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Vistra
2013-10-04, 08:11 PM
I'm creating a Wizard for one of my upcoming campaings and was thinking about how cool the polymorph spell would be, to turn myself into a hydra, or a giant sounds awesome.

I don't want to break the game however. Should poly be banned from ever being used?

NeoPhoenix0
2013-10-04, 08:19 PM
The actual spell Polymorph isn't really broken. It is the rest of the polymorph line that is too powerful for its level to ridiculously over the top. Especially Polymorph Any Object, when you chain castings to get permanent results on something that isn't remotely like you.

Rubik
2013-10-04, 08:21 PM
Note that you'll only be able to Polymorph into a hydra if you're already Large size, since polymorph inherits the size restrictions of Alter Self.

Vistra
2013-10-04, 08:29 PM
Note that you'll only be able to Polymorph into a hydra if you're already Large size, since polymorph inherits the size restrictions of Alter Self.

Could you show me a ruling on this? From what I've read so far, it says only that you assume the new size.

Rubik
2013-10-04, 08:35 PM
Could you show me a ruling on this? From what I've read so far, it says only that you assume the new size.It's right in the text for Alter Self, which is inherited by Polymorph (since it's not overridden):


You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. Nothing about Polymorph overrides that (except you cannot be smaller than Fine size), so Polymorph still abides by that restriction.

eggynack
2013-10-04, 08:37 PM
Could you show me a ruling on this? From what I've read so far, it says only that you assume the new size.
Eugh. Also, gyuh. It's like a whole ambiguous and messy thing of some kind. The main source of the argument is whether the line, "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine," in polymorph completely overwrites the line, "The new form must be within one size category of your normal size," in alter self. A major problem is what the "except" in, "This spell functions like alter self, except," applies to. I'd just ask my DM if I were you, because folks are probably going to tell you that it's unambiguous in one direction or the other, and it is not that.

StreamOfTheSky
2013-10-04, 08:44 PM
Huh. I've never actually seen that argument. I think Polymorph overrides it, but in any case...

I would suggest not trying to become the big stupid fighter of the party via polymorph, unless you build for it (slightly less emphasis on casting stat, more on Con for hp; go into gish prestige classes, etc...). You're still squishy and the NPCs *will* justifiably throw everything they can at you to kill you dead. You do not get the hydra's regenerative qualities, nor the head splitting. I'd argue, you don't even get the full attack as a standard action thing, since having all the minds act as one seems more like a quality than an attack to me...

I'd suggest using Polymorph to buff the actual party fighter. That's the best part of the spell; it's not personal range.

eggynack
2013-10-04, 08:50 PM
Huh. I've never actually seen that argument. I think Polymorph overrides it.

I tend to agree, but there's definitely more than one interpretation of the text. It's not really a particularly fun argument to have, in my opinion, because it mostly just hangs out in pure semantics, and is a particularly ambiguous chunk of text at that.

Rubik
2013-10-04, 09:00 PM
I honestly can't see how "The new form must be within one size category of your normal size, but no smaller than Fine" is ambiguous under any possible interpretation that doesn't involve hallucinagens.

Cruiser1
2013-10-04, 09:33 PM
Especially Polymorph Any Object, when you chain castings to get permanent results on something that isn't remotely like you.
Casting Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) twice in a row to get a permanent duration is frequently mentioned as a powerful trick, however that's not necessarily RAW. It certainly isn't RAI.

Polymorph Any Object looks at your base unbuffed creature type when determining time limits. In the line, "the duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state", the original state means unbuffed state, not the state immediately before casting the spell. That means no casting Polymorph Any Object twice in a row to get a permanent duration. (There exist other things in D&D that consider unbuffed state, such as INT for skill points when levelling up.)

The intention of "unbuffed state" can be seen in the Polymorph spell, in the line "the new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types..." If the "same type as the subject" meant buffed state, then an Outsider that polymorphs into a human wouldn't be able to Polymorph back into itself (because its current type will be Humanoid, and Outsider isn't one of the normally valid target types for Polymorph). You should always be able to Polymorph into your natural form, and it would be pretty weird to suddenly have to use Dispel Magic or wait for the spell to end if you Polymorph into the wrong thing. :smallyuk:

Captnq
2013-10-04, 09:34 PM
Well, did you download the web enhancement that helps clarify polymorph?
Here. I included the rule addendum in The Spellbook.

