Two Weapon Fighting

[Matthew]

So, Two Weapon Fighting pretty much sucks in comparison to Two Handed Fighting as we all know and loudly proclaim when somebody says otherwise.

In an effort to make it a more viable choice, how would making Two Weapon Fighting a Standard Action affect the game? Are there already ways to do so? What about combining it with getting 1 x Strength Bonus to Damage with Off Hand Attacks?

Just occurred to me because of the common misconception that Two Weapon Fighting works with Spring Attack, what if it did?

[Skyserpent]

It wouldn't make much of a differrence. Spring Attack isn't any big shakes. I think it takes too many feats to be really worthwhile.

2 weapon fighting is only really good for Rogues, because they have an alternative source of damage that doesn't rely on two handed sword wielding.

[Thomas]

It's a fine option for several builds; rogues, duelists (TWD requires TWF), etc. I don't see any real need to change it.

[Bears With Lasers]

TWD is a crap feat, though.

[Gorbad the Limb Rippa]

I find that twf is more greatly used and appreciated when the character concept demands it.
In my peersonal view it makes the character weilding the duel weapons seem more like an expert in what he does,it also just seems cool

[Thomas]

TWD is a crap feat, though.

It's a nice enough tree for a Duelist. +6 AC when fighting defensively, on top of the +10 from being a Duelist, the +2 from fighting defensively, the +1 from Tumble ranks... You don't want to waste that other hand, so you want to hold (not attack with, mostly) a +5 defending dagger, and TWD adds a bit more to the AC (+6 is 30% less chance to be hit).

[TheOOB]

Really anyone who has some sort of extra source of damage that is added to each attack (sneak attack, sudden strike, ect) can benefit from TWF, otherwise your taking -2 on attack rolls and enchanting two weapons serperatly to do 2H damage.

[Yuki Akuma]

Dual Strike, Complete Adventurer. Attack with both weapons as a standard action, with (I think) a -2 to attack, and only deal precision damage once (good for flaming-and-so-on weapons, okay for duelists with spring attack, good for little else).

[Jimp]

You know what would be a really cool concept for a Dual Wielding character? A good Drow with dual scimitars

[Matthew]

Quiet you.

Drizzt was an illegally statted Character in previous editions (5 Attacks? Say What?). My disdain for him runs deep, but the power of 3.x Two Handed Fighting has proven just as annoying as that of 2.x Two Weapon Fighting.

[bosssmiley]

You know what would be a really cool concept for a Dual Wielding character? A good Drow with dual scimitars

Thanks Jimp. Now we must burn down this thread and sow the area with salt to prevent the D****'tine taint from spreading. :smallwink:

As the ever-wise Yuki Akuma has said, things like Dual Strike and Two-Weapon Rend do serve to make TWF a little less (arguably) sub-optimal. But then again, I just fail to see how something so key to a Ranger/Dervish/Tempest build as TWF can be called in a any way a sub-op' combat choice. :smallconfused:

[Bears With Lasers]

Dual Strike is terrible. Don't Do It.

Edit: frankly, THF dervishes can be as deadly as (or, with the right feats, much deadlier than) TWFing ones.

[Gorbad the Limb Rippa]

Whats with all the hatin' towards said drow with 2 scimatars?
There is nothing wrong with him,he is just a caracter from a book.

[Matthew]

Probably best to start a new 'Drizzt, Why All the Hate?' Thread, if people really want to discuss this.

[Were-Sandwich]

Make it work as an attack action, so you can move and attack with both weapons on the same turn, and it also works with Spring Attack. Maybe let Rapid Assault and Blitzing Strike give you an extra offhand attack along with your normal attacks to make it more effective.

[Leon]

Why is Dual Strike such a bad feat?

I've been looking at it in a idea for a character inspired by the Sword & Board thread

[Jimp]

If you use the Dual Strike feat with Sneak Attack won't you get the extra damage twice? That would be handy.

[Matthew]

Sadly no, something to do with Precision Damage.

[Beleriphon]

I mentioned this in aother thread but Two-weapon Rend and Two-weapon Pounce (think thats the name) allow for a full attack on a charge and if one main hand and the off hand attack hit you deal an automatic extra +2d6 damage.

Is it as good as a +gajillion damage two hander barbarian? No, but its still fun and is decent damage. Besides, free damage is always a good thing.

[Roderick_BR]

2 Handed Fighting:
Weapons: Greatsword +2
Strenght: 18
Feat: Weapon focus(Greatsword), Weapon Specialization(Greatsword)
Attack bonuses: +10/+5
Final Attack bonuses: +17/+12
Damage: 2d6 + Strenght 4 (+2 for 2-handed) + Specialization 2 + magic +2 = 2d6 +10
Total damage round: 22

2 Weapon Fighting
Weapons: Longsword +2, Short Sword +2
Strenght: 18
Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon focus(Longsword), Weapon focus(Short Sword), Weapon Specialization(Longsword) Attack bonuses: +10/+5, Weapon Specialization(Short Sword)
Attack bonuses: +10/+5
Final Attack bonuses: +15/+15/+10/+10
Damage: 1d8 + Strenght 4 + Specialization 2 + magic +2 = 1d8 +8
1d6 + Strenght 2 (half strengt) + Specialization 2 + magic +2 = 1d6 +6
Total damage round: 16 + 12 = 28, plus twice the chance to score a critical each round.

Explain to me why "Two Weapon Fighting pretty much sucks in comparison to Two Handed Fighting" again? Yes, it does require a whole lot more feats, and twice the magic enchantment costs, and you can't use both when using only a default action, but it's still better. I have a friend that did a TWF Fighter, and he defeated a pack of trolls alone, just before they were about to kill the mage AND the druid.

[Matthew]

I mentioned this in aother thread but Two-weapon Rend and Two-weapon Pounce (think thats the name) allow for a full attack on a charge and if one main hand and the off hand attack hit you deal an automatic extra +2d6 damage.

Is it as good as a +gajillion damage two hander barbarian? No, but its still fun and is decent damage. Besides, free damage is always a good thing.

Not quite what happens as far as I can tell. Two Weapon Pounce lets you make two Attacks, one with each weapon, at the end of a Charge. You need BAB 6 to get it. It isn't bad, though.

Two Weapon Rend grants 1D6 + [1.5 Strength Bonus] additional Damage if you hit with both weapons, as part of the Off Hand Attack. It's not clear to me whether this happens each time you hit with both weapons or what.


2 Handed Fighting:
Weapons: Greatsword +2
Strenght: 18
Feat: Weapon focus(Greatsword), Weapon Specialization(Greatsword)
Attack bonuses: +10/+5
Final Attack bonuses: +17/+12
Damage: 2d6 + Strenght 4 (+2 for 2-handed) + Specialization 2 + magic +2 = 2d6 +10
Total damage round: 22

2 Weapon Fighting
Weapons: Longsword +2, Short Sword +2
Strenght: 18
Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon focus(Longsword), Weapon focus(Short Sword), Weapon Specialization(Longsword) Attack bonuses: +10/+5, Weapon Specialization(Short Sword)
Attack bonuses: +10/+5
Final Attack bonuses: +15/+15/+10/+10
Damage: 1d8 + Strenght 4 + Specialization 2 + magic +2 = 1d8 +8
1d6 + Strenght 2 (half strengt) + Specialization 2 + magic +2 = 1d6 +6
Total damage round: 16 + 12 = 28, plus twice the chance to score a critical each round.

Explain to me why "Two Weapon Fighting pretty much sucks in comparison to Two Handed Fighting" again? Yes, it does require a whole lot more feats, and twice the magic enchantment costs, and you can't use both when using only a default action, but it's still better. I have a friend that did a TWF Fighter, and he defeated a pack of trolls alone, just before they were about to kill the mage AND the druid.

Basically, it sucks because you have to hit multiple times to get the same sort of Damage as from Two Handed Fighting and require a ton of Feats to do it. Factor in Power Attack and things rapidly go south. You also have to rely on Multiple Ability Scores [i.e. Strength and Dexterity], the latter of which has to be maddeningly high to compete.

[Beleriphon]

Not quite what happens as far as I can tell. Two Weapon Pounce lets you make two Attacks, one with each weapon, at the end of a Charge. You need BAB 6 to get it. It isn't bad, though.

Two Weapon Rend grants 1D6 + [1.5 Strength Bonus] additional Damage if you hit with both weapons, as part of the Off Hand Attack. It's not clear to me whether this happens each time you hit with both weapons or what.


Time to check the feats again! I suppose I have only myself to blame based on my shoddy memory and posting at work.

