97 Damage At Level One?

[MinMax Hardcore]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWULY-62Qh0

This powergamer claims his barbarian can do 97 damage, on
a crt, at level one. Is this possible?

Think of this as the D&D version of Myth Busters.
There got to be some cheese to deal this much damage at
level one as a melee class.

[GlorinSteampike]

I can't watch it because I am at work right now, but I can completely believe it. Especially if he's not using RAW WBL or ECL 1. A level 1 character with LA is definitely cheating though.

[Drelua]

Max damage with a scythe, 22 strength while raging?
That's 8 (2d4) + 9 (strength) + 2 (power attack) = 19
19 x 4 = 76

Not quite there, but if he was an orc his strength could be 26 while raging, for 8 + 12 + 2 = 22
22 x 4 = 88

There must be a way to get three more damage at level one, maybe a potion of bull's strength? That would get him to a max of 100 damage on a crit.

[limejuicepowder]

Well just off the top of my head...

Orc for a starting str of 22, rages to 26 (+8 modifier)

spirit lion whirling frenzy for 2 attacks on a charge

headlong rush (orc racial feat) for double damage on a charge

This gives two attacks on a charge at +9, 2d12+24 each, for a total of 52-96 damage total...and that's not even a crit. So yeah, it's possible and not even cheesy. It just needs the two best barb ACF, one of the best barb races, and the best feat of that race.

Edit: the feat actually might be heedless rush. I don't remember.

[eggynack]

On a crit? Yeah, probably. Start with 22 strength (+4 from water orc), and add +4 from rage, and you have 26. As a weapon, let's use a scythe for the *4 on crits. We're assuming max damage here, or at least I assume we are, so it comes out to 8 weapon damage, +12 from the strength. Multiply that by four, and you get 80. I'll add another eight, cause of power attack*4. After that, I'm going to give him whirling frenzy, so he attacks a second time. That gets you 176 damage if both hits crit, and definitely more than 97 if the second hit is calculated normal style.

Edit: Hark. In the distance, a swordsage approaches. He comes in multitudes, slouching ceaselessly towards my end. I can feel it, growing closer by the moment, and there is nothing left to do but wait for my demise.

[Emperor Ing]

Off the top of my head...
Be Large Size somehow, have a Large Greathorn Warhammer, minmax up your strength, Power Attack and Rage and somehow land a crit at x4 multiplier...getting to 97 or higher shouldn't be too hard.

Besides, 97 damage? That's an odd number, there's no way any crit would result in that.

[lsfreak]

Besides, 97 damage? That's an odd number, there's no way any crit would result in that.

Actually there would. A crit is not multiplied, but rolled extra times, so it needn't come out even. A crit greatsword isn't (2d6+6)*2, but 4d6+12.
(EDIT: Granted, most people, including myself, probably just multiply).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You only need to be able to get 25 damage on a normal hit to deal 97 damage on a critical hit with a x4 weapon.

A Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer (MM4) does 1d12 medium, flaws to get both EWP and Power Attack, with Orc + Rage for Str 26, that's 1d12+14 with a 19-20/x4. If your 4d12 averages 10.25 per die, you deal 97 damage.

If you start out as a Goliath, using the negative level adjustment variant in PGtF (gives a -1 to all your d20 rolls, DCs, and all racial bonuses that aren't ability scores or movement until you hit 2nd level and pay for the +1 LA), you can use a Large Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer, still with Str 26 raging, but now dealing 3d6+14 with a 19-20/x4. With average rolls (3.5 per d6), you can consistently deal 98 damage on a critical hit at level 1.

[limejuicepowder]

Actually there would. A crit is not multiplied, but rolled extra times, so it needn't come out even. A crit greatsword isn't (2d6+6)*2, but 4d6+12.
(EDIT: Granted, most people, including myself, probably just multiply).

Still though, if the figure is meant to be the max, Emperor Ing is correct that it can't be 97. 97 can be rolled for of course, but it can't be the max. Which raises the question why the youtube guy would list a lessor number when bragging about his barb.