POLYMORPH
- PLAYER’S HANDBOOK 1 (3.5)
Transmutation (Polymorph)
Level: Adept 4, Hexblade 4, Maho-Tsukai (3.0) 4, Runescarred Berserker 5, Shaman 4, Sorcerer/Wizard 4, Transformation Domain 5, Vadalis Beastkeeper 4, Wu Jen 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead. The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form (such as constrict, improved grab, and poison) but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form (such as blindsense, fast healing, regeneration, and scent) or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype (such as a lycanthrope or a doppelganger) can revert to its natural form as a standard action.
Material Component: An empty cocoon.
Alternate Material Component: Druid-tended silkworm cocoon [Extended] (850 gp)
Editor (Buff): Probably one of the most broken and open ended spells ever. If your type isn't Humanoid, it gets just as silly earlier. Far better than any other spell of its level, and many higher-level spells. The things you can do with this are ridiculous. It's completely broken, so much so WotC has given up on trying to fix it. Just don't use it. Works much like alter self, with a few changes. The polymorph spell allows for a much greater degree of change than alter self, and it also introduces a few new twists and complications. Here's an overview of the polymorph spell:
• Touch range spell with a target entry of "willing living creature touched." You can use polymorph to change yourself or another living creature you touch. The creature must be willing to receive the spell. The recipient can declare a willing target any time (even when flat-footed or during another creature's turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a creature that is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. You can share a polymorph effect you cast with a familiar, mount, or other companion with the share spells ability.
• You choose the form the subject assumes. Unlike in earlier versions of the game, the spell allows only one change in form. As with alter self, the subject remains in the assumed form until the spell ends. The spell is dismissible; if you are the spell caster, you can end the spell during your turn with a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you place the spell on another creature, it cannot dismiss the effect and it must remain in the assumed form until the spell ends. As with alter self, you can't use the polymorph spell to make the subject assume the form of an object. Unlike alter self, you can choose almost any kind of living creature for the assumed form. You can choose any of the following creature types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. As with alter self, there's no limit to the subtypes the subject can assume, so long as the base type is on the list given above. The subject cannot assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.
• The form the subject assumes can't have Hit Dice of more than your caster level, or the subject's own Hit Dice (whichever is lower) to a maximum of 15 Hit Dice. A form's Hit Dice refers to its racial Hit Dice, as noted in Part Two.
• The assumed form's size can be anything from Fine to Colossal. The kind of creature you choose for the assumed form determines the size. The subject becomes the same size as an average member of its kind. For example, if you turn the subject into a troll, the subject becomes size Large, which is the standard size for a troll.
• The subject temporarily gains the type and subtypes of the assumed form. The subject also temporarily gains the augmented subtype for its original type. The subject loses any subtypes it has in favor of the assumed form's subtypes. For example, a human turned into a troll gains the giant type and the augmented humanoid subtype. The subject retains the features of its own type. It gains the traits of the assumed type -- except for any extraordinary qualities included in those traits. If you're having trouble deciding which type of traits you gain, here's a list of what you get and what you don't.
Aberration Type
You get the following:
-- Proficient with the form's natural weapons. If generally humanoid in form, proficient with all simple weapons and any weapon the form is described as using.
-- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) the form is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Aberrations not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Aberrations are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
-- Aberrations eat, sleep, and breathe.
You don't get the following:
-- Darkvision out to 60 feet. (You don't gain this because it's an extraordinary special quality.)
Air Subtype
You get the following:
-- Air creatures always have fly speeds and usually have perfect maneuverability. You gain the assumed form's fly speed (subject to the limits noted in Part Two) and maneuverability.
Angel Subtype
You get the following:
-- Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification. (Immunity is a natural ability.)
-- +4 racial bonus on saves against poison. (Another natural ability.)
You don't get the following:
-- Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. (Extraordinary special quality.)
-- Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10. (Extraordinary special quality.)
-- Protective Aura. (Supernatural ability.)
-- Tongues. (Supernatural ability.)
Animal Type
You get the following:
-- Proficient with natural weapons. A noncombative herbivore uses its natural weapons as a secondary attack. Such attacks are made with a -5 penalty on the creature's attack rolls, and the animal receives only 1/2 its Strength modifier as a damage adjustment. (You become proficient with your natural weaponry. You don't forget what you know, but most animal forms don't allow you to wield weapons. You keep your own mind, but you don't keep your full attack capability when you assume the form of a noncombative herbivore because that's a natural limitation for the forms. Noncombative herbivores include creatures such as domestic cows and sheep.)