[Matthew]

Here's some additional data:

Dungeons & Dragons
Sneak Attack

Rogue 1 (Level One, Dexterity 16, using one Short Sword)


Feats: None Relevant,

+ [Flanking]

Primary Attack: [0+2] = +2

[Short Sword + Sneak Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D6+1D6] = 2D6


Rogue 2 (Level One, Dexterity 16, using two Short Swords)


Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,

+ [Flanking] – [Two Weapon Fighting Penalty]

Primary Attack: 0+2–2 = +0
Primary Offhand Attack 0+2–2 = +0

[Short Sword + Sneak Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D6+1D6]
Primary Offhand Attack Damage: [1D6+1D6]


Fighter 1 (Level One, Strength 16, using Great Sword)


Feats: Weapon Focus, Power Attack,

+ [Strength] + [Flanking] + [Weapon Focus]

Primary Attack: 1+3+2+1 = +7

[Great Sword + (Strength x 1.5) + Power Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [2D6+4+X]
Secondary Attack Damage: [2D6+4+X]


[B]Fighter 2 (Level One, Strength 16, using Long Sword and Shield)


Feats: Weapon Focus, Power Attack,

+ [Strength] + [Flanking] + [Weapon Focus]

Primary Attack: 1+3+2+1 = +7

[Long Sword + Strength + Power Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D8+3+X]
Secondary Attack Damage: [1D8+3+X]


[B]Fighter 3 (Level One, Strength 16, Dexterity 15, using two Short Swords)


Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus,

+ [Strength] + [Flanking] + [Weapon Focus] – [Two Weapon Fighting Penalty]

Primary Attack: 1+3+2+1–2 = +5
Primary Offhand Attack: 1+3+2+1–2 = +5

[Short Sword + Strength]
[Short Sword + Strength (x 0.5)]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D8+3+X]
Primary Offhand Damage: [1D6+1+X]


[B]Fighter 4 (Level One, Strength 16, Dexterity 15, using Long Sword and Short Sword)


Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack,

+ [Strength] + [Flanking] – [Two Weapon Fighting Penalty]

Primary Attack: 1+3+2+0–2 = +4
Primary Offhand Attack: 1+3+2+0–2 = +4

[Long Sword + Strength + Power Attack]
[Short Sword + Strength (x 0.5)]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D8+3]
Primary Offhand Damage: [1D6+1]


[B]Fighter 5 (Level One, Strength 16, Dexterity 15, using two Long Swords)


Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus,

+ [Strength] + [Flanking] + [Weapon Focus] – [Two Weapon Fighting Penalty]

Primary Attack: 1+3+2+1–4 = +3
Primary Offhand Attack: 1+3+2+1–4 = +3

[Long Sword + Strength]
[Long Sword + Strength (x 0.5)]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D8+3]
Primary Offhand Damage: [1D6+1]


[B]

AC 10


Rogue 1 65% (2D6, 7)
Rogue 2 55% (2D6, 7) / 55% (2D6, 7)
Fighter 1A 90% (2D6+4, 11)
Fighter 1B 85% (2D6+6, 13)
Fighter 2A 90% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Fighter 2B 85% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 3 80% (1D6+3, 6.5) / 80% (1D6+1, 4.5)
Fighter 4 75% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 75% (1D6+1, 4.5)
Fighter 5 70% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 70% (1D8+1, 5.5)

AC 15


Rogue 1 40% (2D6, 7)
Rogue 2 30% (2D6, 7) / 30% (2D6, 7)
Fighter 1A 65% (2D6+4, 11)
Fighter 1B 60% (2D6+6, 13)
Fighter 2A 65% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Fighter 2B 60% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 3 55% (1D6+3, 6.5) / 55% (1D6+1, 4.5)
Fighter 4 50% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 50% (1D6+1, 4.5)
Fighter 5 45% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 45% (1D8+1, 5.5)

AC 18


Rogue 1 25% (2D6, 7)
Rogue 2 15% (2D6, 7) / 15% (2D6, 7)
Fighter 1A 50% (2D6+4, 11)
Fighter 1B 45% (2D6+6, 13)
Fighter 2A 50% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Fighter 2B 45% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 3 40% (1D6+3, 6.5) / 40% (1D6+1, 4.5)
Fighter 4 35% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 35% (1D6+1, 4.5)
Fighter 5 30% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 30% (1D8+1, 5.5)

AC 20


Rogue 1 15% (2D6, 7)
Rogue 2 5% (2D6, 7) / 5% (2D6, 7)
Fighter 1A 40% (2D6+4, 11)
Fighter 1B 35% (2D6+6, 13)
Fighter 2A 40% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Fighter 2B 35% (1D8+4, 8.5)
Fighter 3 30% (1D6+3, 6.5) / 30% (1D6+1, 4.5)
Fighter 4 25% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 25% (1D6+1, 4.5)
Fighter 5 20% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 20% (1D8+1, 5.5)



Rogue 1[B] (Level Three, Dexterity 16, using one Short Sword)


Feats: Weapon Finesse

+ [Dexterity Bonus] + [Flanking]

Primary Attack: [2+3+2] = +7

[Short Sword + Sneak Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D6+2D6] = 3D6


Rogue 2 [B](Level Three, Dexterity 16, using two Short Swords)


Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse,

+ [Dexterity Bonus] + [Flanking] – [Two Weapon Fighting Penalty]

Primary Attack: 2+3+2–2 = +5
Primary Offhand Attack 2+3+2–2 = +5

[Short Sword + Sneak Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D6+2D6]
Primary Offhand Attack Damage: [1D6+2D6]


Fighter 1[B] (Level Three, Strength 16, using Great Sword)


Feats: Weapon Focus, Power Attack,

+ [Strength Bonus] + [Flanking] + [Weapon Focus Bonus]

Primary Attack: 3 + 3 + 2 + 1 = +9

[Great Sword + (Strength x 1.5) + Power Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [2D6+4+X]


Fighter 2[B] (Level Three, Strength 16, using Long Sword and Shield)


Feats: Weapon Focus, Power Attack,

+ [Strength Bonus] + [Flanking] + [Weapon Focus Bonus]

Primary Attack: 3+3+2+1 = +9

[Long Sword + Strength + Power Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D8+3+X]


Fighter 3[B] (Level Three, Strength 16, Dexterity 15, using Long Sword and Short Sword)


Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (2), Power Attack,

+ [Strength Bonus] + [Flanking] + [Weapon Focus Bonus] – [Two Weapon Fighting Penalty]

Primary Attack: 3+3+2+1–2 = +7
Primary Offhand Attack: 3+3+2+1–2 = +7

[Long Sword + Strength + Power Attack]
[Short Sword + Strength (x 0.5)]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D8+3+X]
Primary Offhand Damage: [1D6+1+X]




AC 10


Rogue 1 90% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 2 80% (3D6, 10.5) / 80% (3D6, 10.5)
Fighter 1A 100% (2D6+4, 11)
Fighter 1B 85% (2D6+10, 17)
Fighter 2A 100% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Fighter 2B 85% (1D8+6, 10.5)
Fighter 3A 90% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 90% (1D6+1, 4.5)
Fighter 3B 75% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 75% (1D6+1, 4.5)

AC 15


Rogue 1 65% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 2 55% (3D6, 10.5) / 55% (3D6, 10.5)
Fighter 1A 75% (2D6+4, 11)
Fighter 1B 60% (2D6+10, 17)
Fighter 2A 75% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Fighter 2B 60% (1D8+6, 10.5)
Fighter 3A 65% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 65% (1D6+1, 4.5)
Fighter 3B 50% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 50% (1D6+1, 4.5)

AC 18


Rogue 1 50% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 2 40% (3D6, 10.5) / 40% (3D6, 10.5)
Fighter 1A 60% (2D6+4, 11)
Fighter 1B 45% (2D6+10, 17)
Fighter 2A 60% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Fighter 2B 45% (1D8+6, 10.5)
Fighter 3A 50% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 50% (1D6+1, 4.5)
Fighter 3B 35% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 35% (1D6+1, 4.5)

AC 20


Rogue 1 40% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 2 30% (3D6, 10.5) / 30% (3D6, 10.5)
Fighter 1A 50% (2D6+4, 11)
Fighter 1B 35% (2D6+10, 17)
Fighter 2A 50% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Fighter 2B 35% (1D8+6, 10.5)
Fighter 3A 40% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 40% (1D6+1, 4.5)
Fighter 3B 25% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 25% (1D6+1, 4.5)

AC 21


Rogue 1 35% (3D6, 10.5)
Rogue 2 25% (3D6, 10.5) / 25% (3D6, 10.5)
Fighter 1A 45% (2D6+4, 11)
Fighter 1B 30% (2D6+10, 17)
Fighter 2A 45% (1D8+3, 7.5)
Fighter 2B 30% (1D8+6, 10.5)
Fighter 3A 35% (1D8+3, 7.5) / 35% (1D6+1, 4.5)
Fighter 3B 20% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 20% (1D6+1, 4.5)



