Taxes

[Ranting Fool]

Hey guys I'm wondering if any of you could help me figure out a rough guideline to how much Tax a Lord (or in this case a bunch of heroes) a bunch of heroes could generate from 2000 or so people per month. (Mostly commoners at this point)

Yes I know it depends on the % taxed, assume LG/CG leaders so nothing that would harm growth of the population.

And yes I'm aware heroes will get so much more cash by adventuring but I want the figure out a rough guide so that if the heroes die the town doesn't just fall apart.

Any taxes would be put to use for maintenance/free schools/construction of new buildings/paying the guards ect. Rather then buying the PC's new shiny swords.

Cheers :smallbiggrin:

[Somensjev]

Hey guys I'm wondering if any of you could help me figure out a rough guideline to how much Tax a Lord (or in this case a bunch of heroes) a bunch of heroes could generate from 2000 or so people per month. (Mostly commoners at this point)

Yes I know it depends on the % taxed, assume LG/CG leaders so nothing that would harm growth of the population.

And yes I'm aware heroes will get so much more cash by adventuring but I want the figure out a rough guide so that if the heroes die the town doesn't just fall apart.

Any taxes would be put to use for maintenance/free schools/construction of new buildings/paying the guards ect. Rather then buying the PC's new shiny swords.

Cheers :smallbiggrin:

well, i'm not sure how much they'd get, but if the heros maybe went door to door every month collecting x% and they at first built something the people really need, and store their money there, so they can accumulate it

as for what x equals, that's entirely dependent, but i'd probably say no less than 5 no more than 15, as a general base line, then modify that on a month by month basis (just make sure you announce how much tax is a week or so before collecting)

but what would they do if someone didn't pay one month? give them a pardon? or pitch in their money a bit?

sorry for random questions and statistics, but i'm rather curious about all the plans now :smallbiggrin:

edit: sorry i worked in percentages, but since i dont know what the 2000 people are there's not much i can do, there might be artisans or something, so if i tried making figures they'd probably be very disproportional

[Ranting Fool]

well, i'm not sure how much they'd get, but if the heros maybe went door to door every month collecting x% and they at first built something the people really need, and store their money there, so they can accumulate it

as for what x equals, that's entirely dependent, but i'd probably say no less than 5 no more than 15, as a general base line, then modify that on a month by month basis (just make sure you announce how much tax is a week or so before collecting)

but what would they do if someone didn't pay one month? give them a pardon? or pitch in their money a bit?

sorry for random questions and statistics, but i'm rather curious about all the plans now :smallbiggrin:

Heroes are building a new town on a new world (While evacuating their current Demi-Plane everyone's been living on) because of the dangers of the old world. They are using their Landlord feat (soon to be feats I'm guessing when they level up) to build walls and some free housing/farms. But they would like to know how self sufficient the place will be, they have leadership so they would get minions to do Tax Collection.

[skyth]

I know that in the Stronghold builder's handbook, it allows a revenue source to yearly generate 1% of the stronghold's cost (In addition to handling the maintenance of the stronghold itself). You could consider the taxes in that range.

1st edition AD&D had taxes of 7-9 SP per month? (Might have been year) depending on the character class.

[Somensjev]

Heroes are building a new town on a new world (While evacuating their current Demi-Plane everyone's been living on) because of the dangers of the old world. They are using their Landlord feat (soon to be feats I'm guessing when they level up) to build walls and some free housing/farms. But they would like to know how self sufficient the place will be, they have leadership so they would get minions to do Tax Collection.

honestly, at this time of morning, i'm throwing random words together and hoping they make sense, so if i say something stupid just point it out, and also, what major things are the Heroes building first? maybe they could create a way that the tax could increase/decrease depending on the harvest, etc, by working on different buildings, with different levels of importance?

[Ranting Fool]

honestly, at this time of morning, i'm throwing random words together and hoping they make sense, so if i say something stupid just point it out, and also, what major things are the Heroes building first? maybe they could create a way that the tax could increase/decrease depending on the harvest, etc, by working on different buildings, with different levels of importance?

Honestly at this point they are mostly just letting the refugees build (while granting free spellcasting from their cohorts) but I know they plan to build.

