PF Setting: Every class gets magic

[techgorilla]

So i was thinking about the power level and versatility of some characters in a DnD game. And while i feel good with the classes at this point i felt a little bit weird about all the versatility wizards get and how powerful they can become.

While thinking about this "issue" i came up with the idea that maybe all PC classes should have certain magic capabilities at their disposal (Hardly a new thought i'm sure).

The idea was to get every class a pool of spells they can cast that thematicly feet with them. Stuff like Fighters getting Bear's Endurance. A rogue getting Icicle dagger and invisibility. Maybe even giving them some custom spells that feel like the class would use. While maybe eliminating some of this spells from the wizard list.

In a setting where everyone is magical, i wanted to discuss in this thread:

Is there already a version of this?
What are the possible advantages and disadvantages of something like this?
Would this break the game too hard?

I have some thoughts but i would prefer to hear some of you guys that are way more experienced than me in this matters.

Any thoughts?

[Dapple Birch]

Alot will depend on how much magic you want to give to the other classes, and how hard your players will try to break the system. Also just taking a few levels of a caster class already accomplishes this to an extent. Are you looking for something more powerful/versatile than you could achieve by multiclassing?

[OldTrees1]

Some players like limited use abilities. Some players hate limited use abilities. That second type of player is drawn to the mundane classes (and warlock). If you add magic to the mundane classes, it would perhaps be best in the persistent variety rather than the vancian spellcasting variety.

[Dlkpi]

I'm not sure giving each class a few spells (even if those are then taken from the wizard) is going to solve the problem, particularly if you only give them thematically appropriate spells. Sure, spells are powerful, but what makes wizards powerful is their huge versatility - which comes from having a large number of utility spells. Even sorcerers, drawing from the wizard spell list, get a bit of that versatility just by virtue of having access to some really flexible spells (like polymorph any object or mount). So if it's the versatility issue you're looking to address, well, that may not be possible without a major overhaul.

Another issue is the matter of pure power - if you're giving a rogue spells, are they high level spells (in which case, you're making prestige classes like arcane trickster obsolete) or are they low level utility-type spells (in which case, you're not giving your rogue anything they can't get with UMD and wands - or less than wands if you stick to "thematically appropriate" spells)? I know that, playing roguelikes, I've gone for magic items that would give me spells like fly, find the path, the cure spells, true strike, etc - not spells that felt "rogue-like".

And then there's the question of which classes would actually benefit from it. Sure, the fighter can cast "shield" on himself, but his actions are better spent turning goblins into pinatas. So by giving other classes magic, you're just depowering the ones that won't want to use it.

[techgorilla]

@Dapple Birch
I wanted to give them spells are they level without needing them to put levels into wizards. Multiclassing works for low level spells. But i wanted to do something like taking mass bull strength and taking it away from the wizard and giving it to the fighter or barbarian. In a normal multiclass scenario, the fighter would have to get deep into the wizard class to get something like that.

I wanted this idea to work as a general buff to a class. This is why i did not want to just encourage multiclassing. I want a fighter that can use magic without feeling like he has to put a bunch of levels into wizard or sorcerer. So yes i want something more versatile than multiclassing.

@OldTrees1
I never thought of it that way. But even if this is true, i was thinking of giving the non-magical classes stuff like spontaneous casting and at will abilities. Not so much the wizards, preparing and standard action casting.

[OldTrees1]

@techgorilla
I would suggest Passive effects over At Will and strongly suggest At Will over Spontaneous casting.

Maybe the Rogue has a passive 5% miss chance (ala Blur) that increases as they gain levels.
Maybe the Fighter imbues any weapon they touch with Magic Weapon/Greater Magic Weapon as long as they hold it.

[Certified]

For my current game I'm using a system of Tributes. Characters of any class are able to pay tribute to a patron deity. Depending on their alignment and portfolio the Character then gains a gift. This is a one shot spell that remains with the character for up to a week, meaning you need to pay tribute once a week to maintain your gift. Characters can only obtain gifts from their patron deity.

For example at 1st Level the Character may pay preform a ritual requiring 8 hours and 50 gold in materials to their God if they Worshiped the TN God of war they would have access to either: True Strike, or Bless.
Starting at 8th Level they can preform the same ritual sacrificing materials equal to 375 Gold and have access to either: Bull’s Strength or Aid
Finally at 14th level the material costs increase to 1,125 Gold and the character gains access to ether: Magic Vestment or Protection from Energy

Each Tier offers a Domain Spell, or a general ability based on Alignment.

I that same character instead worshiped say the NE undead God that Tier 3 Gift would be either: Animate Dead or Circle Against Good. Which, yes I'm waiting to have my players face off against several cultists that are Fighters and Rogues that reanimate the corpses on the battlefield.

Hope that helps.

