Do DMs that ask for a list of your spells/scrolls bother you?

[ShippoWildheart]

So twice so far in separate campaigns, my DM asked me for what spells I've prepared. Something about it just irks me majorly.

The first time it was on my Druid and it was on a play-by-post campaign. For an upcoming quest that involved tracking down a fugitive druid that stole some wolves. My DM wanted to tell him what spells I had prepared. The campaign never really got far enough to the encounter, but I really felt if the DM knew what spells I prepared, he'd change the encounter appropriately so it remained challenging.

Now my DM is doing a live game and this time I'm playing a support oriented cleric who's about as dangerous as a flailing turtle due to my +0 in STR/DEX. The rest of the party is level 6, and I'm just level 5 due to joining the campaign late. When I told him I had over 40 scrolls on my cleric because someone has to be prepared so the party won't be dying horribly, he wanted me to give him a list of my scrolls. It's all pretty much utility stuff like Lesser Restoration, Ant Haul Communal, Protection from Evil, Sanctuary, etc.

My only real deadly spell is a single scroll of Bestow Curse. My ability to fight is so bad that my only attack done in the campaign so far has been on a dead mimic to double tap, and I failed to hit the dead mimic. It's pretty much established my character is terrible for combat. Meanwhile, my friends, barbarian and a gunslinger, are dealing around 15-25 damage each on enemies, and my other friend playing an alchemist can bomb an entire location for decent AoE damage.

Now this is what really bothers me. Is he somehow so worried about my character, who is the Medic of the group, that I'd pull a Batman in his live campaign? I'm really trying not to feel like this is some kind of indirect way for the DM to control me by knowing what I have. Also feels like an invasion of privacy in a way.

[eviljav]

Of course not. No more than the DM should know your hitpoints or AC.

[Aegis013]

Have you just talked to him about it?

It honestly wouldn't bother me if a DM did that unless the encounters were clearly changed to nullify my spell choices after the fact, to answer the question.

[TuggyNE]

Is he somehow so worried about my character, who is the Medic of the group, that I'd pull a Batman in his live campaign? I'm really trying not to feel like this is some kind of indirect way for the DM to control me by knowing what I have.

Asking for sensible verification is not a sign of exceptional distrust. Rather, it's a fundamental part of keeping things running smoothly; how else can mistakes be caught, adjustments to available gear made, or fitting enemies be selected?

In short, "trust your neighbor, but tie your camel."


Also feels like an invasion of privacy in a way.

It isn't; your character does not exist except in the matrix of the game world, and the game world can only run by means of a DM. It's no more an invasion of privacy than your computer reading your email to determine who to send it to is.

[rot42]

The DM is being perfectly reasonable to want to know what you are bringing to the table. You should have included your list of scrolls when you presented your original character sheet or your character sheet on leveling up or been up front with your friend when buying scrolls in game. This is not some competition between you and the DM, and trying to surprise or "pull one over on" them is only going to make the game less fun for everyone at the table. If your preferred playstyle does not match the game your DM is running, you would be well served by discussing it not at the table and amicably looking for another game if necessary.

[ddude987]

Of course not. No more than the DM should know your hitpoints or AC.

Fixed that for ya

[Nettlekid]

Definitely fair of the DM to do. You're seeing it as "I have this thing and he'll change the encounter because of it," but what if the DM's thinking "I have this encounter and he'll say 'Oh one of my 40 scrolls perfectly nullifies that' even if he doesn't actually have one, if I don't check them in advance." If you were on an undead-killing mission, and suddenly for some reason it became a dragon-slaying mission, and you at the time of fighting the dragon but not before claimed to have a scroll of Shivering Touch, I as the DM would be suspicious, so in checking beforehand he'll know what you have to throw out.

[Emperor Tippy]

For a PBP game your spells prepared should be on your character sheet in the area provided and the DM is free to check or not at his discretion.

For a real life game I've found spell cards to work best. Type up the full spell for every spell that you have prepared and print out one for each spell slot (so three invisibility spells prepared means three Invisibility cards) and then just pull out the card when you use the spell.

No need to pull out the book for the exact wording of the spell, its easy to tell what you have available for the day to cast at any given time, it's accurate, and its easy to re-prepare spells for the next day (just put the cards back in.

In the RL case, no the DM doesn't need to see your spell list because he can tell if you cheat or not at a glance; although I would show it too him if he asked.