Some form of Keep/Base for heroes + followers.
Grain/food storage.
Town walls.
Sewers.
Schools (with LG priest teachers as part of their followers)

Questions are good as they help me work things out by explaining them.

Taxes would mostly be from "You live within the city walls and are protected by our guards and those guards need paying"

[skyth]

Maybe use the Pathfinder Kingdom building rules from Ultimate Campaign? (It's compatible with 3.x from what I've seen)

[Ranting Fool]

Maybe use the Pathfinder Kingdom building rules from Ultimate Campaign? (It's compatible with 3.x from what I've seen)

I can borrow that so I'll have a look, cheers.:smallbiggrin:

[Somensjev]

Honestly at this point they are mostly just letting the refugees build (while granting free spellcasting from their cohorts) but I know they plan to build.

Some form of Keep/Base for heroes + followers.
Grain/food storage.
Town walls.
Sewers.
Schools (with LG priest teachers as part of their followers)

Questions are good as they help me work things out by explaining them.

Taxes would mostly be from "You live within the city walls and are protected by our guards and those guards need paying"

the keep/base would preferably be last (people are more willing to pay when they're sure you'll follow through)

i'd probably say walls and/or sewer are most important
then school
town hall
and finally base/keep

so, when they get a lot of income, and you have lots of money, have lots of people working on the walls and sewer, and a few people working on everything else, then, when the income is low, you have about half or so of your people working on just the walls and sewer, while the rest take a break and try to increase the income or something

so basically when you have lots of money, you work on everything a bit, and when you have little money, you just work on what's most important

[skyth]

It's available online on the Paizo site. (In the PRD)

[Captnq]

What's your wealth by level?

Okay, everything above that at your next level increase is taken by the tax man.

Problem: Solved.

[Lord Vukodlak]

What's your wealth by level?

Okay, everything above that at your next level increase is taken by the tax man.

Problem: Solved.

This is about the PC's collecting taxes not paying them.

[Fouredged Sword]

In a vassalage / Feudalism system, like default 3.5 is suggested to be, then taxes are rarely in the form of coin, and coin is something reserved for craftsmen and traders to deal with lords and merchant factors. Commoners pay their lord in service, say a share of their crop or a number of months of personal service a year. They bartered for most goods are likely spend their whole lives without handling a coin.

For a craftsman, he likely paid his lord a monthly due based on the shop he has set up, normally based on what tools he kept. He would pay X amount to have a forge, and X more for a grind wheel, where X is a fraction of the monthly income that service would be expected to generate. If there is a guild, the guild itself may pay his taxes as a group with him paying them guild dues and the guild acting as a middle man between him and the nobility, providing a better bargaining position.


Merchants payed tolls for crossing roads, bridged, and moving goods into cities. Doing any such could cost anywhere from a few coppers to a few silvers each time they moved a wagon across said toll location.

[Lord Vukodlak]

In a vassalage / Feudalism system, like default 3.5 is suggested to be, then taxes are rarely in the form of coin, and coin is something reserved for craftsmen and traders to deal with lords and merchant factors. Commoners pay their lord in service, say a share of their crop or a number of months of personal service a year. They bartered for most goods are likely spend their whole lives without handling a coin.

For a craftsman, he likely paid his lord a monthly due based on the shop he has set up, normally based on what tools he kept. He would pay X amount to have a forge, and X more for a grind wheel, where X is a fraction of the monthly income that service would be expected to generate. If there is a guild, the guild itself may pay his taxes as a group with him paying them guild dues and the guild acting as a middle man between him and the nobility, providing a better bargaining position.


Even craftsmen often paid in goods, the typical tax on a blacksmith was arrow heads. It wasn't uncommon for a Blacksmith to teach is wife the trade so she could make arrow heads while he concentrated the work that kept them fed.

Of course in D&D you have stuff like magic items, I presume that the raw materials for such items are either heavily taxed by the government or the sources are controlled.

[theIrkin]

as the two previous posters said, percentage of goods is probably your best bet (even the guards are paid in goods and housing, rather than coin). that doesn't really work with DnD economy though, so if you want to get away from hyper-realism, i would rule that the characters can convert their goods received as taxes into coinage at a standard rate (with occasional monkey wrenches thrown in). the taxes should be around 1/3-1/2 their total production, assuming they are subsistence farmers.

