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Ali
2006-12-30, 07:23 PM
You can find a list of them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greyhawk_deities

Which Deity would you follow if you were in the world of Greyhawk? Pelor? Wee Jas?

I personally would worship Ehlonna, goddess of the woodlands.

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-30, 07:47 PM
I'd most likely worship boccob,god of magic,due to the fact that my preffered class is wizard.
i like fire ball

Saph
2006-12-30, 07:48 PM
Hanali Celanil - elven deity of art, love, and beauty.

- Saph

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-30, 07:49 PM
Greyhawk has a crappy pantheon. FR would be better for this.

I wouldn't worship anyone, in Greyhawk. Well, maybe Olidammara, because he's awesome.

In Faerun--well, I may be an atheist, but I'd become a cleric (or, ideally, archivist--low WIS) of Lliira in a snap. Best god evar.

Edit: y'know, I don't think a deity of nature--in which animals have to kill each other to live, and some creatures actually implant their eggs inside other, still-living creatures, so that they eat the creature alive from the inside once they hatch--should ever be Good.

Dark Knight Renee
2006-12-30, 07:51 PM
Hanali is a FR deity, though.

Greyhawk/Default D&D: None, 'cus all the default deities suck (IMO, anyway).

Khantalas
2006-12-30, 07:51 PM
Ilsensine.

Thomas
2006-12-30, 07:53 PM
Wastri's portfolio is so cool I'd worship him... her... er, it? ... just for the amphibians.

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-30, 07:55 PM
Hanali Celanil is in grey hawk
check in races of the wild,but i think she did first appear in faerun

Chunklets
2006-12-30, 08:02 PM
Well, Kurtulmak, of course! :smallbiggrin: Failing that, either Lirr or Ehlonna.

TheOOB
2006-12-30, 08:06 PM
Zilchus, any god whos holy symbol is a hand holding a bag of gold is a god I can get behind.

Thomas
2006-12-30, 08:07 PM
Bow down to my god of self-deceiving bigoted frogs!

Dark Knight Renee
2006-12-30, 08:08 PM
Meh. I forgot, actual Greyhawk has just as many deities as Faerun, if not more.

I'm really not all that familiar with most of them outside Faerun. Hypothetically, if I really lived in Faerun, chances are I would be a 1st level commoner and would probably worship Chauntea. 'Cus, you know, she keeps those food crops happy. :smalltongue: Unless I were magically talented, then it'd be Mystra (the Greyhawk god of magic is boring, though).

danielf
2006-12-30, 08:15 PM
Pelor is a nice god i think

Winged One
2006-12-30, 08:20 PM
Having only seen this list just now, Trithereon seems right up my alley.

Dhavaer
2006-12-30, 08:35 PM
Pelor or Boccob. Although Kord would be a great guy to go drinking with.

Diggorian
2006-12-30, 08:40 PM
Trithereon
http://www.geocities.com/thelorddiggus/images.jpg

Never noticed him before a player in my Greyhawk camp chose to make a fighter/cleric of his faith. The PC eventually took on a gnoll army in order to make his church the offical religion of the Yeomanry (only democracy in the setting).

This let me run a Two Towers-like game. It was an Epic 7th level adventure, best I've run in D&D. :smallamused:

reorith
2006-12-30, 08:46 PM
st. cuthbert. because beating the wrong is fun

Scorpina
2006-12-30, 08:47 PM
Eh, if I could worship any D&D deity it would be Mystra or Sune from FR (or, um, maybe Loviatar)

...but if I have to pick a Greyhawk one, um, Wee Jas, I guess...

bosssmiley
2006-12-30, 09:24 PM
st. cuthbert. because beating the wrong is fun

Future son-in-law material right there! :smallbiggrin:

Me, I'd either worship Heironeous(sp?) in his aspect as Leeroy Jenkins!, or Wee Jas, or maybe Pholtus of the Blinding Light (free set of blinkers when you convert...), or maybe Wastri...
I's all about messing with expectations. But strangely am not allowed to play clerics anymore. :smallfrown:

MrNexx
2006-12-30, 10:45 PM
Hanali Celanil is in grey hawk
check in races of the wild,but i think she did first appear in faerun

You make game historians cry.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2006-12-30, 11:04 PM
Nerull or Erythnul. I like them.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-30, 11:07 PM
...and do you think that's ethical?

Behold_the_Void
2006-12-30, 11:10 PM
Probably Pelor or Bahamut.

