vow of X [BOED]

[Somensjev]

would a character with all of the vow of x feats be any good?

if so, what classes might people suggest for a character like that?

and how would you make a character with as many of those feats as you can? preferably at ecl 6?

are these feats any good in your eyes?

thank you for any answers, i look forward to reading the responses :smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

Most of the Vow of X feats are really situational save-boosters, so a character wouldn't take them in general. Vow of Nonviolence is pretty nice for save-based casters though.

[Somensjev]

Most of the Vow of X feats are really situational save-boosters, so a character wouldn't take them in general. Vow of Nonviolence is pretty nice for save-based casters though.

i realise they're pretty situational, at best, but i was looking over them, and wondering if it's possible to make a viable character using lots/all of them (mostly to stop me doing stupid things) :smallredface:

[Mando Knight]

i realise they're pretty situational, at best, but i was looking over them, and wondering if it's possible to make a viable character using lots/all of them (mostly to stop me doing stupid things) :smallredface:

If you take lots of the vows, you will be doing stupid things in order to keep them while staying with the party.

[Ranting Fool]

If you take lots of the vows, you will be doing stupid things in order to keep them while staying with the party.

I know a Knight PC who took a few vows. Hasn't been a major pain (other then his already knightly-ness)

So Knight / Pally / Already Strict code which already acts along the lines of the vows already could be a good place to start looking.

Can't remember most of the Vows of X of the top of my head though. :smallbiggrin:

[Somensjev]

If you take lots of the vows, you will be doing stupid things in order to keep them while staying with the party.

i realise i'll be doing strange things, but trust me, i called myself chaotic stupid for a reason; starting brawls, attempted genocide, stealing from the rogue because he sold my stuff, attempting to kill said rogue, with my raven familiar, eating strange glowing moss, etc

i figure with the feats in place it'll at least remind me that if i do stuff like that i have good chance of losing a feat that i can't get back without chaos shuffle

and it might be fun playing a character with strict rules, who drinks water through a strainer, etc

[Somensjev]

I know a Knight PC who took a few vows. Hasn't been a major pain (other then his already knightly-ness)

So Knight / Pally / Already Strict code which already acts along the lines of the vows already could be a good place to start looking.

Can't remember most of the Vows of X of the top of my head though. :smallbiggrin:

i actually dont much like the mechanics of kinght/pally, so i'd prefer to stray from them
and the feats are; sacred vow, vow of poverty, vow of nonviolence, vow of peace, vow of abstinance, vow of chastity, vow of obedience, and vow of purity

[Ranting Fool]

i actually dont much like the mechanics of kinght/pally, so i'd prefer to stray from them
and the feats are; sacred vow, vow of poverty, vow of nonviolence, vow of peace, vow of abstinance, vow of chastity, vow of obedience, and vow of purity

I've been told Vow of poverty isn't worth it/only works with some classed.
Vow of abstinance (I've always wondered if that counts Magic Potions)

[Somensjev]

I've been told Vow of poverty isn't worth it/only works with some classed.
Vow of abstinance (I've always wondered if that counts Magic Potions)

only if potions are, intoxicating, stimulating, depressant, or hallucinogenic

[Doc_Maynot]

I like to use them with the Healer class from Miniatures Handbook. Works with Vow of Nonviolence/Peace cause it gives them a defense mechanic and an ability to be a mobile bastion mid combat so they can get in and heal their allies.

[KevlarTheD]

I don't have too much ACTUAL experience with these, but I've designed a few characters over the years with these feats in mind.

So far as I can tell, Vow of Poverty is the most effective with the level scaling abilities. It has good synergy with the Monk or Druid class and other classes that don't use weapons. Wizards don't benefit as much as you'd think, because they make heavy use of material components, wands and scrolls, and the like. Multiclassing to Barbarian for Rage is probably a good idea at some point as well.

There are some prestige classes, such as Fist of the Forest, that have very similar restrictions on behavior and possessions. They also mesh very well in terms of story/background AND in terms of mechanics.

Two things to definitely look into:
Races: Feral template on Anthropomorphic Animals (good natural attacks)
Classes: Fist of the Forest PrC. Get into it through monk or ranger? Try an unarmed Ranger variant combat style? I know that exists somewhere.

That's about all I can give you. Hope it helps!

[Big Fau]

i realise they're pretty situational, at best, but i was looking over them, and wondering if it's possible to make a viable character using lots/all of them (mostly to stop me doing stupid things) :smallredface:

"Situational" nothing. Vow of Abstinence flat-out does not work more than once. Vow of Celibacy is completely unnecessary for protection from Charm effect. Vow of Poverty just plain sucks. You also have to spend 2 feats just to get the actual Vow you wanted to use.

[Namfuak]

i actually dont much like the mechanics of kinght/pally, so i'd prefer to stray from them
and the feats are; sacred vow, vow of poverty, vow of nonviolence, vow of peace, vow of abstinance, vow of chastity, vow of obedience, and vow of purity

Druids and totemists are pretty viable VoP users, totemist might have a bit more trouble with vow of nonviolence but a druid ought to be able to stick to buffing and maybe non-damaging BFC. The main problem is the vow of nonviolence penalty to your party, though if they are all good it might be OK, and Vow of Peace sort of follows in that vein but if your party is all good they shouldn't have much of a problem using your battlefield control to capture enemies rather than kill them.

[Somensjev]

"Situational" nothing. Vow of Abstinence flat-out does not work more than once. Vow of Celibacy is completely unnecessary for protection from Charm effect. Vow of Poverty just plain sucks. You also have to spend 2 feats just to get the actual Vow you wanted to use.

i said situational "at best" :smalltongue:
and trust me, it's much better than the alternative, of me actually looking for a feat in a book somewhere, for every level. i make some weird things, especially when the rules get iffy


and fortunately for me, i dont have to worry about my party adapting to my vows of whatever, they're used to some pretty strange things :smallwink:

[Stux]

While you might think VoP would be good for a monk, it's actually a trap. Monk's need magic items to get a decent AC etc. precisely because they can't use armour and weapons. Thus VoP actually hurts them more than it does other classes. It depends how optimised the game will be and what kind of magic level the setting is though, because granted thematically it is a good fit.

[Rubik]

So far as I can tell, Vow of Poverty is the most effective with the level scaling abilities. It has good horrible synergy with the Monk Fixed that for you. Monks need magic items more than virtually any other class in the game. They need numerical bonuses, yes, but they need special abilities at least as much, if not more, and Vow of Poverty destroys the very possibility of getting them.

[Somensjev]

would a human human paragon 1 / druid 1 / human paragon 3 / druid 3 be ok?
i thought of it because i remembered that human paragon got a second bonus feat, so i could have every vow by level 6, and the second two levels increase spellcasting of one spell casing class i have, so i don't lose out too much from the druid side (although, the animal companion and wildshape arent as good, it's either weaker, or i dont get it, but that's fine with me)

does that sound like an ok build? or is there anything that might be better?

[Rubik]

would a human human paragon 1 / druid 1 / human paragon 3 / druid 3 be ok?
i thought of it because i remembered that human paragon got a second bonus feat, so i could have every vow by level 6, and the second two levels increase spellcasting of one spell casing class i have, so i don't lose out too much from the druid side (although, the animal companion and wildshape arent as good, it's either weaker, or i dont get it, but that's fine with me)

does that sound like an ok build? or is there anything that might be better?Druids only really need one feat to be super-effective, so I'd just go human (possibly with flaws) and don't bother with human paragon, since druid 20 will be so much more effective it's not even funny, with or without the vows.

[Doc_Maynot]

While you might think VoP would be good for a monk, it's actually a trap. Monk's need magic items to get a decent AC etc. precisely because they can't use armour and weapons. Thus VoP actually hurts them more than it does other classes. It depends how optimised the game will be and what kind of magic level the setting is though, because granted thematically it is a good fit.

If you go by AC, the Vow grants +15 AC directly, and +7 from ability scores (Assuming that you put the two highest in WIS and DEX), not to mention DR 10/evil, energy resistance 15, regeneration 1, and pretty much free access to the saint template, which grants and additional wis-based bonus to AC, Fast Healing equal to half your HD, Immunity to Acid, cold, electricity, and petrification, and the double strength magic circle against evil, and lesser globe of invulnerability toggleable, at-will. Sure it's not super when it is compared to magic items, but it can help out a decent bit.

[bekeleven]

If you want all the vows, just start with the one that gives you a pile of exalted feats as you level. No need to take non-druid levels.

[Somensjev]

Druids only really need one feat to be super-effective, so I'd just go human (possibly with flaws) and don't bother with human paragon, since druid 20 will be so much more effective it's not even funny, with or without the vows.

that's the problem, druids are tier one, they just walk up to a creature, point at it, and it's gonna die soon, who knows how, but it will
whereas i want a character, who could do that, but has all these things stopping him from just doing it when it conveniences him (if at all)

i just picked druid because it doesnt need items, and i like the fluff, i'm trying to design my character to not be a powerhouse

[Rubik]

that's the problem, druids are tier one, they just walk up to a creature, point at it, and it's gonna die soon, who knows how, but it will
whereas i want a character, who could do that, but has all these things stopping him from just doing it when it conveniences him (if at all)

i just picked druid because it doesnt need items, and i like the fluff, i'm trying to design my character to not be a powerhouseHow about totemist? They're excellent martial characters, they gain a lot of special abilities and numbers with their soulmelds, their class abilities interfere with magical items anyway, and they have similar fluff to druids.