[Gemini476]

Ooh! Ooh! I know this one!

From the DMG:

Taxes and Tithes
Taxes paid to the queen, the emperor, or the local baroness might
consume as much as one-fifth of a character’s wealth (although
these expenses can vary considerably from land to land). Representatives of the government usually collect taxes yearly, biannually, or quarterly. Of course, as travelers, adventurers might avoid
most collection periods (and so you can ignore taxes for the PCs if
you want). Those who own land or a residence may find themselves assessed and taxed, however.
Tithes are paid to the church by those who are faithful participants
in a religion. Tithes often amount to as much as one-tenth of a character’s adventuring earnings, but collection is voluntary except in
strict, oppressive religions that have their own tithe collectors. Such
onerous religious taxation requires the support of the government.

So 20% taxes, probably payed in trade goods (vegetable, mineral, animal).


This came up some time a long time ago when people were trying to figure out how much a commoner could actually earn, and people were proposing taxes in the 30%-40% range.

[Ranting Fool]

Awesome guys you've been a big help.

Now just to be nice and generalist about the whole thing DMG has 1sp/Day of hiring the cheapest minion Porter/Maid/Barrister. And if we just say that is in the form of Goods/Services

365sp per year (Or however many odd days are in any particular campaign)
36.5 Gold... (how on earth do people get their starting adventure loot :smalltongue:)

2000 people make 14600gp of tax per year (If they were all minimum wage slaves) :smallbiggrin:

*Edit, kinda misplaced a decimal point there :smallredface:*
Now I just need to work out what % are unskilled manual labor and what are semi-skilled, high-skilled. And then do an average.

All of this is not for the PC's to make money but for the settlement to run itself and then grow when the PC's invest time and cash later. Granted this current campaign will be ending soon but the next campaign may well have them helping a small town grow to become awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[Abaddona]

Hmmm, for quick ruling maybe use proffesion skill check? 1st level commoner farmer will earn weekly 7 gold pieces (4 ranks, take 10 on check), so after one month he will get less than 30 gp. Depending on how you are ruling families (man works to get money and woman takes care of house duties and children. Also if kids are included in this 2000 people population) it would be as much as 3gp (10%) x 2000 (per person) = 6000 gp or 3gp x 500 (per family of man, woman and two children) = 1500 gp.

[Ranting Fool]

Maybe use the Pathfinder Kingdom building rules from Ultimate Campaign? (It's compatible with 3.x from what I've seen)

Oh this book is a goldmine! Mostly useful in the next campaign but has lots of generalized and abstract systems for running everything from small shops to empires so you don't have to count out how many chickens each farmer sells but allows the PC's to have an effect on the world. :smallbiggrin: I am very very pleased.

I really need to read more pathfinder stuff but never bothered to borrow any as my group are comfortable with 3.5 for the most part.

[Idhan]

Do they have to decide on both revenues and expenditures?

Because a fief will have revenue from taxation, but also expenses: maintaining roads, paying guardsmen, perhaps maintaining irrigation systems and aquaducts, paying judges.

If these are good lords who are trying to not impose high tax burdens and trying not to skimp too much on public services like road maintenance, they might rarely see a budget surplus that was actually available to them personally.

[Anxe]

I'd also agree with the 10% ruling for how much taxes would be. Unfortunately, there is a lot of missed payments on medieval taxes. Commoners tried to dodge them all the time. This sometimes led to tax collection being more like home pillaging. Up to you for which way you want to go on it.

[Jack_Simth]

Heroes are building a new town on a new world (While evacuating their current Demi-Plane everyone's been living on) because of the dangers of the old world. They are using their Landlord feat (soon to be feats I'm guessing when they level up) to build walls and some free housing/farms. But they would like to know how self sufficient the place will be, they have leadership so they would get minions to do Tax Collection.

If you want to model this after real life, and if this town is effectively self-contained, then for practical purposes, money doesn't exist as far as your question is concerned ... but that doesn't lead you in the direction you want. Still, rant: No, really: It's just shorthand for labor. The common man is taxed to pay the guard. Where does the money the guard gets go? Well, some of it goes to the blacksmith (a common man who was taxed), some of it goes to the miners who got the blacksmith the coal and iron (again, the miners are common people who were taxed), some of it goes to the farmers that grew the food the guard ate (... notice a pattern? You taxed those farmers to pay the guard). Some of it went to the weaver that put the guard's clothes together (... hmm... still taxed...). Some of it went to the shepherd that raised the wool (... yep, he's taxed too). And so on. The money is just a motivator and an ambiguation device.