Rogue 1[B] (Level Six, Dexterity 17, using one Short Sword)


Feats: Weapon Finesse

+ [Dexterity Bonus] + [Flanking]

Primary Attack: [4+3+2] = +9

[Short Sword + Sneak Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D6+3D6] = 4D6


Rogue 2[B] (Level Six, Dexterity 17, using two Short Swords)


Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Improved Two Weapon Fighting

+ [Dexterity Bonus] + [Flanking] – [Two Weapon Fighting Penalty]

Primary Attack: 4+3+2–2 = +7
Primary Offhand Attack 4+3+2–2 = +7

[Short Sword + Sneak Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D6+3D6] = 4D6
Primary Offhand Attack Damage: [1D6+3D6] = 4D6


Fighter 1[B] (Level Six, Strength 17, using Great Sword)


Feats: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Weapon Specialisation,

+ [Strength Bonus] + [Flanking] + [Weapon Focus Bonus]

Primary Attack: 6+3+2+1 = +12
Secondary Attack: 1+3+2+1 = +7

[Great Sword + (Strength x 1.5) + Specialisation + Power Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [2D6+4+2+X]
Secondary Attack Damage: [2D6+4+2+X]


Fighter 2[B] (Level Six, Strength 17, using Long Sword and Shield)


Feats: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Weapon Specialisation,

+ [Strength Bonus] + [Flanking] + [Weapon Focus Bonus]

Primary Attack: 6+3+2+1 = +12
Secondary Attack: 1+3+2+1 = +7

[Long Sword + Strength + Specialisation + Power Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D8+4+2+X]
Secondary Attack Damage: [1D8+4+2+X]


Fighter 3[B] (Level Six, Strength 17, Dexterity 17, using Long Sword and Short Sword)


Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (2), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Specialisation (2),

+ [Strength Bonus] + [Flanking] + [Weapon Focus Bonus] – [Two Weapon Fighting Penalty]

Primary Attack: 6+3+2+1–2 = +10
Primary Offhand Attack: 6+3+2+1–2 = +10
Secondary Attack: 1+3+2+1–2 = +5
Secondary Offhand Attack: 1+3+2+1–7 = +5

[Long Sword + Strength + Specialisation + Power Attack]
[Short Sword + Strength (x 0.5) + Specialisation]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D8+3+2+X]
Primary Offhand Damage: [1D6+1+2+X]
Secondary Attack Damage: [1D8+3+2+X]
Secondary Offhand Attack Damage: [1D6+1+2+X]




AC 10


Rogue 1 100% (4D6, 14)
Rogue 2 90% (4D6, 14) / 90% (4D6, 14)
Fighter 1A 115% (2D6+6, 13) / 90% (2D6+6, 13)
Fighter 1B 100% (2D6+14, 19) / 75% (2D6+14, 19)
Fighter 1C 85% (2D6+20, 25) / 60% (2D6+20, 25)
Fighter 2A 115% (1D8+6, 11) / 90% (1D8+6, 10)
Fighter 2B 100% (1D8+9, 14) / 75% (1D8+9, 13)
Fighter 2C 85% (1D8+12, 17) / 60% (1D8+12, 16)
Fighter 3A 105% (1D8+6, 11) / 105% (1D6+4, 7) / 80% (1D8+6, 10) / 80% (1D6+4, 8)
Fighter 3B 90% (1D8+9, 14) / 90% (1D6+4, 7) / 65% (1D8+9, 13) / 65% (1D6+4, 8)
Fighter 3C 75% (1D8+12, 16) / 75% (1D6+4, 7) / 50% (1D8+12, 15) / 50% (1D6+4, 8)

AC 20[B] (Fighter, Level Nine, Dexterity 11, Full Plate and Heavy Shield)


Rogue 1 70% (6D6, 21) / 45% (6D6, 21)
Rogue 2 60% (6D6, 21) / 60% (6D6, 21) / 35% (6D6, 21) / 35% (6D6, 21)
Fighter 1A 90% (2D6+08, 15) / 65% (2D6+8, 15)
Fighter 1B 75% (2D6+14, 21) / 50% (2D6+14, 21)
Fighter 1C 60% (2D6+20, 27) / 35% (2D6+20, 27)
Fighter 1D 45% (2D6+26, 33) / 20% (2D6+26, 33)
Fighter 2A 90% (1D8+6, 11) / 65% (1D8+6, 11)
Fighter 2B 75% (1D8+9, 14) / 50% (1D8+9, 14)
Fighter 2C 60% (1D8+12, 17) / 35% (1D8+12, 17)
Fighter 2D 45% (1D8+15, 20) / 20% (1D8+15, 20)
Fighter 3A 80% (1D8+6, 11) / 80% (1D6+4, 7) / 55% (1D8+6, 10) / 55% (1D6+4, 8)
Fighter 3B 65% (1D8+9, 14) / 65% (1D6+4, 7) / 40% (1D8+9, 13) / 40% (1D6+4, 8)
Fighter 3C 50% (1D8+12, 16) / 50% (1D6+4, 7) / 25% (1D8+12, 15) / 25% (1D6+4, 8)
Fighter 3D 35% (1D8+15, 17) / 35% (1D6+4, 7) / 10% (1D8+15, 16) / 10% (1D6+4, 8)

AC 22[B] (Average CR9 AC, as suggested by Core Dump)


Rogue 1 60% (6D6, 21) / 35% (6D6, 21)
Rogue 2 50% (6D6, 21) / 50% (6D6, 21) / 25% (6D6, 21) / 25% (6D6, 21)
Fighter 1A 80% (2D6+08, 15) / 55% (2D6+8, 15)
Fighter 1B 65% (2D6+14, 21) / 40% (2D6+14, 21)
Fighter 1C 50% (2D6+20, 27) / 25% (2D6+20, 27)
Fighter 1D 35% (2D6+26, 33) / 10% (2D6+26, 33)
Fighter 2A 80% (1D8+6, 11) / 55% (1D8+6, 11)
Fighter 2B 65% (1D8+9, 14) / 40% (1D8+9, 14)
Fighter 2C 50% (1D8+12, 17) / 25% (1D8+12, 17)
Fighter 2D 35% (1D8+15, 20) / 10% (1D8+15, 20)
Fighter 3A 70% (1D8+6, 11) / 70% (1D6+4, 7) / 45% (1D8+6, 10) / 45% (1D6+4, 8)
Fighter 3B 55% (1D8+9, 14) / 55% (1D6+4, 7) / 30% (1D8+9, 13) / 30% (1D6+4, 8)
Fighter 3C 40% (1D8+12, 16) / 40% (1D6+4, 7) / 15% (1D8+12, 15) / 15% (1D6+4, 8)
Fighter 3D 25% (1D8+15, 17) / 25% (1D6+4, 7) / 5% (1D8+15, 16) / 5% (1D6+4, 8)

AC 24 (AC of a Delvar)


Rogue 1 50% (6D6, 21) / 25% (6D6, 21)
Rogue 2 40% (6D6, 21) / 40% (6D6, 21) / 15% (6D6, 21) / 15% (6D6, 21)
Fighter 1A 70% (2D6+08, 15) / 45% (2D6+8, 15)
Fighter 1B 55% (2D6+14, 21) / 30% (2D6+14, 21)
Fighter 1C 40% (2D6+20, 27) / 15% (2D6+20, 27)
Fighter 1D 25% (2D6+26, 33) / 5% (2D6+26, 33)
Fighter 2A 70% (1D8+6, 11) / 45% (1D8+6, 11)
Fighter 2B 55% (1D8+9, 14) / 30% (1D8+9, 14)
Fighter 2C 40% (1D8+12, 17) / 15% (1D8+12, 17)
Fighter 2D 25% (1D8+15, 20) / 5% (1D8+15, 20)
Fighter 3A 60% (1D8+6, 11) / 60% (1D6+4, 7) / 35% (1D8+6, 10) / 35% (1D6+4, 8)
Fighter 3B 45% (1D8+9, 14) / 45% (1D6+4, 7) / 20% (1D8+9, 13) / 20% (1D6+4, 8)
Fighter 3C 30% (1D8+12, 16) / 30% (1D6+4, 7) / 5% (1D8+12, 15) / 5% (1D6+4, 8)
Fighter 3D 15% (1D8+15, 17) / 15% (1D6+4, 7) / 5% (1D8+15, 16) / 5% (1D6+4, 8)

AC 25 (AC of Dragon Turtle or Stone Giant)