-- Proficient with no armor unless trained for war. (You don't forget what you know, but you don't pick up any armor proficiencies. In most cases, any armor you wear will meld into your assumed form.)
-- Animals eat, sleep, and breathe.
You don't get the following:
-- Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). (You usually keep your Intelligence score when changing forms; the baleful polymorph spell can be an exception.)
-- Low-light vision. (Extraordinary special quality.)
-- Alignment: Always neutral. (You usually keep your alignment when changing forms; the baleful polymorph spell can be an exception.)
-- Treasure: None. (You keep your stuff, though chances are most things you hold or wear would meld into your form if you changed into an animal.)
Aquatic Subtype
You get the following:
-- Water creatures always have swim speeds and thus can move in water without making Swim checks. You gain the assumed form's swim speed (subject to the limits noted in Part Two).
-- An aquatic creature can breathe underwater. It cannot also breathe air unless it has the amphibious special quality.
Archon Subtype
You get the following:
-- Immunity to electricity and petrification. (Natural ability.)
-- +4 racial bonus on saves against poison. (Natural ability.)
You don't get the following:
-- Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. (Extraordinary special quality.)
-- Aura of Menace (Su): A righteous aura surrounds archons that fight or get angry. (Supernatural ability.)
-- Magic Circle against Evil (Su): A magic circle against evil effect always surrounds an archon. (Supernatural ability.)
-- Teleport (Su): Archons can use greater teleport at will. (Supernatural ability.)
-- Tongues (Su): All archons can speak with any creature that has a language. (Supernatural ability.)
Chaotic Subtype
You get the following:
-- Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a chaotic alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment (a natural ability).
-- A creature with the chaotic subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were chaotic-aligned. (Another natural ability.)
Cold Subtype
You get the following:
-- A creature with the cold subtype has immunity to cold. It has vulnerability to fire, which means it takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from fire, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure. (A natural ability.)
Construct Type
Constructs are not alive, so you usually can't assume a construct form (but see Part Four).
Dragon Type
You get the following:
-- Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects. (Natural ability.)
-- Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to dragon form doesn't get you any weapon proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Proficient with no armor. (You don't forget any armor proficiencies you know, but most armor you wear will meld into the assumed form.)
-- Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe.
You don't get the following:
-- Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. (Extraordinary special quality.)
Earth Subtype
You get the following:
-- Earth creatures usually have burrow speeds, and most earth creatures can burrow through solid rock. (You get the assumed form's speed, subject to the limits noted in Part Two.)
Elemental Type
You get the following:
-- Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning. (Natural ability.)
-- Not subject to critical hits or flanking. (Another natural ability.)
-- Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to elemental form doesn't get you any weapon proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to elemental form doesn't get you any armor proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe. (A natural ability.)
You don't get the following:
-- Darkvision out to 60 feet. (Extraordinary special quality.)
-- Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature -- its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life. (If you had a soul before changing, you still have one after changing.)
Evil Subtype
You get the following:
-- Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. (A natural ability.)
-- A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (Another natural ability.)
Extraplanar Subtype
You gain this subtype when changing form only when the form you assume would have it. The subtype has no traits, but certain spells and other magical effects work in special ways against extraplanar creatures.
Fey Type
You get the following:
-- Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to fey form doesn't get you any weapon proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Fey not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Fey are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to fey form doesn't get you any armor proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Fey eat, sleep, and breathe.
You don't get the following:
-- Low-light vision. (Extraordinary special quality.)
Fire Subtype
You get the following:
-- A creature with the fire subtype has immunity to fire. It has vulnerability to cold, which means it takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from cold, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure. (A natural ability.)
Giant Type
You get the following:
-- Proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as any natural weapons. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to giant form doesn't get you any weapon proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Giants not described as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Giants are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to giant form doesn't get you any armor proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Giants eat, sleep, and breathe.