So you want to look at labor. How much time does the common person spend on their own sustenance? How much time does the common person have available for work? The difference between the two is how much can be taxed without causing severe issues directly from too much taxation.

However, you want the money abstraction. So go with this spoiler, instead of the first:How much does the person you are taxing earn? How much does the person you are taxing need to spend to support themselves and their dependants? The difference between the two is how much money can be taxed without causing severe issues directly from too much taxation.

Spells help out with this - if you're distributing free food (via, say, a Cabinet of Feasting from the Stronghold Builder's Guide), then the food budget of your peasants is nil, and taxes can be increased by however much they'd be spending on food, otherwise. If you're distributing free shelter (via, say, castings of Wall of Stone to make workable huts), then the shelter budget of your peasants is nil, and taxes can be increased by however much they'd be spending on shelter, otherwise. And so on.

[Naomi Li]

10 gold pieces per week of income is probably a fairly decent estimate for mean income of the populace, assuming they're largely trained in crafts/professions that they're able to work in full time and have decently optimized their income. (Full ranks, skill focus, masterwork tools, possibly a competence boosting item (low level) and, if it's Pathfinder, Crafter's Fortune applied before every crafting check. So, ~40 gp/month income.

Pathfinder assumes that the head of house pays 10 gp/month and all others in the household pay 3 gp/month for their rather modest lifestyles. If you want higher living standards, allow for more than this. How many families are living together, how large those families are, etc will tell you how many resources (including craft checks to cook food, make clothing, etc) are consumed every month just to maintain their lifestyles.

Then you have savings and debts to consider. How much do they owe and have to pay back each month? How much can they afford to save for major expenses (getting a healer to come in and save their children from a disease, books, or maybe even "raise dead" or "reincarnation" spells for much higher standards of living, upgraded equipment, and many other possibilities) These are mostly about making long term improvements to their personal standards of living.

All of your taxes are going to be cutting into one or more of these areas, and with the vast majority of the setups will be hurting the poorest the most. If you're going purely for "maintain their current lifestyles with no improvements and they'll have to live with anything bad that happens", then you could probably get away with taxing as much as 50% of their income. If you want them to actually show their good alignments, significantly less would probably be called for. (Or even just their pragmatic neutral/evil alignments, since they won't get much loyalty for treating the populace horribly)

As a sidenote... it's impossible to tithe more or less than 10%. By definition, it is 10% of the (relevant) income.

[skyth]

Oh this book is a goldmine! Mostly useful in the next campaign but has lots of generalized and abstract systems for running everything from small shops to empires so you don't have to count out how many chickens each farmer sells but allows the PC's to have an effect on the world. :smallbiggrin: I am very very pleased.

I really need to read more pathfinder stuff but never bothered to borrow any as my group are comfortable with 3.5 for the most part.

Glad I could be helpful. I love systems like this (As I like to putz around by myself once in awhile :) )

It helps that almost everything for Pathfinder is available free online.

[Ranting Fool]

Don't suppose anyone knows if the Pathfinder Kingdom building rules from Ultimate Campaign have an equivalent of the Landlord feat?

[skyth]

What does the Landlord feat do?

[Ranting Fool]

What does the Landlord feat do?

Landlord is from Stronghold Builders Guide (3.0) and it basically gives you free cash to spend on your stronghold based on your level (as well as giving you a 2 for 1 on your own cash, you spend 2000 get 4000 worth of building done)

So it would give free/Bonus BP's if using the Pathfinder rules. Though I was hoping there was a patherfinder feat somewhere so I wouldn't have to make a guess at a conversion rate.

[skyth]

Nope. It's something that is earned in-game. It's suggested that the players be given 50 BP to form a new kingdom by some sort of sponsor. This wouldn't work in your situation though.

There is a direct GP->BP conversion though. (4,000 GP is on BP) That would make the conversion easy enough.