[Historical Fantasy / Alt-History] Should I bother changing names?

[EccentricOwl]

I'm working on a historical fantasy setting. Nothing too big; something fun that I want to self-publish. It's a 'historical fantasy' world, as in it's a world that has some very obvious similarities to our world. The map is the same, some of the influential people are the same, many of the beliefs and political developments are the same.

Here are the maps I have now. (I'm no cartographer, and I *am* looking for one. ;) )
http://imgur.com/ytuWfbw <- World Map
http://imgur.com/hzCNyra <- "Western Europe" Map

The intent is to create a world that's at once recognizable to someone who doesn't know too much about history, but at the same time is 'historical' enough that history fans can play in it without having to worry about pesky real-world events; it has a sense of verisimilitude.

I'm worrying about names. I went to the trouble to rename the continents and countries, but now I'm half-doubting it.

Should I even *bother* changing up the names? I thought, "hey, it's not the real world; maybe we should call Miquelon 'France' or refer to Britain as "Albion" or Russia as "Orlov" or Africa as "Asiliah" and so on and so forth. But at the same time, it might be confusing and I don't know if it's worth it.


With the religious movements, I felt obligated to; "The Hierarchy" is less controversial and more freeing than calling it "The Catholic Church."


Whaddya think?

[zabbarot]

How much fantasy are you putting in your history? I figure the more fantastic you make it the more acceptable changing all the names gets. But if it is really just real world Britain with a new name and everyone at the table knows it's Britain it might seem a little pointless.

Honestly I feel the same way about the religions too though :|

[EccentricOwl]

Yeah. I've got another thread discussing the real-world religions; they're something of an amalgam of real-world mythology and theology. I'm kinda enjoying how it's going.

But the nations... I guess that's a good point. Inspired by some books like Eclipse Phase I'm offering a section in the back filled with modifications that you can make to the setting to better fit it to your own personal tastes and needs.

By default, though, there are elves of two breeds, dwarves and goblins, and a long history of magic-users in the world. So I guess it's different enough that you could call everything different... names.

Would it bother you if someone referred to the Kingdom of Castille in said setting?

[zabbarot]

Eh, real names come with expectations. So without looking anything up I would expect that to mean that Castile and Aragon were still two separate entities fighting each other. The only reason I would be bothered would be if I was told we were going to the Kingdom of Castile and it was in the middle of Austria or drastically changed in some other way.

You might have a bit of trouble justifying a similar history with fantasy races shunted into the setting though. It seems like it would be hard to work them in without replacing groups of people with them. I like alt-history though so I would definitely like to hear what you're doing with it.


Edit: actually historic context, Castile makes me think of the wars they fought to push the Muslims out. There was a big push to unify Spain, so I would expect whatever group had the most legitimate claim to be trying to drive everyone else out I guess.

[Ashtagon]

By all means change the names, but go for something really obscure. Miquelon sounds France-esque, but doesn't "translate" in my head. Albion and Hispania are transparently obvious as "poetic" names for England and Spain respectively, and come with much the same baggage attached.

[zabbarot]

Baggage isn't always bad though. Most your setting is already built for you since you're making an Alt-history so using recognizable names saves you some trouble in your storytelling. You don't have to define as much because they have a loose idea of what to expect.

[GybeMark]

Starting with historical names could be a good start, but I think it depends on how much you want to change the "cultures" or rather the "variances in culture" in the campaign.

For instance, in your maps, "Nordamark" and "Skyde" have the same "feel" to the name -- hard consonants, etc. This would make sense if they both had a similar culture (maybe two kingdoms both populated by goblins). It would make less sense though if one was populated by orcs, and the other elves.

My own thought would be to start with existing (or close-enough) names, but as you populate with different culture then feel free to change them. Or even better, if the same historical region had different names in different languages, then pick the one that most closely matches the culture you populate it with. A "Switzerland" type region could be names "Helvetica" if populated by the elves, "Svitz" if populated by dwarves, "Suisse" if human, "Schweiz" if orc, etc.

On a tangential note, I totally get where you're coming from in terms of "our world makes a great model of where cities/resources/conflicts/territories arise form a particular geography". I rarely create continents or other large scale maps for adventures that I host (the PCs aren't interested in what the continent looks like, they're interested in that the land within a 1 day ride of the adventure-of-the-day looks like, and the types of beer that everyone else brought to the game table). I've often use some of the various kingdoms/provinces/holdings/etc of the Holy Roman Empire when I needed a "starting point" for a local area -- the geography is already created, the villages/towns/cities are in logical places, they already have relationships and trade routes with neighbouring lands, etc.

