[3.5] [ToB] [MoI] [BBQ] The MechaSmackDragon

[Red Fel]

That's right, it's time for yet another "please help me build" thread.

The concept in this thread is a Dragonborn Warforged with Totemist and Swordsage levels. The Swordsage levels will be using the Unarmed variant, which I am taking to mean that (1) the build receives Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, (2) the Swordsage may use lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, (3) unarmed attacks are treated as both natural and manufactured weapons, and (4) she uses the unarmed damage progression table from the Monk listing. I figure on no more than 6 Totemist levels, but possibly less, in order to maximize Maneuver levels. Ideally the build would be limited to these two classes, because I prefer simplicity, but I am open to other ideas.

I am aware that Warforged lose their slam attack by taking Dragonborn. I am also aware that the Wis penalty hurts Warforged Swordsages. Don't care.

I am also aware that, while unarmed Swordsage loses light armor proficiency, Warforged are always proficient with their plating. Thus, as long as the plating counts as light armor, Swordsage keeps those features requiring it. I think that Mithral Body is an excellent first-level feat for this reason; absent taking feat-based plating, composite plating is lost due to Dragonborn.

I am inclined to take the Wings aspect of Dragonborn with this build, but I'm open to the Mind aspect. Additionally, if Dragonborn is taken at third level instead of first, I like the idea of taking Mithral Body at first level, and Dragon Tail at third, adding a natural attack. However, since the build is Totemist and Totemists can gain extra attacks separately, the tail is not required.

The Necklace of Natural Weapons is a given, although I am curious what you would put on it.

I am familiar with the King of Smack and similar builds; this runs in a like vein. The goal is to create a Dragonborn Warforged with lots of unarmed/natural strikes that pile up.

One vital note: I have never played an effective unarmed striker before. Nor has anybody taken me aside and spelled it out for me. The books can only explain so much. So when you offer advice on stacking lots of attacks, I would appreciate if you could explain, mechanically, how it functions.

Thank you. Pick up your pencils and begin.

UPDATE: Thanks to some excellent contributors, I've gotten some extremely solid guidance on this build. Behold its glory within the spoiler tags. Special thanks to Big Fau, Gigas Breaker, Piggy Knowles and Urpriest.

Guf, CG Dragonborn Warforged

Levels:
{table=head]{colsp=11}Class Progression

Level | Classes|
BAB |
Fort |
Ref |
Will |Special |Maneuvers Known |Maneuvers Readied |Stances Known|Feat

1st | Warblade 1|
1 |
2 |
0 |
0 | Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves), Weapon Aptitude |
3 |
3 |
1 | Improved Unarmed Strike

2nd | Warblade 1/ Totemist 1|
1 |
4 |
2 |
0 | Wild Empathy|
3 |
3 |
1 |

3rd | Warblade 1/ Totemist 2|
2 |
5 |
3 |
0 |Totem Chakra Bind (+1 capacity)|
3 |
3 |
1 | Multiattack

4th | Warblade 2/ Totemist 2|
3 |
6 |
3 |
0 | Uncanny Dodge|
4 |
3 |
1 |

5th | Warblade 3/ Totemist 2|
4 |
6 |
4 |
1 | Battle Ardor (critical confirmation)|
5 |
3 |
1 |

6th | Warblade 4/ Totemist 2|
5 |
7 |
4 |
1 | |
5 |
4 |
2 | Jaws of Death

7th | Warblade 5/ Totemist 2|
6 |
7 |
4 |
1 |Bonus Feat |
6 |
4 |
2 | Ironheart Aura

8th | Warblade 6/ Totemist 2|
7 |
8 |
5 |
2 |Improved Uncanny Dodge |
6 |
4 |
2 |

9th | Warblade 6/ Totemist 3|
8 |
8 |
5 |
3 |Totem's Protection |
6 |
4 |
2 | Stormguard Warrior

10th | Warblade 6/ Totemist 4|
9 |
9 |
6 |
3 | |
6 |
4 |
2 |

11th | Warblade 6/ Totemist 5|
9 |
9 |
6 |
3 |Chakra Binds (crown, feet, hands) |
6 |
4 |
2 |

12th | Warblade 6/ Totemist 6|
10 |
10 |
7 |
4 |Totem Chakra Bind (+1 meldshaper level) |
6 |
4 |
2 | Snap Kick

13th |Warblade 7/ Totemist 6|
11 |
10 |
7 |
4 |Battle Cunning (damage) |
7 |
4 |
2 |

14th | Warblade 8/ Totemist 6|
12 |
11 |
7 |
4 | |
7 |
4 |
2 |

15th | Warblade 9/ Totemist 6|
13 |
11 |
8 |
5 |Bonus Feat |
8 |
4 |
2 | Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit

16th | Warblade 10/ Totemist 6|
14 |
12 |
8 |
5 | |
8 |
5 |
3 |

17th | Warblade 11/ Totemist 6|
15 |
12 |
8 |
5 |Battle Skill (opposed checks) |
9 |
5 |
3 |

18th | Warblade 12/ Totemist 6|
16 |
13 |
9 |
6 | |
9 |
5 |
3 | Superior Unarmed Strike

19th | Warblade 13/ Totemist 6|
17 |
13 |
9 |
6 |Bonus Feat |
10 |
5 |
3 | Improved Initiative

20th | Warblade 14/ Totemist 6|
18 |
14 |
9 |
6 | |
10 |
5 |
3 |
[/table]

Maneuvers Chosen:

{table=head]{colsp=5}Maneuvers and Stances

Level | Warblade Level| Initiator Level| Maneuvers| Stances

1st| Warblade 1| 1| Moment of Perfect Mind, Sudden Leap, Douse the Flames| Punishing Stance
4th| Warblade 2| 3| Action Before Thought|
5th| Warblade 3| 4| Wall of Blades|
6th| Warblade 4| 5| | Absolute Steel Stance
7th| Warblade 5| 6| White Raven Tactics|
8th| Warblade 6| 7| |
13th| Warblade 7| 10| Iron Heart Surge|
14th| Warblade 8| 11| |
15th| Warblade 9| 12| War Leader's Charge|
16th| Warblade 10| 13| | Hearing the Air
17th| Warblade 11| 14| Quicksilver Motion|
18th| Warblade 12| 15| |
19th| Warblade 13| 16| Diamond Defense|
20th| Warblade 14| 17| |
[/table]

{table=head]{colsp=4}Maneuvers Exchanged

Level | Warblade Level| Maneuver Lost| Maneuver Gained

6th| Warblade 4| |

8th| Warblade 6| |

14th| Warblade 8| |

16th| Warblade 10| |

18th| Warblade 12| |

20th| Warblade 14| Diamond Defense| Time Stands Still
[/table]

I'll have to double-check, but I think I've met all prerequisites. I might do some maneuver-swaps, if I decide to take the Mongoose maneuvers.


Alternate Feat Progression:
The above build assumes that I skip Mithral Body, thus losing use of my composite plating. If instead I took Mithral Body, my feats would be as follows:

{table=head]{colsp=2}Feats

Level | Feat

1st | Mithral Body

3rd | Improved Unarmed Strike

6th | Multiattack

7th | Ironheart Aura

9th | Stormguard Warrior

12th | Snap Kick

15th | Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit

18th | Superior Unarmed Strike OR Jaws of Death

19th | Improved Initiative[/table]

Basically, this build forces me to choose between a bite attack and upgraded unarmed strikes.



Additional Gear:
- Fanged Ring
- Incarnum Focus gloves
- Monk's Belt
- Necklace of Natural Weapons



The above tables are complete. Comments are welcomed.

[Gigas Breaker]

You'll probably want to full attack all the time so focus on counters and boosts as far as maneuvers go. The mongoose line, save replacers, maybe some desert wind, etc. The shadow hand teleports are great and time stands still will be insane.

[Red Fel]

I can see the practicality there. Disappointing, but if I'm going to be built around making lots of attacks, I suppose I can't use Strikes which would limit me to just one.

You're absolutely right about Time Stands Still though. Two full attacks, with a whole swarm of natural weapons? Kind of brutal.

[Big Fau]

For BAB purposes I recommend only going Totemist 4. Your meldshaping won't be that good, but you'll be hitting things.

I also have to caution you about mixing unarmed strikes and natural weapons: It doesn't always work. Claws in particular. You're also taking massive penalties, even with Multiattack and Improved Multiattack. It may be more worthwhile to focus on either natural weapons only (using normal Swordsage), or to focus on unarmed combat only (and use your Meldshaping for buffs). The former would make best use of Boosts, while the latter would get more mileage from Strikes.

[Red Fel]

For BAB purposes I recommend only going Totemist 4. Your meldshaping won't be that good, but you'll be hitting things.

I also have to caution you about mixing unarmed strikes and natural weapons: It doesn't always work. Claws in particular. You're also taking massive penalties, even with Multiattack and Improved Multiattack. It may be more worthwhile to focus on either natural weapons only (using normal Swordsage), or to focus on unarmed combat only (and use your Meldshaping for buffs). The former would make best use of Boosts, while the latter would get more mileage from Strikes.

See, this is helpful. As I said, I know nothing about unarmed combat. As I understand it, (and I am continuing to read up on the subject) unarmed strikes allow iterative attacks, whereas natural weapons generally allow only one, depending on the type of natural weapon. Is this correct? Are there other discrepancies of which I am unaware? Numerically speaking, which would produce more kapow?

[Gigas Breaker]

For BAB purposes I recommend only going Totemist 4. Your meldshaping won't be that good, but you'll be hitting things.

I also have to caution you about mixing unarmed strikes and natural weapons: It doesn't always work. Claws in particular. You're also taking massive penalties, even with Multiattack and Improved Multiattack. It may be more worthwhile to focus on either natural weapons only (using normal Swordsage), or to focus on unarmed combat only (and use your Meldshaping for buffs). The former would make best use of Boosts, while the latter would get more mileage from Strikes.

What is the problem with claws?

[Big Fau]

See, this is helpful. As I said, I know nothing about unarmed combat. As I understand it, (and I am continuing to read up on the subject) unarmed strikes allow iterative attacks, whereas natural weapons generally allow only one, depending on the type of natural weapon. Is this correct? Are there other discrepancies of which I am unaware? Numerically speaking, which would produce more kapow?

Damage-wise, with enough investment, you can get an Unarmed Strike up to about 20d6 or higher. However you are stuck with 3. Period. A single Strike is enough to do some decent damage, so you can focus more on your attack attack roll. This allows you to retain mobility: If you only ever use a Standard action to attack, you'll always have a Move action to re-position yourself.

The Totemist excels at getting multiple natural weapons (4 claws, a bite, a tail slap, wing buffets, tentacles, etc) and can make good use of them. Thanks to the rules of natural weapons, you don't suffer the iterative penalty more than once (or not at all with Improved Multiattack). These traits mean that you can get some serious bonuses from Boosts and Stances (Blood in the Water and Assassin's Stance, the latter of which can be used to enable magic items and feats that improve Sneak Attack). It's also considerably less of an investment on feats and items.