[Somensjev]

If you want all the vows, just start with the one that gives you a pile of exalted feats as you level. No need to take non-druid levels.

in my build i did, i took sacred vow, and vow of poverty at first level (vow of poverty gives you a bonus exalted feat at first level, and every second level after)

it was sort of like this
h - human feat/human paragon feat
1st/2nd/3rd = feats from class levels
e = exalted feats

H: sacred vow
1st: vow of poverty
E: vow of nonviolence



2nd: vow of peace
E: vow of chastity
H: vow of abstinence


E: vow of obedience

3rd: vow of purity

[Asrrin]

If you go by AC, the Vow grants +15 AC directly, and +7 from ability scores (Assuming that you put the two highest in WIS and DEX), not to mention DR 10/evil, energy resistance 15, regeneration 1, and pretty much free access to the saint template, which grants and additional wis-based bonus to AC, Fast Healing equal to half your HD, Immunity to Acid, cold, electricity, and petrification, and the double strength magic circle against evil, and lesser globe of invulnerability toggleable, at-will. Sure it's not super when it is compared to magic items, but it can help out a decent bit.

No flying, no mind blank, no teleport, no fast movement, no out of combat utitlity. Those are all very important to have for practically every character.

[Somensjev]

How about totemist? They're excellent martial characters, they gain a lot of special abilities and numbers with their soulmelds, their class abilities interfere with magical items anyway, and they have similar fluff to druids.

not a big fan of soulmelds (at least, not yet, i probably will be at some point)
i like spell casting, and i like druids, so i figure it's a nice chance to test this out (besides, i can always revert to a healbot if needed, so i won't get too many destructive urges, i hope)

[Yuki Akuma]

It should be noted that taking Vow of Poverty as a Druid, Incarnate or Totemist doesn't make you better than the same character with full WBL (and, actually, at level 20, all the Vow features are worth less than the wealth you should have by then).

It's just that those classes can still be awesome while gimped by the Vow.

[Doc_Maynot]

They become immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and alignment discernment attempts at level 8, and immunity to mental control. Effectively Mind Blank.

Flying and teleport, They can still benefit from spells cast on them, other than that I'll admit, I got nothing. If anything, they don't need to breathe so you can just stuff them into the bag of holding during transit.

And out of combat usefulness, monks have that? Like seriously, there's a magic item that can make them useful outside of combat?:smalleek:

[Stux]

If you go by AC, the Vow grants +15 AC directly, and +7 from ability scores (Assuming that you put the two highest in WIS and DEX), not to mention DR 10/evil, energy resistance 15, regeneration 1, and pretty much free access to the saint template, which grants and additional wis-based bonus to AC, Fast Healing equal to half your HD, Immunity to Acid, cold, electricity, and petrification, and the double strength magic circle against evil, and lesser globe of invulnerability toggleable, at-will. Sure it's not super when it is compared to magic items, but it can help out a decent bit.

Oh yeah all that stuff definitely helps. It's just that the penalties of VoP don't really hurt a lot of casters very much, but they actually do hurt the monk loads. Which is pretty unfair haha.

If your setting is low wealth/low magic then VoP becomes much better though.

[Somensjev]

It should be noted that taking Vow of Poverty as a Druid, Incarnate or Totemist doesn't make you better than the same character with full WBL (and, actually, at level 20, all the Vow features are worth less than the wealth you should have by then).

It's just that those classes can still be awesome while gimped by the Vow.

that's pretty much the point, i dont want my character to be broken in either direction, i want him to be playable, and useful to the party (most of the time at least)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're going to take all the vows, just be sure to get Vow of Poverty first, and only spend your bonus exalted feats on the others.

Beguiler into Apostle of Peace and then Mystic Theurge actually works out well with Vow of Peace/Nonviolence, and the other vows won't be much of a hindrance to him either.

If you have someone in the party who has the authority to give defeated-but-not-dead opponents a lawful trial and execution on the spot, it gets around the Vow of Nonviolence drawback on the party. Finishing off a helpless or defenseless foe and lawfully executing a criminal condemned to death are not the same thing.

[Somensjev]

They become immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and alignment discernment attempts at level 8, and immunity to mental control. Effectively Mind Blank.

Flying and teleport, They can still benefit from spells cast on them, other than that I'll admit, I got nothing. If anything, they don't need to breathe so you can just stuff them into the bag of holding during transit.

And out of combat usefulness, monks have that? Like seriously, there's a magic item that can make them useful outside of combat?:smalleek:

isnt there some RAW sillyness (one of the many dysfunctions i believe) that states that you cant have a living creature in a bag of holding, and it makes no special mention to creatures that dont breathe?
at least, no longer than 10 mins

[Doc_Maynot]

isnt there some RAW sillyness (one of the many dysfunctions i believe) that states that you cant have a living creature in a bag of holding, and it makes no special mention to creatures that dont breathe?
at least, no longer than 10 mins

Only enough air to last 10 minutes, nothing more. At least to my recollection the dysfunction lies in that it's 10 minutes per no matter how many creatures are in said bag..

[herrhauptmann]

only if potions are, intoxicating, stimulating, depressant, or hallucinogenic

So no potions of haste then. :D

[Somensjev]

So no potions of haste then. :D

i think i'd cout them as stimulating
some kind of super-coffee :smallwink:

would it be against the requirements to collect loose gold, and use it to build homes and schools? (probably is, but i think a few people would allow it)

[Stux]

It would depend on your DM's interpretation really. You can't own anything material (beyond the very limited exceptions - simple clothes, enough food for one day etc.), but if you have money forced upon you I don't see why you couldn't transport it somewhere you could donate it, as long as you don't consider it 'yours' or attempt to gain anything from it.

[Urpriest]

i think i'd cout them as stimulating
some kind of super-coffee :smallwink:

would it be against the requirements to collect loose gold, and use it to build homes and schools? (probably is, but i think a few people would allow it)

In a way, it's actually something you're required to do. Vow of Poverty characters have to get an equal share of the treasure, and then just donate all of it.

[lunar2]

No flying, no mind blank, no teleport, no fast movement, no out of combat utitlity. Those are all very important to have for practically every character.

flight, mind blank, and teleport are only needed in mid op or higher campaigns. it doesn't actually hurt a high level character to walk to their destination, or to depend on their will save to resist charms and compulsions.

fast movement is easy enough to get without magic items (race, class, or feats can all increase speed permanently, and spells can do so temporarily).

out of combat utility: pretty much everyone has at least one social skill on their class skill list, and VoP characters have the ability scores to back up those skill ranks.

[Gemini476]

flight, mind blank, and teleport are only needed in mid op or higher campaigns. it doesn't actually hurt a high level character to walk to their destination, or to depend on their will save to resist charms and compulsions.

fast movement is easy enough to get without magic items (race, class, or feats can all increase speed permanently, and spells can do so temporarily).

out of combat utility: pretty much everyone has at least one social skill on their class skill list, and VoP characters have the ability scores to back up those skill ranks.

Flight: Used for hitting flying enemies and/or avoiding ground hazards. If you use a bow, you have either specialized in it (and are doing decent-ish damage) or not (and doing very little damage).

Mind Blank: Blocks Divination, Dominate Person and Charm Person, along with every single other Mind-Affecting spell. Stuff like Wierd. Do you find it fun when a enemy Wizard mind-controls you so that you fight your party? Neither do I.

Teleport: More than just travel, tactical teleportation is the important thing. You can only Full Attack as a Full Action, after all, unless you pick up Pounce. It's also useful for escaping large Battlefield Control spells, like Black Tentacles, Web, or that Druid spell that creates a volcano. Or Maw of Chaos, since 20d6/turn is something you want to get out of as fast as possible.
Teleportation also lets you get out of range of scary abilities without moving through the terrain in-between and maybe taking an AoO.

Haste doesn't stack with the Monk's Fast movement, by the way.

Out of Combat Utility: Could you crunch some numbers on that? I somehow doubt it'll be that great. Also, the Monk doesn't really get enough skill points for that.

[nolongerchaos]

I had a Vow of Poverty/Nonviolence/Peace Bard. It worked well enough as bards have plenty of options that don't directly involve dealing damage themselves.

[lunar2]

Flight: Used for hitting flying enemies and/or avoiding ground hazards. If you use a bow, you have either specialized in it (and are doing decent-ish damage) or not (and doing very little damage).

Mind Blank: Blocks Divination, Dominate Person and Charm Person, along with every single other Mind-Affecting spell. Stuff like Wierd. Do you find it fun when a enemy Wizard mind-controls you so that you fight your party? Neither do I.

Teleport: More than just travel, tactical teleportation is the important thing. You can only Full Attack as a Full Action, after all, unless you pick up Pounce. It's also useful for escaping large Battlefield Control spells, like Black Tentacles, Web, or that Druid spell that creates a volcano. Or Maw of Chaos, since 20d6/turn is something you want to get out of as fast as possible.
Teleportation also lets you get out of range of scary abilities without moving through the terrain in-between and maybe taking an AoO.

Haste doesn't stack with the Monk's Fast movement, by the way.