[Malachi Lemont]

If you need some religions that don't come with real-world associations, I made these a little while ago for another setting, but I'm not using them any more, so take your pick. I'd especially recommend the one called the Dark Faith - I put a lot of thought into that one and I'd like to see someone incorporate it into a setting.

The Seekers of the Truth
An ancient religion with well-established roots in nearly every region of the Vast, the Seekers of the Truth remain the most populous. You'll find a Temple of Truth in every village, even in Saiadel, where the faith is discouraged. The Seekers worship no actual gods, but believe in the pursuit of higher knowledge about the world. They see all hardship as a step on the road to discovery. For centuries, the Seekers have been divided nearly in half between two closely related sects, Sky and Earth. Recently, though, a third powerful sect has emerged. Despite their different beliefs, all sects have similar worship services, and an all-male clergy.
-- The Sky Seekers believe that knowledge about spiritual forces, like morality, hope, and fate, is the most important kind of wisdom. They see the weather and atmosphere as the physical manifestation of the spiritual realms. Priests of the Sky Seekers are called Vicars.
-- The Earth Seekers believe that the land itself is the greatest source of wisdom. They pursue a more physical branch of science, interpreting stones, trees, and animals as signals from the Vast. Priests of the Earth Seekers are called Priests or Archpriests.
-- The Heart Seekers aim to pursue social justice rather than abstract knowledge, and only take part in science when it contributes directly to the public good. Some call them heretics, others call them the only True Seekers, and still others appreciate the value of all three branches of the Seekers. Priests are called Goodmasters.

The Wise Wayfarers
The Wise Wayfarers are a missionary religion that travels around the Vast offering free services to those in need. Wayfarers must take a vow of poverty, forsaking all but the most necessary possessions as they travel. They form tight, friendly communities ranging in number from ten to a thousand. Membership among the Wayfarers has been declining recently. Although nearly everyone respects them, few are willing to join.

The Lord and The Lady
The state religion of Saiadel reflects the cultural standards of its people. They worship two Gods - the Lord and the Lady, who they depict as the moral and physical ideal of mankind. The religion reinforces the belief that the body reflects the soul, and only those whose bodies are beautiful and perfectly proportioned can gain the favor of the Lord and the Lady. This religion has a "Heaven" for those who the Gods favor, but it has no "Hell." The unfavorable simply die and return to the earth.

The Dark Faith
The Dark Faith began about five hundred years ago as an obscure cult in a remote corner of Vooln, but through tireless evangelism it has grown to become one of the major religions of the Vast. People of the Dark Faith, believe that trust and respect are ultimately more powerful than fear and intimidation. As a result, their religion forbids any member to touch a weapon or to cause deliberate harm to any individual. In times of war, members of the Dark Faith are notorious draft dodgers, and are often imprisoned and even killed for their beliefs. Clergy members are called "Shadowsire" for men and "Ghostmother" for women. Services always take place at night, which they believe to be far more sacred than the day. They aim to convert the entire world to their faith through peaceful means. Although there are those who have killed in the name of the Dark Faith, these people are not considered true members of the religion. The Dark Faith has loose attitudes toward sex and gender roles, although they do require celibacy among the clergy. They have strong and gruesome beliefs about the afterlife, but share a utopian vision of the future.

The Beckoners
The Beckoners are a radical, sometimes violent group with their minds on the future. They believe that the Vast will soon come to an end, and that it is their job to prepare humanity for its annihilation. By purifying the world, they believe that the chosen few will be gifted with a glorious afterlife. The Beckoners worship a single God whose name is only known by one person in the world, the Oracle of the Sun. The name itself is said to provide direct communication with the God, but only for those who are worthy. If anyone else sees the name, they will burst into flames. This theory has been tested by many heretics. So far it is true.

The Worldwakers
The Worldwakers worship many Gods, whom they believe are scattered throughout the corners of the Vast, waiting to be discovered. They take joy in exploring new lands, regardless of the risks involved. Although they condemn violence and ill will, the Worldwakers have gained an unfortunate reputation as swindlers and thieves in many regions. Their temples are looked at with suspicion, and people outside the religion consider them more of a criminals' guild with a happy face than a genuine faith.

The Silent Stewards
The Silent Stewards, like the Worldwakers, swear allegiance to a multitude of Gods, but they live by an entirely different lifestyle. The Stewards believe that the Gods are far beyond human comprehension, and that the best humanity can do is wait patiently until the Divine plans are revealed. They encourage integrity, grace, and, of course, silence. Rather than preaching their beliefs to the world, the Stewards prefer to lead by example.