A big point is that Unarmed Strikes are a favored weapon of Shadow Hand, thus eligible for Shadow Blade, and for that feat from BoED that lets you use Wis to attack rolls. You can either go Finesse, or you can abuse the Swordsage's Wis to Damage class feature and get Str+Dex+Wis to damage. Pumping those stats is fairly easy, if expensive (it also encourages MAD, which is bad).

Unarmed Strikes have another advantage in that the Necklace of Natural Attacks exists. It allows you to enchant your unarmed strike as a magic weapon, which you can't do to natural weapons (well, you can, it's just exponentially more costly). Thus you can overcome DR, deal even more damage, get additional special effects, and so forth.

You can also buy a Scorpion Kama from the MiC, which is a weapon that deals damage equal to your Unarmed Strike damage if it would be better. Once you have one, you can give it to a Wizard and pay him to craft a second one and go TWFing with massive Unarmed damage.

So Unarmed can be much better, but it requires a lot of source books and isn't an easy investment.

Totemist is also an easy way to get Pounce, something you may want since the Swordsage's best method of getting it is a Strike.


What is the problem with claws?

You can't make a Claw attack and an Unarmed Strike in the same round unless the DM rules that Unarmed Swordsages inherit the Monk's special line about being able to use other body parts for unarmed strikes.

Double edit: You'd also have to take Multiattack/Improved to avoid a very nasty -5 on the Claws.

[Gigas Breaker]

You can't make a Claw attack and an Unarmed Strike in the same round unless the DM rules that Unarmed Swordsages inherit the Monk's special line about being able to use other body parts for unarmed strikes.

Ah, that would be a problem depending on the DM.

[Urpriest]

You can't make a Claw attack and an Unarmed Strike in the same round unless the DM rules that Unarmed Swordsages inherit the Monk's special line about being able to use other body parts for unarmed strikes.


They don't need that line, the normal definition of unarmed attacks is:

Unarmed Attacks

Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts

[Red Fel]

So Unarmed can be much better, but it requires a lot of source books and isn't an easy investment.

This appears to be the crux of the matter: If I'm willing to invest the feats, the items (and the library), unarmed strike could be better; if I want to keep it simple, natural weapons are functional. (And, from the sound of it, rather effective once I establish an array of them.)

Now let's remove Chakra Binds from the equation. Let's pretend this is an Unarmed Swordsage who has gear in every slot (except, obviously, totem). Regular soulmeld shaping is still an option, but only the Totem Chakra can have a Bind. Limiting him thusly, are natural weapons still viable?

[Big Fau]

This appears to be the crux of the matter: If I'm willing to invest the feats, the items (and the library), unarmed strike could be better; if I want to keep it simple, natural weapons are functional. (And, from the sound of it, rather effective once I establish an array of them.)

Now let's remove Chakra Binds from the equation. Let's pretend this is an Unarmed Swordsage who has gear in every slot (except, obviously, totem). Regular soulmeld shaping is still an option, but only the Totem Chakra can have a Bind. Limiting him thusly, are natural weapons still viable?

You'd be heavily restricted to minor skill/AC buffs. You wouldn't even be able to use a Chakra since you have to designate a different slot when binding to it.

To explain further: When you bind to the Totem, you have to look at one of the other chakra slots the soulmeld could occupy. You then have to use one of those as the "bound slot" if you choose to bind that meld to your Totem. For something like the Girallon Arms (an Arms+Totem Chakra IIRC) you wouldn't be able to use a Gauntlet if you wanted to get the Claws.


They don't need that line, the normal definition of unarmed attacks is:

I know a few DMs who would say otherwise, simply because they only ever see the rules for Unarmed Strikes in the Monk class (stupid, I know).

[Gemini476]

You can't make a Claw attack and an Unarmed Strike in the same round unless the DM rules that Unarmed Swordsages inherit the Monk's special line about being able to use other body parts for unarmed strikes.

...From the PHB weapon section:

Strike, Unarmed:A Medium character deals 1d3 points of
nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch,
kick, head butt, or other type of attack. A Small character deals 1d2
points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the
Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage
with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed
strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that
give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat (page 102) to apply your
Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls
with an unarmed strike.

I'm sure I could find it on the SRD as well, but eh.

[Urpriest]

You'd be heavily restricted to minor skill/AC buffs. You wouldn't even be able to use a Chakra since you have to designate a different slot when binding to it.

To explain further: When you bind to the Totem, you have to look at one of the other chakra slots the soulmeld could occupy. You then have to use one of those as the "bound slot" if you choose to bind that meld to your Totem. For something like the Girallon Arms (an Arms+Totem Chakra IIRC) you wouldn't be able to use a Gauntlet if you wanted to get the Claws.
.

Pretty sure you're misinterpreting here. Girallon Arms has to be shaped on the Arms chakra, but it isn't bound there, it's bound to Totem, so it shouldn't stop you from using an item on your Arms.

[Red Fel]

You'd be heavily restricted to minor skill/AC buffs. You wouldn't even be able to use a Chakra since you have to designate a different slot when binding to it.

To explain further: When you bind to the Totem, you have to look at one of the other chakra slots the soulmeld could occupy. You then have to use one of those as the "bound slot" if you choose to bind that meld to your Totem. For something like the Girallon Arms (an Arms+Totem Chakra IIRC) you wouldn't be able to use a Gauntlet if you wanted to get the Claws.

I'm not entirely sure about that:

Since the totem chakra doesn't match a body location, binding a soulmeld to this chakra doesn't restrict your use of magic items that take up a body location.

That said... Hmm. Admittedly, even without chakra binding, the skill boosts are useful, as many boost skills that correspond to the various disciplines. But if you're saying that this would dramatically limit my access to natural weapons, it seems that unarmed strikes are the way to go.

This, in turn, raises the question of whether I should go Incarnate/Swordsage instead of Totemist/Swordsage. Would the Incarnate's soulmelds (again, no binds) be more productive than the Totemist's?

[Spuddles]

MAD damage isnt necessarily bad. Str dex wis to damage can be raised by 3 points of damage for 12k, while if you are str only, it costs 16k to get the same damage boost. And that is assuming a two handed weapon. Otherwise it's 36k to get more str. Str also applies only half to your offhand attacks, such as secondary natural weapons, while dex via shadow blade is full to all.

There's a first level desert wind boost that gives your attacks +1d6 fire damage for a round. Very helpful with lots of attacks. Assassin's Stance is probably the best stance if you are going to shadow blade. You miss out on stuff like blood in the water though.

[Piggy Knowles]

So, I actually have a dragonborn totemist/warblade build I've been tinkering with for a while. Not exactly the same, but could be relevant...

Here's the build all told:

Dragonborn (Wings Aspect) Water Orc, Totemist 9/Warblade 8/Uncanny Trickster 3

1. Warblade1- Dragon Tail
Punishing Stance (s), Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind, Wolf Fang Strike
2. Totemist1-
3. Totemist2- Multiattack
4. Warblade2-
Wall of Blades
5. Warblade3-
Action Before Thought
6. Totemist3- Headlong Rush
7. Totemist4-
8. Warblade4-
Leading the Charge (s), Action Before Thought -> Iron Heart Surge
9. Warblade5- Ironheart Aura, Stormguard Warrior
Bounding Assault
10. Totemist5-
11. Totemist6-
12. Warblade6- Combat Reflexes
Wall of Blades -> Dancing Mongoose
13. Warblade7-
Rapid Counter
14. Totemist7-
15. Totemist8- Robilar’s Gambit
16. Warblade8-
Wolf Fang Strike -> Moment of Alacrity
17. Totemist9-
18. Uncanny Trickster1- Martial Stance (Hunter’s Sense)
19. Uncanny Trickster2-
20. Uncanny Trickster3- Blind-Fight
Raging Mongoose

UT2 progresses totemist, UT3 progresses warblade. Final maneuvers and stances look like this:

STANCES:
Punishing Stance, Leading the Charge, Hunter's Sense

MANEUVERS:
Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind, Wolf Fang Strike, Wall of Blades, Action Before Thought, Iron Heart Surge, Bounding Assault, Dancing Mongoose, Rapid Counter, Moment of Alacrity, Raging Mongoose

Fairly straightforward build overall, and it should play nicely at all levels. Note that many of your tricks, in particular Leading the Charge, help your allies out as well.

Low Levels:
Lots of natural attacks plus Punishing Stance will let you easily power through most low level encounters. You've got some extra mobility thanks to Sudden Leap, and Moment of Perfect Mind helps cut into the bane of most melee characters - your Will save.

Middle Levels:
Leading the Charge + Headlong Rush + lots of natural attacks means ridiculous damage on a charge, making that a fantastic way to open up most encounters. From there you can switch back into Punishing Stance for the more reliable bonus damage on each hit. You're mostly focused on boosts and counters where applicable, and you pick up Stormguard Warrior and Robilar's, both of which add a lot of very nice melee options. Rapid Counter helps improve the latter in particular.

High Levels:
Your uber-charging and Stormguard Warrior shtick still holds up well, perhaps even better now that you have things like Bounding Assault and Moment of Alacrity. You've also got the shoulders binds for goodies like Phase Cloak, and you go ahead and pick up scent from a stance just for fun. Dancing/Raging Mongoose complete your tendency to make ridiculous numbers of attacks in a round.


While not everything applies, it's worth mentioning a few things...

Stormguard Warrior is friggin' awesome on a totemist with a bunch of natural attacks. Of course, Stormguard Warrior requires an Iron Heart stance, which means either blowing a feat on Martial Stance (in addition to two feats for Ironheart Aura/Stormguard Warrior), or dipping into Warblade. Not necessarily a BAD idea, but something to think about.
As mentioned by others, focus on counters and boosts rather than strikes. Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind will be your main friends.
A three level dip in Uncanny Trickster can help bootstrap your IL if necessary to get back up to 9th-level maneuvers for Time Stands Still.
You will almost certainly either want to go up to level 5 in Totemist, or else blow a feat on Open Least Chakra (Hands). Picking up pounce with all your natural weapons is going to be so much nicer than relying on maneuvers to provide you with pounce.
If your DM is willing to waive alignment requirements, get Maiming Strike ASAP. This lets you sacrifice 2d6 sneak attack for a point of Charisma damage. At low levels, it's a terrible deal. At high levels it's AMAZING - HP grows at a much faster rate than Charisma. Imagine... a full attack with six or seven natural weapons, plus Raging Mongoose, plus Time Stands Still for another full attack - you're talking 16 or 18 points of Charisma damage in a single round, no save, not mind-affecting. Go ahead and flip through the monster manual, and tell me how many baddies can stand up to that. (However, it requires an evil alignment, and dragonborns can't be evil - so it would require some DM fiat.)