Out of Combat Utility: Could you crunch some numbers on that? I somehow doubt it'll be that great. Also, the Monk doesn't really get enough skill points for that.

flight: straight out of the MM flying encounters aren't going to be out damaging the party by much, so long as you've got a good bow or a sling/ thrown weapon.

mind blank: in a low-mid op campaign, NPC wizards don't use those spells any more often than PCs (not very often). will saves are good enough to counter that.

teleport: you're thinking optimized. i specified that it wasn't important in lower op games. the type of games that in my experience, most players tend to play. not going stormwind or anything here. i'm not saying that low op is better or that high op is bad, just that in my experience low op is more common, and in low op this isn't a big deal.

haste: true. haste doesn't do anything at all for a monk. but a monk already ends up faster than someone with haste, iirc.

out of combat utility: that depends on many factors, such as starting ability scores, race, and whether or not the intelligence bonus from VoP counts as a permanent increase (i've always seen it ruled as such, since it comes from a feat, not an item). monks get 4 base skill points/level, and will probably pick up at least one or two more with little effort (such as by being human). they don't actually need 6 different skills, so they can spare one or two for social situations.

[Urpriest]

flight: straight out of the MM flying encounters aren't going to be out damaging the party by much, so long as you've got a good bow or a sling/ thrown weapon.


Like...what? Most Dragons can outdamage non-specialized people with their breath weapons, anything with nontrivial SLAs can screw people up at range, any mount in the MM with an archer on it will outdamage the party's archers, as will any caster from the MM...what sort of monsters are you thinking of, birds or something?

[Ortesk]

Only good character i've played/seen with vows is a diplomancer. Works well, but i know its really well known and over done as is, So.....

[Deophaun]

Vow of Purity is basically incompatible with Vow of Poverty:

If you fight undead creatures or accidentally touch dead flesh, you must purify yourself in a special ritual that requires 1 hour and a flask of holy water.
Flasks of holy water a) cost money and b) are not on the excepted list of things VoP characters can handle.

[Chronos]

Vow of Poverty doesn't allow a bow, just simple weapons. Which means, as a monk, that you'd be restricted to a sling, nothing else, to hit flying enemies. If you're fighting, oh, say, any dragon at all, just how useful do you think a sling is going to be? And it's not just dragons: Anything that flies and has a ranged attack will be completely unbeatable to a VoP monk. Manticore, chimera, archers mounted on hippogriffs, whatever.

[Gemini476]

flight: straight out of the MM flying encounters aren't going to be out damaging the party by much, so long as you've got a good bow or a sling/ thrown weapon.

mind blank: in a low-mid op campaign, NPC wizards don't use those spells any more often than PCs (not very often). will saves are good enough to counter that.

teleport: you're thinking optimized. i specified that it wasn't important in lower op games. the type of games that in my experience, most players tend to play. not going stormwind or anything here. i'm not saying that low op is better or that high op is bad, just that in my experience low op is more common, and in low op this isn't a big deal.

haste: true. haste doesn't do anything at all for a monk. but a monk already ends up faster than someone with haste, iirc.

out of combat utility: that depends on many factors, such as starting ability scores, race, and whether or not the intelligence bonus from VoP counts as a permanent increase (i've always seen it ruled as such, since it comes from a feat, not an item). monks get 4 base skill points/level, and will probably pick up at least one or two more with little effort (such as by being human). they don't actually need 6 different skills, so they can spare one or two for social situations.

This got way too long, but I'll leave it here. For reference, a lot of things are overpowered in low-op despite being distinctly underpowered in even slightly higher optimization. Monk stops being relevant after level 6, for instance, and Vow of Poverty is only powerful in levels low enough that non-touch AC is still useful. Also, the ability bonuses it gives are the same as items give. They aren't permanent. You can also lose them if you pick up and throw an enchanted rock, so they definitely aren't permanent. Also also, why on earth are you putting stat boosts into Intelligence?


Flight: Dragons. Beholders. Ghosts, Nightwings and other flying undead. Any mage with Fly and a ranged spell, Warlocks with Fell Flight, or Fighters with items that allow flight and a bow.Imagine, if you will, the party ineffectually trying to hit a dragon as it does the smart thing and strafes you with its breath weapon from a distance. Yeah. Even if it doesn't come up often, it's devastating when it does.
Or, alternatively, a Wizard standing on top of his tower and casting spells down at you, like some kind of spellcasting Saruman.

Teleport: Point. It's still terribly useful, though. Got an unpassable obstacle? *Poof* now you don't. It's got out-of-combat utility as well. Also, in Low Op a lot of things aren't a big deal, like everything after, say, level 6. And Low-Op Wizards are blasters while the Fighter goes sword-and-board and utterly fails to challenge any CR10+ enemy.

Haste:That still doesn't solve the issue of, if you take a Monk, the inability to move up to an opponent and then Flurry in the same turn. It also forces the party Wizard to spend more spells on you, and you're not even allowed to buy him a Pearl of Power to make up for the slot. Fast movement is not only Fast Movement but can also be items such as the Belt of Battle, which gives you additional actions.

Out of Combat Utility: VoP gives you a +15AC bonus that doesn't stack with armor bonuses, a +5 enhancement bonus to attack and damage, +3 to all saves, and +6/+4/+4/+2 enhancement bonuses to four ability scores (doesn't stack with other enhancement bonuses), DR10/evil, Resistance 15 to stuff, freedom of movement, and True Seeing. That's not a bad list, of course, but it really misses some things. Things that are really cheap magic items, like weapon enhancements that aren't just +X. Like Ghost Touch. And +5 only brings you up to the level of a naked Full BAB class, and they're less MAD.
You aren't going to put any bonus in Int 'cause you're MAD enough already, so that's probably 5 skill points at most. So what, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot? Or do you want Escape Artist, Listen, or one of the other skills? You also have a maximum of +30 (more realistically +28) to a skill check at level 20, which is much less impressive when you aren't allowed to read books, use Tomes, get +2 from a Masterwork Tool, or use something like the Ring of Improved Climbing (+10 competence to climbing).

Oh, and don't forget that by using the vow you can't use any items that may help you - you aren't allowed to use Potions, for example. And depending on which Exalted feats you take you will need to be worse than the worse Paladin to your party if you want to keep your Vows. Lawful trials and all that.

Vow of Poverty isn't unusably bad, but it requires a class that can handle its own without items. A Monk is not that class.

For reference, a level 20 Monk with VoP is doing 2d10+5+Str damage, and the average HP for a CR 20 monster is 409HP. With 18 Strength, you will defeat it in 21 attacks. You have +24 to hit, and it has an AC of 36... So each turn is doing 3*(0,45*20)+(0,2*20)+(0,05*20)=32 damage. That's a thirteenth of the monster's health, so for a party of four VoP monks that's a solid four turns of beating down on it. For an encounter that is supposed to be easy, since CR=ECL is supposed to not be that challenging.
A low-op THF Greatsword barbarian, on the other hand, likely has 24 Strength by now. He's doing 2d6+15 damage at +32 to hit, or 2d6+21 damage at +36 to hit when raging. Each turn, that's 22+(0,8*22)+(0,55*22)+(0,3*22)=58,3 damage. On his own, that's nine turns to kill the monster. However, two barbarians will kill it in five turns, and three barbarians are easily outdamaging the VoP party.

Or let's take a non-VoP monk, rather low-op. He grabs a Amulet of Mighty Fists, makes it +5 Flaming Frost Ghost Touch and also grabbing some +8 Bracers of Armor as well as a Monk's Belt because why not. He does 2d10+5+2d6+4 damage, or an average of 27 versus the VoP monk's 20. He can also grab items that give him Freedom of Movement and True Seeing, and he's got most of the big abilities already. He's behind 5 on AC... But AC really ceases to matter much after a certain level. He can also act in non-Exalted ways, pick up, handle, and UMD items, use a Scorpion Kama if he so wishes, or put dancing or throwing on his Unarmed Strikes.



Someone else who is more used to the monk might be able to point out more things, but yeah. The monk needs items badly. Even just having a Battlefist increases damage from 2d10(11) to 4d8(18), with Improved Natural Attack pushing those further to 4d8 and 8d6(28) respectively. And the non-VoP monk can get Improved Natural Attack(Unarmed Strike) on a ring, by the way. He can also get psionic tattoos, those tattoos that boost monk abilities, various items that help with dungeon-crawling (spider-climb, anyone?)
Or he can grab some items that boost his skill checks and instantly be better at those skills than the VoP monk, who has the same bonuses minus items!

[Augmental]

If you go by AC, the Vow grants +15 AC directly, and +7 from ability scores (Assuming that you put the two highest in WIS and DEX), not to mention DR 10/evil, energy resistance 15, regeneration 1, and pretty much free access to the saint template, which grants and additional wis-based bonus to AC, Fast Healing equal to half your HD, Immunity to Acid, cold, electricity, and petrification, and the double strength magic circle against evil, and lesser globe of invulnerability toggleable, at-will. Sure it's not super when it is compared to magic items, but it can help out a decent bit.

None of that improves the monk's offense, though.