[Cybris75]

The players at my table police each others sheets for mistakes. When I DM, I check the PCs for stuff they can do so I don't accidentally TPK with an encounter they can't counter (or, accidentally make an important encounter too easy because a PC can do X but has never used it before).

I think checking the spells is perfectly reasonable, and I can let the PCs stumble over some scrolls they will need (but don't have) without ruining WBL.

[ShippoWildheart]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Alright, so I decided to just send him the list, and his reactions were essentially "oh jesus christ", and later on "You realize it's a little intimidating when you see 45 scrolls right?", but he then said it should be fine. He simply found the idea of a character having so many scrolls being weird. I'll take trust that this was just to see what I have, and not suddenly have things in the game work against me to either have everything in the game cause me to burn through my scrolls, or have my scrolls be ineffective for some arbitrary reason. For those that were curious, these were the scrolls my cleric is toting:


Scrolls:
Level 1:
2x Obscuring Mist
2x True Strike
3x Sanctuary
3x Protection From Evil
2x Clarion Call
3x Bless

Level 2:
2x Lesser Restoration
2x Silence
2x Protection from Evil, Communal
2x Remove Paralysis
2x Ant Haul, Communal

Level 3:
1x Bestow Curse
2x Dispel Magic
2x Resist Energy, Communal
1x Remove Blindness/Deafness
1x Remove Curse
1x Share Language, Communal
1x Speak with Dead
1x Bull's Strength
1x Bear's Endurance


None of it really screams "game/campaign" breaking. Just stuff I can't always prepare everyday since they're situational, or being backup scrolls in case I run out of a staple spell. Just a walking first aid kit.

[Kasbark]

Obviously the DM should know which spells you have prepared and which scrolls you have bought. Just like he should know your AC, your feats and your total hit points.

To be blunt i think the chance the DM will change encounters to counter a players spell selection is smaller than that of a player cheating with said spell selection.

[Waker]

As a DM, I would like to know what scrolls a player has, along with any other equipment. Spells prepared I generally don't care about, unless the player has the seemingly miraculous ability to always have the exact spell they need to solve a situation, even when it really doesn't make sense. Like if the party has been trekking through a desert and stumbles across an underground river, if one of the players happens to say "I have Water Breathing prepared!" I will probably ask to see their sheet. So unless a Player has demonstrated some questionable behavior, I tend to extend trust to them.

[the_david]

Now this is what really bothers me. Is he somehow so worried about my character, who is the Medic of the group, that I'd pull a Batman in his live campaign? I'm really trying not to feel like this is some kind of indirect way for the DM to control me by knowing what I have. Also feels like an invasion of privacy in a way.

I'm confused. You spend all your money on scrolls, you're worthless in combat and you want to help the party by healing them? I think the DM might be worried about your cleric being the waste of space in the party instead of the Batman.

[Ellye]

Obviously the DM should know which spells you have prepared and which scrolls you have bought. Just like he should know your AC, your feats and your total hit points.I agree.

Honestly, I'm baffled by this thread and most of the replies, because I've never heard of a DM not knowing (or having easy and open access to) every possible information of every playing character in his game.

[Squirrel_Dude]

It doesn't bother me. As a DM I like knowing all my players and their powers, so that if I need to come up with something on the fly, I hopefully can make sure that my players can accomplish their goal.

[Waker]

I'm confused. You spend all your money on scrolls, you're worthless in combat and you want to help the party by healing them? I think the DM might be worried about your cleric being the waste of space in the party instead of the Batman.

Nothing wrong with being a Medic in D&D. Now if he actually wastes spell slots by preparing Cure spells that would be wasteful. Last Cleric I played was a medic-type, nearly every spell was a buff or some kind of curative spell, wasn't much of a combatant, but the party wouldn't have gotten fair without me there.

[Zanos]

I primarily play online/skype campaigns so after every rest I just shoot my DM a message with my prepared spells. Scrolls are part of my inventory, and therefore on my character sheet, which my DM can access at his leisure.

If the DM was preparing every encounter to specifically counter what spells I had prepared that day(i.e. everything is undead when i prepare cloudkill, and undead suddenly go away when I don't) I would probably be rather irritated, but that sounds like a talk you'd need to have with your DM about being a jerk.

I would find a campaign where your DM didn't have access to your character sheet when s/he wanted to look at it very odd.

[Ranting Fool]

As a DM (I never get to be a PC :smalltongue:) I almost always ask what spells are prepared when we start a session as well making sure players update me with their character sheets with correct gear.