[Red Fel]

So, I actually have a dragonborn totemist/warblade build I've been tinkering with for a while. Not exactly the same, but could be relevant...

Here's the build all told:

Dragonborn (Wings Aspect) Water Orc, Totemist 9/Warblade 8/Uncanny Trickster 3

1. Warblade1- Dragon Tail
Punishing Stance (s), Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind, Wolf Fang Strike
2. Totemist1-
3. Totemist2- Multiattack
4. Warblade2-
Wall of Blades
5. Warblade3-
Action Before Thought
6. Totemist3- Headlong Rush
7. Totemist4-
8. Warblade4-
Leading the Charge (s), Action Before Thought -> Iron Heart Surge
9. Warblade5- Ironheart Aura, Stormguard Warrior
Bounding Assault
10. Totemist5-
11. Totemist6-
12. Warblade6- Combat Reflexes
Wall of Blades -> Dancing Mongoose
13. Warblade7-
Rapid Counter
14. Totemist7-
15. Totemist8- Robilar’s Gambit
16. Warblade8-
Wolf Fang Strike -> Moment of Alacrity
17. Totemist9-
18. Uncanny Trickster1- Martial Stance (Hunter’s Sense)
19. Uncanny Trickster2-
20. Uncanny Trickster3- Blind-Fight
Raging Mongoose

UT2 progresses totemist, UT3 progresses warblade. Final maneuvers and stances look like this:

STANCES:
Punishing Stance, Leading the Charge, Hunter's Sense

MANEUVERS:
Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind, Wolf Fang Strike, Wall of Blades, Action Before Thought, Iron Heart Surge, Bounding Assault, Dancing Mongoose, Rapid Counter, Moment of Alacrity, Raging Mongoose

Fairly straightforward build overall, and it should play nicely at all levels. Note that many of your tricks, in particular Leading the Charge, help your allies out as well.

Low Levels:
Lots of natural attacks plus Punishing Stance will let you easily power through most low level encounters. You've got some extra mobility thanks to Sudden Leap, and Moment of Perfect Mind helps cut into the bane of most melee characters - your Will save.

Middle Levels:
Leading the Charge + Headlong Rush + lots of natural attacks means ridiculous damage on a charge, making that a fantastic way to open up most encounters. From there you can switch back into Punishing Stance for the more reliable bonus damage on each hit. You're mostly focused on boosts and counters where applicable, and you pick up Stormguard Warrior and Robilar's, both of which add a lot of very nice melee options. Rapid Counter helps improve the latter in particular.

High Levels:
Your uber-charging and Stormguard Warrior shtick still holds up well, perhaps even better now that you have things like Bounding Assault and Moment of Alacrity. You've also got the shoulders binds for goodies like Phase Cloak, and you go ahead and pick up scent from a stance just for fun. Dancing/Raging Mongoose complete your tendency to make ridiculous numbers of attacks in a round.


While not everything applies, it's worth mentioning a few things...

Stormguard Warrior is friggin' awesome on a totemist with a bunch of natural attacks. Of course, Stormguard Warrior requires an Iron Heart stance, which means either blowing a feat on Martial Stance (in addition to two feats for Ironheart Aura/Stormguard Warrior), or dipping into Warblade. Not necessarily a BAD idea, but something to think about.
As mentioned by others, focus on counters and boosts rather than strikes. Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind will be your main friends.
A three level dip in Uncanny Trickster can help bootstrap your IL if necessary to get back up to 9th-level maneuvers for Time Stands Still.
You will almost certainly either want to go up to level 5 in Totemist, or else blow a feat on Open Least Chakra (Hands). Picking up pounce with all your natural weapons is going to be so much nicer than relying on maneuvers to provide you with pounce.
If your DM is willing to waive alignment requirements, get Maiming Strike ASAP. This lets you sacrifice 2d6 sneak attack for a point of Charisma damage. At low levels, it's a terrible deal. At high levels it's AMAZING - HP grows at a much faster rate than Charisma. Imagine... a full attack with six or seven natural weapons, plus Raging Mongoose, plus Time Stands Still for another full attack - you're talking 16 or 18 points of Charisma damage in a single round, no save, not mind-affecting. Go ahead and flip through the monster manual, and tell me how many baddies can stand up to that. (However, it requires an evil alignment, and dragonborns can't be evil - so it would require some DM fiat.)


Now, see, that's a very impressive build.

I don't follow half of it, but it certainly looks impressive.

First off, I'll admit, if I'm going with only multiple natural weapons - which looks less likely, in view of Fau's advice - Warblade makes a lot of sense, due to the boosts and counters, as you mentioned. The fact that I'm not using Swordsage - which keys off of Wis, which is a bit of a weak spot for Warforged - is a potential plus, as is the superior maneuver refresher mechanism of Warblade.

I notice you took Multiattack, but not Improved Multiattack. If the build is dependent on natural weapons, why not take the improved feat? I also noticed you took Reflexes/Gambit. Are you able to use full natural weapons on a counter with those?

Finally, I noticed you mentioned taking chakra binds. Does that mean you chose to leave those slots empty? I didn't see Split Chakra on your feat list.

I'd appreciate if you could explain not only the choices themselves, but the reasoning behind them - it would help me make an informed decision.

[Piggy Knowles]

Robilar's was to add a bit of off-turn attacking, and because it works fantastically with Stormguard Warrior. While I can't make full natural attacks with them, it was an additional way to add in attacks on a build that was focused on making as many as possible. It also fit in nicely with the "reckless" theme of the build I was going for.

I couldn't really fit in Improved Multiattack, unfortunately. It's not that big of a deal - dropping the penalty on secondary attacks from -5 to -2 is pretty significant already. Taking it down another -2 wasn't really worth losing any of the other feats to me.

Split Chakra was another liberty I couldn't really afford, one that was more painful than Improved Multiattack. Yeah, you'll just have to work around not using the relevant magic items. It's not actually that bad - of my three chakra binds, one will be the totem bind (doesn't conflict with a magic item), and one will be the hands bind for Sphinx Claws (no magic gloves doesn't hurt me too badly). The last usually ends up going to shoulders, which admittedly hurts a bit more.

Regarding the reasoning, the idea was to build a reckless charger that didn't rely on Power Attack. The original idea was to play around with Headlong Rush + Leading the Charge + pounce + lots and lots of natural attacks. However, when I started building, I found a lot of things just kind of clicked, in particular Stormguard Warrior, and built from there.

[Urpriest]

Magic item-wise, you can always get Incarnum Focus items with generic stat boosts added on as per MiC.

[Red Fel]

Robilar's was to add a bit of off-turn attacking, and because it works fantastically with Stormguard Warrior. While I can't make full natural attacks with them, it was an additional way to add in attacks on a build that was focused on making as many as possible. It also fit in nicely with the "reckless" theme of the build I was going for.

I couldn't really fit in Improved Multiattack, unfortunately. It's not that big of a deal - dropping the penalty on secondary attacks from -5 to -2 is pretty significant already. Taking it down another -2 wasn't really worth losing any of the other feats to me.

Split Chakra was another liberty I couldn't really afford, one that was more painful than Improved Multiattack. Yeah, you'll just have to work around not using the relevant magic items. It's not actually that bad - of my three chakra binds, one will be the totem bind (doesn't conflict with a magic item), and one will be the hands bind for Sphinx Claws (no magic gloves doesn't hurt me too badly). The last usually ends up going to shoulders, which admittedly hurts a bit more.

Regarding the reasoning, the idea was to build a reckless charger that didn't rely on Power Attack. The original idea was to play around with Headlong Rush + Leading the Charge + pounce + lots and lots of natural attacks. However, when I started building, I found a lot of things just kind of clicked, in particular Stormguard Warrior, and built from there.

Hmm... These are some good points.

First, you're right. The reduction from Multiattack is more valuable than that of Improved Multiattack. Build up the build enough and that -2 penalty isn't so painful.

Second, you make a very valuable point. My reluctance to take chakra binds was based on a fear of losing item slots in the abstract. But when you think about it, really, gloves for this build will mostly just be an opportunity for another socket for enchantments. Nothing particularly potent that would make or break me.

And you also make a good point with regard to Power Attack. As I recall, secondary natural weapons only take a portion of Strength bonus anyway; the goal is quantity, not quality, so I can see why that feat, often considered priceless on a melee character, isn't as necessary here.

And looking back at Stormguard Warrior again, now I see why you took Reflexes/Gambit. Yeah, I can see how withholding from AoOs, and then completely unloading natural weapons with +4 bonus, can be sick. And with enough natural weapons, the boost from Combat Rhythm becomes outrageous. That's one heck of a combo, definitely.

Overall, I can see why you chose Warblade. That build is a bit insane. If I end up going with natural weapons instead of unarmed attacks, I will definitely revisit this and steal borrow steal some of your ideas.

Thanks!

In the meantime, I still need to reach a determination as to whether natural weapons, numerically speaking, will outdo unarmed strikes with NNW and monk progression.

We've heard the natural weapons argument. Anybody care to take counterpoint? Or is this simply a case of "and this is yet another reason monks are fail"?

EDIT:

Magic item-wise, you can always get Incarnum Focus items with generic stat boosts added on as per MiC.

Actually, that's what I was planning with the Warforged composite plating. But you make a good point, I could simply tack that onto other items as well.

[Urpriest]

In the meantime, I still need to reach a determination as to whether natural weapons, numerically speaking, will outdo unarmed strikes with NNW and monk progression.

We've heard the natural weapons argument. Anybody care to take counterpoint? Or is this simply a case of "and this is yet another reason monks are fail"?


In general, you want both if at all possible. At the very least, I would recommend that every natural attack build past a certain BAB pick up Improved Unarmed Strike in some way (though generally after Multiattack). You get more attacks, for the penalty of -2 to what used to be your primary attacks.

That said, there is the question of whether it's worth working to boost your unarmed strike more than that. You'll only get three or four attacks with your unarmed strike, so more dice for it is nice, but probably not crucial. A Warblade with IUS and Snap Kick is probably going to work better for you than a full Unarmed Swordsage.

[Red Fel]

In general, you want both if at all possible. At the very least, I would recommend that every natural attack build past a certain BAB pick up Improved Unarmed Strike in some way (though generally after Multiattack). You get more attacks, for the penalty of -2 to what used to be your primary attacks.

That said, there is the question of whether it's worth working to boost your unarmed strike more than that. You'll only get three or four attacks with your unarmed strike, so more dice for it is nice, but probably not crucial. A Warblade with IUS and Snap Kick is probably going to work better for you than a full Unarmed Swordsage.