You don't get the following:
-- Low-light vision. (Extraordinary special quality.)
Goblinoid Subtype
You don’t get the following:
-- All goblinoids speak Goblin. (You don't suddenly speak Goblin just by changing form.)
Good Subtype
You get the following:
-- Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. (Natural ability.)
-- A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were good-aligned. (Another natural ability.)
Humanoid Type
You get the following:
-- Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to humanoid form doesn't get you any weapon proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to humanoid form doesn't get you any armor proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.
Lawful Type
You get the following:
-- Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a lawful alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. (A natural ability.)
-- A creature with the lawful subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were lawful-aligned (Another natural ability.)
Magical Beast Type
You get the following:
-- Proficient with its natural weapons only. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to magical beast form doesn't get you any weapon proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Proficient with no armor. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to magical beast form doesn't get you any armor proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe.
You don't get the following:
-- Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. (Extraordinary special qualities.)
Monstrous Humanoid Type
You get the following:
-- Proficient with its natural weapons only. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to monstrous humanoid form doesn't get you any weapon proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Proficient with no armor. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to monstrous humanoid form doesn't get you any armor proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe.
You don't get the following:
-- Darkvision out to 60 feet. (Extraordinary special quality.)
Native Subtype
You get the following:
-- These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype's name). (Natural ability, not that you're likely to need it.)
-- Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep. (Natural ability.)
Ooze Type
You get the following:
-- Blind, with immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight. (Natural ability.)
-- Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning. (Natural ability.)
-- Not subject to critical hits or flanking. (Natural ability.)
-- Proficient with its natural weapons only. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to ooze form doesn't get you any armor proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Proficient with no armor. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to ooze form doesn't get you any armor proficiency. Most armor you wear melds into your assumed form.)
-- Oozes eat and breathe, but do not sleep.
You don't get the following:
-- Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). (You usually keep your Intelligence score when changing forms; the baleful polymorph spell can be an exception.)
-- Blindsight (Extraordinary special quality.)
-- Some oozes have the ability to deal acid damage to objects. In such a case, the amount of damage is equal to 10 + 1/2 ooze's HD + ooze's Constitution modifier per full round of contact.
Outsider Type
You get the following:
-- Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to outsider form doesn't get you any weapon proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to outsider form doesn't get you any armor proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep. (Natural ability.)
You don't get the following:
-- Darkvision out to 60 feet. (Extraordinary special quality.)
-- Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature -- its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. (If you had a soul before changing, you still have one after changing.)
Plant Type
You get the following:
-- Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). (Natural ability.)
-- Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning. (Another natural ability.)
-- Not subject to critical hits. (Another natural ability.)
-- Proficient with its natural weapons only. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to plant form doesn't get you any weapon proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Proficient with no armor. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to plant form doesn't get you any armor proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Plants breathe and eat, but do not sleep. (A natural ability.)
You don't get the following:
-- Low-light vision. (Extraordinary special quality.)
Reptilian Subtype
This subtype has no traits; it merely designates certain kinds of humanoids.
Shapechanger Subtype
You get the following:
-- Proficient with the natural weapons, with simple weapons, and with any weapons mentioned in the creature's description. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to shapechanger form doesn't get you any weapon proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Proficient with any armor mentioned in the creature's description, as well as all lighter forms. If no form of armor is mentioned, the shapechanger is not proficient with armor. A shapechanger is proficient with shields if it is proficient with any type of armor. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to shapechanger form doesn't get you any armor proficiency that's not listed here.)
Swarm Subtype
You can't become a swarm by changing form.
Undead Type