Rogue 1 45% (6D6, 21) / 20% (6D6, 21)
Rogue 2 35% (6D6, 21) / 35% (6D6, 21) / 10% (6D6, 21) / 10% (6D6, 21)
Fighter 1A 65% (2D6+08, 15) / 40% (2D6+8, 15)
Fighter 1B 50% (2D6+14, 21) / 25% (2D6+14, 21)
Fighter 1C 35% (2D6+20, 27) / 10% (2D6+20, 27)
Fighter 1D 20% (2D6+26, 33) / 5% (2D6+26, 33)
Fighter 2A 65% (1D8+6, 11) / 40% (1D8+6, 11)
Fighter 2B 50% (1D8+9, 14) / 25% (1D8+9, 14)
Fighter 2C 35% (1D8+12, 17) / 10% (1D8+12, 17)
Fighter 2D 20% (1D8+15, 20) / 5% (1D8+15, 20)
Fighter 3A 55% (1D8+6, 11) / 55% (1D6+4, 7) / 30% (1D8+6, 10) / 30% (1D6+4, 8)
Fighter 3B 40% (1D8+9, 14) / 40% (1D6+4, 7) / 15% (1D8+9, 13) / 15% (1D6+4, 8)
Fighter 3C 25% (1D8+12, 16) / 25% (1D6+4, 7) / 5% (1D8+12, 15) / 5% (1D6+4, 8)
Fighter 3D 10% (1D8+15, 17) / 10% (1D6+4, 7) / 5% (1D8+15, 16) / 5% (1D6+4, 8)



Rogue 1 (Level Nine, Dexterity 18, using one Short Sword)


Feats: Weapon Finesse

+ [Dexterity Bonus] + [Flanking]

Primary Attack: [6+4+2] = +12
Secondary Attack: [1+4+2] = +7

[Short Sword + Sneak Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D6+5D6] = 6D6
Secondary Attack Damage: [1D6+5D6] = 6D6


Rogue 2[B] (Level Nine, Dexterity 18, using two Short Swords)


Feats: Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting

+ [Dexterity Bonus] + [Flanking] – [Two Weapon Fighting Penalty]

Primary Attack: 6+4+2–2 = +10
Primary Offhand Attack 6+4+2–2 = +10
Secondary Attack +1+4+2–2 = +5
Secondary Offhand Attack +6+4+2–7 = +5

[Short Sword + Sneak Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D6+5D6]
Primary Offhand Attack Damage: [1D6+5D6]
Secondary Attack Damage: [1D6+5D6]
Secondary Offhand Attack Damage: [1D6+5D6]


Fighter 1[B] (Level Nine, Strength 18, using Great Sword)


Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Greater Weapon Focus, Power Attack

+ [Strength Bonus] + [Flanking] + [Weapon Focus Bonus]

Primary Attack: 9+4+2+2 = +17
Secondary Attack: 4+4+2+2 = +12

[Great Sword + (Strength x 1.5) + Specialisation + Power Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [2D6+6+2+X]
Secondary Attack Damage: [2D6+6+2+X]


Fighter 2[B] (Level Six, Strength 18, using Long Sword and Shield)


Feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Greater Weapon Focus, Power Attack

+ [Strength Bonus] + [Flanking] + [Weapon Focus Bonus]

Primary Attack: 9+4+2+2 = +17
Secondary Attack: 4+4+2+2 = +12

[Long Sword + Strength + Specialisation + Power Attack]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D8+4+2+X]
Secondary Attack Damage: [1D8+4+2+X]


Fighter 3[B] (Level Nine, Strength 18, Dexterity 17, using Long Sword and Short Sword)


Feats: Weapon Focus (2), Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Weapon Specialisation (2), Greater Weapon Focus (2),

+ [Strength Bonus] + [Flanking] + [Weapon Focus Bonus] – [Two Weapon Fighting Penalty]

Primary Attack: 9+4+2+2–2 = +15
Primary Offhand Attack: 9+4+2+2–2 = +15
Secondary Attack: 4+4+2+2–2 = +10
Secondary Offhand Attack: 9+4+2+2–7 = +10

[Long Sword + Strength + Specialisation + Power Attack]
[Short Sword + Strength (x 0.5) + Specialisation]

Primary Attack Damage: [1D8+4+2+X]
Primary Offhand Damage: [1D6+2+2+X]
Secondary Attack Damage: [1D8+4+2+X]
Secondary Offhand Attack Damage: [1D6+2+2+X]


Note:


I haven’t had any of the Fighters take Bastard Sword or Dwarven War Axe as their Primary Weapon for several reasons. None of them really matter too much, though, except that the Fighter 3 build uses so many Feats that only the Human and Dwarf variants would be able to employ them [The Human because he gets a Bonus Feat and the Dwarf because he is already assumed to have the Dwarven War Axe Exotic Weapon Proficiency]. The Average Damage of the Long Sword would be increased by 1 in each case; I don’t think it would make too much difference anyway.



AC 10


Rogue 1 120% (6D6, 21) / 95% (6D6, 21)
Rogue 2 110% (6D6, 21) / 110% (6D6, 21) / 85% (6D6, 21) / 85% (6D6, 21)
Fighter 1A 140% (2D6+8, 15) / 115% (2D6+8, 15)
Fighter 1B 125% (2D6+14, 21) / 100% (2D6+14, 21)
Fighter 1C 110% (2D6+20, 27) / 85% (2D6+20, 27)
Fighter 1D 95% (2D6+26, 33) / 70% (2D6+26, 33)
Fighter 2A 140% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 115% (1D8+6, 10.5)
Fighter 2B 125% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 100% (1D8+9, 13.5)
Fighter 2C 110% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 85% (1D8+12, 16.5)
Fighter 2D 95% (1D8+15, 19.5) / 70% (1D8+15, 19.5)
Fighter 3A 130% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 130% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 105% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 105% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3B 115% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 115% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 90% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 90% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3C 100% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 100% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 75% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 75% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3D 85% (1D8+15, 19.5) / 85% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 60% (1D8+15, 19.5) / 60% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 4 120% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 120% (1D8+4, 8.5)


AC 20[B] (Fighter, Level Nine, Dexterity 11, Full Plate and Heavy Shield)


Rogue 1 70% (6D6, 21) / 45% (6D6, 21)
Rogue 2 60% (6D6, 21) / 60% (6D6, 21) / 35% (6D6, 21) / 35% (6D6, 21)
Fighter 1A 90% (2D6+08, 15) / 65% (2D6+8, 15)
Fighter 1B 75% (2D6+14, 21) / 50% (2D6+14, 21)
Fighter 1C 60% (2D6+20, 27) / 35% (2D6+20, 27)
Fighter 1D 45% (2D6+26, 33) / 20% (2D6+26, 33)
Fighter 2A 90% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 65% (1D8+6, 10.5)
Fighter 2B 75% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 50% (1D8+9, 13.5)
Fighter 2C 60% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 35% (1D8+12, 16.5)
Fighter 2D 45% (1D8+15, 19.5) / 20% (1D8+15, 19.5)
Fighter 3A 80% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 80% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 55% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 55% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3B 65% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 65% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 40% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 40% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3C 50% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 50% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 25% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 25% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3D 35% (1D8+15, 19.5) / 35% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 10% (1D8+15, 19.5) / 10% (1D6+4, 7.5)

AC 22 (Average CR9 AC, as suggested by Core Dump)


Rogue 1 60% (6D6, 21) / 35% (6D6, 21)
Rogue 2 50% (6D6, 21) / 50% (6D6, 21) / 25% (6D6, 21) / 25% (6D6, 21)
Fighter 1A 80% (2D6+08, 15) / 55% (2D6+8, 15)
Fighter 1B 65% (2D6+14, 21) / 40% (2D6+14, 21)
Fighter 1C 50% (2D6+20, 27) / 25% (2D6+20, 27)
Fighter 1D 35% (2D6+26, 33) / 10% (2D6+26, 33)
Fighter 2A 80% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 55% (1D8+6, 10.5)
Fighter 2B 65% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 40% (1D8+9, 13.5)
Fighter 2C 50% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 25% (1D8+12, 16.5)
Fighter 2D 35% (1D8+15, 19.5) / 10% (1D8+15, 19.5)
Fighter 3A 70% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 70% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 45% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 45% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3B 55% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 55% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 30% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 30% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3C 40% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 40% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 15% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 15% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3D 25% (1D8+15, 16.5) / 25% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 5% (1D8+15, 16.5) / 5% (1D6+4, 7.5)

AC 24 (AC of a Delvar)