[lunar2]

Like...what? Most Dragons can outdamage non-specialized people with their breath weapons, anything with nontrivial SLAs can screw people up at range, any mount in the MM with an archer on it will outdamage the party's archers, as will any caster from the MM...what sort of monsters are you thinking of, birds or something?

actually, i was thinking of the yrthak. i've always seen dragons played as ground monsters, not flyers. also, a mount with an archer is not "straight from the MM", which is what i specified. SLA's are, of course, countered by your own party's casters. each and every character does not need to be able to solo each and every type of encounter, so long as they can contribute in some way.

[Gemini476]

actually, i was thinking of the yrthak. i've always seen dragons played as ground monsters, not flyers. also, a mount with an archer is not "straight from the MM", which is what i specified. SLA's are, of course, countered by your own party's casters. each and every character does not need to be able to solo each and every type of encounter, so long as they can contribute in some way.

...It's not as much "able to solo each and every encounter" as it is "able to contribute meaningfully in each and every encounter". If I spend every encounter as a Wizard standing in the back and shooting my 1d8 crossbow every turn, I'm hardly contributing at anything past level 2. If you are doing direct damage rather than battlefield control or healing of some sort, you should be relevant damage-wise. If you try to tank it up with your huge AC, you need to give them a reason to target you rather than your squishy friends who are more dangerous.

Also, Dragons are totally aerial encounters. Look at the entire fight against Smaug. The only reason a dragon would have for standing on the ground is if he either cannot fly or wants to bite you, and firebreath+spells makes the second obsolete. Not to mention that the breath weapon hits the entire party rather than just a few, very few classes are decent at range, and dragons have wings for a reason.

Oh, and if you run a fight "straight from the MM"?

A dragon attacks with its powerful claws and bite, and can also use
a breath weapon and special physical attacks, depending on its
size. It prefers to fight on the wing, staying out of reach until it has
worn down the enemy with ranged attacks. Older, more intelligent dragons are adept at sizing up the opposition and eliminating
the most dangerous foes first (or avoiding them while picking off
weaker enemies).

[Augmental]

actually, i was thinking of the yrthak.

The yrthak has a sonic lance attack which does much more damage than a sling.


i've always seen dragons played as ground monsters, not flyers.

They have a flying speed, so they are flying monsters.


also, a mount with an archer is not "straight from the MM", which is what i specified.

It's assumed that the mounts will have riders. That's what mounts are for!


SLA's are, of course, countered by your own party's casters. each and every character does not need to be able to solo each and every type of encounter, so long as they can contribute in some way.

The VOP Monk is stopped dead by several common types of encounters, and when he does contribute it's usually less than what even a non-VOP monk would contribute.

[lunar2]

[bunch of snips]

Also, the ability bonuses it gives are the same as items give. They aren't permanent. You can also lose them if you pick up and throw an enchanted rock, so they definitely aren't permanent. Also also, why on earth are you putting stat boosts into Intelligence?

Also, in Low Op a lot of things aren't a big deal, like everything after, say, level 6. And Low-Op Wizards are blasters while the Fighter goes sword-and-board and utterly fails to challenge any CR10+ enemy.

Oh, and don't forget that by using the vow you can't use any items that may help you - you aren't allowed to use Potions, for example.

For reference, a level 20 Monk with VoP is doing 2d10+5+Str damage, and the average HP for a CR 20 monster is 409HP. With 18 Strength, you will defeat it in 21 attacks. You have +24 to hit, and it has an AC of 36... So each turn is doing 3*(0,45*20)+(0,2*20)+(0,05*20)=32 damage. That's a thirteenth of the monster's health, so for a party of four VoP monks that's a solid four turns of beating down on it. For an encounter that is supposed to be easy, since CR=ECL is supposed to not be that challenging.
A low-op THF Greatsword barbarian, on the other hand, likely has 24 Strength by now. He's doing 2d6+15 damage at +32 to hit, or 2d6+21 damage at +36 to hit when raging. Each turn, that's 22+(0,8*22)+(0,55*22)+(0,3*22)=58,3 damage. On his own, that's nine turns to kill the monster. However, two barbarians will kill it in five turns, and three barbarians are easily outdamaging the VoP party.


ability bonuses being permanent. it's permanent because it's part of your character (a feat) not something temporary (a non instantaneous/permanent spell or an item). being able to be lost doesn't make it temporary. if that was the case, then even your base ability score would be temporary, thanks to ability drain. general rule of thumb. if you still have it after you were hit by a disjunction, it's permanent.

@bonus to Int yeah, on a monk they would only use the +2, if any, but other classes could use the Int boost. that +8 on a factotum, for example.

low op. wow, sword and board? that's not low op, that purposely gimping yourself (although i have seen a sword and board twf stone giant that was remarkably effective before). a low op fighter is generally going to be twf or wielding a greatsword.

potions. actually, you specifically can use your party members' items, so long as you don't take ownership of them in any way. you can drink a potion handed to you, or ride the rogue's magic carpet, for example, but you can't wield a magic sword for even one round.

@breakdown. 18 strength on a level 20 character? really? a melee character will be starting with an 18, assuming a reasonable point buy. +4 from levels (since 5 would be useless, put that last point on an odd number) makes 22, and +8 from VoP makes 30.

atk bonus 30/30/30/25/20 vs. ac 36 is 3 hits at 4d6 (with imp. nat. attack) + 15 or 29 damage per hit. your hypothetical 4 monks would deal 348 damage in one round, assuming no crits in those 12 hits. 1 round, and part of a second to take out 409 hp.

[bekeleven]

@breakdown. 18 strength on a level 20 character? really? a melee character will be starting with an 18, assuming a reasonable point buy. +4 from levels (since 5 would be useless, put that last point on an odd number) makes 22, and +8 from VoP makes 30.
I agree (or don't disagree enough to get involved) with most of what you're saying, but this isn't true at all on a monk.

4D6 drop lowest works out to roughly 27-28 point buy. So tell me how you're spending your 28 points to get an 18 on a monk. That's 16 right there. You're down to 12 for all other stats. 14 Dex, 14 Wis, and you're already out of dosh. I hope you weren't planning on having good fort saves, HP, skills, or social.

[Qwertystop]

Only enough air to last 10 minutes, nothing more. At least to my recollection the dysfunction lies in that it's 10 minutes per no matter how many creatures are in said bag..

Annoyingly, it's not quite phrased that way - it's worse. It's not "enough air to last 10 minutes", it's
If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate.The main difference being that opening the bag or bringing in a magical air source doesn't help. A slightly less commonsense (but still grammatically valid) reading points out that it still suffocates creatures that don't need to breathe, as long as they aren't immune to suffocation.

And if you really want to stretch things, it doesn't actually say that the timer stops when they're removed. I don't think anyone would accept that last one, though.

[lunar2]

I agree (or don't disagree enough to get involved) with most of what you're saying, but this isn't true at all on a monk.

4D6 drop lowest works out to roughly 27-28 point buy. So tell me how you're spending your 28 points to get an 18 on a monk. That's 16 right there. You're down to 12 for all other stats. 14 Dex, 14 Wis, and you're already out of dosh. I hope you weren't planning on having good fort saves, HP, skills, or social.

alright. we'll do it another way. elite array with the 15 going to strength.

str 15 + 5 from levels + 8 enhancement = 28, just 1 point lower on the modifier.
dex 13 + 4 enhancement = 17
con 14 + 6 enhancement = 20
int 10
wis 12 + 2 enhancement = 14
cha 8

[Gemini476]

ability bonuses being permanent. it's permanent because it's part of your character (a feat) not something temporary (a non instantaneous/permanent spell or an item). being able to be lost doesn't make it temporary. if that was the case, then even your base ability score would be temporary, thanks to ability drain. general rule of thumb. if you still have it after you were hit by a disjunction, it's permanent.
Is ability drain permanent without any way to regain it, like Vow of Poverty?
Restoration says otherwise.
As far as I know, only Inherent, racial and level-up bonuses are permanent.


@bonus to Int yeah, on a monk they would only use the +2, if any, but other classes could use the Int boost. that +8 on a factotum, for example.
You have a +6/+4/+4/+2 array of bonuses. You need Wis for class features, Dex for Dex, Str for damage, and Con for HP. Putting one into Int only gives you skill bonuses, and Cha is entirely useless. Generally, the less MAD the better. Especially when you can't buy a Belt of Magnificence or similar items.

I'm not entirely certain whether or not an Enhancement bonus gets you bonus skill points, however, and I'm inclined to think that it doesn't. [Exalted] feats are Supernatural, after all, and Vow of Poverty in particular can disappear permanently rather easily.
Oh, and that would depend greatly on when you take it. +1 from 7 onwards, +2 from eleven, +3 from fifteen, +4 from 19?
That's 32 points, or one and a half skill.
If you take two feats before level 7.



low op. wow, sword and board? that's not low op, that purposely gimping yourself (although i have seen a sword and board twf stone giant that was remarkably effective before). a low op fighter is generally going to be twf or wielding a greatsword.

Clearly we have different classifications of low-op. Why wouldn't you take a Tower Shield to go alongside your Longsword?
It's an archetype that is surprisingly popular, possibly due to its effectiveness in real life. I'd argue that going Monk 20 is gimping yourself.
Things that are also low-op: Magic Missile Wizard, Fireball, and taking Toughness.



potions. actually, you specifically can use your party members' items, so long as you don't take ownership of them in any way. you can drink a potion handed to you, or ride the rogue's magic carpet, for example, but you can't wield a magic sword for even one round.

