows you the shortest route, but that may not be the easiest or safest route. It specifically doesn't account for creatures for instance. Find the Path might lead you into Mordor over the mountains, but it won't tell you the route leads through Shelob's lair.

I think the "shortest route" is in through the gate, past the guards.

[Fax Celestis]

I think the "shortest route" is in through the gate, past the guards.

It's only shortest that way because you die in the entrance.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm not sure all of these are core, and there are several others which I would nerf


Astral Projection
Enhance Wild Shape
Foresight
Ice Assassin
Invoke Magic
Nerveskitter
Polymorph
Shapechange
Shivering Touch
Wraithstrike


Also:

Action economy inflation spells other than Haste Eg Celerity, Arcane Fusion (et al), Timestop
Calling spells may not coerce called creatures.
Enhance Wild Shape, Polymorph and Shapechange are deprecated; Alterself and any specific form spells may be used. Alterself only works on humanoids.
Freedom of Movement grants a +CL (20 max) bonus to escape or avoid grapples but doesn't make you immune.
Multiple Explosive Runes damage overlaps and does not stack
Glitterdust is bumped to level 3 and the Blindness lasts 1 round.
Simulacrum creates creatures without Su, Sp, or spellcasting abilities.
Rope Trick has a duration of 10 minutes per CL
Spells which buff a skill are capped at +1 per caster level, e.g. Glibness
The interpretation of Wish etc. may depend upon who grants it, or even where it is cast.
Venomfire capped at 5d6
Streamers damage is 5d4, one time only
Ray of stupidity Int penalty not damage. Cannot lower Int below 1
Arcane Lock increases the DC of a lock by CL against Open lock; or creates a lock with 5+CL DC
Knock either grants CL competence bonus to unlock a door, or gives you 5+CL Open Lock to open a lock. It also counts as a suitable tool.
Freedom of Movement grants a +CL (max 20) bonus to escape or avoid grapples
Mage Armour is an Abjuration.
Conjurations, e.g. Orb of X spells, do not work in an anti magic zone
Detect Good/Evil/etc. Produce no reading on non aura characters below level 4.


And any / all divination spells which involve other beings, e.g., "Contact Other Plane", rely upon the caster being in good standing with the residents of at least one plane. Not so hard for clerics, but may pose a problem for some wizards: "Why should I, resident of the plane of chaotic neutral, tell YOU anything, wizard"?

[johnbragg]

And any / all divination spells which involve other beings, e.g., "Contact Other Plane", rely upon the caster being in good standing with the residents of at least one plane. Not so hard for clerics, but may pose a problem for some wizards: "Why should I, resident of the plane of chaotic neutral, tell YOU anything, wizard"?

That's a very fair question. To be fair to players, clue them in on that reality, so that they can prepare an answer.

I'd say the conversation with the Outsider is something to roleplay--the spell just allows the contact, the diplomacy(mancy) is up to the PCs. YMMV.

[nedz]

And any / all divination spells which involve other beings, e.g., "Contact Other Plane", rely upon the caster being in good standing with the residents of at least one plane. Not so hard for clerics, but may pose a problem for some wizards: "Why should I, resident of the plane of chaotic neutral, tell YOU anything, wizard"?


That's a very fair question. To be fair to players, clue them in on that reality, so that they can prepare an answer.

I'd say the conversation with the Outsider is something to roleplay--the spell just allows the contact, the diplomacy(mancy) is up to the PCs. YMMV.

Agreed, but that's outside the purview of houserules IMHO — YMMV

[StreamOfTheSky]

Mage's Disjunction
Shapechange
Feeblemind
*Alter Self (only if non-core monsters are available)
Enervation
Polymorph Any Object
Find the Path
True Ressurection
Fabricate
Miracle (at least Wish is always costly...as a spell. Not from a noble genie)
EDIT: Screw the rules. Gate really belongs up here, too.

*Greater Scrying, if Alter Self is limited to core monsters

I never get all the hate for actual Polymorph spell. It's not nearly as imbalanced for its level as its brethren (Shapechange and PAO being OP for ANY level, though), and unlike most of them...you can use it to buff other people. I always prefer spells that you can selflessly give to friends rather than selfishly hog for yourself only.

[Devronq]

Wish/limited wish/miracle
Gate
Planar binding (all)
Polymorph
Polymorph any object
Shapechange
Astral projection
Magic jar
Alter self- not banned could use some changes
Scrying/ teleport- not banned could use some changes

Really rewrites rather than bans would be better im doing a full game rewrite

[Amphetryon]

I'd ban Alter Self, and all spells that reference back to it, were I to take the OP's approach.

[johnbragg]

RE: Contact Other Plane. You're right. I hadn't read the spell in a long time--it's not a voluntary conversation on the outsider's part.


Mage's Disjunction
Feeblemind
*Alter Self (only if non-core monsters are available)
Enervation
Find the Path
Fabricate

Enervation? Really? It's a ranged touch attack--so it's possible to miss, unlikely of course--and it's No Save, Suck A Little Bit, -1d4 to everything, lose your next spell. Great for environments where everything has big saving throw bonuses.

