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View Full Version : [3.5:PrC] Energon Evoker - Bring the Cold, Fire, Lightning or Decay. (PEACH)



Zakaroth
2013-10-04, 11:10 AM
Class has been revamped and is posted in a new threat. It can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369586-The-Energon-Evoker-Arcane-Destruction-by-Cold-Fire-Lightning-or-Sound-PEACH).

Proud Tortoise
2013-10-07, 05:47 PM
This class seems okay, balance-wise (although I am not an expert in this area). However, it might be somewhat difficult to actually play as one (a cold or negative-energy specialist, for instance, would be pretty useless against undead.) Of course, many sorcerers specialize in a single energy type in any case.

The "energy resistance = level x 5" clause ends up being a little odd at later levels: I don't think anything has resistance 45 to any type of energy. I would suggest either immunity at level 6 or "energy resistance = level x 3".

In the Overchannel description, "casting duration" should be "casting time". Also, I'm not sure what the 10% per two levels actually applies to.

Energy Manifestation, Empowerment and Cataclysm are missing abilities for force and sonic energies, which are mentioned as options for Energon Attunement.

Overall, I quite like this class. I myself have played as the archetypical pyromaniac sorcerer, and this class improves on that kind of thing very effectively.

Zakaroth
2013-10-08, 01:26 PM
This class seems okay, balance-wise (although I am not an expert in this area). However, it might be somewhat difficult to actually play as one (a cold or negative-energy specialist, for instance, would be pretty useless against undead.) Of course, many sorcerers specialize in a single energy type in any case.

At fifth level you gain overwhelming power to deal with this. Allowing the evoker to pierce resistance and immunity.


The "energy resistance = level x 5" clause ends up being a little odd at later levels: I don't think anything has resistance 45 to any type of energy. I would suggest either immunity at level 6 or "energy resistance = level x 3".

Fair point, will look into this.


In the Overchannel description, "casting duration" should be "casting time". Also, I'm not sure what the 10% per two levels actually applies to.

Will fix. Many spells have damage based on CL, but are capped at a certain point. This ability raises the damage cap of a spell. For example; fireball can deal a maximum of 10d6 fire damage, this skill, at class level 10, would increase this to 15d6.


Energy Manifestation, Empowerment and Cataclysm are missing abilities for force and sonic energies, which are mentioned as options for Energon Attunement.

Those mentions are just to exclude these energy types from being cast. It is intended.


Overall, I quite like this class. I myself have played as the archetypical pyromaniac sorcerer, and this class improves on that kind of thing very effectively.

Thanks, and for the feedback of course!

Palanan
2013-10-10, 08:34 PM
Okay, just a few comments, questions and nitpicks here:


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
Energon Attunement (Ex): ...Upon entering this class he selects the energy type (cold, electricity, fire or negative) that matches the spells he used to qualify for this prestige class. From now on he becomes unable to cast spells with any of the descriptors cold, electricity, fire, force, negative and sonic or deals damage of the respective type, with the exception of his chosen one.

So, when selecting an energy type, the force and sonic types are apparently unavailable for attunement, and you mention in your last post that this was deliberate. Is there a reason for this? I didn't see this explained when I read through, and it seems a little odd to exclude sonic in particular, since there are some good sonic spells out there. (Such as Sound Lance, one of my favorites.) And why use negative energy in place of sonic or acid?


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
Arcane Adaption (Ex): The Energon Evoker learns to adept energy spells to match his chosen type.

A couple of minor grammatical points: I would say "adaptation," and I would change the text to "learns to adapt energy spells...."

This feature is essentially energy substitution, yes?


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
Finally, he may also learn spells with the descriptor of the chosen type from the Cleric and Druid spell lists. However, they are cast as arcane spells.

This opens up some interesting options, such as Creeping Cold, Frost Weapon, Numbing Sphere, Mantle of the Icy Soul, etc., just to mention a few cold-themed ones. You could build an entire Energon Evoker from cold- or fire-based druid spells. Is there any particular reason to open it up so widely to these other spell lists?


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
Overchannel (Ex): ...Whenever he cast a spell of his chosen energy type, he may extend its casting time by one step....

Should be "casts a spell," and what does the "one step" refer to?