My guess is that the player is fairly new and he had a friend make up a mid-OP barb for him. He then, in game, attacked for 97 damage. He then makes a vid bragging about it, not thinking about the actual math or potential to do more.

[MinMax Hardcore]

On a crit? Yeah, probably. Start with 22 strength (+4 from water orc), and add +4 from rage, and you have 26. As a weapon, let's use a scythe for the *4 on crits. We're assuming max damage here, or at least I assume we are, so it comes out to 8 weapon damage, +12 from the strength. Multiply that by four, and you get 80. I'll add another eight, cause of power attack*4. After that, I'm going to give him whirling frenzy, so he attacks a second time. That gets you 176 damage if both hits crit, and definitely more than 97 if the second hit is calculated normal style.

Edit: Hark. In the distance, a swordsage approaches. He comes in multitudes, slouching ceaselessly towards my end. I can feel it, growing closer by the moment, and there is nothing left to do but wait for my demise.

176 damage, wow, at level one. Makes me wonder how much damage he will do at lv 6?

[limejuicepowder]

176 damage, wow, at level one. Makes me wonder how much damage he will do at lv 6?

1000+

and no I'm not joking.

[Gemini476]

Off the top of my head...
Be Large Size somehow, have a Large Greathorn Warhammer, minmax up your strength, Power Attack and Rage and somehow land a crit at x4 multiplier...getting to 97 or higher shouldn't be too hard.

Besides, 97 damage? That's an odd number, there's no way any crit would result in that.

Math in D&D is weird sometimes. But yeah, 2d4*4=8d4 in D&D 3.5. (2d4)*4 is completely different.

Also of note is that in D&D, 2d4*4(crit)*2(Headlong rush?)=2d4*5=10d4.

[eggynack]

176 damage, wow, at level one. Makes me wonder how much damage he will do at lv 6?
Quite a bit less, probably (unless we're using some pretty high optimization. Shock trooper comes on line that level). Critical hits are rare, and max damage is a poor way to calculate damage output. What you really want is average damage against a given opponent. I mean, just on a basic level, you're going to want a weapon that is not a scythe. You'd generally get something like a greatsword for damage, a guisarme for tripping, or a spiked chain for costly super-tripping.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

176 damage, wow, at level one. Makes me wonder how much damage he will do at lv 6?

Don't be too impressed, that number is if he rolls the maximum result on both d20's for the attacks, and the maximum result on each of eight damage dice. You're not likely to get two natural-20 critical hits in two attacks, and especially not likely to roll maximum damage for both of those.

[Piggy Knowles]

Headlong Rush requires BAB +4.

[Ravens_cry]

You could still charge with a lance. With zero feat investment, you can get double damage on a mounted charge with a lance.

[icefractal]

Yeah, and if flaws are used then you can get Spirited Charge and Reckless Rage, for 3x(d8+15) => 60 average, 92 max crit. If you went Monkey Grip instead, you do worse in general, but you could reach 104 on a crit.

[Tvtyrant]

Minotaur Warhammer wielding Water Orc Barbarian can get 98 on an average crit while raging. Probably what he is thinking.

[Ortesk]

Slap proto template on a water orc, rage, 30 strength. should be more than enough

[GnomeGninjas]

I watched the video, he isn't actually bragging about a character build. He's just making a (bad) joke about how powergamers like to do absurd amounts of damage. It is completely possible to do that much damage though.

[Chronos]

Quoth eggynack:

I mean, just on a basic level, you're going to want a weapon that is not a scythe.
Actually, you do want either a scythe or a falchion (which of those two you choose is largely a matter of taste). Yeah, the damage dice are worse than for a greatsword or greataxe, but damage dice quickly become irrelevant compared to fixed damage bonuses like from Str, making the better-crit weapon better than the better-dice weapon.

[Silvanoshei]

Actually, you do want either a scythe or a falchion (which of those two you choose is largely a matter of taste). Yeah, the damage dice are worse than for a greatsword or greataxe, but damage dice quickly become irrelevant compared to fixed damage bonuses like from Str, making the better-crit weapon better than the better-dice weapon.