Undead creatures are not alive, so you usually can't assume an undead form.
Vermin Type
You get the following:
-- Proficient with their natural weapons only. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to vermin form doesn't get you any weapon proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Proficient with no armor. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to vermin form doesn't get you any armor proficiency that's not listed here.)
-- Vermin breathe, eat, and sleep.
You don't get the following:
-- Mindless: No Intelligence score and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). (You usually keep your Intelligence score when changing forms; the baleful polymorph spell can be an exception.)
-- Darkvision out to 60 feet. (A natural ability.)
Water Subtype
You get the following:
-- Creatures with the water subtype always have swim speeds and can move in water without making Swim checks. A water creature can breathe underwater and usually can breathe air as well. You gain the assumed form's swim speed.
• Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night. The subject regains 1 hit point per character level. Character level includes racial Hit Dice and all class levels. The subject does not heal any temporary ability damage or get any other benefits of resting. Changing back does not heal the subject further. If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.
• The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. The subject retains its own mind, but its body is transformed into a semblance of the assumed form. Unlike previous versions of the D&D game, the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score. The subject's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores revert to normal when resuming its normal form, which may prompt another change in hit points. A change in ability scores might render some of the subject's feats unusable. If a feat has an ability score prerequisite that the subject no longer meets, the subject still has the feat, but cannot use it so long as the prerequisite is not met. If the subject has a prestige class that depends on an unusable feat, the subject cannot use any features of the class but retains any Hit Dice, base attack, and base save bonuses from the class and also retains weapon and armor proficiencies from the class.
• The subject's class and level, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses remain unchanged in the assumed form. The subject also retains all class features, as well as all skill ranks and feats derived from class levels.
• The subject retains the supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of its normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have. The subject loses breath weapons if the assumed form doesn't have a mouth and loses gaze attacks if the assumed form doesn't have eyes.
• The subject retains all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels. Extraordinary special attacks or qualities from class levels are primarily a function of the mind.
• The subject loses extraordinary special attacks and qualities not derived from class levels. Extraordinary special attacks and qualities are assumed to be largely a function of the body.
• The subject retains its ability to speak if the assumed form has that ability.
• The subject gains all extraordinary attacks of the assumed form, but no supernatural or spell-like attacks. The subject gains no special qualities of the assumed form at all. Extraordinary special attacks derive largely from the physical body, while extraordinary special qualities prove more subtle.
• The subject retains spellcasting abilities, if any.
• The subject has the physical qualities of the assumed form. Physical qualities include modes of breathing as well as modes of movement. If the assumed form has gills but no lungs it can breathe underwater but it cannot breathe out of the water and will begin to suffocate if stranded on dry land.
• The subject cannot take the form of any creature with a template, just as with the alter self spell.
• You can freely designate the assumed form's minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind, just as with the alter self spell.
• The subject is effectively disguised as an average member of the assumed form's race.
• When the change occurs, the subject's equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional.
• For purposes of most polymorph effects, one can divide creatures into types that have basically humanoid shapes and those that do not, as follows:
Humanoid Shapes Nonhumanoid Shapes
Fey Aberration
Giant Animal
Humanoid Dragon
Monstrous Humanoid Elemental
Outsider* Ooze
Vermin
*Most, but not all outsiders have humanoid shapes.
• In general, a change from one form that has a humanoid shape to another form that has a humanoid shape leaves all equipment in place and functioning. The subject's equipment changes to match the assumed form. It becomes the appropriate size for the assumed form and it fits the assumed form. The spellcaster can change minor details in your equipment, such as color, surface texture, and decoration.
• When a subject changes from a form with a humanoid shape to a form with a nonhumanoid shape (or vice versa) most of his equipment is subsumed into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. Items the subject could conceivably wear in an assumed form remain functional. For example, most items worn on the body, such as armor, cloaks, boots, and most other items of clothing made for a humanoid body won't fit on a non-humanoid body. Some items can fit on just about any kind of body. For example, a ring fits just about any form that has digits of some kind (the limit of two rings applies no matter how many hands or similar appendages a creature has). Likewise, a necklace fits on just about any form that has a neck.