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
Void Soul [Negative] ...Furthermore, he is nourished by darkness, gaining Fast Healing equal to one third his class level while in magical darkness.

This is an interesting feature, but it seems incredibly situational, unless he hangs out with drow a lot.

:smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
Energy Manipulation (Ex): ...A Energon Evoker gains a number of Manipulation points per day equal to half his class level plus his Charisma modifier.

I assume this is (½ class level) + (Charisma modifier), rather than ½ x (class level + Charisma modifier). That seems fairly straightforward, but you might want to specify if this is half his class level, rounded down. Even though most people will probably assume that, it's nice to have it spelled out.


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
Evoker[']s Grace (Ex): ...When he casts a spell that affects an area, he may exclude up to two 5 ft. squires from harm.

But what if they're unusually tall squires?

:smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
Unyielding Evocations (Ex): Beginning at 7th level, the Bloodsoul Evoker gains a deeper understanding [of] how to focus energy to overwhelm his enemy’s defenses.

--Wait, what?! Who is this "Bloodsoul Evoker" guy?

I'm assuming this is a remnant from the prior version you mentioned in your opening note. Seems to be the only uncorrected instance in the text.


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
Nerveshatter (Electricity) ...Lightning spells leave their targets Electrocuted. An electrocuted creature is stunned for 1 round.

I have a hard time with this definition, because the standard English usage of "electrocute" is to kill by electrical discharge. If that isn't what happens--and "stunned for 1 round" doesn't sound like it--I would suggest choosing another term. Just my inner English major speaking there.


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
Immolation (Fire) ...Fire spells Immolate their targets, causing them to catches on fire, dealing 1 point of fire damage per dice of fire damage the source spell did.

Causes them to catch on fire...and again, an issue with the word choice. Immolation usually implies an all-consuming fire, which two or three extra points of fire damage usually aren't.


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
Energon Cataclysm (Sp): Once per day, as a full-round action, the Energon Evoker can violently channel his energon essence to breach the surrounding world....

"Breach the surrounding world" is a bit of an odd phrase, not sure if it conveys what you're reaching for.

That aside, this is a nice capstone, and certainly epitomizes those mad energy-blasting tendencies we all sometimes feel. I do have one question about this, though: can the Energon Evoker use Evoker's Grace while cataclysming? And can it, perhaps, be extended around larger areas during the cataclysm? Evoker's Grace seems to be a variant of Sculpt Spell, and at 10th level it would be nice to create a larger Pocket O' Safe to protect any friends and allies engaged nearby.

Also, again, on word choice: "cataclysm" usually means something like "the fall of Númenor," the destruction of empires, the sinking of continents, moons impacting on other worlds, etc. etc. The capstone ability is certainly a bad day for anyone standing within 120 feet, but someone on a distant hillside will see a little flash, maybe hear a scream or two. Again, my inner English major suggests another term be used.

And one last comment on this:


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
All creatures affected by the Static Storm are polarized, and as a result they are denied their Reflex save against electricity spells.

I love this. Nice rider effect, and there's good logic behind it.



Overall, this is really cool, and I'd say you've achieved your primary design goal. I can't comment too insightfully on issues of balance or deeper design, but when you absolutely, positively have to blast every [censored] in the room, this is a good choice to do it with.

I especially like the idea of using negative energy to blast undead. That opens up some interesting character ideas...and the look on a vampire's face would be priceless.

:smallbiggrin:

.

Cloud
2013-10-10, 09:01 PM
Just going to throw in my two copper with Palanan that it's really odd that for an arcane class to be able to select negative energy over Acid, Sonic, or even Force.

I can't actually think of any negative energy spells that sorcerers get that deal actual hit point damage, and the negative energy spell you'd want to spam the most, enervate, doesn't particular improve with caster level, nor does it have a saving throw.