The Undead / Contructs and average DPS GreatSword shall and will disagree with you. :smallsmile:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer (MM4), 1d12 medium base damage, natural 19-20/x4.

Kaorti Resin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) Falchion, needs to start out as a +1 weapon or better, 2d4 medium base damage, natural 18-20/x4.

Undead, Constructs, and other crit-immune opponents are easy to deal with if you have decent spellcasters. Edit: And the average damage difference between a Falchion and a Greatsword is only 2 points of damage.

[Silvanoshei]

Edit: And the average damage difference between a Falchion and a Greatsword is only 2 points of damage.

Over the course of your characters career, that 2 points will make the gap in damage bigger and bigger. A single fight, not that special, over hundreds of fights, you start to see results.

[eggynack]

Actually, you do want either a scythe or a falchion (which of those two you choose is largely a matter of taste). Yeah, the damage dice are worse than for a greatsword or greataxe, but damage dice quickly become irrelevant compared to fixed damage bonuses like from Str, making the better-crit weapon better than the better-dice weapon.
Maybe. I dunno where the breakpoint is though, and it might be pretty high. It's not like the greatsword's crit ability is all that much lower, given that you're running an effective *3 (I'm pretty sure that the conversion factor is a direct one between range and multiplier).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Over the course of your characters career, that 2 points will make the gap in damage bigger and bigger. A single fight, not that special, over hundreds of fights, you start to see results.

Only if you're never facing opponents vulnerable to critical hits for those hundreds of fights, otherwise a 5% higher critical hit chance will more than make up for 2 damage per hit.

[Silvanoshei]

Only if you're never facing opponents vulnerable to critical hits for those hundreds of fights, otherwise a 5% higher critical hit chance will more than make up for 2 damage per hit.

2-handed str 1.5x bonus = win? :smallconfused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

2-handed str 1.5x bonus = win? :smallconfused:

The discussion was about using a Greatsword over a Falchion. Both are two-handed weapons, both get 1.5 Str per hit. The only difference is the Greatsword gets 2 more damage per hit on average, whereas the Falchion gets a critical hit 5% more often.

[Silvanoshei]

The discussion was about using a Greatsword over a Falchion. Both are two-handed weapons, both get 1.5 Str per hit. The only difference is the Greatsword gets 2 more damage per hit on average, whereas the Falchion gets a critical hit 5% more often.

Holy heck, I must have been thinking Scimitar, totally forgot Falchion was 2-handed. Good call.

[Silvanoshei]

So... the math is...

Greatsword: 10 hits out of 100 are crits, or 10%.
(90 x 7+ X) + (10 x 14+ 2*X) = 810 + 110X Damage

Falchion: 15 hits out of 100 are crits, or 15%
(85 x 5) + (15 x 8) = 575 + 115X Damage.

Solving for X gets you 47. So you need + 47 to damage, including 1.5*Strength mod, for the falcion to do more damage.

[eggynack]

So... the math is...

Greatsword: 10 hits out of 100 are crits, or 10%.
(90 x 7+ X) + (10 x 14+ 2*X) = 810 + 110X Damage

Falchion: 15 hits out of 100 are crits, or 15%
(85 x 5) + (15 x 8) = 575 + 115X Damage.

Solving for X gets you 47. So you need + 47 to damage, including 1.5*Strength mod, for the falcion to do more damage.
That's not quite accurate. You've left crit confirmation out of the calculation.

[Gemini476]

The discussion was about using a Greatsword over a Falchion. Both are two-handed weapons, both get 1.5 Str per hit. The only difference is the Greatsword gets 2 more damage per hit on average, whereas the Falchion gets a critical hit 5% more often.

Alright, here's the damage:
For the Falchion, it's 2d4 damage on a 2-17, and 4d4 on a 18-20.
For the Greatsword, its' 2d6 for 2-19 and 4d6 for 20.

That's an average of (5*16+10*3)/20=5.5 damage for the falchion.
For the greatsword, (7*18+14)/20=7 damage.