Now that last point - that a Warblade with IUS and Snap Kick works better than Unarmed Swordsage - is intriguing to me. I see, comparing tables, that Warblade has 20/20 BAB, while Swordsage has 15/20. Assuming I take six levels of Totemist (which gives me +4 BAB), that gives me a +18/+13/+8/+3 BAB at level 20 using Ttm 6/Wrb 14, and a +14/+9/+4 BAB at 20 with Swordsage. Even though monk unarmed progression will improve my dice rolls... you're right, that extra attack with a smaller die but greater modifiers means more.

So, looking back over, it seems that whether I go with unarmed strikes or natural weapons, the Sworsage loses to the Warblade. This means that I give up the Discipline Focus, initiative and AC bonus, evasion and sense magic (that last one never impressed me) of Swordsage... for... wow. Insight bonuses all over the place, Weapon Aptitude (which admittedly doesn't mean much when you're going unarmed/natural weapons), Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, three bonus feats, and the better BAB. Oh, and access to Iron Heart discipline.

Yeah, that's kind of a substantial gain. I can see how that might be a superior progression.

So you're suggesting natural weapons for full attacks with quantity, and unarmed strikes for standard attacks/Strikes with quality? It sounds like it takes a fairly heavy feat/gear/money investment, doesn't it?

[Urpriest]

So you're suggesting natural weapons for full attacks with quantity, and unarmed strikes for standard attacks/Strikes with quality? It sounds like it takes a fairly heavy feat/gear/money investment, doesn't it?

Unarmed-wise, you really only need IUS and Snap Kick, maybe Superior Unarmed Strike if you can fit it in. Unarmed Strikes will benefit from most of the same damage boosts you apply to your natural weapons, so if you focus on boosting those your unarmed strikes will be on par with your natural weapons which is really all you care about. Furthermore, depending on wealth and DM permissiveness you can totally get IUS from a Monk's Belt.

Without Superior Unarmed Strike, your unarmed strikes will actually be a bit worse than your other natural attacks due to lower dice. But the difference isn't too dramatic, and it's really the static bonuses you care about.

If you do get up to Totemist 9 (or Meldshaper Level 9 some other way) for Double Chakra, Heart of Fire can add some d4s of fire damage to each attack. Might be worth looking at.

[Person_Man]

Totemist generally just wants to make a full attack every round, or use a Standard Action ability from Gorgon Mask or Frost Helm bound to Totem chakra.

Swordsage generally wants to use a Full or Standard Action maneuver (with some Swift or Immediate Action Counters or Boosts mixed in) and generally does not make a full attack action unless they've run out of maneuvers, which only occurs in very long combat or if you didn't Ready enough Strikes.

Thus, there isn't a lot of natural synergy between the two classes. I would just stick with one class or the other. They're both excellent options on their own, they just don't mix together that well.

The one combo I could think of is Blink Shirt bound to Totem, which gives you at will, move action Dimension Door. If you're within reach of an enemy, use a Standard Action maneuver, then Dimension Door away. If you're not within reach of an enemy, use Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw) or Shadow Blink (Shadow Hand) or Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker (Magic Item Comp) or Anklet of Translocation (MIC) to get next to an enemy, use a Standard Action maneuver, Dimension Door away, rinse and repeat.

[Red Fel]

Unarmed-wise, you really only need IUS and Snap Kick, maybe Superior Unarmed Strike if you can fit it in. Unarmed Strikes will benefit from most of the same damage boosts you apply to your natural weapons, so if you focus on boosting those your unarmed strikes will be on par with your natural weapons which is really all you care about. Furthermore, depending on wealth and DM permissiveness you can totally get IUS from a Monk's Belt.

Without Superior Unarmed Strike, your unarmed strikes will actually be a bit worse than your other natural attacks due to lower dice. But the difference isn't too dramatic, and it's really the static bonuses you care about.

If you do get up to Totemist 9 (or Meldshaper Level 9 some other way) for Double Chakra, Heart of Fire can add some d4s of fire damage to each attack. Might be worth looking at.

The problem with building up Totemist is that I'd miss out on the high-level maneuvers, which frankly strike me as having both power and utility, as opposed to full-attacks which are simply raw power.


Totemist generally just wants to make a full attack every round, or use a Standard Action ability from Gorgon Mask or Frost Helm bound to Totem chakra.

Swordsage generally wants to use a Full or Standard Action maneuver (with some Swift or Immediate Action Counters or Boosts mixed in) and generally does not make a full attack action unless they've run out of maneuvers, which only occurs in very long combat or if you didn't Ready enough Strikes.

Thus, there isn't a lot of natural synergy between the two classes. I would just stick with one class or the other. They're both excellent options on their own, they just don't mix together that well.

This is a fair point. Would you then say that Incarnate is a better team-player with Swordsage?

[Big Fau]

An issue with the Warblade is that you get less Boosts, not that there were that many to begin with. As I said above, if you don't use boosts you may be better served with Unarmed Strikes instead of Natural Weapons. The Warblade gets a better use of the Avalanche of Blades maneuver and a slightly better TSS (especially if you do use Natural Weapons+Unarmed Strikes).

The Warblade also gets Iron Heart Surge with little to no investment, which is important seeing as Dispel Magic will be the bane of your meldshaping. And a better HD is always good.


The problem with building up Totemist is that I'd miss out on the high-level maneuvers, which frankly strike me as having both power and utility, as opposed to full-attacks which are simply raw power.

This is a fair point. Would you then say that Incarnate is a better team-player with Swordsage?

You also gain a ton of utility out of more Totemist levels (since a few of their best binds only really kick in when you use the mid-level Chakras).

As to your second question, kinda. You'd have to invest more levels and feats if you want Chakra Binds, and your meldshaping isn't going to provide as big of a boost as the Totemist would.

One of the problems with dipping Incarnum is that it is best used as a huge buff for your skills, but very little else due to the way it scales and how little support it got. Totemist provides the most significant bonuses for a melee-oriented character, while the Incarnate provides excellent numbers for skill-based ones. You do get a ton of defense buffs from the Incarnate though, and can take Shape Soulmeld for the most relevant Totemist defensive/skill buffs (Kruthik Claws and Wormtail Belt).

If only the Incarnum Blade didn't suck...

[Red Fel]

Let me see that I understand everything so far:

1- If you're doing Natural Weapons, you need boosts and counters, not strikes, as these won't interfere with your full attack actions. If you're doing Unarmed Strikes, you'll have bigger dice but fewer attacks, and you won't need to take a full attack, so strikes will be okay.

2- Warblade has a better BAB, which lends itself to unarmed strikes. Further, Warblade has fewer boosts and counters, with a greater emphasis on strikes, which lends itself to unarmed strikes. Conclusion: Warblade should use unarmed strikes over natural weapons.

3- Swordsage, like Warblade, uses more full attack actions to maximize its abilities. This interferes with Totemist's natural weapon full attack actions. The two do not interact well. Conclusion: Swordsage should use unarmed strikes over natural weapons.

4- Warblade's superior BAB and abilities, along with its lack of reliance on Wis (a problem for a Warforged build) make it a better choice than Swordsage. Conclusion: Warblade should be used over Swordsage.

5- Incarnate emphasizes skill boosts, whereas Totemist emphasizes natural weapon attacks and damage output. Totemist is superior for a melee character... because natural weapons? This appears to be in conflict with the earlier positions. Is it possible that I misunderstand this position?

So, in sum, I should take Warblade over Swordsage, and Unarmed Strikes over Natural Weapons. There is a question, however, of whether Totemist is the ideal choice. While many of its abilities provide useful functions, including boosts to discipline-relevant skills, it seems its primary focus is on natural weapons. We have established that investing in both unarmed strikes and natural weapons is challenging and expensive, and that unarmed strikes, while offering slightly lower overall damage, provide consistent static bonuses and allow better access to maneuvers. Accordingly, unarmed strikes are the preferred route; ergo, an emphasis on natural weapons is not optimal given the constraints of the build.

This leads to an interesting conflict. Given that the build's access to Chakra Binds will be limited (likely to a few infrequently-used slots, such as hands, or Totem Chakra if Totemist is chosen), which means that most binds provide little more than a skill boost or similarly minor and reproducible benefit, is an MoI class even appropriate for this build? Would a pure Warblade, unarmed or otherwise, be superior under the circumstances?

[Piggy Knowles]

I disagree that the warblade doesn't have enough boosts and counters to be worthwhile. It has all the essential ones - Tiger Claw for movement and extra attacks (Raging Mongoose et al.), Diamond Mind for the save counters, Iron Heart for Wall of Blades and similar, plus the incomparable Iron Heart Surge, and most importantly, White Raven for... well, for everything.

I'd argue that swordsages are much more strike-focused, and warblades are actually better for a build that is going to do a lot of full attacking.

[Red Fel]

I disagree that the warblade doesn't have enough boosts and counters to be worthwhile. It has all the essential ones - Tiger Claw for movement and extra attacks (Raging Mongoose et al.), Diamond Mind for the save counters, Iron Heart for Wall of Blades and similar, plus the incomparable Iron Heart Surge, and most importantly, White Raven for... well, for everything.

I'd argue that swordsages are much more strike-focused, and warblades are actually better for a build that is going to do a lot of full attacking.

Okay. Let's address this directly.

Ultimately, all ToB classes pull from the "maneuver pool"; it's not that one can have more counters and another more boosts. They're only dependent on what disciplines each class can take, assuming no feats, and what those disciplines offer.

The key difference between Swordsage and Warblade with regard to disciplines is that Swordsage gets Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw, while Warblade gets Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven. So, the distinction is that Swordsage gets Desert Wind, Setting Sun, and Shadow Hand, while Warblade gets Iron Heart and White Raven. So let's examine those disciplines in more detail, with regard to strikes, counters and boosts.

Swordsage:
- Desert Wind: 6 boosts, 3 counters, primarily lower-level. Emphasis on fire damage, which is less useful at higher levels.
- Setting Sun: 0 boosts, 7 counters, spread across almost every level. Emphasis on counters is obvious. But the discipline is optimized for smaller users to be used to best effect.
- Shadow Hand: 2 boosts, 1 counter, and Jaunt/Stride/Blink. Focus on stealth and sneak attacks, not necessarily in the bailiwick of a big shiny dinobot.

Warblade:
- Iron Heart: 2 boosts, 4 counters, and IHS, which is not typed (but requires a standard action). I don't need to tell you what makes IHS good.
- White Raven: 3 boosts, no counters, and Order Forged From Chaos, which is not typed (but requires a move action). Again, I don't need to tell you what makes White Raven special.

Because Warblades use more strikes than counters/boosts, they would less frequently take a full attack (seeing as you can't do that and initiate a non-swift maneuver). Swordsages, by contrast, could safely take a full attack action, given their healthy supply of swift boosts and immediate counters. Under the circumstances, I think you got it backwards, unless I misunderstand the mechanics of attacking.