Huh, you're right. Must have missed that due to the feat being spread all over the book.



@breakdown. 18 strength on a level 20 character? really? a melee character will be starting with an 18, assuming a reasonable point buy. +4 from levels (since 5 would be useless, put that last point on an odd number) makes 22, and +8 from VoP makes 30.

You have +8 enhancement from VoP to one stat, you're right. I miscounted there. So starting with 18 (what point buy? You're a Monk, remember. Standard would be 25pts, or close to Elite Array.), you can get 30 Strength. You then have, using standard 25pt buy, a starting array of 18Str 10Con 10Dex 13Wis 8Int 8Cha. You only buy up to 18 points in SAD builds or high point buys. For reference, I consider 32pts to be about right: that's an array of 18/14/14/12/8/8. Which is still pretty painful.
Elite Array is 15/14/13/12/10/8.



atk bonus 30/30/30/25/20 vs. ac 36 is 3 hits at 4d6 (with imp. nat. attack) + 15 or 29 damage per hit. your hypothetical 4 monks would deal 348 damage in one round, assuming no crits in those 12 hits. 1 round, and part of a second to take out 409 hp.
With Strength 30 that's the attack layout, yes. However, the chance of hitting is 75%/75%/75%/50%/25%, making the damage 87 damage/round. (SNEAK EDIT: which you calculated! Thanks.)
However, that's left Low Op by taking a monster feat to increase PC damage. No kidding, I've seen people complain that "Monster feats are not meant for PCs" before. They're most definitely not low-op. But yeah.

Now let's go for a non-hypothetical MM monster: the CR20 monsters are a Balor, a Pit Fiend, and the Tarrasque. Let's go for fighting the Tarrasque, since it has- oh wait no, Wish. Right. That's a general issue with mundane characters in D&D however, so let's ignore both that and the fact that you can't use a Luckblade.
So let's take the Balor. It's rather iconic. Going by the round-by-round tactics in the MM, he opens up with Implosion and Quickened Telekinesis. He is also prebuffed with Unholy Aura, so attackers take 1d6 temporary strength damage for each successful melee attack and he gets +4 AC. So how do these monks do against the Balor? (who has +11 Initiative, btw?)
Well, he has AC 39 and 290 HP, so the first round (...Let's assume they're 30ft away from him.) they do one attack at +30 for 4d6+15(29) damage. They have a 60% chance of hitting him, however, so as a group they just do 69.6 damage that round, and take 2,1Str damage each.
The Balor, however, uses Implosion, which kills one monk 55%(SR 30)*50%(Fort Save +16)(12 Con, +3 VoP, +12 levels)=27.5% of the time.
So that's a decent chance to just auto-kill a PC.
Then he uses Quickened Telekinesis(Bull Rush), targeting one of the monks. (Average human weight is 175lbs, max weight for Telekinesis is 375.) He rolls an opposed check, +8 vs. the monks +8,95, and needs top beat the check by 5. That's roughly 22,75%, so a 12.5% chance of success including SR.

Speaking of which, Spell Resistance really screws you over when you can't use magic items.

So next turn. There's 2+87.5%+72.5% Monks ready to Full Attack. The Monks have a routine of 54.75%/54.75%/54.75%/29.75%/5%, and do 4d6+13.95 damage. That's 62.6 damage each, for 225.4 damage total. That's enough to slay him, but they also lost one quarter of a comrade in the battle. If they took the Vow of Purity, they can't even bring back the body!
Oh, and they all take 40 damage(Ref negates.)

So yeah, you can totally beat a CR20 fight as a level 20 monk. But you can't really do much outside of fighting, which is a problem that's common with all D&D 3.X fighty-types.
Oh, and the AC bonuses? You have AC 10+4(NA)+5(deflection)+10(exalted)+Wis+Dex, or 29+Wis+Dex. Your Touch AC is 15+Wis+Dex.
The average To-Hit at CR20 in the SRD is 29.56, so I suspect you can see why people say that AC is useless unless you specialize in it. Also DR 10/Evil is pretty useless.

[lunar2]

actually ability drain is specifically one of the things that does affect your skill points per level. that's why i mentioned it

@ ability scores. i redid it with the elite array. strength is only down by 2 points that way. and i'd definitely focus on con over dex and wis, since AC is only good on iteratives anyway.

@low op. we do have different definitions of low op, it seems. low op to me is taking the obvious choices, especially from core books. improved natural attack therefore may be mid op, since it isn't quite as obvious tucked away in the monster manual. but permanent enlarge person definitely qualifies, since it is both obvious and not particularly optimized. it gets us to roughly the same numbers as before, just a hair lower on the attack.

also, the ability score bonuses from VoP are 8/6/4/2, not 6/4/4/2. that's one of its good points, that you get an epic enhancement bonus pre epic.

[bekeleven]

If you ever need to know the lowest of the low ops, check the iconic builds in the back of the 3.0 book Enemies and Allies. I just went looking through for information on who, if anybody, used shields:


Alhandra, the Paladin, used a shield. Somehow it provides an armor bonus whether she chooses to use a longsword, lance, or crossbow.
Devis, the Bard, did not use a shield. But his melee of choice through level 15 remained a longsword and he had +0 strength.
Jozan, the Cleric, kept his heavy wooden shield just like Alhandra.
With smaller weapons, I've been using the damage dealt by the weapon to figure out how many hands were used in the wielding. Lidda, a level 15 Halfling rogue with 14 strength, somehow manages to attack with a +3 sword and deal 1D6+3. I assume she was zero-handing it unless this is one of those really odd 3.0 weapon things.
All of the full arcane spellcasters managed to dodge using shields. But yes, I still cracked up when I saw Mailee's stats.
Tordek stuck to his wooden shield his entire run. Curiously he only got it enchanted to +3 at level 15, one less than Alhandra, despite having fewer weapons (waraxe and throwing axe instead of longsword, bow and lance).
Anyone with D10+ HD has higher con than dex, except Soveliss the Ranger. Anyone with a smaller HD had higher dex, except Nebin the illusionist and Jozan.
Vadania, the Druid, has weapon focus: Scimitar. She kept it her entire lifetime, and by level 15 she had it enchanted to +2 Keen, Throwing, Returning. Are you wondering why WotC playtesters said the monk was the strongest class yet?
Ember's level 5 stats were 13/16/12/10/14/8. Her level 15 stats were 16/23/14/10/18/8. Seemed a bit relevant given our latest conversation.

[Drelua]

Slight problem with the balor example; it can fly. There is no way a creature with 24 intelligence and wisdom is going to just stand there while four monks slowly beat it to death. It has Dominate and Insanity at will, it can summon demons, and its tactics even say that it grabs someone and then flies away, or teleports if it didn't grab anybody. So yeah, four level 20 VoP Monks might be able to kill a single CR 20 enemy, but at least one of them is likely to die, and that's only if the balor completely forgets how it's supposed to fight. I mean, why would it be standing there waiting for the monks to attack it? Did they somehow get the drop on it with it's 38 listen and spot? There's no way their hide and move silently are any higher than 30, if they could even afford the skill ranks.

[Big Fau]

alright. we'll do it another way. elite array with the 15 going to strength.

str 15 + 5 from levels + 8 enhancement = 28, just 1 point lower on the modifier.
dex 13 + 4 enhancement = 17
con 14 + 6 enhancement = 20
int 10
wis 12 + 2 enhancement = 14
cha 8

A Fighter, at 20th level, is going to have somewhere between 34 and 36 Strength if that was his ability score of choice. A Barbarian is going to be even higher up there, around 44 (minimum), possibly in the 60s or 70s. Before enhancement bonuses.

In general, when a class needs 1 ability score to function, the goal of that character is to get 18 base and add the following: +2-+4 (race), +5 (level), +6 (Enhancement), +5 (Inherent). Some go far above that, and a VoP character never gets that last +5.

Never mind that most of the other ability scores are hideously low. Your VoP Monk's stats are vulnerable to a majority of stat penalties (Ray of Stupidity, Allips, anything that does Cha damage).

The fact that the ability score bonuses can be equal to an Epic bonus (the +8) is completely irrelevant, especially for a score that's easy to pump like Strength.

[Doc_Maynot]

Balor, Evil Outsider.
Death Throes: What kind of damage is this?
Entangle: Constant freedom of movement from VoP, so Immune
Blasphemy: DC 25 at level 20, Will from class +11 (cause monk 18/saint 2), +1 from the Wisdom saint template VoP pretty much Auto qualifies for, +4 from VoP Wis, +3 from VoP again, +2 for magic circle against evil, and I'll estimate +2 from starting Wis. So +25 to the save against Blasphemy, should be no problem.
Dominate Monster: Immune
Greater Dispel Magic: Probably never gonna get used against 4 VoP monks
Greater Teleport: Cool Tactic, probably would be useful if the Balor had good ranged attacks, Also monks have that abundant step thing.
Insanity: Reference Blasphemy, but add +2 to the save roll cause enchantment.
Power Word Stun: Immune due to Freedom of Movement
Telekinesis: If trying to affect them, check out blasphemy again.
Fire Storm: 1/day, DC 26 reflex halves, +11 from class, +2 from magic circle against evil, +3 from VoP Dex, +3 from VoP again, and I'll estimate at least +1 from starting dex. So +20 to Reflex saves, and thanks to monk reflex negates rather than halves, and VoP grants Fire resistance 15.
Implosion: 1/day, DC 26 Fort, +11 from class, +3 from VoP, + 2 from Magic circle, +2 from VoP Con, +1 from the Con granted by the saint template, And an estimated +2 from starting stats. So, +21 to fort saves, again no problem
Summon Demon: Magic circle against evil, no problem.
Flaming Body: So, just don't grapple the thing.
Unholy aura: Reference Implosion.
Flight 90ft: That might be a problem but then again, it would have been if he had any good ranged attacks.