Rogue 1 50% (6D6, 21) / 25% (6D6, 21)
Rogue 2 40% (6D6, 21) / 40% (6D6, 21) / 15% (6D6, 21) / 15% (6D6, 21)
Fighter 1A 70% (2D6+08, 15) / 45% (2D6+8, 15)
Fighter 1B 55% (2D6+14, 21) / 30% (2D6+14, 21)
Fighter 1C 40% (2D6+20, 27) / 15% (2D6+20, 27)
Fighter 1D 25% (2D6+26, 33) / 5% (2D6+26, 33)
Fighter 2A 70% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 45% (1D8+6, 10.5)
Fighter 2B 55% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 30% (1D8+9, 13.5)
Fighter 2C 40% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 15% (1D8+12, 16.5)
Fighter 2D 25% (1D8+15, 19.5) / 5% (1D8+15, 19.5)
Fighter 3A 60% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 60% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 35% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 35% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3B 45% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 45% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 20% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 20% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3C 30% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 30% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 5% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 5% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3D 15% (1D8+15, 19.5) / 15% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 5% (1D8+15, 19.5) / 5% (1D6+4, 7.5)

AC 25 (AC of Dragon Turtle or Stone Giant)


Rogue 1 45% (6D6, 21) / 20% (6D6, 21)
Rogue 2 35% (6D6, 21) / 35% (6D6, 21) / 10% (6D6, 21) / 10% (6D6, 21)
Fighter 1A 65% (2D6+08, 15) / 40% (2D6+8, 15)
Fighter 1B 50% (2D6+14, 21) / 25% (2D6+14, 21)
Fighter 1C 35% (2D6+20, 27) / 10% (2D6+20, 27)
Fighter 1D 20% (2D6+26, 33) / 5% (2D6+26, 33)
Fighter 2A 65% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 40% (1D8+6, 10.5)
Fighter 2B 50% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 25% (1D8+9, 13.5)
Fighter 2C 35% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 10% (1D8+12, 16.5)
Fighter 2D 20% (1D8+15, 19.5) / 5% (1D8+15, 19.5)
Fighter 3A 55% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 55% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 30% (1D8+6, 10.5) / 30% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3B 40% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 40% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 15% (1D8+9, 13.5) / 15% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3C 25% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 25% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 5% (1D8+12, 16.5) / 5% (1D6+4, 7.5)
Fighter 3D 10% (1D8+15, 19.5) / 10% (1D6+4, 7.5) / 5% (1D8+15, 19.5) / 5% (1D6+4, 7.5)

[Roderick_BR]

Not quite what happens as far as I can tell. Two Weapon Pounce lets you make two Attacks, one with each weapon, at the end of a Charge. You need BAB 6 to get it. It isn't bad, though.

Two Weapon Rend grants 1D6 + [1.5 Strength Bonus] additional Damage if you hit with both weapons, as part of the Off Hand Attack. It's not clear to me whether this happens each time you hit with both weapons or what.


Basically, it sucks because you have to hit multiple times to get the same sort of Damage as from Two Handed Fighting and require a ton of Feats to do it. Factor in Power Attack and things rapidly go south. You also have to rely on Multiple Ability Scores [i.e. Strength and Dexterity], the latter of which has to be maddeningly high to compete.
Ah, good points. The required high stats can be a bitch. And I think those Power Attack rules are a bit overpowered, but oh, well...

Still, if well built, you can get some killer character.

Yeah, better leave it for the Ranger really.

[squishycube]

I could post lots of crunch, but I suppose I can rely on you to find those statistics yourselves. Read Mathew's post
It has been said already, but I'll repeat for truth:
TWF is good if, and only if, you have something that is added to each hit, or each critical, like the rogue or the swashbuckler
Otherwise, twohanded fighting is averagly better.

[Pegasos989]

So, Two Weapon Fighting pretty much sucks in comparison to Two Handed Fighting as we all know and loudly proclaim when somebody says otherwise.

In an effort to make it a more viable choice, how would making Two Weapon Fighting a Standard Action affect the game? Are there already ways to do so? What about combining it with getting 1 x Strength Bonus to Damage with Off Hand Attacks?

Just occurred to me because of the common misconception that Two Weapon Fighting works with Spring Attack, what if it did?

Allow light weapons to power attack too, 1:1 ratio (the flavour is that you lessen your chances to hit for more damage - it might very well be just trying to go for the eyes or something similar). Also, allow every normal attack action (charge, standard attack, etc.) go with both weapons once. 1x strenght bonus on both of attacks.

These don't really make it better for rogues and the like (aside from the attack action thingy. Still, TWF without full attack...) but help the normal TWFers.

Then possibly fighter feats (Come on, we all know already that due to feat requirements, TWF is viable only for fighters and rangers if you want to have feats left, so we might just as well make it require more) to add 1.5x str damage and to treat two strikes as one for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.

[Valairn]

Sneak attack works with twohanded weapons right?

[Beleriphon]

Ah, good points. The required high stats can be a bitch. And I think those Power Attack rules are a bit overpowered, but oh, well...

Still, if well built, you can get some killer character.

Yeah, better leave it for the Ranger really.

Which is actually what I did. Thus I get the whole shabang for two feats since I don't intend on wearing anything more than light armour anyways.,

[Lord Iames Osari]

So, Two Weapon Fighting pretty much sucks in comparison to Two Handed Fighting as we all know and loudly proclaim when somebody says otherwise.

In an effort to make it a more viable choice, how would making Two Weapon Fighting a Standard Action affect the game? Are there already ways to do so? What about combining it with getting 1 x Strength Bonus to Damage with Off Hand Attacks?

Just occurred to me because of the common misconception that Two Weapon Fighting works with Spring Attack, what if it did?

Well, it requires more feats, but I homebrewed up some feats that make TWF fighting more viable. The link is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10489#25).

[Beleriphon]

Sneak attack works with twohanded weapons right?

Sure does. Its just extra damage that applies from certain situations. I take it that you're thinking Half-orc rogue with a greatsword. Nice concept for a thugish rogue. :smallbiggrin:

[blue chicken]

So........I sort of feel like I'm about to sound really stupid because I've missed a critical rule somewhere...but what's wrong with Improved Shield bash, a heavy spiked shield in the primary hand, and a light spiked shield in the off-hand?

OR...

Two heavy spiked shields, improved shield bash, and spiked armor? IT counts as an off-hand weapon...

So it seems to me that you could generate a VERY well-protected build going on with two-weapon fighting and two-weapon defense. Plus you've got all those slots to add defensive enhancements to. And taking into account the fact that the spikes THEMSELVES represent ANOTHER slot...you can enchant the shields and armor to give you defensive bonuses while enchanting the spikes to do magical damage (or, heck, if you're REALLY into your AC love affair you could make them Defending weapons.)

...^is that all bunk? Seems viable to me, especially once you get Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization: Shield Spikes.

[Thomas]

So........I sort of feel like I'm about to sound really stupid because I've missed a critical rule somewhere...but what's wrong with Improved Shield bash, a heavy spiked shield in the primary hand, and a light spiked shield in the off-hand?

The fact that shield bonuses don't stack. If you had both a +3 light shield and a +2 heavy shield, you'd only get +4 to AC.

[blue chicken]

Well dang. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Though...that just eliminates the need for a second shield at all. Defend with a Heavy Mithril Shield and attack with a proper weapon and your armor spikes.

Or...is that not viable either?

[Matthew]

Perfectly viable, but after around Level four or five the trade off for Armour Class begins to pale in comparison to the Damage Potential of a Two Handed Weapon (which can also use Armour Spikes to make an Off Hand Attack).

[clarkvalentine]

I love playing TWFs, swashbucklers (as an archetype, rather than the class), duelists, the Inigo Montoya type of fighter. Not nearly as much damage per round, but fun as hell. It's not worth skewering the bad guys unless you can do it with style. :smallwink:

But I've never been an optimizer at heart. And sometimes I like the tank who just takes your head off at the shoulders with a greataxe.

[blue chicken]

Hm. I guess I've just never played a lot of characters who use two-handed weapons. The gross damage potential is higher, true. It just usually doesn't fit my character concept.

EDIT: Also, I'm typically a patient fighter. As long as the bad guy can't hit me, he'll go down eventually. Assuming he doesn't have a maximized empowered fireball up his sleeve. I hate it when that happens.

...interesting thought, though. Now I'm tempted to go roll up a half-orc paragon fighter who uses some sort of enormous enchanted weapon AND some sort of wickedly enchanted armor spikes.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I had a DM houserule me some crazy TWF rules for a gestalt game where I was a fighter/rogue. For instance, I could use quick draw and TWF to throw both hands' worth of light weapons (daggers, specifically) so long as I had enough of them in my stash. I also took a jumbo special prestige class that eventually netted me a two-weapon spring attack, annihilated all deficiencies due to dual-wielding, granted a +2 attack bonus when dual-wielding two of the same light weapons, and a two-weapon sneak attack (I was half rogue prior to this and still picked up two additional sneak attack ranks in the prestige class) that basically let me use the damage from both weapons in addition to the d6's.