Of course, that increases with modifiers. Let's say that x=damage modifier.
Assume that x is identical for both weapons.

For the falchion, [16(5+x)+3(10+2x)]/20=[80+16x+30+6x]/20=(110+22x)/20=5.5+1.1x

For the greatsword, [17(7+x)+2(14+2x)]/20=[119+17x+28+4x]/20=(147+21x)/20=7.35+1.05x

The Falchion overtakes the Greatsword if x>37.

For those who are wondering, these are some other weapons:
Scythe: [18(5+x)+20+4x]/20=[110+22x]/20=5.5+1.1x

Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer (1d12, 19-20/x4): [17(6.5+x)+2(26+4x)]/20=[110.5+17x+52+8x]/20=[162.5+25x]/20=8.125+1.25x

Lance (mounted, (2d8+2x, x3)): [18(9+2x)+13.5+5x]/20=[175.5+41x]/20=8.775+2.05x

These number's don't include crit confirmation, because that is dependant on the AC and To-Hit of the specific attack.

If you want to calculate the damage for a specific weapon, feel free to do so!

B= Crit range (18-20 is 3, 19-20 is 2, etc.)
A= 19-B
C= chance of confirming crit in percent divided by 100, e.g 15%=>0.15

c= weapon damage, e.g. 2d4, 2d6, etc.
d= critical weapon damage e.g. 2d4*2=4d4, 2d6*2=4d6, etc.

x= damage modifiers, e.g. +2, +4, etc.
y= critical damage modifiers, e.g. +2*2=+4, +4*2=+8, etc.

[(A+1-C)*( c + x ) + C*(B)*( d + y )] / 20 =Average Damage

EDITED FOR CRIT CONFIRMATION AND ALSO GREATSWORD CRIT RANGE

[lsfreak]

That's assuming you only ever do enough damage to exactly drop an opponent, though. It gets much more complicated when you start dealing in the more accurate average number of hits to kill a target, as the extra two average damage on the greatsword may mean you drop the guy an entire round early, or may mean nothing at all because they take the same number of hits to kill with either weapon.

[Tengu_temp]

DND 3e math is made in such a way that, without anything that increases your crit confirm rolls or crit damage, each point of x2 crit chance gives +5% damage, each point of x3 crit chance gives +10% damage, and each point of x4 crit chance gives +15% damage.

This means that the average damage of a greatsword is 7.7+1.1*modifiers, and average damage of a falchion is 5.75+1.15*modifiers.
0.05*modifiers = 1.95
modifiers = 39
If your total damage modifier is +39, both weapons are equally good. Otherwise a greatsword is better.

However, using a keen weapon or the improved critical feat (and you have no reason not to use one when you can) tips the scales for the falchion's favour:
greatsword damage: 8.4+1.2*modifiers
falchion damage: 6.5+1.3*modifiers
0.1*modifiers = 1.9
modifiers = 19
If your damage modifier is better than +19, a falchion is better. Considering that getting +19 damage with a two-handed weapon is trivial by the point improved crit is available, I'd say falchion is objectively a better weapon at this point.

[Gemini476]

If your damage modifier is better than +19, a falchion is better. Considering that getting +19 damage with a two-handed weapon is trivial by the point improved crit is available, I'd say falchion is objectively a better weapon at this point.

...Unless the enemy has Fortification or some other way of being immune to critical hits, that is.

Also, is your math counting in the need to confirm crits?

[Tengu_temp]

Yes. My initial paragraph takes the need to confirm crits under consideration.

I don't count fortification because it heavily depends on the enemy, and is very rare if you're not fighting undead or constucts (against most of which you will want to use a blunt weapon anyway).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You have to also consider that an extra 5% crit chance means the opponent is attacking you for one fewer round about as often.

[eggynack]

Yes. My initial paragraph takes the need to confirm crits under consideration.
You didn't, really. All of these characters can have the same chance to confirm their crits, but if the chance to confirm is, say, 50%, you're halving the damage that crits provide on an average attack. It doesn't matter that that's true of all weapons, because we're essentially talking about the damage provided by crits relative to the damage provided by non-crits, so a reduction in confirmation from 100% makes a weapon balanced away from crits a better choice.