[Piggy Knowles]

By the numbers, perhaps. But remember that you're only going to be readying so many maneuvers each combat, and warblades get far more useful boosts and counters. Plus, their recovery mechanic is miles better than the swordsage's, so you will be more likely to use your better boosts multiple times a combat. Even with Adaptive Style, I find it rare to see swordsages recovering maneuvers mid-combat - losing that round is just too painful.

Seriously, when you've got options like...


Sudden Leap
Moment of Perfect Mind
Iron Heart Surge
Dancing Mongoose
Rapid Counter
Moment of Alacrity
Raging Mongoose
White Raven Tactics
Clarion Call
Manticore Parry
Lightning Recovery


...you never actually need to prepare a single strike in order to be an effective warblade. Swordsages can get access to many of these, but not some of the best of them (WRT and IHS in particular), and they can't use them multiple times in an encounter without spending a full round action recovering. It's actually worse in some ways for them to focus on boosts and counters, because you'll burn through your readied maneuvers faster that way.

I love swordsages, but I think warblades are just plain better for this sort of build.

[Big Fau]

Another thing to consider is the Setting Sun throw maneuvers. The Totemist's meldshaping can make those a fair bit more powerful.

[Red Fel]

By the numbers, perhaps. But remember that you're only going to be readying so many maneuvers each combat, and warblades get far more useful boosts and counters. Plus, their recovery mechanic is miles better than the swordsage's, so you will be more likely to use your better boosts multiple times a combat. Even with Adaptive Style, I find it rare to see swordsages recovering maneuvers mid-combat - losing that round is just too painful.

Seriously, when you've got options like...


Sudden Leap
Moment of Perfect Mind
Iron Heart Surge
Dancing Mongoose
Rapid Counter
Moment of Alacrity
Raging Mongoose
White Raven Tactics
Clarion Call
Manticore Parry
Lightning Recovery


...you never actually need to prepare a single strike in order to be an effective warblade. Swordsages can get access to many of these, but not some of the best of them (WRT and IHS in particular), and they can't use them multiple times in an encounter without spending a full round action recovering. It's actually worse in some ways for them to focus on boosts and counters, because you'll burn through your readied maneuvers faster that way.

I love swordsages, but I think warblades are just plain better for this sort of build.

Hmm. Admittedly, most of those maneuvers are from Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw, neither of which is exclusive to Swordsage or Warblade. And Iron Heart Surge, while untyped, takes a standard action.

That said, I acknowledge that Warblade has some excellent swift or immediate action options. The question is whether these options are superior to those of Swordsage.

Consider, also, the fact that counters are contingent - in other words, if you ready six counters and are never attacked, those slots are completely wasted. (But you could use Adaptive Style to swap them back out for a full-round action.)

As you point out, Swordsage suffers from a key failing - even with a feat investment, it takes a Swordsage a full-round action to refresh his maneuvers. (Without the feat, it takes a full-round action just to refresh one!) By contrast, a Warblade can refresh his maneuvers with a swift action, coupled with an attack or simply doing nothing. The end result is the same - both classes need a round to recover - but the Warblade is able to attack normally during that time, whether with unarmed strikes or natural weapons. So here we have advantage: Warblade.

Let's be clear: I never said that Warblade didn't have enough boosts or counters to be worthwhile. I said that Swordsage's greater emphasis on boosts and counters lent more to Swordsage taking full-attack actions, while Warblade's reduced emphasis permitted combining strikes and move actions, or regular attacks and move actions - basically, it gave a reason not to take a full attack action. Full-attack actions are more inline with natural weapons, whereas unarmed strikes are more inline with unarmed attacks.

Under that paradigm, and taking into account Warblade's superior BAB and ability to refresh, along with the fact that counters are contingent upon being triggered, it seems that Warblade is a better choice for this build. And frankly, given the choice between natural weapons (to the exclusion of strikes) and unarmed attacks (to the inclusion of strikes), Warblade seems to do better with the latter.


Another thing to consider is the Setting Sun throw maneuvers. The Totemist's meldshaping can make those a fair bit more powerful.

And here we have advantage: Swordsage. Setting Sun is very counter-heavy. Counters are immediate actions, which can be triggered regardless of your use of a full attack. Warblade does not have this advantage. Further, Setting Sun blends nicely with an unarmed style, both in terms of flavor and in terms of function. The Setting Sun throws are also an excellent method of battlefield control, which is especially valuable considering the fact that Swordsage misses out on White Raven's action economy abuses.

I'm not sure, however, how Totemist shaping makes those more powerful. Is it the skill boosts? Because those same skill boosts also benefit the other disciplines. At this point it feels like we're going in circles - the Totemist gives good skill boosts, but its real benefit comes from natural weapons; if you're not doing lots of chakra binds, you miss out on this benefit, making Totemist a questionable decision; but if you ignore Totemist, you miss out on those good skill boosts. And around we go. There must be a balance - at what point is Totemist a good option for an up-to-six-level dip, and at what point is it not?

I'm also revisiting the question of whether unarmed attacks/natural weapons is even a good choice at this point. It seems there are serious design issues to be addressed on that matter.

[Piggy Knowles]

Sphinx Claws, which you will want regardless because of pounce, also boost Strength checks. That will help out your Setting Sun throws. I assume that's what Big Fau was referencing.

[Gigas Breaker]

My totemist swordsage only has two levels of totemist for kruthik claws, wormtail belt, and whatever you can bind to your crown for telepathy. I plan on taking the open chakra crown feat at six and then mindsight at nine. I don't use any natural weapons and I focus on shadow hand strikes. I have also taken shape soulmeld felmist robe for concealment to help my hide in plain sight from the dark template. I am more of a swordsage with a few buffs from incarnum and it works pretty well. Honestly, if I make a natural weapon character I will probably just dive in to totemist.

[Red Fel]

Sphinx Claws, which you will want regardless because of pounce, also boost Strength checks. That will help out your Setting Sun throws. I assume that's what Big Fau was referencing.


My totemist swordsage only has two levels of totemist for kruthik claws, wormtail belt, and whatever you can bind to your crown for telepathy. I plan on taking the open chakra crown feat at six and then mindsight at nine. I don't use any natural weapons and I focus on shadow hand strikes. I have also taken shape soulmeld felmist robe for concealment to help my hide in plain sight from the dark template. I am more of a swordsage with a few buffs from incarnum and it works pretty well. Honestly, if I make a natural weapon character I will probably just dive in to totemist.

Okay, I think I see now. And I think I should reconsider the issue from another angle.

Given that the character will be Dragonborn Warforged, Wings aspect, Mithral Body for plating, let us consider the options Incarnum presents, in an absolute sense. Let us assume for the moment that the character has access to all of his soulmelds in all slots, and compare across three options.

1: Using Totemist for natural weapons. This build basically requires Incarnum Focus (or a lack of magic items) in each slot, because binding is almost mandatory.

Crown Chakra: None of these actually gives me an extra natural weapon, although some of these are useful if bound.
Feet Chakra: Dread Carapace, without being bound, gives a boost to natural weapon damage, at the cost of the attack roll. Urskan Greaves give a bonus on a charge.
Hands Chakra: Bloodtalons give Weapon Finesse if bound to Hands, as do Kruthik Claws. Sphinx Claws, if bound, allow a full attack with natural weapons while making a charge - obviously, this is huge. And Worg Pelt allows a trip attack if you use a bite.
Arms Chakra: ...

You know, I can actually stop here. I think the point has been made - and validly - that in order to maximize my natural weapons, I'd have to bind a soulmeld in basically every slot. That requires substantial investment into Incarnum Focus items, and probably feats, and almost assuredly deep, deep investment in the Totemist class.

Sorry, natural weapons Totemist dip; I just don't think it will work out between us.

But what about a Totemist or Incarnate dip just for boosts?

2: Using Totemist for skills and other assorted benefits.

Crown Chakra: Without chakra binds, Shedu Crown is useful, as is Threefold Mask. And Frost Helm is nice if traveling in extreme climates. With binds, Shedu Crown becomes incredible (as Gigas helpfully pointed out), and Threefold Mask grants some exceptional mobility.
Feet Chakra: Without chakra binds, Work Pelt becomes useful for Shadow Hand, and Landshark Boots for Tiger Claw. Totem Avatar's base is useful for a character who doesn't heal normally; its investment bonus is extremely nice if it stacks (which I'm not sure it does). With binds, Dread Carapace is like a form of Travel Devotion, which is fantastic, and Landshark Boots grant tremorsense, which is wonderful.
Hands Chakra: Without chakra binds, Sphinx Claws are outrageously good, and Kruthik Claws provide a small benefit to Shadow Hand users. With binds, Sphinx Claws' bonus to "natural weapons" also benefits the Unarmed Swordsage (remember that a monk's unarmed strikes count as either natural weapons or manufactured, as needed). Sphinx seems to be a clear winner for this slot.
Arms Chakra: Without chakra binds, Lammasu Mantle provides a neat and helpful bonus, and as mentioned, Totem Avatar may be useful. With binds, Lammasu Mantle gets even better, and Riding Bracers become suddenly relevant.
Brow Chakra: Without chakra binds, Basilisk and Disenchanter Masks give useful sensory boosts. The rest are just useful skills. With binds, Basilisk Mask gives Blind-fight, which is excellent, while Yrthak Mask gives a form of blindsense, coupled with a spot penalty.
Shoulders Chakra: Without chakra binds, Lammasi Mantle and Totem Avatar are as useful as they have been. With binds, Displacer Mantle is very valuable for a melee, Lammasu again becomes even more potent, Phase Cloak grants ethereality for a mobile fighter, and Totem Avatar upgrades monk unarmed strikes.
Throat Chakra: Without chakra binds, Ankheg gives a solid AC bonus (which doesn't appear to stack), and Winter Mask provides a nasty surprise for opponents for an unarmed striker. With binds, you get breath weapons. Not feeling the chakra binds on this one.
Waist Chakra: Without chakra binds, Phoenix Belt gives head adaption, and Wormtail Belt gives the now-familiar natural armor AC boost. With binds, Heart of Fire becomes useful (for a grappler), Lamia Belt grants Spring Attack, Phoenix Belt grants fire healing, and Wormtail Belt grants Awesome Blow - which won't be as useful for a Medium character.
Heart Chakra: Without chakra binds, Blink Shirt is seriously useful for mobility, and Totem Avatar we've discussed. With binds, Blink Shirt grants Blink as a standard action, which is fine for mobility but wastes an attack; Dread Carapace grants spell resistance, which is pretty nice; Shedu Crown grants Ethereal Jaunt; and Totem Avatar grants DR/magic (which becomes less useful pretty quickly at higher levels).
Soul Chakra: This requires an epic feat. No thank you.
Totem Chakra: Honestly, this slot grants special attacks or natural weapons almost exclusively. Blink Shirt's Dimension Door is nice, as is Dread Carapace's shaken effect. Great Raptor grants Evasion, Heart of Fire grants fire damage on unarmed strikes, and Totem Avatar boosts monk's unarmed strikes (natural weapons). The rest are all natural weapons.