Rarely is this an issue of trust and much more an issue of "oh crap they've got a scroll of X now which they haven't used before which means they can affect Y and I've got no plans what-so-ever on Y. Better make some quick so I don't end up having to call a brake while I slap something halfarsed together"

This also goes for items and such since so many provide abilities or effects that give options to a player.

[Der_DWSage]

I've got to agree with the general theme of the thread-it's not a bother to me at all, personally. If I did feel it was a bother, it'd be because I distrust the GM for other reasons.

As a player, I tend to write all my prepared spells on an index card and mark them off, so I can give the GM peace of mind that I've actually thought out my spell list and I'm not spontaneously changing things I don't have. (A step below Tippy's own spell cards, but I'm also lazier.)

As a GM? I tend to look over peoples' spells to ensure they have the right number, that they haven't prepared from the wrong list, and other miscellaneous things, mostly because my recent groups are newbies to D&D and Pathfinder. It's not a criticism to them-it's just making sure that they do, in fact, have what they're supposed to have.

And regardless of all that, I have to agree with the DM-The initial thought of someone having 45 scrolls at creation is that they have Batmanned for every potential problem ever possible, and have JUST the scroll for the right occasion. (I've done it before, after all. Bat-Beguiler is a fun concept.) Your list has very few problems, and most of those spells are ones I'd prepare on a regular basis anyway. (The only ones I see being really situational are Share Language and Speak With Dead.) But that doesn't mean that another player wouldn't have 45 scrolls of various contingency plans, 'just in case' situations, and a few save-or-dies.

[CombatOwl]

So twice so far in separate campaigns, my DM asked me for what spells I've prepared. Something about it just irks me majorly.

The first time it was on my Druid and it was on a play-by-post campaign. For an upcoming quest that involved tracking down a fugitive druid that stole some wolves. My DM wanted to tell him what spells I had prepared. The campaign never really got far enough to the encounter, but I really felt if the DM knew what spells I prepared, he'd change the encounter appropriately so it remained challenging.

Now my DM is doing a live game and this time I'm playing a support oriented cleric who's about as dangerous as a flailing turtle due to my +0 in STR/DEX. The rest of the party is level 6, and I'm just level 5 due to joining the campaign late. When I told him I had over 40 scrolls on my cleric because someone has to be prepared so the party won't be dying horribly, he wanted me to give him a list of my scrolls. It's all pretty much utility stuff like Lesser Restoration, Ant Haul Communal, Protection from Evil, Sanctuary, etc.

My only real deadly spell is a single scroll of Bestow Curse. My ability to fight is so bad that my only attack done in the campaign so far has been on a dead mimic to double tap, and I failed to hit the dead mimic. It's pretty much established my character is terrible for combat. Meanwhile, my friends, barbarian and a gunslinger, are dealing around 15-25 damage each on enemies, and my other friend playing an alchemist can bomb an entire location for decent AoE damage.

Now this is what really bothers me. Is he somehow so worried about my character, who is the Medic of the group, that I'd pull a Batman in his live campaign? I'm really trying not to feel like this is some kind of indirect way for the DM to control me by knowing what I have. Also feels like an invasion of privacy in a way.

No. I often ask not for the purpose of changing encounters, but to survey the magic that characters have available for dealing with challenges. It makes no sense to throw an impassable glass wall meant to be passed with Fly, if no one bothered to prepare enough fly spells to get the party over the wall.

[Kudaku]

The two parties I play with both keep up to date PDF copies of our character sheets in a dropbox specifically so the GM can take a look at them when needed. Sometimes its just to make sure that the math checks out since some of our players are a little shaky on the rules (your 7th level TWF fighter has how much to hit?!?) but it's also used to have a general idea of what the party is and isn't able to do.

It doesn't bother me one bit.

[skyth]

I have an advantage in that the game I run is over Skype and I use Maptools. I have my Maptools coded to handle all the calculations for to-hit, etc. It also tracks the spells that are currently prepared for each character and marks them off when they are cast.

I don't have to worry about asking the players to see their character sheets for spells or most other details because it's all coded into their character in the program and if I want to, I can check it.

[ahenobarbi]

I also think in PBP DM should be able to see your spells prepared, to prevent cheating.

In IRL games it might be a good idea for DM to check your prepared spells from time to time (I write down prepared spells and I could cheat. Like prepare more spells than my character can memorize, or prepare non-domain spell in domain slot etc.).