This also built upon a previous houseruled armor I was wearing. Every 5 daggers I put into a special suit I was wearing granted me +1 AC (I was wearing them around vital areas as a sort of multipurpose armor) at the cost of having to make a survival check (cross-class for my build) every time I was dealt a critical hit or botched an attempted tumble to prevent cutting myself on one and bleeding. The AC limit was a +6 without enchantments, and every additional point of AC made the survival check that much harder.

Part of the deal for me getting this delicious class and armor was forsaking the use of any weapons outside of daggers except in extreme circumstances where I can't use them anyway. I started carrying around a lot of daggers with different magical bypassing enchantments to circumvent the DR of bigger baddies. And it was always amusing to need to pick up every dagger I found/dropped during and after a fight to replenish my AC (plus several that I stole, being a dirty thief). I had quite the collection.

[Thomas]

I had a DM houserule me some crazy TWF rules for a gestalt game where I was a fighter/rogue. For instance, I could use quick draw and TWF to throw both hands' worth of light weapons (daggers, specifically) so long as I had enough of them in my stash.

That's not a house rule. If you have Quick Draw, you can throw as many thrown weapons per round as you have attacks and weapons. And you can use TWF with thrown weapons.

[MaN]

Just occurred to me because of the common misconception that Two Weapon Fighting works with Spring Attack, what if it did?
Apparently I'm one of those commonly misconceiving people who read the rules as saying TWF does work with Spring Attack.

* Spring Attack works when using the attack action with a melee weapon.
* TWF gives you one extra attack per round when wielding a second weapon in your off hand.
* You may use TWF either as part of a full-attack action or as part of an attack action.
* PHB errata doesn't address this.
* D&D FAQ (which is unofficial non-rules) only addresses making multiple attacks during a Spring Attack without the benefit of TWF.
* D&D FAQ (which is unofficial non-rules) states that you may only use a single attack action (see third bullet point) while using Spring Attack.

Where is the misconception? Is the Spring Attack/TWF trick made illegal in a non-core book?

[Bears With Lasers]

You may only use TWF as part of a full attack action. Not during an attack action.

[MaN]

You may only use TWF as part of a full attack action. Not during an attack action.
Says who? What is your source?


TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.
Normal:If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
Special: A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.


TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

There is nothing mentioned about needing to make a full-attack to benefit from TWF.

[NEO|Phyte]

Says who? What is your source?

There is nothing mentioned about needing to make a full-attack to benefit from TWF.


Full Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack)
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
the actions in combat section of the SRD/PHB.

[The_Snark]

On the subject of fighting with a shield: Is it possible to use a heavy shield in two hands? It is a one-handed weapon, so wielded in two hands you get the double Power Attack ratio. Get one feat (Improved Shield Bash) and you get the +2 AC bonus, in addition to any enchantments you place on it.

I can't actually remember where it states that you only get the extra attack from fighting with two weapons while full attacking, but the existence of feats like Dual Strike and Two-Weapon Pounce certainly indicate that that is the case.

[Matthew]

Multiple Attacks

A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) action in order to get more than one attack.

Multiple Attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#actionTypes)

Sorry, MaN, you have been playing it wrong, as they say (if you play by the RAW, that is). That's why it's a common misconception.


On the subject of fighting with a shield: Is it possible to use a heavy shield in two hands? It is a one-handed weapon, so wielded in two hands you get the double Power Attack ratio. Get one feat (Improved Shield Bash) and you get the +2 AC bonus, in addition to any enchantments you place on it.

Yes, it is entirely possible (Hell, you better do it if your Weapon and Shield Fighter ever gets disarmed!) and a generally better option than fighting with Two Shields. You can even go Two Weapon Fighting with a Heavy Shield and Armour Spikes. About the time it is possible to animate a Shield, though, you will probably want to change styles.

[Pegasos989]

On the subject of fighting with a shield: Is it possible to use a heavy shield in two hands? It is a one-handed weapon, so wielded in two hands you get the double Power Attack ratio. Get one feat (Improved Shield Bash) and you get the +2 AC bonus, in addition to any enchantments you place on it.

I can't actually remember where it states that you only get the extra attack from fighting with two weapons while full attacking, but the existence of feats like Dual Strike and Two-Weapon Pounce certainly indicate that that is the case.

It is stated on phb, around page 160 I think. Anyways, improved and greater two weapon fighting feats add more off-hand attacks.

And yes, you can wield shield in two hands.

[MaN]

Sorry, MaN, you have been playing it wrong:
GAH!!!! Damn you WOTC for not putting all the rules for using a feat in the "Feats" section of the book which is where you say all the rules for using feats are described! Damn you WOTC for not putting all the rules for fighting with two weapons in the "Two-Weapon Fighting" section of the book!

GAAAHHHH!!! AHHHHHHHH!!!
*pop*
*splatter*

Thanks for the correction guys. I'd better go now. I have to look up lightning bolt in the "Using Magic" section now to see if I've been doing that one wrong too. I have been erroneously going by the detailed spell description up until now. When will I ever learn?

[krossbow]

Heres what I do in my campaigns:

A.

bastard swords and dwarven war axes now d12s.

B. requires one feat.

C. Double weapons work like in KOTOR, not normal D&D. The off hand of a double weapon is NOT balanced anymore; you'll accumulate all the penalties of using a regular weapon unless you take oversized two weapon fighting (complete warrior). HOWEVER, the main hand attack of a double weapon deals 1.5 strength damage and the offhand deals .5. This makes it FINALLY viable for power characters, though it takes a lot of feats to make it awsome (TWF, exotic weapon prof., Oversized TWF).

D. Ambidextry feat: Lowers the TWF penalty down to 0/0 with a balanced weapon (or oversized two weapon fighting). I hated that you had to take the tempest class to get this.

E: you can TWF as a standard action.

F. Rennaisaunce powder pistols. Self explanatory.

[Matthew]

I can sympathise, MaN. Many is the time I have discovered I have been playing D&D wrong...

Krossbow:

Interesting rules. Why are the double weapons 1.5 and 0.5, though? Would it not make more sense for them to be both 1.0? I'm not a big fan of letting TWF Penalties drop below -2 / -2, even with via the Tempest Prestige Class.

Pistols? I bet that needs a whole thread to itself...

[clarkvalentine]

I can sympathise, MaN. Many is the time I have discovered I have been playing D&D wrong...

It seems TWF inspires that. For years I played that you could wield a spiked chain as a double weapon without reach, or a single weapon with reach. It was truly embarrassing to learn that was wrong.

[The_Snark]

It seems TWF inspires that. For years I played that you could wield a spiked chain as a double weapon without reach, or a single weapon with reach. It was truly embarrassing to learn that was wrong.

You're not that far off. There is a weapon that does that, and it is some sort of chain. It just isn't the spiked chain.

[krossbow]

Well, it's the idea that you're basically swinging a two handed weapon, and then making a quick jab with the bottom half of it. The second attack is probably going to be weaker, as the first one will probably carry the main force.

[Matthew]

Interesting. That may actually already be kind of vaguely supported. As you can make an Attack with a Two Handed Weapon, followed by an Off Hand Attack.

I would still go with 1.0 / 1.0 as default, though.

[Thomas]

GAH!!!! Damn you WOTC for not putting all the rules for using a feat in the "Feats" section of the book which is where you say all the rules for using feats are described! Damn you WOTC for not putting all the rules for fighting with two weapons in the "Two-Weapon Fighting" section of the book!

The feat doesn't change how multiple attacks work. It's obvious that the rules on multiple attacks come first, and a specific feat that gives you multiple attacks is a subset of those rules, abiding by them except where it's explicitly described to differ.

[Kantolin]

Curious: As you hold a double weapon in both hands, can't you power attack with the end that you're not explicitly using as a light weapon?

On that note, do you apply Str * 1.5 to the 'not off-hand' swing with it?

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Wait, so I've been screwed over all this time? And I've equally been screwing over my PC's?

...well, it balances out. At least I know now :D

[Matthew]

Well, basically, you can Power attack with a Double Weapon as a Two Handed Weapon, getting 1.5 Strength Bonus and trading -1 AB for +2 Damage and so on. However, if you use Two Weapon Fighting in combination you are pretty much restricted to Armour Spikes or an Unarmed Strike, which get 0.5 Strength Bonus to Damage and no Power Attack Bonus. That is an alternative to using the Double Weapon as the Primary and Off Hand Weapon.

However, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to House Rule it so that you can use the Off Hand part of a Double Weapon in this way, but it would be a House Rule and they would never bother using a Double Weapon normally again - unless you House Ruled it so that they otherwise did 1.0 / 1.0 Strength Bonus.

[Kantolin]

What I meant was, if you have both power attack, a double weapon, and two-weapon fighting, can't you power attack with the primary attack (as you are holding it in two hands)?

I know you cannot power attack with the off-hand swing of the weapon, as it's 'treated like a light weapon'. But...

[Matthew]

Yeah, of course, but you only get 1.0 Strength Bonus and a 1 to 1 Attack Bonus and Damage Exchange Rate with the Primary Attack, if you use the Off Hand Attack as part of the Two Weapon Fighting attack Routine.

Apparently, though, you can kick a guy in the nuts and then Double Handed Power Attack him with your Double Weapon as a Two Weapon Fighting Attack Routine.

[Bears With Lasers]

Yep. Greatsword + Spiked Gauntlets, Armor Spikes, or Imp. Unarmed Strike = better TWF than double weapons.

[Thomas]

Yep. Greatsword + Spiked Gauntlets, Armor Spikes, or Imp. Unarmed Strike = better TWF than double weapons.

And it makes sense, too. Real longsword (called a bastard sword in D&D, and actually a two-handed weapon) fighting involved grappling, hitting, elbowing, etc. TWFing with a greatsword and unarmed strike or a gauntlet sounds like a decent way to RP it.

[Matthew]

I saw Aragorn do it! (in the movie)

I thought to myself later: "Hmmn D&D should have a mechanic for that...", but it already did, I just hadn't read the FAQ.

[MaN]

The feat doesn't change how multiple attacks work. It's obvious that the rules on multiple attacks come first, and a specific feat that gives you multiple attacks is a subset of those rules, abiding by them except where it's explicitly described to differ.
This is true, however, when you need to refer to your book to see how the feat "Two-Weapon Fighting" works it is common sense to look up the actual feat named "Two-Weapon Fighting". If you want to refer to your book to read the rules on how to fight with two weapons you look in the index for an entry titled "Two-Weapon Fighting" not the general title of "Combat".

[Spasticteapot]

My take on it?

1. Half-orc Monk/Barbarian, with the one level of monk for the feats and abilities. (I actually wrote a backstory for him.)

2. Vow of Poverty. (Also part of the backstory - after staying alive by ripping seals apart with his bare hands for a year, he feels no need for posessions. Also, the whole "does'nt need to breathe air and is immune to natural cold" thing fits with the theme.)

3. Loco-high strength. (17 base, 19 after half-orc, 20 at 3rd level, 22 from VoP, 26 while raging).

4. TWF and Touch of Golden Ice.

The end result?

Three attacks, each at +5 (+7 while raging) at 3rd level, each with a damage of 1d6+6 (+8 while raging) + 1-4 points of strength damage. And that's without Power Attack.

That's an average of 25.5 points of damage per round, or 31.5 points of damage per round while raging, assuming all four attacks hit (and with his attack bonus, that's not unlikely.)

Add Frostrager and Improved TWP for even more munchy goodness!

[Thomas]

4. TWF and Touch of Golden Ice.

That's the key. If you can deal ability damage with your attacks (say, two wounding weapons), TWF is good.

Of course, the DC for golden ice sucks, doesn't it? Useless at high levels.

[Spasticteapot]

That's the key. If you can deal ability damage with your attacks (say, two wounding weapons), TWF is good.

Of course, the DC for golden ice sucks, doesn't it? Useless at high levels.

Ah, but that's the whole point of the Frostrager. Who cares if I do any strength damage when I'm making five ridiculously powerful attacks a round? As an added bonus, the PrC makes my AC go up by four while raging - which stacks with the bonus from VoP and my +3 from wisdom. I'm also pretty sure that there's some fun two-weapon feats like Two-Weapon Rend that will make me even scarier.

I also figure I can play up the whole immune-to-any-natural-circumstance thing up a bit. For example, immunity it frostbite is really, really handy.

Plus, I'm pretty sure that some of the Monk feats in the Complete Divine could'nt hurt.

[AtomicKitKat]

Don't forget Snap Kick(Same as One-Two Punch) and Roundabout Kick(I think that's the one. That or Roundhouse or Circle. Attack again at the same bonus as the hit that scored a critical.)

What I'd do for TWF. Remove the need for a Feat "Tree". You take one Feat, and whenever your Dexterity and Bab hit a certain value, get another Offhand attack.

[sun_tzu]

My current character is a fighter who specializes in two-weapon fighting. Using material from the Complete Adventurer really helps - for instance, a feat that allows me to use a longsword in each hand and only get a -2 to attack bonuses (so I only need Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for the longsword), and the Steel Tempest prestige class, which was basically made for two-weapon fighting.

[Pegasos989]

My current character is a fighter who specializes in two-weapon fighting. Using material from the Complete Adventurer really helps - for instance, a feat that allows me to use a longsword in each hand and only get a -2 to attack bonuses (so I only need Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for the longsword), and the Steel Tempest prestige class, which was basically made for two-weapon fighting.

Oversized two weapon fighting is quite bad feat really. You could get the same effect by using a double weapon or two light weapons (okay, you get 1d8s instead of 1d6s if you use longswords instead of shortswords. One point of diffrence in damage for a feat is not worht it). The best use for the feat is to be able to power attack with each weapon and most PA increasing feats (leap attack, shock trooper, etc.) work on charges, which won't let you attack with two weapons... (okay, two weapon pounce or whatever the feat in phb 2 helps)

[Thomas]

Oversized two weapon fighting is quite bad feat really.

It's pretty cool if you go for Weapon Supremacy, though...

And yeah, there's the whole "PA with two weapons" thing (although a two-handed weapon is still better, unless you can get some other source of damage).

[amanodel]

I feel myself summoned to this thread, for being someone who plays TWF a lot. TWF bad. Hits weak, and less often, and you use up half of your feats to do so. Requires high dex, which means you have to dump other stat. Alternate damage sources (sneak attacks, elemental damage, favored enemy, weapon spec.) help it a bit.

The most viable way is to select two similar weapons and go for specialisations. Altough with two light weapons you can't PA, and with two one-handed weapon you have to burn another feat (oversized TWF).

That means you can't benefit from the combat expertsie branch, or any other feat-heavy builds. Which is bad.

High-dex fighter/rogues with dual daggers can be built relatively well, or dual-rapier guys with finesse and some alternate damage source.

The main-gauche stlye doesn't let you to specialize, it's plainly bad. Your off-hand attack will deal no damage at all.

A possible solution would be making the three TWF base feats into one, making oversized TWF core. A feat that adds DEX to damage instead of STR would be helpful, too. The lack (or weakness) of PA hurts the most damage-wise, you need either oversized TWF to PA with your off-hand, or get enough bonus damage source.

The other thing is that TWF only works even that badly when you full-attack, making your usually low-armored high-dex warrior rooted to the ground. Allowing a bonus attack with off-hand as a part of the standard action would make up for it somewhat. As the current rules go, even fighter/rogues can't benefit from the additional sneak attacks, since you can't use your off-hand in the surprise round, which makes you totally depending on flanking, which either roots you more deeper, or forces you to take the mobility feat brach, which hurts badly when you already sacraficed 80% of your feats for the most basic TWF feats.

TWF would look awesome with feinting, tough. Pity you don't have enough feats no to work with. Or the rules. Even with Imp. Feint it is a move action, so you can't make a full attack, just a single one. Change that one so TWF-er can feint in place of one of his attacks, and then he get a round of sneak-attacking and/or bringing his bouns damage sources.


...5 Attacks? Say What?)
Drizz't has 6 attacks in 3.0. 17/12/7/2 With Icingdeath and 16/11 with twinkle. In 3.0 there's no such feat as greater TWF.

[Matthew]

Drizz't has 6 attacks in 3.0. 17/12/7/2 With Icingdeath and 16/11 with twinkle. In 3.0 there's no such feat as greater TWF.

Yeah, but in 2.x he appears to have been an illegal Character by being listed with five attacks.

2.x
Warrior 1-6: 1 Attack every Round
Warrior 7-12: 3 Attacks every Two Rounds
Warrior 13+: 2 Attacks every Round.

Off Hand Atacks only ever added one Attack in 2.x, which makes for a total of three; even if Drizzt was specialised in the Scimitar (which he could not be unless using Skills & Powers) that would have only increased his Primary Attack to 5 every Two Rounds, making for 5/2 and 1 or 7/2. For some reason he is listed as 3 and 2. He also gets Specialisation Damage in the same listing without actually being listed as having gained the ability or through what method.