[Arbane]

Is there already a version of this?


Yes. it's called RuneQuest, and it's been around since 1970-something.

(Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. The hard part is picking the spells.)

[techgorilla]

@Dlkpi

I was thinking of giving them both low level and high level spells. Your wand comment is very true. But now they would have wands plus the spells they will normally have.

About the prestige classes, i have no doubt that i will make some obsolete. But that does not worry me too much since i am looking to buff this classes. Combining a prestige class into normal progression levels would do just that.

Maybe shield is not worth casting at the expense of 3 or 4 attacks. But i can see rogue wasting an attack to cast invisibility. Or a fighter doing the same to cast a mass bull strength. Depending on the levels of course.

@OldTrees1
I was thinking some of them would be at will and some would be casting. Never thought of permanent, but it makes sense actually.


I am going here from the assumption here that late game wizards are god tier characters and everyone else is below them. I just want to bring everyone to a more leveled playing field when it comes to versatility. That is the base assumption in which i am basing my decision. Also it seems like a cool idea to me.

[Dapple Birch]

I like the idea of taking certain thematic spells out of the wizard or cleric list altogether and making them class features for non magical classes. Things like mass bull's strength or bear's endurance could be reflavored as battle shouts for fighters or barbarians. How well it all works will depend greatly on how much work you're willing to put into the system.

On the plus side you've already got a way to determine appropriate levels these effects from their original caster's list. Be careful of some spells being more or less powerful when on a different class though. For examples look at when spells have their spell-level bumped up or down when they go into a hybrid's list, like the magus, or when they don't go into their list at all.


EDIT: Another thought I just had reading your last post. Wizards are considered very powerful at higher levels but a level one wizard is usually out shone by a competent fighter. Delaying their spell-like abilities(actual spells? supernatural?) until 4th level like a ranger or paladin might be a good idea.

[Prime32]

You could try handing out a single cleric domain...


EDIT: Another thought I just had reading your last post. Wizards are considered very powerful at higher levels but a level one wizard is usually out shone by a competent fighter.O RLY? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm) :smalltongue:

[Hida Reju]

I used a similar house rule once to represent a Xanth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthhttp://) campaign world.

Everyone rolled on a chart to determine what their Magical Talent was. I used lvl 1-4 spells with some modifications. I rolled both the Druid, Cleric and Wizard lists into one chart of about 90 spells and you rolled a D100. A Natural 1 got you SR 12 + Hit Dice against any harmful effect(and a nasty stigma). 91-95 Let you choose what ability you had instead of rolling. 96-100 You were considered a Magician lvl talent and you picked off of a list that included lvl 5 magic and applied a Metamagic feat of either Empower (if damage/healing based) or Extend (if buff based)

Direct Damage/Debuffs spells had no limit per day but had a limit per encounter. Debuffs could be used once per target and Direct Damage once per every 5 rounds.

Buff Spells had no limit per day but reduced duration to a max of 10 Minutes per lvl or whatever was listed. Ones that could be cast on others were very valuable.

Summoning spells could be used multiple times a day but not while the first one was still in effect.

There was no caster classes at all in this universe but I had random magical plants/potions all over the place to do special effects. Use Magical Device was no longer used.

It was fun but damn odd to run since you had to custom build all the monsters to not use standard Progression due to no magical mart bonuses.

Many of the encounters were other NPCs using the same rules.

[Novawurmson]

You could try handing out a single cleric domain...

I tried doing this, once, but several of my players didn't want spells, so I ended up scrapping it. The most optimized character was a Gnome Ranger dual-wielding crossbows. The Rogue was a Shadow Dancer.

I was not a super-experienced DM at the time.

However, I still really like the idea :D

[FlurriesRus]

This sounds incredibly boring. If I want to play a caster (full or partial) I wouldn't chose to play a rogue, monk, fighter, etc. If one or two of your players want to play a non-casting class with some spells feel free to whip something up for them but don't alter all classes.

Either you won't change enough things enough to affect balance to any measurable degree or you'll effectively turn every class into a wizard, cleric, or druid.

[techgorilla]

@Novawurmson

How the **** does one dual wield crossbows. Wouldn't the reloading process mess him up too much?

As far as magic goes, i'm going to see what i can do. Take some spells from the wizards and adding some spell progression to the normal classes and see what i can get.

Thank you all for the feed back.

[Novawurmson]

@Novawurmson

How the **** does one dual wield crossbows. Wouldn't the reloading process mess him up too much?

By RAW, without a 3rd arm? Yeah, it'll mess him up. As I said, I was not a particularly experienced DM at the time. Another player took the Puppet Master feat from the Dragon Magazine Compendium, and for a while, we thought it increased the DC of mind-affecting effects by 5, instead of just increasing the DC of Sense Motive checks to determine someone was being controlled by 5.