So, if you have 4 competent VoP Monks you could easily just have a stalemate with the Balor, even with good strategy on his part.
They are terrible mind you, just not 100% against that.

[Gemini476]

Slight problem with the balor example; it can fly. There is no way a creature with 24 intelligence and wisdom is going to just stand there while four monks slowly beat it to death. It has Dominate and Insanity at will, it can summon demons, and its tactics even say that it grabs someone and then flies away, or teleports if it didn't grab anybody. So yeah, four level 20 VoP Monks might be able to kill a single CR 20 enemy, but at least one of them is likely to die, and that's only if the balor completely forgets how it's supposed to fight. I mean, why would it be standing there waiting for the monks to attack it? Did they somehow get the drop on it with it's 38 listen and spot? There's no way their hide and move silently are any higher than 30, if they could even afford the skill ranks.

Yeah, if it's flying then the VoP Monks are pretty much completely screwed.
The only ranged weapons they're allowed to use are Simple ones, so that means what, Javelins? So that's 1d6+5(8.5) damage with a +23/+18/+13 attack routine.
With a range increment of 30ft.

I didn't go for the grabbing thing because Vow of Poverty gives Freedom of Movement. Also I was following the instructions straight out of the book, which I suppose is a point in VoP's favor: it might work if the DM has no creativity.

And yeah, with that array lunar2 posted the bonus to hide/move silently are probably just at +26 unless they find some feats to use. And honestly they probably have better things to use feats on than boosting skills.

So with +26 vs. +38 and +26 vs. +38, that's what, 7%*7%=~0.5%?

So one time in 200 they manage to sneak up on the Balor. The other times it's flying up in the air and they only do 8.5*( 25%/5%/5% ), or 11.1 damage. Each person, each turn. So that's seven turns for them to kill it, during which he can fly around obnoxiously and summon demons on top of their heads.
Or he can fly out of range, which wouldn't be that difficult.


Another big reason to not take Vow of Poverty is that items are great! Belt of Battle, Healing, Magnificence, doing a Giacomo and UMDing wands, being able to attack something that is out of your reach...
Oh, and not having to be Exalted. You know how the Incarnate has a flavor quote where the iconic paladin complains about how up-tight they are?

“He’s the most rigid, inflexible person I’ve ever known. I’m all in
favor of law, but sometimes you need to temper it with mercy. Not
so for Ogava Basa.”
—Alhandra, human paladin
The Exalted alignment is even worse.

[Toy Killer]

Out of curiosity, is there a VoP fix that correctly replaces the needs for magic items? I would think that it would be difficult with each class needing different things (I.E. a Warlock wouldn't find flight to be especially enticing, while a fighter wouldn't want... well okay, there isn't much a fighter wouldn't grab but still...)

[Rubik]

Out of curiosity, is there a VoP fix that correctly replaces the needs for magic items? I would think that it would be difficult with each class needing different things (I.E. a Warlock wouldn't find flight to be especially enticing, while a fighter wouldn't want... well okay, there isn't much a fighter wouldn't grab but still...)I'd give the character in question something similar to Ancestral Relic, only instead of sacrificing wealth for a single item, the character would be able to enhance his body slots with item abilities depending on how much wealth he donated. Once per level he can change his slots' abilities, so long as he doesn't break the amount indicated by how much he's donated. He has a restricted (but still reasonable) amount he can alot to consumables, and he gains a few bonuses (such as [mental stat] to AC and so on) and one each for melee and ranged weaponry, to keep up with mundane equipment necessities.

Simple and easy fix.

[Toy Killer]

Actually... that's pretty legit...

My Fraternis Exisitice idea may be reinvigorated...

[Rubik]

Actually... that's pretty legit...

My Fraternis Exisitice idea may be reinvigorated...Oh, and there should be allowances for exceptional circumstances, such as plot-related items. Casters can substitute XP for GP expenditures, and they should gain Eschew Materials as a VoP-related bonus feat.

[Gemini476]

Oh, and there should be allowances for exceptional circumstances, such as plot-related items. Casters can substitute XP for GP expenditures, and they should gain Eschew Materials as a VoP-related bonus feat.

And a VoP Wizard should basically have that Dragon ACF that lets them memorize all their spells rather than using a spellbook.

Oh, and have it be so that you are allowed to use mundane items (books, fancy Masterwork Cups at the lord's dinner party, spellbooks...) even if you can't own them.

[Kioras]

The only fix would be to home brew some exalted feats, and boost vow of poverty that provide what is missing.

Would need something to give you flight.
You would want something to give defenses, such as concealment and immunities.
You need something to improve your damage, and other useful enchants on a weapon, such as to hit concealment/miss chance
You need bigger stat boosts, since you can't use any tomes or wishes to give inherent bonuses.

You need to allow a certain amount of freedom, such as a components pouch, a focus and a spell book, otherwise a lot of casters are useless.

Should be a few good fixes out there for vow of poverty, but the hard thing would be to convince a DM to allow them as a lot of less informed people think it is overpowered.

[Rubik]

And a VoP Wizard should basically have that Dragon ACF that lets them memorize all their spells rather than using a spellbook.Eidetic Wizard ACF could work for that. The special incense could be a waived exception as a sort of religious rite, especially if the wizard in question worships the god(dess) of magic.


Oh, and have it be so that you are allowed to use mundane items (books, fancy Masterwork Cups at the lord's dinner party, spellbooks...) even if you can't own them.That last might be counted as 'exceptional circumstances,' especially if it only happens every great once in awhile. Touching expensive things and using them for explicit purposes (rather than living in finery) could be acceptable, though the character in question would likely feel incredibly uncomfortable doing so, and take penalties to certain things for a specified period of time (such as feeling shaken while doing so and for 1 hour after, with no immunities possible) rather than just losing the feat.

Natural humility FTW?

[danzibr]

To throw my two cents in, that VoP is viable for a Totemist isn't really the case. I'm actually playing a VoP Totemist in a campaign now, and man it's hurting.

It might hurt just a little less than a VoP <insert class here>, but VoP still really, really sucks.

[Qwertystop]

The big problem with the method of having the things you donate count up toward enhancing yourself as though you had magic items is figuring out the conversion rate.

If it's 1:1 donation value:item value, VoP becomes automatically better than not having it because none of your stuff can be stolen, lost, require time to equip, etc. It's not much of a gain, but it's still a gain, and at a 1:1 rate there's no loss.

If the ratio's too low, though, that small gain really isn't enough to balance it out.

So the question is: What percentage of your gold is that worth? Is just having to take the feat enough extra cost to counterbalance it?

[Rubik]

The big problem with the method of having the things you donate count up toward enhancing yourself as though you had magic items is figuring out the conversion rate.

If it's 1:1 donation value:item value, VoP becomes automatically better than not having it because none of your stuff can be stolen, lost, require time to equip, etc. It's not much of a gain, but it's still a gain, and at a 1:1 rate there's no loss.

If the ratio's too low, though, that small gain really isn't enough to balance it out.

So the question is: What percentage of your gold is that worth? Is just having to take the feat enough extra cost to counterbalance it?But there is a large number of items you can't really get, such as decanters of endless water, mirrors of opposition, helms of opposite alignment, a small armory of different types of weapons, pearls of power, Quaal's feather tokens, spellcasting services, and so on. Plus, it costs two feats, if the current standard is held to. That's quite a big cost, IMO, though the first part might not be, depending on what you normally purchase for your character.

[Qwertystop]

But there is a large number of items you can't really get, such as decanters of endless water, mirrors of opposition, helms of opposite alignment, a small armory of different types of weapons, pearls of power, Quaal's feather tokens, spellcasting services, and so on. Plus, it costs two feats, if the current standard is held to. That's quite a big cost, IMO, though the first part might not be, depending on what you normally purchase for your character.

Oh, didn't think of that. Not sure why I didn't, either - I love those weird tool-type items, get them whenever the character doesn't have a reason not to. Yeah, that probably makes 1:1 fair.

[Urpriest]

Honestly, VoP should be compatible with normal magic items, and should only restrict mundane wealth. Magic items are determined by character advancement and plot, they're only tangentially related to wealth in any plausible economic sense. Of all the vow of poverty-type characters in myth and legend, how many of them give away their magic items? Many left behind relics that were treated as magic items by later people, it's not so implausible to suppose the items were also magical while they were alive.

[Gemini476]

The big problem with the method of having the things you donate count up toward enhancing yourself as though you had magic items is figuring out the conversion rate.

If it's 1:1 donation value:item value, VoP becomes automatically better than not having it because none of your stuff can be stolen, lost, require time to equip, etc. It's not much of a gain, but it's still a gain, and at a 1:1 rate there's no loss.