[squishycube]

What I meant was, if you have both power attack, a double weapon, and two-weapon fighting, can't you power attack with the primary attack (as you are holding it in two hands)?

I know you cannot power attack with the off-hand swing of the weapon, as it's 'treated like a light weapon'. But...

Well actually that is not entirely correct, one end of a double weapon is only considered a light weapon for some purposes:
d20SRD - Double Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#doubleWeapons)

A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
That bit only says that you incur penalties as if fighting with a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
If you decide to attack with just one end of the double weapon, you can pick either end and get 1.5 times your strength mod to damage (if you keep the weapon in two hands, obviously).

However, the description of power attack contradicts this:
d20SRD - Power Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack)

Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.
The errata tell you what to do when two books contradict, but not when rules within one book contradict. I'd say that the description of the Power Attack feat is primary source for information on Power Attack (...), the author most likely just wanted to make clear that power attack can be used with double weapons, but that you don't get the bonus damage on the off-hand-end.

I'd very simply rule it this way: When using a double weapon and two weapon fighting at the same time, one end of the double weapon is considered a light weapon for all purposes. What end that is, is up to the wielder, as you can freely designate what hand is your off-hand any time you want.

[Were-Sandwich]

I had a (pretty useless) thoguht for a TWF rogue with too many feats: Two Weapon Pounce+Staggering Strike. Rogue gets surprise, charges, gets two attacks (with SA), dumping 2d6 of whichever hits to make the enemy Staggered. Whilst staggered, you can't full attack, enabling the rogue to survive until the Fighter gets into a flanking position, where he rips up the enemy with a SA full attack. Burns all your feats though.

[Bears With Lasers]

I have a better thought: Swordsage dip + Shadow Blade.

[Were-Sandwich]

Yeah, Shadow Blade does make TWF a lot better, even if you are limited to sucky weapons, but thats part of TWF anyway.

[stainboy]

I've always house-ruled that anyone can use two-weapon fighting with a standard action. I run extremely mobile fights, so it's not too useful otherwhise.

To keep dualwield sneak attack in line, I could see a rule that on any standard attack action involving multiple attacks, sneak attack only applies on the first attack. That way the rule buffs dualwield fighters, swashbucklers, and rangers (who need it), but doesn't help dualwield rogues much (who are pretty sick already).

[AtomicKitKat]

Drizz't had a Scimitar of Speed right? That might allow for another hit with the primary hand back in 2.x. Still twinkie as hell.

[Matthew]

It wasn't 'of Speed' in the listing, though. Artemis also got five attacks; they were the only Characters out of something like a hundred or so of those presented to get anywhere near that number of attacks, except maybe Jaraxle...

[Ambrogino]

Drizz't had a Scimitar of Speed right? That might allow for another hit with the primary hand back in 2.x. Still twinkie as hell.

No, it was a +5 Defender (Twinkle) and +3 Frost Brand (Icingdeath). But I discovered last time his stats came up there are at least two different renditions of his stats in different places in AD&D books, so maybe one of them's a Scimitar of Speed in a different stat block.

[Matthew]

Which ones are you thinking of?

[Ambrogino]

Which ones are you thinking of?

I know you brought one up not long ago (from Complete Book of Elves maybe?) that didn't have the instant death attack on a natural 20 the one I've seen does. Unfortunatly I can't remember which book it was actually in and my AD&D stuff's all in storage.

[Matthew]

Heroes' Lorebook (1996) and Villains' Lorebook (1998) are the ones I'm thinking of, the first of which contains Drizzt's listing and the second that of Artemis and Jarlaxle; these are the books referred to in The North (1996) supplement. I wouldn't care but they list all the other Two Weapon Fighters in these books correctly... I would be interested to hear where Drizzt is elsewhere listed for comparative purposes. There is a short entry for him in (A)D&D 1.x The Savage Frontier (1988), where he is listed as a 10th Level Ranger who has only one Magical Scimitar, a Frost Brand +3. An instand death attack does sound familiar...

[amanodel]

I just posted the basics of 3.0 D' in the other thread. Not exactly what you're looking for, but maybe of use. I just looked at his and Artemis' builds. From powergaming aspects, they suck.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

You know what would make TWF cooler? Letting the character fight with the weapons defensively, individually. Like, instead of fighting defensively and that's that, you can fight defensively with one or both weapons, which is how actual two-weapon combat is supposed to work. That might be a good idea for unarmed strikes too, since several prominent martial arts are based around that idea (Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do, for instance).

[Were-Sandwich]

Thats actually a really good ideA.

[Thomas]

You know what would make TWF cooler? Letting the character fight with the weapons defensively, individually. Like, instead of fighting defensively and that's that, you can fight defensively with one or both weapons, which is how actual two-weapon combat is supposed to work.

Improved defensive capability would actually be the most realistic way to run two weapons. D&D really drops the ball there. In, for instance, Warhammer Fantasy RP and the new RuneQuest, it's done well - if you don't use a two-handed weapon, you always want to hold a shield or a second weapon in your off-hand, because it gives you an extra parry each round (or, in RQ, you can make an extra attack at -20% to hit).

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I'm no good with numbers, though. Can someone come up with a balanced way to work this? I really think I'll make this a standard houserule.

[amanodel]

Making them cumulative (and with no other thing) would mostly do it. TWF is so inferior it wouldn't broke it.

So if you did it you could have get two times as much AC Bonus, or the same AC bonus while you still have a high "to hit" with one of your weapons.

[Matthew]

I'm no good with numbers, though. Can someone come up with a balanced way to work this? I really think I'll make this a standard houserule.

There have been some great suggestions during the course of this thread; the question is really how much you want to power up Two Weapon Fighting. Combat Expertise Bonuses, Easier Two Weapon Fighting Progression, Two Weapon Fighting as a Standard Action, Static Parries, Opposed Rolled Parries and Flat Armour Class Bonuses are just a few of the Options.

Using Combat Expertise in Combination with an Off Hand Weapon or Shield might grant a double exchange rate [i.e. -1 AB for +2 AC]. Normal Defensive Fighting in this situation might grant full exchange [i.e. -4 AB for +4 AC]. An Off Hand Weapon or Shield would in these situations grant from +2 to +14 AC with an AB penalty of -1 to -9 as the trade off, which sounds reasonable. You could probably safely implement both or one.

[Kantolin]

Mostly aimed at Squishycube, that does indeed answer my question, thanks. I apparantly didn't read the quotes for power attack or double weapons that clearly.

One additional/final question, however. It states 'Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.' Ergo, you are holding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon (insofar as two-weapon fighting with a double weapon).

However, you are holding the Double Weapon in both hands. So would that mean that, while you are two-weapon fighting (With, let's say, an orc double axe)... your 'primary' attack (treated as though it was with a one-handed weapon) deals 1d8 + Str*1.5 damage, then your off-hand attack (treated as though it was a light weapon) deals 1d8 + Str (As it doesn't matter whether or not you are holding a light weapon in both hands or not)?

(Or, in this case, your 'primary' attack would be 1d8 + Str*1.5 + Power Attack (And not PA*2))

[Yuki Akuma]

No, if you're wielding a double weapon as two weapons, you treat it in all ways as two seperate weapons held in seperate hands.

If you use it as a two-handed weapon (like any mage whacking something with his staff), you do add one and a half times your Strength, though.

[Kantolin]

That's what I thought, but that's not explicitly stated anywhere I can find. Although, perhaps that's because I wasn't looking hard enough.

[Pegasos989]

Hmm. BTW, kinda related to making TWF more efficient... What ways are there to add ability damage to each hit? Two Wounding weapons cost a lot and it is very hard to afford even at mid levels, especially for NPCs... So are there spells/class abilities/feats/etc. that would let you cause ability damage on each attack on a full attack?

[amanodel]

Someone mentioned something like that somewhere. Probably from the "Icy Splatbook". Frostburn or whatever. It was DEX damage if I recall it correctly.

[AtomicKitKat]

10th level(May be taken at 10th, 13th, 16th, or 19th. Each ability may only be taken once) Rogue Special Ability Crippling Strike lets you do 2 Strength damage per Sneak Attack. You could also pick up Staggering Strike to reduce their ability to move. There's the PHB2 alternative class feature where you sacrifice Uncanny Dodge(You get it in place of IUD later on though) to reduce opponent AC by 5 for 1 round on a Sneak Attack(You might have to sacrifice the Sneak Attack on the first attack, but the rest of your attacks are practically guaranteed to hit now, since the chance to hit is increased by 25%{5/20}). Not a bad trade-off, IMNSHO, since a Rogue should never be caught flat-footed or flanked to begin with, and you can always get IUD by multi-classing into something that has Uncanny Dodge.