That should cover everything.

Vistra
2013-10-04, 09:36 PM
Huh. I've never actually seen that argument. I think Polymorph overrides it, but in any case...

I would suggest not trying to become the big stupid fighter of the party via polymorph, unless you build for it (slightly less emphasis on casting stat, more on Con for hp; go into gish prestige classes, etc...). You're still squishy and the NPCs *will* justifiably throw everything they can at you to kill you dead. You do not get the hydra's regenerative qualities, nor the head splitting. I'd argue, you don't even get the full attack as a standard action thing, since having all the minds act as one seems more like a quality than an attack to me...

I'd suggest using Polymorph to buff the actual party fighter. That's the best part of the spell; it's not personal range.

But you gotta admit, turning yourself into a War Troll sounds like a lot of fun. From what I understand, you can polymorph yourself?

ryu
2013-10-04, 09:51 PM
But you gotta admit, turning yourself into a War Troll sounds like a lot of fun. From what I understand, you can polymorph yourself?

You can... It just puts you at unnecessary risk of dying and takes what little job the melee has if it works. If your group has a melee it's generally considered a bit mean to take the one thing they actually do from them.

rockdeworld
2013-10-04, 09:59 PM
But you gotta admit, turning yourself into a War Troll sounds like a lot of fun. From what I understand, you can polymorph yourself?
Yes, it is great. You get to replace your physical ability scores, with the only drawback being that you still have only 1/2 BAB and d4 hit dice with your original con modifier, so you might have be careful about charging into battle. Even so, polymorph gives you great things like a Pyrohydra's breath weapons followed by full-attacks and ability to walk through magma, an Umber Hulk's burrow and great NA and Str (and ability to still cast spells), a Mind Flayer's ability to extract brains, a Will-O’-Wisp's invisibility, a Firbolg's massive strength and martial weapon proficiency, a Wyvern's natural flight (and size big enough to transport party members) and poison (useful for taking out high DR enemies) and immunity to magical sleep/paralysis effects, and a Roper's immunity to crits/sneak attack and 6 attacks that deal Str damage. It's all in the book (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1096231).

NeoPhoenix0
2013-10-04, 10:07 PM
*snip*

I know where you're coming from, trust me. The thing is the term original state is never defined. The spell is extremely ambiguous under RAW. The term original state could refer to anything from the state you where in at the beginning of the universe, to the state you were born as, to your unmodified by magic state, to the state you were in before that casting of the spell. It really can be interpreted any number of way. The best cure for this is a DM who knows better than to allow rampant POA abuse, probably starting with the your unmodified by magic state interpretation.

Story
2013-10-04, 10:21 PM
You can... It just puts you at unnecessary risk of dying and takes what little job the melee has if it works. If your group has a melee it's generally considered a bit mean to take the one thing they actually do from them.

Persistent Draconic Polymorph into War Troll followed by Persistant Scintillating Scales would be helpful for not dieing even if you never plan to go into melee.

Incidentally, are there any tricks to convert your new massive CON score into extra hp? Seems a shame to waste it on only fort saves and concentration checks.

ryu
2013-10-04, 10:27 PM
I know story. I was talking about the likely intended use of exactly what the OP was talking about. Polymorph into a thing and wander into melee.

StreamOfTheSky
2013-10-04, 11:19 PM
Yes, it is great. You get to replace your physical ability scores, with the only drawback being that you still have only 1/2 BAB and d4 hit dice with your original con modifier, so you might have be careful about charging into battle. Even so, polymorph gives you great things like a Pyrohydra's breath weapons followed by full-attacks and ability to walk through magma, an Umber Hulk's burrow and great NA and Str (and ability to still cast spells), a Mind Flayer's ability to extract brains, a Will-O’-Wisp's invisibility, a Firbolg's massive strength and martial weapon proficiency, a Wyvern's natural flight (and size big enough to transport party members) and poison (useful for taking out high DR enemies) and immunity to magical sleep/paralysis effects, and a Roper's immunity to crits/sneak attack and 6 attacks that deal Str damage. It's all in the book (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1096231).

Pyrohydra's breath weapon, like all breath weapons, is Su. You don't get it. You also wouldn't get fire immunity, that's a quality.

Will-O'-Wisp's invisibility is a quality, you don't get that.

Firbolg's martial weapon proficiency, unless it's a racial bonus feat...you don't get it. It's a quality.

Wyvern's immunities...you don't get. Guess why.

Ditto for Roper's immunities (the strand attacks ARE super sexy, though..just have a flight spell up, they move like tortoises).

Unless you're talking about Shapechange or arguably (I think it should grant Ex qualities, but strict RAW it does not...oddly) PAO. The Polymorph spell is not nearly as good as you seem to think it is.

rockdeworld
2013-10-05, 01:30 AM
You're right about breath weapons, I was wrong about those, and had never checked the breath weapons entry on d20srd before. Thanks for correcting me.

For most the rest, you're arguing against Polymorph granting you the creature's type (fire immunity comes from being fire type), which is arguable by RAW, because Polymorph eplicitly says you can choose another type, which seems to override Alter Self's text about not changing type. To be fair, I didn't realize how arguable until you posted that. Thanks for keeping me on my feet.

Similar for Will-O-Wisp's invisibility.