My advice: If you want to tell a story about the Catholic Church or Islam or the British Empire, then call them by their proper names. It would be rude not to. On the other hand, if you want to tell a story about a land of your own design that has only hints of real-world history, then it demands a fresh batch of names. Which I would be more than willing to help you with. Granted, names are not the most important part of world-building, but they can often be the most enjoyable part for me.

Oh, and one more thing.
Am I the only one who's sick of hearing England called Albion? If you were from New York, would you like for me to start randomly calling it New Amsterdam?

[Ashtagon]

Baggage isn't always bad though. Most your setting is already built for you since you're making an Alt-history so using recognizable names saves you some trouble in your storytelling. You don't have to define as much because they have a loose idea of what to expect.

It depends on how much knowledge of history players have. For example, if I know that I'm in a game-country called Albion and the game-year is 1666, I'll be sure to stay away from alt-London. A transparently poetic version of the country's name will create unreasonable expectations that the parallel be far closer than the GM might have been planning for.

Albion etymologically derives from the "White Cliffs" of Dover, while Britain derives from Prydain, a Celtic word referring to the south-west part (famous for tin mines in ancient times). Suppose first contact had been from around the Hampshire area instead? Might we not find the island known today as "Great Belga" (after the belgae tribe), with the southern part of the United Provinces of the Netherlands referred to as "Little Belga"?

Equally, if there were an island off the north-west coast of Miquelon called "Nieue Saxonie", I'd have no such expectations that it would be a precise parallele of historical England.

Basically, it's possible to rename things in such a way as to maintain a real connection , without forcing the name to evoke a false expectation among history buffs.

[Protocol]

Albion etymologically derives from the "White Cliffs" of Dover, while Britain derives from Prydain, a Celtic word referring to the south-west part (famous for tin mines in ancient times). Suppose first contact had been from around the Hampshire area instead? Might we not find the island known today as "Great Belga" (after the belgae tribe), with the southern part of the United Provinces of the Netherlands referred to as "Little Belga"?

But mythologically, the isle is called "Albion" when it's owned by the giants and then renamed "Britain" when it's conquered by men from Spain or possibly Greece.

So if the setting's being derived from mythology, those are the options you have.

[EccentricOwl]

Thanks for the feedback.

So, I'm starting to think that maybe I'll change most of the names, but have more radical departures for regions and nations that have more radically departed from history.

I wanted to portray France as more technologically advanced than it was at the time, Britain as being a different place... unfortunately, finding alternate names can sometimes just be *hard*.

[EccentricOwl]

It's hard to come up with interesting-sounding names for Britain and France.

[Malachi Lemont]

It's hard to come up with interesting-sounding names for Britain and France.

Here are some names I came up with that sound like real countries but aren't:

Norveria, Jorcosa, Santuria, Palorany, Denotan, Estotan, Andimica, Coniland, Uraland, Deniaca, Mauriban, Elvamany, Joriland, Elederia, Ausocary, Malilica, Taneica, Bosthary

Good luck!

[Ashtagon]

It's hard to come up with interesting-sounding names for Britain and France.

Miquelon sounds fine. And what's wrong with "Great Saxony"?

[Alexkubel]

My own thought would be to start with existing (or close-enough) names, but as you populate with different culture then feel free to change them. Or even better, if the same historical region had different names in different languages, then pick the one that most closely matches the culture you populate it with. A "Switzerland" type region could be names "Helvetica" if populated by the elves, "Svitz" if populated by dwarves, "Suisse" if human, "Schweiz" if orc, etc.

On a tangential note, I totally get where you're coming from in terms of "our world makes a great model of where cities/resources/conflicts/territories arise form a particular geography". I rarely create continents or other large scale maps for adventures that I host (the PCs aren't interested in what the continent looks like, they're interested in that the land within a 1 day ride of the adventure-of-the-day looks like, and the types of beer that everyone else brought to the game table). I've often use some of the various kingdoms/provinces/holdings/etc of the Holy Roman Empire when I needed a "starting point" for a local area -- the geography is already created, the villages/towns/cities are in logical places, they already have relationships and trade routes with neighbouring lands, etc.

fist of all... I agree, you could go as far as different races give the place different names.

on the other part I agree with all but the beer part (we aren't drinkers) geography matter to me as we have trains, planes, cars roads etc. but mostly a tank so knowing where rivers and the bridges are is important. (not all bridges can hold a 60 ton behemoth)

[Bryan1108]

I tried this and it can be a little exhaustive finding names for everything. Then again, I had a campaign that spanned a good part of the world, including the Americas.

The truth is that most places have old names that are as good as anything original.

England = Albion
France = Gaul
Japan = Nepon
Etc.