For a real life game I've found spell cards to work best. Type up the full spell for every spell that you have prepared and print out one for each spell slot (so three invisibility spells prepared means three Invisibility cards) and then just pull out the card when you use the spell.

Hmm I might borrow that idea next time I play (unless laziness wins).

[johnbragg]

Chiming in, DM might just be making sure that you have your spell list done. He might have also played with a Schrodingers' spellcaster before, and is just being cautious.

45 scrolls for a starting character is rather a lot--if I were DMing a player for the first time, and heard 45 scrolls, I'd worry that a player had found some exploit, and either decide to allow it, or have a talk with the player. Cleverness should be rewarded sometimes--let's see what you do with those 5 scrolls of enlarged mage hand. But gamebreaking exploits, or ridiculous behavior should not. You don't start with 40 scrolls of enlarged mage hand--you're either wasting resources that you should be using to help the party, or you have something awful planned that will make me not want to DM.

[Tim Proctor]

Yeah, I always check spells, gold, equipment, potions, ammo, etc. I even check what the characters are thinking all the time, and ask why when to do something that isn't obvious. I always aim to leave the group broken, battered, exhausted, and out of resources but alive when they complete an adventure and that takes fairly good planning and information.

Guess 'privacy' isn't in my campaigns.

[Pentagon]

I'd go a step further to say the GM 'should' be cheating! I run a very low powered game where the players are all new to the game and are playing a classic cleric/fighter/wizard/ranger party.

If the players have spend many sessions tracking down a big bad and then the wizard goes Sleep on him and even with his massive Will save he rolls a 2 and fails drops down basically dead post coup-de-grace. That is an ultimately lame ending. Accordingly, I take party resource into account when designing the encounters so a big bad guy might be a half elf, or have 5HD or whatever. But equally I'd add some support so that the enchanter can feel useful keeping the bosses support of the players or whatever.

At the end of the day, I am not running a competitive battle system vs them, I am running entertainment for them. In my experience stripping through players resources, hp/wands whatever makes them feel they have achieved something. In order to be able to make a challenging but worth while set of encounters you need to know what your players can do, if I'm unsure I playtest the encounter with the character sheets as I take them in after each session.

I did have a player who got upset with me asking him to role on the table so I could see, inspecting his prepared spells etc. You get the question: Do you think i'm cheating?? I just responded that I needed to check everything that was going on to ensure mistakes weren't made- though like another post above the best players help each other which is great when you have new players who learn the concepts of skills, saving throws slower.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Unless the encounters themselves are suspiciously tailored to counter your spell load-out I'd give the DM the benefit of the doubt. It is his prerogative to know what spells you have prepared, to make sure you're not fooling around.

That said...
I'd go a step further to say the GM 'should' be cheating!No. This is exactly why the OP feels uncomfortable. You may think you're creating a fun shared experience. Well, if you have a player like the OP (or me) in your group, you're not. Victories are hollow, and setbacks are bull droppings.

You have infinite in-game resources to use to make an encounter special that don't involve stealth-nerfing someone's save-or-X to never, ever work*. Encounters don't have to be special snowflakes that should never end without some hard work by the players. If you are going to flub his roll just tell the wizard to prepare something else outright. Don't let him waste his time on things you've decided "shouldn't" affect the battle.

*In early 4e Sleep was actually one of the best spells in the game, because there are few immunities and no HD cap, and you could penalize their saving throws so that they'd need a very high roll to avoid taking a nap. Well, I had such a character cast sleep basically every fight, and it worked... on one skeleton minion. Once. At a certain point I just wanted to see it work, otherwise I would have just swapped it out for something else. Then I played another campaign with a rampaging barbarian who wiped out encounters with damage, and since it didn't just auto-kill things in one round it didn't get nerfed at all.

[Raven777]

I'll have to agree with GoodbyeSoberDay. I also think that players should be allowed to get the drop on the DM from time to time, which means the DM should not be constantly aware of the party's entire set of abilities. After all, being surprised is part of the fun on both sides of the table.

[TriForce]

i dont get it. i get the idea from your post that you are in a campaign with people who arent close personal friends of you.

so why shouldnt the DM know everything about your character? the risk of you (or anyone) cheating is pretty big to be blunt about it.

plus even assuming he doesnt mistrust anyone, the biggest task of the DM is making sure that what he puts you up against is challenging, but not impossible. he needs to know precisely what you are capable of in order to make sure that the campaign isnt so easy it becomes boring, or so hard you have no chance.