Feeblemind is powerful. But 5th level is well into SAve or Lose territory.


I never get all the hate for actual Polymorph spell

Mainly, it lets the caster take over melee duties by choosing the right form. And there is an entire shelf full of books to pick forms from. Using the same spell. I don't think any DM who nukes Polymorph would begrudge a spell chain
3. Assume Viper Form
4. Friend-to-Viper
5. Enemy-to-Viper.
6. Assume 12HD Homebrewed Dragonoid Form


Magic Jar
Good catch. PRobably shouldn't be a spell so much as a sort-of-undead creature. It would probably be used and abused more if people understood it.


im doing a full game rewrite

I'm not, though. I'd like to come up with a one- or two-page document you could hand to players and say "It's core 3.5, except for this." I'm 40 years old, my contemporaries have played D&D and maybe I could get them back in. But they don't know from Tome of Battle, or from my 20 page homebrew.

[Emperor Tippy]

For me it's not a real question of the spells power, its a question of how versatile the spell is.

The problem with the Polymorph line, the various methods of calling, Simulacrum and Ice Assassin, etc. isn't that they are powerful, it's that they are pretty much impossible to predict. Each one of those spells lets the user pick up pretty much any ability in the entire game on short notice and with minimal cost.

A level 17+ spell caster can become a Great Wyrm Red Dragon with all of the attendant abilities except the Sorcerer spell casting? That's a nice spell even though it is quite powerful but it's not difficult to DM for.

Why? Because all said spell lets you do is turn into a Great Wyrm Red Dragon (or maybe a Red Dragon with age category dependent upon CL) and dragons are relatively easy to DM against. You can plan around the Dragon.

What you can't plan around is when the PC can say as a free action once per round "I'm a golem. I'm a Solar. I'm a Pit Fiend. I'm a Wraith. I'm a Dragon. I'm any of the thousand other monsters that WotC has published."

Shapechange can always give you the perfect tool for any challenge with the only real issue being the practical fact that the players only know of and remember a limited number of forms so they very rarely use the spell to its potential.

Time Stop? It's unquestionably powerful and may well even be significantly more powerful than the DM wants that game to be but it isn't broken and it can be worked around and accounted for.

Foresight+Celerity? It's quite powerful but again it can be worked around and accounted for. Little things like a Craft Contingent Timeless Body set to trigger when someone attacks you before you get to act in combat.

The spells that are broken in that they are badly designed and written are the ones that can't really be accounted for because of the sheer versatility and variability of them.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Enervation? Really? It's a ranged touch attack--so it's possible to miss, unlikely of course--and it's No Save, Suck A Little Bit, -1d4 to everything, lose your next spell. Great for environments where every #$%#$% thing has big saving throw bonuses.

Yes, really. The reason it's a problem and Energy Drain is not is largely how low level it is for the comparative benefit (1d4 for 4th level vs. 2d4 for 9th level, and spell levels grow in power exponentially!) and how much earlier you get it. And the low level means you can metamagic (feats and/or rods) the balls off of it / empower and split ray and quicken and such. 1d4 alone might not be so bad, but the fact you can spam it over and over and over (aka, the Xykon tactic) means it can easily cause some real damage without ever allowing a save. It's mainly deadly to casters, who are the actual threats anyway. Losing 8 caster levels in a single round is a pretty big deal.


Feeblemind is powerful. But 5th level is well into SAve or Lose territory..

Feeblemind is a lot more devastating than save or lose. It will take you out of many, many fights before it can get cured. Literal instant death is often easier to fix.


Mainly, it lets the caster take over melee duties by choosing the right form..

Except it doesn't. You're still saddled with the same d4 HD chasis. I used to try and go Rambo with Polymorph on my caster. It didn't end well... Even if you DO buff the bejesus out of yourself to shore up defenses and truly replace the party tank... You get to be the Big Stupid Fighter! Congratulations? That's totally what you went to school for? It just makes more sense to give str 30 and pounce to the guy who already has full BAB and d10 HD. The caster might scrape by doing it, but the party meat shield is still the optimal target.

And yeah, Magic Jar is a good catch. I forgot how broken that one was.


For me it's not a real question of the spells power, its a question of how versatile the spell is.

The problem with the Polymorph line, the various methods of calling, Simulacrum and Ice Assassin, etc. isn't that they are powerful, it's that they are pretty much impossible to predict. Each one of those spells lets the user pick up pretty much any ability in the entire game on short notice and with minimal cost.

A level 17+ spell caster can become a Great Wyrm Red Dragon with all of the attendant abilities except the Sorcerer spell casting? That's a nice spell even though it is quite powerful but it's not difficult to DM for.

Why? Because all said spell lets you do is turn into a Great Wyrm Red Dragon (or maybe a Red Dragon with age category dependent upon CL) and dragons are relatively easy to DM against. You can plan around the Dragon.

What you can't plan around is when the PC can say as a free action once per round "I'm a golem. I'm a Solar. I'm a Pit Fiend. I'm a Wraith. I'm a Dragon. I'm any of the thousand other monsters that WotC has published."