[Chronos]

But then, you also need to take into account the chance that the attack will hit at all. Since this is the same as the chance of confirming a threatened critical, it's a factor that shows up in every term, and thus cancels out.

Put it another way: Threatening a crit with a x2 weapon is basically the same as getting another attack with that weapon. Getting two attacks with a weapon obviously has twice the average damage as getting one attack with that weapon, all else being equal, and this is so no matter what the monster's AC.

The only catch is if your threat range is so large that it's larger than your hit range, but that's rather a corner case.

[Gemini476]

But then, you also need to take into account the chance that the attack will hit at all. Since this is the same as the chance of confirming a threatened critical, it's a factor that shows up in every term, and thus cancels out.

Put it another way: Threatening a crit with a x2 weapon is basically the same as getting another attack with that weapon. Getting two attacks with a weapon obviously has twice the average damage as getting one attack with that weapon, all else being equal, and this is so no matter what the monster's AC.

The only catch is if your threat range is so large that it's larger than your hit range, but that's rather a corner case.

...Also, feats and effects that give you bonuses towards confirming crits. Although those are pretty niche.

Oh yeah, and you do normal damage (and automatically hit) if you roll a nat 20 but fail to confirm the crit. That needs to be included in any calculations.

[eggynack]

But then, you also need to take into account the chance that the attack will hit at all. Since this is the same as the chance of confirming a threatened critical, it's a factor that shows up in every term, and thus cancels out.

Put it another way: Threatening a crit with a x2 weapon is basically the same as getting another attack with that weapon. Getting two attacks with a weapon obviously has twice the average damage as getting one attack with that weapon, all else being equal, and this is so no matter what the monster's AC.

The only catch is if your threat range is so large that it's larger than your hit range, but that's rather a corner case.
That's only true if the extra damage from crits and the chance of critting holds equal across weapons, which it explicitly does not. A higher percentage of a falchion's damage comes from crits, and to hit is taken into account twice with crits, and only once for non-crits. Thus, a higher to-hit leads to higher crit damage compared to non-crit damage.

[Equinox]

You can pump up the damage output a bit more using the Reckless Rage (RoS) feat and the Reckless trait (UA). Being doubly reckless, so to speak.

[Chronos]

No, it doesn't.

Let's call the chance to hit h, and assume that h is large enough that a threat is always a hit. Then the greatsword's average damage is
DG = (h-0.1)*(7+d) + 0.1*(1-h)(7+d) + 0.1*h*2*(7+d) + (1-h)*0
where the first term corresponds to the chance of a normal hit, the second term corresponds to the chance of an unconfimed threat, the third term corresponds to a confirmed crit, and the fourth (zero) term to a miss. Simplifying, we have
DG = [(h-0.1) + 0.1*(1-h) + 0.1*h*2]*(7+d)
= [h-0.1h+0.2h-0.1+0.1]*(7+d)
= 1.1h*(7+d)

Similarly for the falchion,
DF = (h-0.15)*(5+d) + 0.15*(1-h)(5+d) + 0.15*h*2*(5+d) + (1-h)*0
= [(h-0.15) + 0.15*(1-h) + 0.15*h*2]*(5+d)
= [h-0.15h+0.2h-0.15+0.15]*(5+d)
= 1.15h*(5+d)

If we wish to find the point where these two are equal, then
1.1h*(7+d) = 1.15h*(5+d)
1.1*(7+d) = 1.15*(5+d)
Or what Gemini476 said.

[Gemini476]

If we wish to find the point where these two are equal, then
1.1h*(7+d) = 1.15h*(5+d)
1.1*(7+d) = 1.15*(5+d)
Or what Gemini476 said.
For those who can't be bothered to read my wall of text up there, the Falchion is better if you have 38 or more extra damage.
Such as having a +5 Falchion, 30 Strength, and Power Attacking for 9 points, for example.