[johnbragg]

I'll have to agree with GoodbyeSoberDay. I also think that players should be allowed to get the drop on the DM from time to time, which means the DM should not be constantly aware of the party's entire set of abilities. After all, being surprised is part of the fun on both sides of the table.

The flip side of that though is a lot less fun.

"The fighter, wizard and cleric approach the door. It's locked."
"What do you mean you dumped Knock today for an extra Mirror Image? Crap."

[Psyren]

The campaign never really got far enough to the encounter, but I really felt if the DM knew what spells I prepared, he'd change the encounter appropriately so it remained challenging.

God forbid he challenges you! How horrible!


Also feels like an invasion of privacy in a way.

There is no privacy from the DM. He/She's expected to know everything about your character, even if the other players don't.

[Toy Killer]

For a real life game I've found spell cards to work best. Type up the full spell for every spell that you have prepared and print out one for each spell slot (so three invisibility spells prepared means three Invisibility cards) and then just pull out the card when you use the spell.

No need to pull out the book for the exact wording of the spell, its easy to tell what you have available for the day to cast at any given time, it's accurate, and its easy to re-prepare spells for the next day (just put the cards back in.


On a similar note, For spontaneous spell casters, I use poker chips. each level a different color with the number painted on one side. When used, take the chip and it's very obvious how much punch the sorcerer or whomever has in reserve.

I tend to write out the spell sheet for the players, and a flow chart for combat bonuses for rangers. (I had a ranger that had difficulty keeping track of his bonuses, as things rapidly changed depending on what he was attacking, if he was using rapid shot, etc. it just made the game flow smoother)

[genesaika]

As a DM I'd want to know what you have access too even if you play a support character. What if you have something he banned? What if he wants to make an encounter that puts you in the spotlight? Maybe he has a major plot point set up, but this one spell can skip it?

His objective isn't, or shouldn't be, to destroy you. He wants to have fun watching the group play through his world.

If nothing else the DM should know so that the player can't just say" Oh I've got this prepared spell/scroll that is perfect for countering this! " what is your DM to do if he has no idea if you really have that?

[Yogibear41]

Might as well be a spontaneous caster if you are playing an online game and don't tell the DM what spells you have prepared. Although I strongly disagree with him changing the encounter based on what spells you have prepared, if he is indeed doing that.

[Raven777]

The flip side of that though is a lot less fun.

"The fighter, wizard and cleric approach the door. It's locked."
"What do you mean you dumped Knock today for an extra Mirror Image? Crap."

Looks like it's finally Fighter's time to shine! :smallbiggrin:

[nyjastul69]

It's important for the DM to know the characters possessions so that he can properly reward them. It's easier for me to distribute treasure if I know what the party already has.

[Psyren]

Might as well be a spontaneous caster if you are playing an online game and don't tell the DM what spells you have prepared. Although I strongly disagree with him changing the encounter based on what spells you have prepared, if he is indeed doing that.

It shouldn't necessarily be based on what spells you have prepared, but it certainly can and should be based on what spells you know. Any BBEG worth his salt can do basic recon, whether through divination, reports from minions, or witnessing the PCs' tactics firsthand.

For example, in OotS, we see Roy planning ahead based on Xykon's spells known list. That's not metagaming, that's sense.

[Alaris]

As a DM, I would respond thusly to a player who refused to give me his prepared spell list/scroll list/inventory list:

Okay, there's the door. You can leave now. (I need to know everything about your character, to provide you a suitable challenge and a fun game).


If I don't know what you can do, I won't know for sure how to challenge you. Or what might overkill you. The DM is not your opponent, he is a participant in the game. He is there to have fun, just like you, and is there to provide a fun, and enjoyable game.

[Yogibear41]

It shouldn't necessarily be based on what spells you have prepared, but it certainly can and should be based on what spells you know. Any BBEG worth his salt can do basic recon, whether through divination, reports from minions, or witnessing the PCs' tactics firsthand.

For example, in OotS, we see Roy planning ahead based on Xykon's spells known list. That's not metagaming, that's sense.

Well that's different, I was thinking more of DM knowledge and not in-game Knowledge. Like oh I see you have various frost based spells prepared I think I will have 10 winter wolves ambush you. That kinda stuff.