MandibleBones
2006-12-30, 11:21 PM
Pelor, Bahamut, Farlangh or Celestian. Possibly all four as a pantheon.

blackout
2006-12-30, 11:27 PM
I wouldn't worship any of them. Gods suck, paladins suck, and clerics suck. No offense to paladins, but most of the time you guys are a little self-rightous and supposedly all-mighty. Clerics, you guys really aren't all that bad, until you try to convert my character and won't let up. It just gets to the point where I drive my Longsword +3 through your stomach and then Coup De Grace you. Gods, your just following your portfolios, and I respect that, but don't try to seek me out and make me worship you. It ain't happenin'.

WarBrute
2006-12-30, 11:29 PM
It would have to be Kord.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-30, 11:29 PM
I wouldn't worship any of them. Gods suck, paladins suck, and clerics suck. No offense to paladins, but most of the time you guys are a little self-rightous and supposedly all-mighty. Clerics, you guys really aren't all that bad, until you try to convert my character and won't let up. It just gets to the point where I drive my Longsword +3 through your stomach and then Coup De Grace you. Gods, your just following your portfolios, and I respect that, but don't try to seek me out and make me worship you. It ain't happenin'.

You wouldn't like Faerun.

blackout
2006-12-30, 11:33 PM
Actually, Faerun is the only campaign setting I've played in, and it isn't all that bad. My character just believes that there's no such thing as a 'correct' path, but gods, paladins, and clerics try to make it so that you believe that their faith is 'correct.' I follow my own path. May not be the correct one in the eyes of any dieties, but I don't really care.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-30, 11:37 PM
...and if you do that, in Faerun, your afterlife sucketh arse.

blackout
2006-12-30, 11:41 PM
So? I don't care. Here and now, dude. Here and now.

Neek
2006-12-30, 11:59 PM
The correct answer to this question is Kyuss.

But that's only if I could play the Sons of Kyuss' self-titled at "worship."

themightybiggun
2006-12-31, 12:36 AM
Edit: y'know, I don't think a deity of nature--in which animals have to kill each other to live, and some creatures actually implant their eggs inside other, still-living creatures, so that they eat the creature alive from the inside once they hatch--should ever be Good.

Spoken like a person who's had a really bad camping trip.

Kord. Hands down.

Draco Ignifer
2006-12-31, 03:54 AM
Trithereon sounds like a good choice to me. God of individuality and liberty... as well as retribution and self-defense. And he's Chaotic Good. Sounds like just my kind of guy. :smallbiggrin:

ghost_warlock
2006-12-31, 04:00 AM
Hmmm...If I lived in the world of Greyhawk, who would I worship...?

Delleb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delleb), Rao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rao_%28Greyhawk%29), Xan Yae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xan_Yae), Zagyg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagyg), Zodal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodal), and Zuoken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuoken) appear to be worthwhile deities with portfolios I'd actually appreciate and adhere to. Otherwise, "Meh."

I've always thought Erythnul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythnul) is fun to say! :smalltongue:

Pera, the CG goddess of cats, love, sensuality, and undead-slaying from my own homebrew pantheon would otherwise get my vote! :smallcool:

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-31, 05:19 AM
Unless I were magically talented, then it'd be Mystra (the Greyhawk god of magic is boring, though).

Boring?Magic is never boring!No matter what god controls it!
Though i agree, mystra kicks boccobs butt.

MrNexx
2006-12-31, 05:24 AM
Personally, I really like Boccob. Absolutely no restrictions on what you do, so long as it doesn't interfere with magic as a whole... even destroying incidentals is fine with him.

I play a LOT of Cloistered clerics of Boccob.

Nevrmore
2006-12-31, 05:26 AM
Incabulos. Got to get on that guy's good side before it's too late.

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-31, 05:31 AM
Personally, I really like Boccob. Absolutely no restrictions on what you do, so long as it doesn't interfere with magic as a whole... even destroying incidentals is fine with him.

I play a LOT of Cloistered clerics of Boccob.

So does Mystra,she practically allows anything as long as u dont muck with the weave.
But if she bars u from the weave their is allways shar and her shadow magic.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 05:48 AM
Shadow Magic: because it seemed like a good idea at the time.

(You know, I don't understand clerics of mystra/boccob. If arcane magic is so great and awesome... shouldn't you be busy learning some?)

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-31, 06:52 AM
Hey man shdow magic is cool,e.g.gnome illusionist(variant in unearthed arcana),shadow magic,spelll focus,greater spell focus.
at,like,lvl 10\15 you get +5 dc to illusions

MrNexx
2006-12-31, 07:07 AM
So does Mystra,she practically allows anything as long as u dont muck with the weave.
But if she bars u from the weave their is allways shar and her shadow magic.