If the ratio's too low, though, that small gain really isn't enough to balance it out.

So the question is: What percentage of your gold is that worth? Is just having to take the feat enough extra cost to counterbalance it?

...Going by the current version of Ancestral Relic, if that's what we're basing this on, it's 1:1 for the most expensive item and attribute bonuses, and 3:2 for the rest. I think. 3:2 if x1.5 cost, right?

[Rubik]

...Going by the current version of Ancestral Relic, if that's what we're basing this on, it's 1:1 for the most expensive item and attribute bonuses, and 3:2 for the rest. I think. 3:2 if x1.5 cost, right?You still have to go by item pricing rules, so that would be the default rule.

[Tvtyrant]

It should be noted that taking Vow of Poverty as a Druid, Incarnate or Totemist doesn't make you better than the same character with full WBL (and, actually, at level 20, all the Vow features are worth less than the wealth you should have by then).

It's just that those classes can still be awesome while gimped by the Vow.

Theoretically a Persist Chameleon should work pretty well with VoP, but for much the same reasons.

[Big Fau]

Yeah, if it's flying then the VoP Monks are pretty much completely screwed.
The only ranged weapons they're allowed to use are Simple ones, so that means what, Javelins? So that's 1d6+5(8.5) damage with a +23/+18/+13 attack routine.
With a range increment of 30ft.

Not true. As outsiders with RHD, they are proficient with all martial weapons by virtue of type.

[Augmental]

Not true. As outsiders with RHD, they are proficient with all martial weapons by virtue of type.

But can they afford any with VOP?

[Rubik]

But can they afford any with VOP?VoP restricts you from using anything but simple weapons, or you lose the feat.

[Big Fau]

But can they afford any with VOP?

Whoops, thought he was referring to the Balor using ranged weapons. My bad.

[Helcack]

I'd say look no further then the BOED, meet the prequisites for Apostle of Peace(Which will be very easy for you) by level 7 with whatever classes you want, take one level in it and then cherry pick any of the 9/10 casting prestige's in BOED to add onto it. Then after that take 3 levels of whatever else you want. If you want to do your Druid thing then go 6 Druid 10 The Lion of Talisid 4 Druid and be a holy druid person.

P.S. in Apostle of Peace which requires vow of poverty the following line exists in their armour and weapon proficiency section: "As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor)." so I believe you are allowed to wear magic items in tandem with vow of poverty if you take the prestige class(because I honestly don't know why they would put that line in there if they had read vow of poverty)

[Somensjev]

I'd say look no further then the BOED, meet the prequisites for Apostle of Peace(Which will be very easy for you) by level 7 with whatever classes you want, take one level in it and then cherry pick any of the 9/10 casting prestige's in BOED to add onto it. Then after that take 3 levels of whatever else you want. If you want to do your Druid thing then go 6 Druid 10 The Lion of Talisid 4 Druid and be a holy druid person.

P.S. in Apostle of Peace which requires vow of poverty the following line exists in their armour and weapon proficiency section: "As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor)." so I believe you are allowed to wear magic items in tandem with vow of poverty if you take the prestige class(because I honestly don't know why they would put that line in there if they had read vow of poverty)

i had looked at apostle of peace, and i was considering asking if it would be worth it

[Kioras]

P.S. in Apostle of Peace which requires vow of poverty the following line exists in their armour and weapon proficiency section: "As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor)." so I believe you are allowed to wear magic items in tandem with vow of poverty if you take the prestige class(because I honestly don't know why they would put that line in there if they had read vow of poverty)

Well thats a mess, they require vow of poverty to access the class, but then have a note in the class that they can wear magical items to protect themselves.

Be up to the DM, on what takes priority. The apostle of peace or the vow of poverty. Since the note on the class states protective items, it can be construed to apply to any items that provides an immunity, or a bonus to armor or saves. I would personally allow it as the feat and RP penalty is pretty rough to begin with.

I guess you could build a battle field control wizard(7)/apostle of peace(2) /mystic theurge (8)/ wizard(1) and get casting as a level 18 wizard, a level 10 apostle of peace. Be quite MAD though. Would not be as bad if you can go grab the saint template and then buy off the LA too while leveling.

[lunar2]

Well thats a mess, they require vow of poverty to access the class, but then have a note in the class that they can wear magical items to protect themselves.

Be up to the DM, on what takes priority. The apostle of peace or the vow of poverty. Since the note on the class states protective items, it can be construed to apply to any items that provides an immunity, or a bonus to armor or saves. I would personally allow it as the feat and RP penalty is pretty rough to begin with.

I guess you could build a battle field control wizard(7)/apostle of peace(2) /mystic theurge (8)/ wizard(1) and get casting as a level 18 wizard, a level 10 apostle of peace. Be quite MAD though. Would not be as bad if you can go grab the saint template and then buy off the LA too while leveling.

wiz 2/master specialist 7/ AoP 2 / MT 9

CL 18 wizard

CL 20 AoP

for even more fun, practiced spellcaster on AoP can push you up to CL24, since you apply everything in the most beneficial order.

[Kioras]

wiz 2/master specialist 7/ AoP 2 / MT 9

CL 18 wizard

CL 20 AoP

for even more fun, practiced spellcaster on AoP can push you up to CL24, since you apply everything in the most beneficial order.

You could probably get a pretty playable character this way, but that has nothing to do with the with the overall bonus with the vow of poverty and more with the fact that wizard 9th level spells are quite potent, even with the nonviolence clause.

Ironically an evil character, following a wizard/ur-priest build is a lot more powerful, with a lot more freedom in both spells and actions. Evil would prevail because good is dumb.

[Lhurgyof]

We've pretty much banned vows in our games, they cause too much party strife; forcing allies not to fight and stuff.

[Kioras]

We've pretty much banned vows in our games, they cause too much party strife; forcing allies not to fight and stuff.

I guess it depends on the type of campaign you are running, and how flexible your DM wants to be.

If you are running an undead heavy campaign with only a handful of living enemies, they make perfect sense and won't interfere with day to day campaigning. However a lot of players are trained by video games for RPG's so have a very simple Process.

If <target> HOSTILE
then
kill <target> with FIRE

Nonlethal means almost never come up in those situations.

[Gemini476]

If you are running an undead heavy campaign with only a handful of living enemies, they make perfect sense and won't interfere with day to day campaigning.

I take it that you don't mean Vow of Purity when you say that, right? Especially not in combination with Vow of Poverty, since Holy Water costs money.

[Talya]

It should be noted that taking Vow of Poverty as a Druid, Incarnate or Totemist doesn't make you better than the same character with full WBL (and, actually, at level 20, all the Vow features are worth less than the wealth you should have by then).

It's just that those classes can still be awesome while gimped by the Vow.

Strictly speaking, a VOP druid specializing in wildshaping is probably almost as good as a wildshape-specialist druid using gear. (Probably even better at physical combat.) Wild Armor/Wilding Clasps add up to a LOT of wealth (if they are even readily available). You generally can never have enough of it. Not to mention that a druid can actually make pretty good use of a lot of those Exalted feats.

[Somensjev]

what would be some fun Prc's that work with VoP?
i was looking at apostle of peace (obviously) but the i started looking at tenebrous apostate, and that that would be ok, but it'd take a while for me to be able to qualify for it (unless there's any early entry tricks for it?)

damn, cant do that :smallannoyed:
oh well, bye bye vows :smallamused:

[Kioras]

what would be some fun Prc's that work with VoP?
i was looking at apostle of peace (obviously) but the i started looking at tenebrous apostate, and that that would be ok, but it'd take a while for me to be able to qualify for it (unless there's any early entry tricks for it?)

damn, cant do that :smallannoyed:
oh well, bye bye vows :smallamused:

Yes, the vows are basically uselses unless you can fit them into your RP. Also as others have mentioned some of them inflict restrictions on the rest of your group which might be unpopular.

Thre is also the fact that the vow of poverty does not come close to equaliing the effect of the lost equipment due to WBL, making it a feat tax to cripple yourself.

[Story]

Tenebrous Apostate is nongood only. Hellbred might be able to do it.

[lunar2]

if you are going to be using VoP, you really should be playing an unarmed magical swordsage. that way you've still got all your bases covered, and you can go whole hog on the no gear thing.

[Rubik]

would a character with all of the vow of x feats be any good?

if so, what classes might people suggest for a character like that?

and how would you make a character with as many of those feats as you can? preferably at ecl 6?

are these feats any good in your eyes?

thank you for any answers, i look forward to reading the responses :smallbiggrin:From the sounds of things (as well as your screenname), maybe you could homebrew a vow of stupidity? :smallamused:

[gooddragon1]

From the sounds of things (as well as your screenname), maybe you could homebrew a vow of stupidity? :smallamused:

I made a class for this situation:
Name
|_337 |-|4><0|2

Alignment
Lawful Good

HD
d4

Class Skills
All skills are now treated as cross-class skills.

Skill Points at 1st Level
(2 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
2 + Int modifier.

Poor Base Attack Bonus (Equal to 1/2 HD)
Poor Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving Throws

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

~'s have no proficiency with any weapon or armor. If they had it from another class they lose those proficiencies. They are also not proficient with natural weapons and such weapons are always treated as secondary weapons. If the ~ has natural armor, it is treated as being nonproficient with it and takes an armor check penalty equal to the amount granted by the bonus.