I mean negative energy and positive energy despite the name aren't really 'energy' types. I wouldn't count force an energy type really either (or maybe but it's weird and limited), but at least that's an actual descriptor. Negative energy spells don't deal a type of damage, they just deal damage, that just happens to heal undead. ...Heck I can't think of a creature that has resistance to negative energy either as it's not a type. Check out all the negative spells, other than probably some of them being evil, none of them have a descriptor;
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/inflictLightWounds.htm

Zakaroth
2013-10-12, 08:08 AM
Okay, just a few comments, questions and nitpicks here:
So, when selecting an energy type, the force and sonic types are apparently unavailable for attunement, and you mention in your last post that this was deliberate. Is there a reason for this? I didn't see this explained when I read through, and it seems a little odd to exclude sonic in particular, since there are some good sonic spells out there. (Such as Sound Lance, one of my favorites.) And why use negative energy in place of sonic or acid?

The exclusion is mostly because I wanted the class to only manipulate one energy type. This was introduced for both balancing and "fluff". The class would have difficulty fighting against creatures with resistance/immunity against their energy type. Without the exclusion, they could just take a sonic/force spell and it wouldn't matter that much.
Actually, I used to have sonic included, but thought it might be to strong due to it being effective against objects and having almost nothing resistant to it.


A couple of minor grammatical points: I would say "adaptation," and I would change the text to "learns to adapt energy spells...."

This feature is essentially energy substitution, yes?
Good points, will fix. And yes, this is similar to energy substitution that is applied permanently, but slightly expended (removing secondary effects of the energy type).


This opens up some interesting options, such as Creeping Cold, Frost Weapon, Numbing Sphere, Mantle of the Icy Soul, etc., just to mention a few cold-themed ones. You could build an entire Energon Evoker from cold- or fire-based druid spells. Is there any particular reason to open it up so widely to these other spell lists?
Well, mostly because I though it would be an interesting and unique feature. It really allows the character to fully manipulate the chosen energy type. It also mitigates the drawback of having to chose two energy spells at each level, which is quite a tax for a sorc. Furthermore, lighting in particular could really use this, because their aren't that many nice arcane lightning spells. The druid list really expends on this.


Should be "casts a spell," and what does the "one step" refer to?
Yes! will fix. It means a move action would become a standard action, a standard action would become a full-round action, and so on.


This is an interesting feature, but it seems incredibly situational, unless he hangs out with drow a lot.

The negative aspect was inspired by the negative energy plane, which is described as dark hostile void. So, darkness would be natural for a negative energy evoker. You could always pick a Darkness spell, as its not excluded. No that I think of it, I might expend a bit on the darkness part..


I assume this is (½ class level) + (Charisma modifier), rather than ½ x (class level + Charisma modifier). That seems fairly straightforward, but you might want to specify if this is half his class level, rounded down. Even though most people will probably assume that, it's nice to have it spelled out.
That is correct, but sure, I will clarify the description.


But what if they're unusually tall squires?

:smalltongue:

Lol, this made me laugh, nice find. I almost don't want to fix it :smalltongue:


--Wait, what?! Who is this "Bloodsoul Evoker" guy?

I'm assuming this is a remnant from the prior version you mentioned in your opening note. Seems to be the only uncorrected instance in the text.
Yes it is, it somehow slipped through. Will fix.



I have a hard time with this definition, because the standard English usage of "electrocute" is to kill by electrical discharge. If that isn't what happens--and "stunned for 1 round" doesn't sound like it--I would suggest choosing another term. Just my inner English major speaking there.
Ahh, a English major, thats why you seem to read so thoroughly! Its really helpful though, as I am a dyslectic chemist who doesn't have English as his native language.
But you have a fair point. I will adjust it to shocked or something along that line.


Causes them to catch on fire...and again, an issue with the word choice. Immolation usually implies an all-consuming fire, which two or three extra points of fire damage usually aren't.
I think the fire damage is quite a lot. Lets take a fireball for example. At this point, just by Empowering it, it will deal 20d8 points of fire damage (10d6 base > Empower + Overchannel > 20d6 > Great Empowerment > 20d8). Thus the immolation will deal 20 points of extra fire damage at the beginning of the next turn. I did consider the immolation to induce the panicked/frightened, but thought it might be to much balance-wise.


"Breach the surrounding world" is a bit of an odd phrase, not sure if it conveys what you're reaching for.

