[PF] Duelist and Two Weapon Fighting

[Renegade Paladin]

The duelist class is clearly meant to model classic Renaissance-era fencing, but through either misunderstanding of how that actually worked in practice or some other factor, the Precise Strike ability has the following caveat:
When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield.
Pretty clear cut. However, we also have this, from the second level Parry ability:
Whenever the duelist takes a full attack action with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, she can elect not to take one of her attacks. At any time before her next turn, she can attempt to parry an attack against her or an adjacent ally as an immediate action.
Which leads to the question. Can a duelist use Two Weapon Fighting, not take the off-hand attack thereby getting Precise Strike, and then use the off-hand attack to parry? Given the fact that that's what a fencing dagger is for, I'm inclined to say yes (in fact such a thing models actual two weapon fighting better than the normal TWF mechanic), but that doesn't make it RAW. What says the Playground?

[Fosco the Swift]

Your best answer would be ask your DM, but as a Playgrounder I say that is perfectly fine. Its very realistic to how it works in the real world, and gives your character some uniqueness. You might come up with some resistance and trouble when youget riposte though.

[Fax Celestis]

By a very strict RAW reading, as long as you accept the TWF penalty but don't take your TWF attack, you most certainly can parry. It doesn't specify which attack you have to give up in your routine, just that you have to give up one.

[Da'Shain]

Yeah, if you're willing to take the -2 to hit on every attack you make during a round that you use the off-hand for parrying, no reason you can't do this.

I'm not sure I'd recommend this, though, unless I was very sure the campaign would involve facing mostly easy to hit enemies. You can use that feat for plenty of other useful stuff.

[avr]

It looks like it works thematically and by the rules.

Just one thing I'd disagree with. The duelist PrC is less about emulating RL Renaissance-era dueling and more about emulating movie-style fighting with rapiers IMO. Enhanced Mobility, Acrobatic Charge etc.

[GlorinSteampike]

That's how I've been playing it for years. I love duelist style characters and unfortunately Einhander in PF just didn't cut. I pretty much always carried two weapons on my duelists, even if they were like, defending weapons or had very niche uses, there was no reason not to.

[Blisstake]

I see no reason why you couldn't parry.

Because of the way it's worded, you can also combine flurry of blows with Precise Strike, since none of the attacks made during a flurry count as off-hand (there are a few ways to make unarmed strikes deal piercing damage).

[Renegade Paladin]

By a very strict RAW reading, as long as you accept the TWF penalty but don't take your TWF attack, you most certainly can parry. It doesn't specify which attack you have to give up in your routine, just that you have to give up one.
Having done that, do you still get the Precise Strike damage bonus, was really the thrust of the question.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes. You didn't attack with it, after all: you gave that attack up.

[HylianKnight]

I would say definitely yes, because the class itself later supports this assertion at 9th level.


At 9th level, a duelist gains the benefit of the Deflect Arrows feat when using a light or one-handed piercing weapon. The duelist does not need a free hand to use this feat.

If the Duelist abilities weren't meant to be workable with an offhand weapon, why does their 9th level ability give them a unique version of a feat so they can use it with no free hands? If the class was designed around only wielding a one-handed weapon, then that special ability would make zero sense. As it stands, it's a unique ability that allows you to use Deflect Arrows with a dueling dagger.

[grarrrg]

If the Duelist abilities weren't meant to be workable with an offhand weapon, why does their 9th level ability give them a unique version of a feat so they can use it with no free hands?

Most Duelist abilities work perfectly fine with an off-hand weapon.
Precise Strike is the _only_ ability that requires you not make an off-hand attack.
There are _no_ abilities that require an empty off-hand.
There are a few that require no _shield_ however.

Even the 3.5 Duelist has similar restrictions on the off-hand.
So I'm not quite sure where this "one weapon only, empty off-hand" belief comes from, other than enabling Precise Strike damage.

To tie this in to the OP question:
'Two-Weapon Fighting' can be quite useful, but 'Improved Two-Weapon' is much less so, as you cannot parry twice anyway.

I think the original intent was against this in spirit though, as in order to skip an attack, you have to be able to make that attack in the first place.
But Precise Strike damage isn't all that much, and you will have to take the -2 on all attacks/parries anyway, so it isn't all that powerful/broken anyway.

Heck, if you want to get technical, you could load up a Duelist with all the Natural Attacks you want, and it would STILL function exactly the same, and all the Natural Attacks would even get the Precise Strike bonus!! (so long as your one _actual_ other hand didn't attack).
Naturals are Light (see 2nd to last post) (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pcgk?Natural-AttacksLight-or-OneHanded-Weapons)