Those abilities have some serious potential. But as expected, with a few exceptions, they require chakra binds to get at the best stuff.

But there's still one option left to consider: does the Incarnate have anything better to offer? For purposes of this exercise, the character is NG, so that limits some of our soulmelds.

3: Using Incarnate for skills and assorted benefits.

Crown Chakra: Without chakra binds, Crystal Helm gives a bonus against charm saves, Diadem of Purelight grants a light radius, and Enigma Helm grants resistance to divinations. With binds, Crystal allows you to strike incorporeal foes, with unarmed or weapon attacks; Purelight negates concealment; and Enigma grants immunity to enchantment.
Feet Chakra: Without chakra binds, Impulse Boots grant Uncanny Dodge. With binds, Cerulean Sandles grant Dimension Door, and Impulse Boots grant Evasion.
Hands Chakra: Without chakra binds, Lucky Dice grant a luck bonus. With binds, Lightning Gauntlets add electricity damage and Lucky Dice spread to allies.
Arms Chakra: Without chakra binds, Bluesteel Bracers grant an initiative bonus (and a bonus on damage rolls if invested), and Lammasu Mantle pays another visit. With binds, Bluesteel Bracers improve, Lammasu is Lammasu, and Riding Bracers are cute.
Brow Chakra: Without chakra binds, Planar Chasuble is nice; the rest are skill boosts. With binds, Illusion Veil and Keeneye Lenses grant See Invisibility.
Shoulders Chakra: Without chakra binds, Adamant Pauldrons grant fortification, Lammasu is Lammasu, and Therapeutic Mantle is really good for someone who doesn't heal normally. With binds, Adamant Pauldrons are even better, Lammasu is Lammasu, and Wind Cloak deflects arrows.
Throat Chakra: Without chakra binds, Planar Ward grants mental protection. With binds, Apparition Ribbon grants incorporeality, and Planar Ward turns you into The Exorcist.
Waist Chakra: Without chakra binds, you can get resistances or reduce ability damage, but the big cheese here is the Vitality Belt, which grants a bonus on Constitution checks and skills. This basically makes Diamond Mind really, really good, particularly on a character with high Con to begin with. With binds, there are some nice little things, but nothing to write home about.
Heart Chakra: Without chakra binds, Spellward Shirt gives flat spell resistance. With binds, Spellward Shirt grants actual immunity to some spells, and Strongheart Vest grants immunity to energy drain and death effects.
Soul Chakra: As this requires either an epic feat or 19 levels of Incarnate, I don't see it happening.


It seems that even without using chakra binds, an Incarnate can get some extremely valuable abilities. Further, whereas most of the benefits of non-bound Totemist soulmelds are skill-based, an Incarnate has a variety of useful effects, powers and resistances (even some resembling feats!) without having to actually free up a slot.

Under the circumstances, I am starting to consider whether Incarnate/Warblade is a better idea after all. Thoughts?

[Piggy Knowles]

Not necessarily. For example, as a dragonborn, you can pick up Draconic Tail. By level two, you can have Girallon Arms bound to totem chakra for four attacks, so with the tail that's five natural attacks with barely any investment at all. By level five, you can add in the hands bound Sphinx Claws for pounce. That's available with just a dip into totemist; more chakra binds of course means more natural attacks, and you can also pick some more up via feats (Jaws of Death, for example, or Animal Devotion).

[Red Fel]

Not necessarily. For example, as a dragonborn, you can pick up Draconic Tail. By level two, you can have Girallon Arms bound to totem chakra for four attacks, so with the tail that's five natural attacks with barely any investment at all. By level five, you can add in the hands bound Sphinx Claws for pounce. That's available with just a dip into totemist; more chakra binds of course means more natural attacks, and you can also pick some more up via feats (Jaws of Death, for example, or Animal Devotion).

Okay. So let's assume I took this method. I would need to spend two additional feats - one for Dragon Tail, one for a bite attack. Instead, I will forego Dragon Tail (the feat) and take Dragon Tail (the draconic soulmeld (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4)). However, I will not bind the Draconic Tail soulmeld (which would increase its damage from 1d8+Str to 2d6+ 1.5 Str). Assuming I then used Girallon Arms and Sphinx Claws, I would have 1d4+x+Str and 3d4+3x+1/2Str (claws), 1d6+1/2Str (or 1d3 Con damage) (bite), and 1d8+y+Str (tail), where x and y are essentia invested in a given soulmeld. Note that everything beyond the first 1d4+x+Str is made at a -5 penalty (-2 if I take Multiattack).

Let us compare this with a Warblade's unarmed strikes at level 14, with 6 levels of Totemist. BAB would be +18/+13/+8/+3. Damage would be 1d3+Str nonlethal without SUS; with SUS, they would deal 2d6+Str. If we had a Swordsage with Monk unarmed progression, BAB under the same circumstances would be +14/+9/+4, dealing 2d6+Str without SUS; with SUS, that increases to 2d8. Note also that Swordsage gets a Weapon Focus, and with two disciplines that use Unarmed Strikes, it would be insane not to take Weapon Focus (Unarmed), granting a +1 to those strikes, making an effective base attack of +15/+10/+5. Similarly, a Warblade qualifies for Fighter feats, and could take Weapon Focus (Unarmed), or a variety of other boosters. Warblade also gets his Int bonus against flat-footed or flanked opponents.

So let's math it out. In terms of raw damage, the natural weapons of Totemist will give me 4d4+1d8+4x+y+3.5 Str + (1d6+1/2 Str OR 1d3 Con damage). Unarmed Warblade will give me, with SUS, 8d6+ 4 Str (+4 Int against flat-footed or flanked opponents), not counting any other feats. Unarmed Swordsage will give me, with SUS, 6d8+ 3 Str, not counting any other feats.

Putting together average damage, Totemist gives me 14.5+4x+y+3.5 Str + (3.5 + 1/2 Str OR 1.5 Con damage). Warblade gives me 28 + 4 Str (+4 Int against flat-footed or flanked opponents). Swordsage gives me 27 + 3 Str.
Let's remove the variables: Let's assume I have 14 Str (and 12 Int, just for completeness), that I took Jaws of Death instead of Animal Devotion, and that I invested 2 essentia each in Girallon Arms and Dragon Tail.

Natural Weapons (Totemist): 14.5+8+2+7+3.5+1= 36 damage
Unarmed (Warblade): 28+8 (+4 against flat-footed or flanked opponents)= 36 (+4) damage
Unarmed (Swordsage): 27+6= 33 damage

In sum, Warblade and Totemist are extremely comparable, while Swordsage lags behind very slightly, which is to be expected. Natural weapons deal more damage, in this context, if we invest essentia into them, and binding Dragon Tail would have done even more, but Warblade gets a nice bonus to flat-footed enemies. Note also that Sphinx Claws let me full attack on a charge as well. Note finally that Warblade required two feats invested, Unarmed Swordsage required one, and Totemist required at least one feat for bite attack, possibly another if I wanted an actual tail (although the soulmeld deals more damage), and also either doing without magic items in several slots, or investing in Incarnum Focus items.

Overall, natural weapons give me more attacks - specifically, six attacks, as opposed to Warblade's four or Swordsage's two. However, they are individually weaker than Warblade or Swordsage's unarmed strikes. Further, the Natural Weapons build requires more investment, in terms of feats, finances, and item slots. Finally, unlike unarmed strikes, soulmelds can be suppressed. Unarmed strikes, it would appear, provide a more consistent bonus which is less expensive to produce and harder to remove.

Have I done my calculations correctly? Is my conclusion accurate? As I've said, my familiarity with unarmed combat is limited, so I don't know if I'm gauging the feat and financial costs accurately.

[Piggy Knowles]

Well, also don't forget about passive auras like Leading the Charge that add to each attack or damage boosts from things like Stormguard Warrior, which tend to favor making as many attacks as possible. There's also the fact that you can combine natural attacks and unarmed strikes - it's not solely an either/or proposition.

[Red Fel]

Well, also don't forget about passive auras like Leading the Charge that add to each attack or damage boosts from things like Stormguard Warrior, which tend to favor making as many attacks as possible. There's also the fact that you can combine natural attacks and unarmed strikes - it's not solely an either/or proposition.

Okay. This last part was the part that was confusing me, so I've been re-rereading the rules on this.

As I (now) understand it, you can either make a standard attack with your primary weapons, or a full attack with your unarmed strike/primary natural weapons, plus all secondary natural weapons at a -5 penalty (-2 with Multiattack). Is that correct? And this full attack includes your primary at full BAB and iterations, or does it only include a single attack of your primary?

[Urpriest]

Okay. This last part was the part that was confusing me, so I've been re-rereading the rules on this.

As I (now) understand it, you can either make a standard attack with your primary weapons, or a full attack with your unarmed strike/primary natural weapons, plus all secondary natural weapons at a -5 penalty (-2 with Multiattack). Is that correct? And this full attack includes your primary at full BAB and iterations, or does it only include a single attack of your primary?

That's correct, and it includes all of your primary iteratives. Do note that a standard attack is always only one weapon (barring Snap Kick), no matter how many primaries you have. Even if you have two claws, you only get one as a standard, for example.

[Big Fau]

Okay. This last part was the part that was confusing me, so I've been re-rereading the rules on this.

As I (now) understand it, you can either make a standard attack with your primary weapons, or a full attack with your unarmed strike/primary natural weapons, plus all secondary natural weapons at a -5 penalty (-2 with Multiattack). Is that correct? And this full attack includes your primary at full BAB and iterations, or does it only include a single attack of your primary?

To clarify it: If you use anything other than your primary natural weapon in a Full Attack, ALL natural weapon attacks you make are considered secondary.

Example: BAB +15/+10/+5, 2 Claws, a Bite, 2 Tentacles, Unarmed Strike abilities, no Multiattack. Take full attack action as follows: Unarmed +15/+10/+5 and 2 Claws +10/+10 and 2 Tentacles +10/+10 and Bite +10. If you ever use the Unarmed Strike on a full attack all other natural weapons you possess default to being secondary.

If you don't use the unarmed strike, then one of your natural weapons is designated as the Primary (thus attacks made with it use your highest attack roll) and all others are secondary. Due to the way the Totemist's soulmelds are worded, this means you can designate any of them as the Primary. The only major exceptions are the Dragon Magic soulmelds, the Manitcore Belt, and the Girallon arms (the Belt because it's worded like a special action, not a natural weapon, and the Arms because only 1 of the 4 it grants can ever be your Primary). So using the above example, you could designate the Claws as the Primary and go +15/+15/+10/+10/+10 (beats the hell out of Flurry of Blows), or the Tentacles for the same routine, or the Bite for +15/+10/+10/+10/+10 (although you'd be better off with the other two).