That aside, this is a nice capstone, and certainly epitomizes those mad energy-blasting tendencies we all sometimes feel. I do have one question about this, though: can the Energon Evoker use Evoker's Grace while cataclysming? And can it, perhaps, be extended around larger areas during the cataclysm? Evoker's Grace seems to be a variant of Sculpt Spell, and at 10th level it would be nice to create a larger Pocket O' Safe to protect any friends and allies engaged nearby.
I did consider this while righting the cataclysms, but kind of forgot about it. Maybe a should let the Evoker's Grace improve at 10th level, allowing him to do this.


Also, again, on word choice: "cataclysm" usually means something like "the fall of Númenor," the destruction of empires, the sinking of continents, moons impacting on other worlds, etc. etc. The capstone ability is certainly a bad day for anyone standing within 120 feet, but someone on a distant hillside will see a little flash, maybe hear a scream or two. Again, my inner English major suggests another term be used.
The idea behind the ability is that you breach the fabric of space so that the energy from an elemental plain (for example; the plane of fire) pours through into whatever plane you are in. I felt that was kind of cataclysmic :smalltongue:. However, I haven't described it that well, due to my mediocre writing skills :smalltongue: Do you maybe have a suggestion?


I love this. Nice rider effect, and there's good logic behind it.
Thanks. Yeah, I kind of prefer things to make some sort of sense based on physics. This is also the reason that I excluded acid from this whole class. I just can't see acid as an energy type. It is, by its definition, a substance that reacts with (some) other substances.


Overall, this is really cool, and I'd say you've achieved your primary design goal. I can't comment too insightfully on issues of balance or deeper design, but when you absolutely, positively have to blast every [censored] in the room, this is a good choice to do it with.

I especially like the idea of using negative energy to blast undead. That opens up some interesting character ideas...and the look on a vampire's face would be priceless.
Good to hear, seems like to goal has been met :smallbiggrin:

I want to thank you a lot for your thorough read, your insights are certainly useful!



=== @Claud ===============================

Just going to throw in my two copper with Palanan that it's really odd that for an arcane class to be able to select negative energy over Acid, Sonic, or even Force.
Yes, so initially I put in sonic and (in a very early draft) force, but removed these due to potential balance issues. Based on these comments, I'm inclined to put back in sonic. Have to think of a sonic cataclysm though...
And acid I just can't live with as an energy type, it's not energy. There is also a problem I have with Force, I don't really get a clear image what Force damage is in D&D. I would say its pure kinetic energy, but based on some spells and its mystical effectiveness against incorporeal creatures, I'm just not to sure what it is.


I can't actually think of any negative energy spells that sorcerers get that deal actual hit point damage, and the negative energy spell you'd want to spam the most, enervate, doesn't particular improve with caster level, nor does it have a saving throw.

I mean negative energy and positive energy despite the name aren't really 'energy' types. I wouldn't count force an energy type really either (or maybe but it's weird and limited), but at least that's an actual descriptor. Negative energy spells don't deal a type of damage, they just deal damage, that just happens to heal undead.
I imagine it as some dark evilish energy type that diminishes any living thing it touches. I just like that idea for some evil char or campaign nemesis. I know only few spells exist, but thats why I added the arcane adaption ability. Just throw some negative energy "fireball".
However, you have spells with the negative descriptor and spells that deal negative energy damage (See the list (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/FindSpell.php) when you select the negative descriptor)

Palanan
2013-10-12, 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by Zakaroth
I think the fire damage is quite a lot. Lets take a fireball for example....the immolation will deal 20 points of extra fire damage at the beginning of the next turn.

Well, 20 points of fire damage is enough to warm up anyone's day. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
Based on these comments, I'm inclined to put back in sonic.

I think adding sonic would be a good move. Sound Lance is perfect for this--a fourth-level cleric spell, 1d8/level.

Also, have you thought about opening up the spell list to include bard spells? There are a number of decent sonic spells for bards, especially in the Spell Compendium.


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
And acid I just can't live with as an energy type, it's not energy.

I've come to agree with this, for essentially the same reasons as you. I like acid spells and acid effects on their own merits, but I have a hard time shoehorning them into any sensible system of energies.


Originally Posted by Zakaroth
I want to thank you a lot for your thorough read, your insights are certainly useful!

Thanks, you're very welcome.