~ are prohibited from wearing metal armor, armor or shields heavier than light armor, and using metal shields.

When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a ~ loses any AC bonuses he has.

A ~ who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to perform more than a single move action or attack action each round while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

Taboos (Ex)

To maintain his awesomeness, a ~ must abide by certain minor restrictions. If he violates a taboo, a ~ cannot carry or wear anything for the rest of the day. A ~ must choose one additional taboo at 1st level and one additional taboo each time she gains a level in any class. The ~ automatically gains the taboo of needing to always wear clothing.

Triforce (Ex)

At 2nd level, a ~ must reroll every roll he makes and take the worse result.

Bad Karma (Ex)

At 3rd level, a ~ must roll a second d20 every time he makes a d20 roll. If the result on the second d20 is a 1 he automatically fails. If both results are 1, draw 1 card from the deck of many things but remove all beneficial cards first.

Level Adjustment (Ex)

At 4th level, a ~ gains a level adjustment equal to his ~ level.

Great Fortitude (Ex)

At 5th level, a ~'s constitution score is reduced to 10 if it is 12 or higher or reduced by 2 if it is less than 12 (thereafter it cannot be increased above 10 by any means).

Confusion (Ex)

At 6th level, a ~ is treated as constantly being under the effects of a confusion spell.

Cursed (Ex)

At 7th level, each turn, the ~ has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, he takes no action.

Visually Inept (Ex)

At 8th level, the ~ takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the ~.

Hearing Ineptitude (Ex)

At 9th level, the ~ takes a -4 penalty on initiative checks, automatically fails Listen checks, and has a 20% chance of spell failure when casting spells with verbal components.

Feeble (Ex)

At 10th level, the ~ takes a -2 penalty on Strength-, Dexterity-, and Constitution-based ability checks and skill checks.

Frail (Ex)

At 11th level, Subtract 1 from the number of hit points the ~ gains at each level. This can reduce the number of hit points he gains to 0 (but not below).

Inattentive (Ex)

At 12th level, the ~ takes a -4 penalty on Listen checks and Spot checks.

Meager Fortitude (Ex)

At 13th level, the ~ takes a -3 penalty on Fortitude saves.

Murky-Eyed (Ex)

At 14th level, In combat, every time the ~ attacks an opponent that has concealment, roll his miss chance twice. If either or both results indicate that the ~ would miss, his attack fails.

Noncombatant (Ex)

At 15th level, the ~ takes a -2 penalty on all melee attack rolls.

Weak Will (Ex)

At 16th level, the takes a -3 penalty on Will saves.

Poor Reflexes (Ex)

At 17th level, the ~ takes a -3 penalty on Reflex saves.

Shaky (Ex)

At 18th level, the ~ takes a -2 penalty on all ranged attack rolls.

Slow (Ex)

At 19th level, the ~'s base land speed is halved (round down to the nearest 5-foot interval).

Unreactive (Ex)

At 20th level, the ~ takes a -6 penalty on initiative checks.

Flaws (Ex)

At 21st level and every level thereafter, the ~ must take a flaw (though he gains no bonus feat from doing so). The ~ must also roleplay the flaw accordingly or he becomes an ex ~.

Code of Conduct

A ~ must be of lawful good alignment and suffers penalties as described in ex ~ if he commits an evil or good act.

Additionally, a ~’s code requires that he respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), punish those who harm or threaten innocents, respect individual liberty, help those in need (provided they do not use the help for lawful or evil ends), punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty, disrespect all authority figures who have not proven their physical superiority to him, refuse help to those in need, and sow destruction and death at all opportunities, respect authority figures as long as they have the strength to rule over the weak, act with discipline (not engaging in random slaughter, keeping firm control over those beneath his station, and so forth), help only those who help him maintain or improve his status, and punish those who challenge authority (unless, of course, such challengers prove more worthy to hold that authority).

Associates

While he may adventure with characters of any alignment, a ~ will never knowingly associate with evil, neutral, good, chaotic, or lawful characters unless it is funny, nor will he continue an association with someone who consistently offends his moral code. A ~ may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who have at least one level in ~.

Ex ~

A ~ who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, who willfully commits any act, grossly violates the code of conduct, or teaches a language to anyone loses all levels in classes other than ~ and gains a level adjustment equal to the number of class levels lost. He cannot thereafter gain levels he atones (see the atonement spell description).

Like a member of any other class, a ~ may be a multiclass character, but multiclass ~s face a special restriction. A ~ who gains a level in any class other than ~ must have a ~ level at least 1 level higher than any other class before advancing a level in that class.

The most important part:

Ex - |_337 |-|4><0|2

A |_337 |-|4><0|2 who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, who willfully commits any act, grossly violates the code of conduct, or teaches a language to anyone loses all levels in classes other than |_337 |-|4><0|2 and gains a level adjustment equal to the number of class levels lost. He cannot thereafter gain levels he atones (see the atonement spell description).

[Talya]

Thre is also the fact that the vow of poverty does not come close to equaliing the effect of the lost equipment due to WBL, making it a feat tax to cripple yourself.

In general, you're not wrong. However, this myth about WBL equivalence keeps popping up. By the end game, VOP gives you two epic-level bonuses. Bracers of Epic Armor +10 and a +8 ability score item are equal to 1,640,000 gp. (No, you can't break up the ability score bonus into a +6 item and a +2 inherent bonus, because VOP characters still have access to inherent bonuses, though it's a bit more restrictive getting access to them. No, you don't get to value the armor bonus as +2 full plate, because it behaves as bracers of armor, not as worn armor. Whether that's useful to your character or not is irrelevant.)

Now, you'd be right arguing that those epic items would be a very poor use of wealth if you had it at level 20, and you'd be right. But the actual value of VOP blows WBL out of the water. The problem with WBL isn't with the monetary value of what it gives you, but that you don't get to choose what it gives you.

[Rubik]

In general, you're not wrong. However, this myth about WBL equivalence keeps popping up. By the end game, VOP gives you two epic-level bonuses. Bracers of Epic Armor +10 and a +8 ability score item are equal to 1,640,000 gp. (No, you can't break up the ability score bonus into a +6 item and a +2 inherent bonus, because VOP characters still have access to inherent bonuses, though it's a bit more restrictive getting access to them. No, you don't get to value the armor bonus as +2 full plate, because it behaves as bracers of armor, not as worn armor. Whether that's useful to your character or not is irrelevant.)

Now, you'd be right arguing that those epic items would be a very poor use of wealth if you had it at level 20, and you'd be right. But the actual value of VOP blows WBL out of the water. The problem with WBL isn't with the monetary value of what it gives you, but that you don't get to choose what it gives you.But non-VoP characters have access to bonus types that VoP characters don't get, meaning they can get MUCH higher overall bonuses for far less. Why does it matter if you can get a +10 exalted bonus (which is identical to an armor bonus and does not stack) if you can nab +60 in AC bonuses pre-epic that VoP characters can't get? A +8/+6/+4/+2 enhancement bonus array to your ability scores means very little when you can use a psychoactive skin of proteus to give you +10 or better untyped bonuses to all your physical scores, along with up to +6 in enhancement bonuses, +5 in inherent bonuses, +3 in aging bonuses (which grant no penalties due to the psychoactive skin, which most VoP characters still have to deal with), variable bonuses due to grafts, and more.

Honestly, the fact that VoP characters can gain a whole +10 to AC through one bonus type means less than nothing when they're barred from stacking bonuses elsewhere (unless they're spellcasters, of course).

[Talya]

(unless they're spellcasters, of course).

There's the rub.

VOP's bonuses are quite good acceptable almost adequate for certain classes that are already very powerful and could probably use a nerf anyway. It certainly doesn't make them more powerful, but it does make playing them "easy." As an example, a VOP druid who wants to fight while wildshaped no longer has to worry about wild armor and wilding clasps on all their gear. It actually is not a horrible idea for them. Likewise, totemists can use their pseudo-gear anyway and not suffer a lot for using VOP.


Monks? VOP makes an already pathetic class even more useless.

[Story]

In general, you're not wrong. However, this myth about WBL equivalence keeps popping up. By the end game, VOP gives you two epic-level bonuses. Bracers of Epic Armor +10 and a +8 ability score item are equal to 1,640,000 gp. (No, you can't break up the ability score bonus into a +6 item and a +2 inherent bonus, because VOP characters still have access to inherent bonuses, though it's a bit more restrictive getting access to them. No, you don't get to value the armor bonus as +2 full plate, because it behaves as bracers of armor, not as worn armor. Whether that's useful to your character or not is irrelevant.)

I suppose VOP isn't nearly as bad if you get up to level 20, spend all your WBL on inherent bonuses, grafts, legendary sites and the like, and then Pyschi Reformation yourself into VOP. But that's not what people usually think of, and probably wouldn't fly in a real game.

[Talya]

I suppose VOP isn't nearly as bad if you get up to level 20, spend all your WBL on inherent bonuses, grafts, legendary sites and the like, and then Pyschi Reformation yourself into VOP. But that's not what people usually think of, and probably wouldn't fly in a real game.

There are several situations ways you can get the inherent bonuses even if you had VOP from level 1.

Grafts and such, not so much.