Secondary natural weapons only get 1/2 Strength to damage IIRC.

So if you have a maneuver like Leading the Charge (and Pounce to abuse it), you will want to pump up how many natural weapon types you have (Girallon Arms, Displacer Cloak/Pelt/Whatever it's called, anything that gives a Bite, a Tail Slap via a Graft instead of a Soulmeld, Wing Buffets, Slams, and a Psuedopod if you can manage it). Mixing in Unarmed Strikes (with Snap Kick and a Haste effect) means even more damage. Getting a free +18 bonus on damage rolls is insane when you start stacking those attacks.

Stormguard Warrior is even better for it. I recall a build capable of getting around 600 damage/round with that thing, and that was with TWFing and AoOs.

[Red Fel]

That's correct, and it includes all of your primary iteratives. Do note that a standard attack is always only one weapon (barring Snap Kick), no matter how many primaries you have. Even if you have two claws, you only get one as a standard, for example.


To clarify it: If you use anything other than your primary natural weapon in a Full Attack, ALL natural weapon attacks you make are considered secondary.

Example: BAB +15/+10/+5, 2 Claws, a Bite, 2 Tentacles, Unarmed Strike abilities, no Multiattack. Take full attack action as follows: Unarmed +15/+10/+5 and 2 Claws +10/+10 and 2 Tentacles +10/+10 and Bite +10. If you ever use the Unarmed Strike on a full attack all other natural weapons you possess default to being secondary.

If you don't use the unarmed strike, then one of your natural weapons is designated as the Primary (thus attacks made with it use your highest attack roll) and all others are secondary. Due to the way the Totemist's soulmelds are worded, this means you can designate any of them as the Primary. The only major exceptions are the Dragon Magic soulmelds, the Manitcore Belt, and the Girallon arms (the Belt because it's worded like a special action, not a natural weapon, and the Arms because only 1 of the 4 it grants can ever be your Primary). So using the above example, you could designate the Claws as the Primary and go +15/+15/+10/+10/+10 (beats the hell out of Flurry of Blows), or the Tentacles for the same routine, or the Bite for +15/+10/+10/+10/+10 (although you'd be better off with the other two).

Secondary natural weapons only get 1/2 Strength to damage IIRC.

So if you have a maneuver like Leading the Charge (and Pounce to abuse it), you will want to pump up how many natural weapon types you have (Girallon Arms, Displacer Cloak/Pelt/Whatever it's called, anything that gives a Bite, a Tail Slap via a Graft instead of a Soulmeld, Wing Buffets, Slams, and a Psuedopod if you can manage it). Mixing in Unarmed Strikes (with Snap Kick and a Haste effect) means even more damage. Getting a free +18 bonus on damage rolls is insane when you start stacking those attacks.

Stormguard Warrior is even better for it. I recall a build capable of getting around 600 damage/round with that thing, and that was with TWFing and AoOs.

Right. So, if I were to take a full attack action, with unarmed strikes and natural weapons...

Honestly, it seems I'd be better off just using a regular weapon alongside my natural weapons. The feat investment for both unarmed strikes and natural weapons just seems... Incredible. I get that, for example, an Unarmed Swordsage with SUS and Totemist chakra binds, in the above example, world do the 33 damage from unarmed strikes, plus four claw attacks (all treated as secondary), plus tail and bite... which comes out to...

Gah, let me write this out again. That's 6d8+3*Str from Swordsage, plus 4d4+4x+2Str from claws, plus 1d6+1/2 Str from bite, plus 1d8+y+1/2 Str from tail...

That's 6*4.5+3*2+4*2.5+4*2+2*2+3.5*1/2*2+4.5+2+1/2*2= an average of 66 damage on a full attack. Hokey smokes. With Warblade, that's more like 69 (+4).

Okay. I can officially see now why natural weapons are sick on a full attack. Zoinks.

Still, that's a substantial feat and monetary investment. Let me see...

With six levels of Totemist, I have the Totem and Hands chakra open, freebie. I'd need to spend a feat on Jaws of Death, but on the plus side that's a non-soulmeld, so I get to keep that bite attack. I'd need to spend a feat on Superior Unarmed Strike, and on Improved Unarmed Strike if I go Warblade. I'd need another feat to get Multiattack. That's already 3/4 feats. I'd also want to invest in Incarnum Focus on my hands slot, in order to bind Sphinx there, and one in my waist slot if I want to upgrade the Draconic Tail. Let's consider the fact that an Incarnum Focus costs 15,000 as a starting point, before I drop any enchantments on it. Yowza. Just one of those sets me back a bit; two would set me back substantially, not to mention that because IF is a base item type instead of an enhancement, I can't exactly slap it onto something else (e.g. Belt of Battle).

On the other hand... That's a heckuva lot of average damage in a single full attack action, it's easily reproducible, and with Time Stands Still, it could be considered a war crime.

I need to think about this. While I do, I'd like to hear devil's advocate: Is there a downside to going this route, with six levels of totemist, 3/4 feats, an IF item or two? Are those sacrifices worth the gain?

And, to once more consider: Which is the better source of maneuvers, since there now appears to be disagreement - (Unarmed) Swordsage or Warblade?

[Piggy Knowles]

It really only requires IUS, which you can get from an item. Granted, that item is a glove, IIRC, but you can always pay 1.5 times the item cost to get it added to a different item and not conflict with Sphinx Claws, per the MIC rules for combining items. That said, a feat for an extra attack is almost always a good idea, so once you have IUS it's hard to pass up Snap Kick...

There are two main advantages with going with unarmed strikes over weapons...


The weapon will almost certainly conflict with your natural weapon attacking abilities (how are you going to strike with claws when you're holding a weapon?),
Unarmed strikes count as natural weapons themselves, meaning that when you gain pounce via Sphinx Claws (which only works with natural weapons), you can attack with your unarmed strike routine as well.

[Red Fel]

It really only requires IUS, which you can get from an item. Granted, that item is a glove, IIRC, but you can always pay 1.5 times the item cost to get it added to a different item and not conflict with Sphinx Claws, per the MIC rules for combining items. That said, a feat for an extra attack is almost always a good idea, so once you have IUS it's hard to pass up Snap Kick...

There are two main advantages with going with unarmed strikes over weapons...


The weapon will almost certainly conflict with your natural weapon attacking abilities (how are you going to strike with claws when you're holding a weapon?),
Unarmed strikes count as natural weapons themselves, meaning that when you gain pounce via Sphinx Claws (which only works with natural weapons), you can attack with your unarmed strike routine as well.


1: If I go Unarmed Swordsage, I assume IUS is included. SUS is icing, so admittedly, it's more of a "want" than a "need." Still, the sizing-up on the dice is incredibly formidable, and if this build is designed around heaping unarmed/natural attacks, spending one of my precious feats on it makes some sense.

2: If I take a glove that grants IUS, I can't take an Incarnum Focus item in that slot, which means I can't bind Sphinx to hands. That's a problem. But you're right, I could pay extra (over the already outrageous IF cost) to stack it on IF gloves.

3: Good point on Snap Kick. It's a free extra, just costs a feat.

4: Girallon Arms are specifically listed as separate claw weapons. Thus, they do not conflict with my unarmed strikes.

5: Yes on Sphinx > charge > natural weapons > unarmed strikes. This is a valuable thing that I have observed.

And Fau also pointed out taking Stormguard Warrior, which is admittedly sick with this combination, although that would basically require me to go Warblade, and has an additional feat tax (Ironheart Aura).

Let me step back and calculate... I get a feat at level 1 (Mithral Body), followed by one at 3 and one at every third level thereafter. Assuming the campaign goes to at least level 18, that's six feats (we exclude the level 1 feat, since that's a given). This build currently requires Jaws of Death, Multiattack, and Improved Unarmed Strike (if Warblade). It may also need Superior Unarmed Strike, Ironheart Aura and Stormguard Warrior, Snap Kick... In theory, I suppose I could try to replace some things with items or grafts, but basically, this build requires maximum feat investment. That's a lot.

Hmm... More thoughts, anyone?

[Piggy Knowles]

Nothing should conflict with your unarmed strike, as you can use kicks or headbutts to deliver them. The bit about conflicting with your natural attacks was just for if you are using an actual weapon.

Regarding Ironheart Aura as a feat tax, don't forget that it's one of the bonus feats Warblades get every five levels or so. You can pick it up that way and save yourself a standard feat.

[Red Fel]

Nothing should conflict with your unarmed strike, as you can use kicks or headbutts to deliver them. The bit about conflicting with your natural attacks was just for if you are using an actual weapon.

Regarding Ironheart Aura as a feat tax, don't forget that it's one of the bonus feats Warblades get every five levels. You can pick it up that way and save yourself a standard feat.

That's true! By Warblade 14 I'll have gotten three of those, too! Good catch!

[Piggy Knowles]

So, putting it all together, you could go with something like...

1. Warblade1- Improved Unarmed Strike
2. Totemist1-
3. Totemist2- Multiattack
4. Warblade2-
5. Warblade3-
6. Warblade4- Jaws of Death
7. Warblade5- Ironheart
8. Warblade6-
9. Totemist3- Stormguard Warrior
10. Totemist4-
11. Totemist5-
12. Totemist6- Snap Kick
13. Warblade7-
14. Warblade8-
15. Warblade9- Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit
16. Warblade10-
17. Warblade11-
18. Warblade12- Superior Unarmed Strike
19. Warblade13- Improved Initiative/Blind-Fight
20. Warblade14-

If no Mithral Body is a deal-breaker for you, you can swap things around as you'd like, dropping off either Robilar's or SUS. (If you drop Robilar's, I might take both Improved Initiative and Blind-Fight with your remaining Warblade bonus feats and not bother with Combat Reflexes.) The reason I left it off is because, if you're only going with six levels in Totemist, you can just wear armor - it won't conflict with any of your chakra binds.

I haven't worked out maneuvers, but you do end up with IL 17 at the end, meaning you can use the swap you get at Warblade 14 to pick up Time Stands Still. I'd just make sure to keep its pre-reqs in mind as you're considering which maneuvers to take. Other than that, I'd focus on the Dancing/Raging Mongoose maneuvers, the save boosters, maybe a few counters, etc. You'll need an Iron Heart stance; Punishing Stance is probably your best choice, as it's pretty hard to beat at low levels. You'll be tossing around six attacks by level 3, so adding on +1d6 damage to all of them will completely tear through most enemies.

Other than that, since you'll have pounce, definitely consider Leading the Charge... +17 damage on all your attacks can mean an extra 200+ points of damage when you're making twelve attacks or so. Plus, it'll help out your party. You can switch to a different stance after the first round of combat as a swift action.