Cloud
2013-10-12, 09:42 PM
Fair enough, though I don't think that list is accurate. While I cannot speak for every spell, for example it lists Desecrate as a [negative] spell. This is false. While we can all agree it probably uses negative energy in some fashion, one will note it's only descriptor is [evil].

There are plenty of 'negative' spells across all the books, but [negative] isn't a descriptor. Perhaps not an issue for your game as you can just say which spells are negative, and which aren't, but someone trying to use this class for their own game, would be completely screwed as there is no [negative] descriptor.

As for why acid is an energy, I think one of the guys from rules compendium said it best;
Acid Energy?
Why is acid an energy type? Well...look over there! A monkey!

Seriously, although acid isn’t what you’d normally consider energy from a scientific standpoint, it behaves in the game very much like fire, cold, sonic, and electricity. Creatures, spells, and magic items deal acid damage. Creatures have acid resistance and immunity. Spells grant acid resistance just like they grant fire resistance. As you can see, acid behaves much more like those other damage types than like weapon damage types. Nothing in the game has resistance to bludgeoning damage—instead, some creatures have damage reduction against bludgeoning attacks. When talking about damage types, we wanted a way to refer to all the damage types that behave in a similar manner. That way we could group them conceptually and allow players to pick from them interchangeably (such as when casting the resist energy spell). “Energy” was the best word for that group.
—Matthew Sernett, designer

...Actually, again, while it's fine for your game, if you wanted to make it usable by others, here is the big problem with using negative energy.

Energy
Abilities and effects that employ one of the five energy types deal energy damage, which can be acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic.

Negative and Positive
Negative energy and positive energy are damage types, but they are not considered energy types the way that acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic are.

Palanan
2013-10-12, 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by Matthew Sernett, Apparently
Seriously, although acid isn’t what you’d normally consider energy from a scientific standpoint, it behaves in the game very much like fire, cold, sonic, and electricity. ...As you can see, acid behaves much more like those other damage types than like weapon damage types.

...because they designed it that way. Acid, in the game, behaves like fire or lightning because it's always been arbitrarily grouped with them, under the same set of mechanics.

You could also make a case (and I'm sure it's been debated before) that "cold" isn't really an energy type either, because cold is how we perceive a loss or absence of heat energy. So there's some variance in how closely the various "energy" types really match up to a formal definition of energy.

You could also make a case for acid being a specialized kind of chemical energy...but that becomes contrived when set next to fire and electricity. To me, acid is the odd one out.

Cloud
2013-10-13, 07:39 AM
Rules Compendium page 48 if you would like to check for yourself, Palanan, the main point of my post though wasn't OMG add acid to your PrC dude it's totally super legit as an energy, just that by rules terms acid is an energy, while negative energy isn't, and related means that negative isn't a descriptor, which means everything that calls for the 'negative descriptor' in this PrC doesn't function as written.

Again not a problem for Zakaroth's game, but if another DM wanted to use the PrC it could be problematic, so I tend to find it helps to have things be square within the rules of the game.

Zakaroth
2013-10-13, 04:36 PM
Well, 20 points of fire damage is enough to warm up anyone's day. :smalltongue:

Hehe, ok, you are clearly not impressed by the whopping 20 points of fire damage. Maybe I should allow the damage per round to stack? Or do you maybe have a suggestion? Like I mentioned, a panic-like effect could work for a creature being immolated, but this might be to strong balance-wise. Not sure what else I could do for a fire effect.


...because they designed it that way. Acid, in the game, behaves like fire or lightning because it's always been arbitrarily grouped with them, under the same set of mechanics.

Exactly. Probably because it was the most convenient way to implement acid as a damage type. However, when you look at the psionic handbooks, the energy powers described in there can only be manifested as cold, fire, electric or sonic (no acid there). Furthermore, when you try to look up evocation spells [acid] you turn up almost empty, which is rather strange if you consider acid an energy type. These seem to indicate that even WotC doesn't really think acid should be considered an energy type.

I find it really illogical to literally call something Negative Energy and than not considering it an energy type. So, I'm just not going along with that :smalltongue:. However, you have a point that this might be unclear to some players/DM's. To clarify things I added an explanatory line at the requirements.