Shapechange can always give you the perfect tool for any challenge with the only real issue being the practical fact that the players only know of and remember a limited number of forms so they very rarely use the spell to its potential.

I totally agree, Shapechange is insane. I'm talking about the base polymorph spell. The one that's not self-only. The one that doesn't let you go incorporeal or other odd creature types, or change forms every round, nor lasts for hours. The one that doesn't give Su abilities, nor qualities of any kind.

You get Ex attacks, movement modes, and natural attacks/armor, and that's about it. Yes, there's a few outliers that have potent attacks that should probably be Su, like the Cloaker. But it's nor nearly as abusive, even if it gives lots of options. But you can literally count on your hands the number of truly abusive options Polymorph makes available, it's not that hard to handle...

[Fax Celestis]

Yes, really. The reason it's a problem and Energy Drain is not is largely how low level it is for the comparative benefit (1d4 for 4th level vs. 2d4 for 9th level, and spell levels grow in power exponentially!) and how much earlier you get it. And the low level means you can metamagic (feats and/or rods) the balls off of it / empower and split ray and quicken and such. 1d4 alone might not be so bad, but the fact you can spam it over and over and over (aka, the Xykon tactic) means it can easily cause some real damage without ever allowing a save. It's mainly deadly to casters, who are the actual threats anyway. Losing 8 caster levels in a single round is a pretty big deal.

Plus, as a ray spell, it can crit, which makes its negative levels really swingy.

[NichG]

I don't think that's necessarily accurate. It shows you the shortest route, but that may not be the easiest or safest route. It specifically doesn't account for creatures for instance. Find the Path might lead you into Mordor over the mountains, but it won't tell you the route leads through Shelob's lair.

Oh, it certainly doesn't make it impossible to challenge the party, but I personally find it one of the more annoying types of things to 'DM around', because I tend to prefer running figuring-stuff-out/exploration style games over combat-heavy stuff.

There's also a lot of shenanigans with Find the Path, e.g. 'Find the Path' to the point inside this safe you're looking at gives you the combination, and so on.

[Blisstake]

Gate
Planar Ally/Binding
Teleport
Dimension Door
Polymorph Any Object
Plane Shift
Commune
True Ressurection
Scrying
Time Stop

[Psyren]

Oh, it certainly doesn't make it impossible to challenge the party, but I personally find it one of the more annoying types of things to 'DM around', because I tend to prefer running figuring-stuff-out/exploration style games over combat-heavy stuff.

Unmodified D&D is really aimed at "kick-in-the-door" style though. Modifying the game to fit a more subtle or slower campaign should be a baseline expectation at that point. In other words, you can run a more investigative, exploration-heavy D&D campaign but you should be going in expecting to ban or alter certain spells to do it from the very beginning.



There's also a lot of shenanigans with Find the Path, e.g. 'Find the Path' to the point inside this safe you're looking at gives you the combination, and so on.

Not necessarily; the spell says you "sense" the right answer. What I take this to mean is that they get a hint, or that the spell is able to prompt them in some way or make certain clues more obvious to the caster. Not that it always drops the right answer straight into their head. Similarly, you "sense" traps like tripwires, but it doesn't necessarily pinpoint them for you.

If I were running it I would say something like "you sense that it'd be a pretty good idea to concentrate your search in the four squares immediately in front of you" or "you sense that the glyph is attuned to a single word in draconic. Your mind fills with images of roaring infernos and conflagrations."

[Jon_Dahl]

Detect Evil
Detect Good
Scrying
Charm Person (other charm spells may remain)
Gate
Miracle
Wish
Polymorph
Polymorph Any Object
Entangle

I just don't like those spells and I have had bad experience with them. I'd be happy to see them gone.

[NichG]

Unmodified D&D is really aimed at "kick-in-the-door" style though. Modifying the game to fit a more subtle or slower campaign should be a baseline expectation at that point. In other words, you can run a more investigative, exploration-heavy D&D campaign but you should be going in expecting to ban or alter certain spells to do it from the very beginning.


Yes, thus why I separated my personal list of 'these spells are problematic' from a list of spells which will generally create problems for the game as a whole (the 'destabilizing list' I posted).



Not necessarily; the spell says you "sense" the right answer. What I take this to mean is that they get a hint, or that the spell is able to prompt them in some way or make certain clues more obvious to the caster. Not that it always drops the right answer straight into their head. Similarly, you "sense" traps like tripwires, but it doesn't necessarily pinpoint them for you.


While I wholeheartedly agree with this kind of approach to the spell, sadly I don't think its actually borne out by the RAW. The example in the rules text is knowing 'the proper word to bypass a glyph of warding', which is pretty distinct from 'you get a puzzle whose solution is the word to bypass the glyph' or other more oblique ways of giving over the information.



If I were running it I would say something like "you sense that it'd be a pretty good idea to concentrate your search in the four squares immediately in front of you" or "you sense that the glyph is attuned to a single word in draconic. Your mind fills with images of roaring infernos and conflagrations."

I do like this way of running the spell, and would use it or something like it in my own campaigns, but for the sake of the OP's request (what spells would you ban or house rule) I do believe this counts as a (very reasonable) house rule.