If you don't like Robilar's to charge up Combat Rhythm off-turn, Martial Study or Martial Stance to pick up some of those Swordsage maneuvers/stances you'll be missing would be a fine choice in its place.

[Red Fel]

So, putting it all together, you could go with something like...

1. Warblade1- Improved Unarmed Strike
2. Totemist1-
3. Totemist2- Multiattack
4. Warblade2-
5. Warblade3-
6. Warblade4- Jaws of Death
7. Warblade5- Ironheart
8. Warblade6-
9. Totemist3- Stormguard Warrior
10. Totemist4-
11. Totemist5-
12. Totemist6- Snap Kick
13. Warblade7-
14. Warblade8-
15. Warblade9- Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit
16. Warblade10-
17. Warblade11-
18. Warblade12- Superior Unarmed Strike
19. Warblade13- Improved Initiative/Blind-Fight
20. Warblade14-

I was just thinking about this, actually. You put it splendidly. This is a sensible, functional and effective build.

I am curious, however, as to why Warblade was first level. It seems I'd want to take my first Warblade level when my IL was high enough to take higher-level maneuvers out of the gate.

Thank you.


If no Mithral Body is a deal-breaker for you, you can swap things around as you'd like, dropping off either Robilar's or SUS. (If you drop Robilar's, I might take both Improved Initiative and Blind-Fight with your remaining Warblade bonus feats and not bother with Combat Reflexes.) The reason I left it off is because, if you're only going with six levels in Totemist, you can just wear armor - it won't conflict with any of your chakra binds.

On the one hand, losing Mithral Body is not a deal-breaker. On the other, if I go with Wings aspect, losing Mithral Body becomes problematic for two key reasons - first, armor modified for wings can get pretty pricey; second, I'll be limited to light armor if I intend to fly without feat investments.

If I go with Mind aspect instead of Wings (a possibility, although one that's fairly well-reproduced by items/spells) this becomes a moot point; I could tank up and still function fine without Warforged plating of any kind.

But it's a valid point. Hmm.


I haven't worked out maneuvers, but you do end up with IL 17 at the end, meaning you can use the swap you get at Warblade 14 to pick up Time Stands Still. I'd just make sure to keep its pre-reqs in mind as you're considering which maneuvers to take. Other than that, I'd focus on the Dancing/Raging Mongoose maneuvers, the save boosters, maybe a few counters, etc. You'll need an Iron Heart stance; Punishing Stance is probably your best choice, as it's pretty hard to beat at low levels. You'll be tossing around six attacks by level 3, so adding on +1d6 damage to all of them will completely tear through most enemies.

Yes. Time Stands Still is clearly a goal with this. Strike of Perfect Clarity too, if I can get it, although this build is more designed for boosts/counters than proper strikes. I'll be honest, I'd probably avoid most Tiger Claw, if only because it really requires optimizing jump; but then again, I've never considered how Tiger Claw synergizes with natural weapons. The descriptions on the Mongoose maneuvers sound limiting, though (e.g. Raging Mongoose is limited to "four extra attacks", not four with each weapon, just four overall), so I'm not sure the synergy is that impressive. I agree with an Iron Heart stance, and Punishing Stance adds to the sickness that is this build (1d6 per attack is an average damage of, with four iterative unarmed strikes, four claws, a bite and a tail, 10*3.5=35 extra damage per round), although Supreme Blade Parry isn't half bad if I go that high in Iron Heart.


Other than that, since you'll have pounce, definitely consider Leading the Charge... +17 damage on all your attacks can mean an extra 200+ points of damage when you're making twelve attacks or so. Plus, it'll help out your party. You can switch to a different stance after the first round of combat as a swift action.

Good point with that last one. Also, yowch.


If you don't like Robilar's to charge up Combat Rhythm off-turn, Martial Study or Martial Stance to pick up some of those Swordsage maneuvers/stances you'll be missing would be a fine choice in its place.

Oh, no, I agree, Robilar's is pretty sweet. I should note, however, with regard to Combat Reflexes (and, by extension, Robilar's), that Dragonborn gives me a -2 Dex penalty. I'm not sure whether that makes CR/RG a bad decision without putting in some heavier Dex investments. Thoughts?

I'm going to start assembling a build around this. While I do, I'd like further thoughts on whether Mithral Body + Wings aspect is worth keeping, or whether I should lose MB but keep Wings, or whether I should switch to Mind and avoid MB altogether.

Again, thanks for all of your input. This has been an excellent learning experience.

UPDATE: I think Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic, grants IUS and Improved Natural Attacks, deals Con damage on a crit) might save me a feat. Would it qualify me for SUS, do you think? Or do item-granted feats not qualify one for proper feats?

[Piggy Knowles]

I was just thinking about this, actually. You put it splendidly. This is a sensible, functional and effective build.

I am curious, however, as to why Warblade was first level. It seems I'd want to take my first Warblade level when my IL was high enough to take higher-level maneuvers out of the gate.

Preference, really. There are some first-level maneuvers that you'll probably want to take anyhow (if you plan on taking anything from Tiger Claw you need to take Wolf Fang Strike, for instance, and some things like Moment of Perfect Mind will be handy for your whole career). You could theoretically start with four levels of Totemist before your first level of Warblade, and get a couple more second level maneuvers, but things like Punishing Stance that are especially good at the low levels lose some of their oomph if you delay them. You also get more HP for starting with Warblade.

(You'll only actually be able to leapfrog to second-level maneuvers, by the way - even if you took all six levels of Totemist before starting Warblade, you'd only end up with IL 4 to start. Warblade earlier also means you get key feats like Stormguard Warrior faster.)


I'll be honest, I'd probably avoid most Tiger Claw, if only because it really requires optimizing jump; but then again, I've never considered how Tiger Claw synergizes with natural weapons. The descriptions on the Mongoose maneuvers sound limiting, though (e.g. Raging Mongoose is limited to "four extra attacks", not four with each weapon, just four overall), so I'm not sure the synergy is that impressive.

Four extra attacks is nothing to sneeze at, especially for a build that is focused on getting as many extra attacks as possible. If you're looking at 12 attacks on a typical routine (four unarmed strikes, one snap kick, one from Boots of Haste, four claws, one bite, one tail), then each encounter you can Raging Mongoose + Time Stands Still for 28 attacks in a single attack routine. That should be enough to rip through most enemies...

In any case, because you're not really worried about strikes, jump checks don't matter for you much. The only maneuver that you might want that requires jump checks is Sudden Leap, for swift action movement. But why won't you be good at jump checks? Dragonborn wings offer a +10 bonus, and with a decent strength and a few ranks, that should be more than enough. Really, I just make sure to have enough of a jump bonus to always hit my max speed via Sudden Leap, and work from there.


Oh, no, I agree, Robilar's is pretty sweet. I should note, however, with regard to Combat Reflexes (and, by extension, Robilar's), that Dragonborn gives me a -2 Dex penalty. I'm not sure whether that makes CR/RG a bad decision without putting in some heavier Dex investments. Thoughts?

Well, taking the Rapid Counter maneuver can help alleviate this for you - you can use Rapid Counter, then your regular AoO. Note that you'll want to use your unarmed strike to make your AoOs from Robilar's, as Snap Kick will kick in for two off-turn attacks every time someone strikes you. If you use those two off-turn attacks to charge up Combat Rhythm from Stormguard Warrior, then you add a flat +10 damage to all your attacks next round, or +20 if they attack you twice. (And remember, as I pointed out above, you might be talking about as many as 28 attacks in a round... this can get BRUTAL very fast.)


UPDATE: I think Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic, grants IUS and Improved Natural Attacks, deals Con damage on a crit) might save me a feat. Would it qualify me for SUS, do you think? Or do item-granted feats not qualify one for proper feats?

By RAW they should, but it tends to fall under "Ask your DM" territory.

[Red Fel]

Preference, really. There are some first-level maneuvers that you'll probably want to take anyhow (if you plan on taking anything from Tiger Claw you need to take Wolf Fang Strike, for instance, and some things like Moment of Perfect Mind will be handy for your whole career). You could theoretically start with four levels of Totemist before your first level of Warblade, and get a couple more second level maneuvers, but things like Punishing Stance that are especially good at the low levels lose some of their oomph if you delay them. You also get more HP for starting with Warblade.

(You'll only actually be able to leapfrog to second-level maneuvers, by the way - even if you took all six levels of Totemist before starting Warblade, you'd only end up with IL 4 to start. Warblade earlier also means you get key feats like Stormguard Warrior faster.)

Hmm... Valid points, all. The extra HP is something, and I can always use Warblade maneuver-swaps to get good stuff from my starters later.


Four extra attacks is nothing to sneeze at, especially for a build that is focused on getting as many extra attacks as possible. If you're looking at 12 attacks on a typical routine (four unarmed strikes, one snap kick, one from Boots of Haste, four claws, one bite, one tail), then each encounter you can Raging Mongoose + Time Stands Still for 28 attacks in a single attack routine. That should be enough to rip through most enemies...

Excellent point. I had forgotten that the Mongoose maneuvers were boosts; that actually goes sickeningly well with this build.


In any case, because you're not really worried about strikes, jump checks don't matter for you much. The only maneuver that you might want that requires jump checks is Sudden Leap, for swift action movement. But why won't you be good at jump checks? Dragonborn wings offer a +10 bonus, and with a decent strength and a few ranks, that should be more than enough. Really, I just make sure to have enough of a jump bonus to always hit my max speed via Sudden Leap, and work from there.

Hmm... Good point. I don't need Jump that badly for some of those maneuvers, and I do fairly well as-is.


Well, taking the Rapid Counter maneuver can help alleviate this for you - you can use Rapid Counter, then your regular AoO. Note that you'll want to use your unarmed strike to make your AoOs from Robilar's, as Snap Kick will kick in for two off-turn attacks every time someone strikes you. If you use those two off-turn attacks to charge up Combat Rhythm from Stormguard Warrior, then you add a flat +10 damage to all your attacks next round, or +20 if they attack you twice. (And remember, as I pointed out above, you might be talking about as many as 28 attacks in a round... this can get BRUTAL very fast.)

Ooh, now there's a wicked little thought. Hold on, though, I'm trying to figure out the mechanics of Rapid Counter... So, you may take a free attack in place of or in addition to a provoked AoO. It doesn't say whether that's a standard or full attack - any idea how much harm I get to inflict with it?


By RAW they should, but it tends to fall under "Ask your DM" territory.

Indeed. Hmm... potential there. A lot of potential.

I'll try to hammer out a proper build tomorrow. I think your points about taking Wbl 1 first are valid, and will probably do that. I still need to decide whether Mithral Body (and Wings aspect) are good choices; I'd welcome input on that particular point.

Thanks again!

UPDATE: See the first page for completed tables and build. Comments welcomed!