Not quite, Oh Requirer of Basic Spelling and Grammar Lessons. Mystra's CLERICS have to adhere to her alignment restrictions (which are a bit wider than normal; determined as if she were both LN and NG; even then, there's no TN). She may not prevent the NE, CN, and CE from accessing the Weave, but that's not because she approves... simply because she doesn't prevent you from using a natural resource so long as you don't pee in the well.

Boccob, on the other hand, genuinely doesn't care. CE? Fine. LG? Doesn't matter. Chaotic Stupid with a side of inbred? So long as you're furthering the cause of magic first, knowledge second, and not getting in his way, he's a-okay.

Gryndle
2006-12-31, 07:15 AM
None. None of the gods in any of the published settings are infalible. So if I am going to follow a path that is by definition flawed, i'll follow my own. At least that way, i only have to worry about what i feel is right and wrong, as oppossed to some fickle, uncaring deity.

Valairn
2006-12-31, 07:18 AM
Actually if you read the history of Mystra during the Time of Troubles she fought Helm and lost her life to save the world from the evil gods. There are lots of reasons to worship her for her own sake, after all she gave her life to protect all yall mucks. Midnight her replacement "aka Mystra now" is NG and a fairly fantastic diety of magic for good, not just for magic. At least that's my take on it.

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-31, 07:19 AM
in response to MrNexx

True,if you are a cleric.
I am talking about arcane magic,in which she can bar most arcane spellcasters(with an expecption to shadow weave users).

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 07:22 AM
None. None of the gods in any of the published settings are infalible. So if I am going to follow a path that is by definition flawed, i'll follow my own. At least that way, i only have to worry about what i feel is right and wrong, as oppossed to some fickle, uncaring deity.

Except that, of course, not all flaws are equally large. You're more likely to be wrong than a deity is.

Ali
2006-12-31, 07:33 AM
Bah, I like the Greyhawk deities better then the Forgotten Realms deities.

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2006-12-31, 07:45 AM
Grey hawk deities might be cool, its just that i think the entire pantheon is not very well known,like, i've never heard of half of the deities mentioned here

Neo
2006-12-31, 08:01 AM
Meh, from the sounds of those mentioned here Zagyg sounds the most interesting.

Meh, i'm an FR peep what can I say :D

blackout if you don't appreciate gods then make like Elminster and get yourself some god nookie. Kinda like my current character and the Red Knight as he digs chicks in armour.

blackout
2006-12-31, 08:53 AM
None. None of the gods in any of the published settings are infalible. So if I am going to follow a path that is by definition flawed, i'll follow my own. At least that way, i only have to worry about what i feel is right and wrong, as oppossed to some fickle, uncaring deity.
Ding, we have a winner.

Natania
2006-12-31, 09:03 AM
Olidammara!!1 absolutly.... I think he's the only god who sees the world with as much fun as I do. esspecially if I lived in dnd :smalltongue: Anyway who wouldn't want a god who's called the Laughing Rogue and who's portfolio say's Wine, humor, and music??

Captain van der Decken
2006-12-31, 09:06 AM
Well, I'd rather pray to some good schmuck and go to heaven, than have that sucky afterlife in the Fugue plane.

heroe_de_leyenda
2006-12-31, 09:17 AM
I would like to follow Heironeus, for the lawful good/chivalry stuff but his 'teachings', portfolio, etc. is very short, so maybe I'd choose Pelor, but I'd be LG anyway, even if cleric.

But as is said above, no path seems to e unique, and no one claims to be the one tru path, so maybe follow "Good" as a cause would fit me better.

In eberron I'd be a follower of the Silver Flame!, Now that's a one way path!

Gryndle
2006-12-31, 10:17 AM
Except that, of course, not all flaws are equally large. You're more likely to be wrong than a deity is.

Doubtful. I've read the Time of Troubles. Most of teh Faerunian gods are idiots.

blackout
2006-12-31, 10:27 AM
Most of teh Faerunian gods are idiots.
Gods in general are idiots.

Skyserpent
2006-12-31, 10:28 AM
Wee Jas, I've always been partial to a Neutral God of Death...

That or Fharlanghn Because his name was that tough to spell.

Soniku
2006-12-31, 12:18 PM
Well, greyhawk it would have to be

"Erevan Ilesere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erevan_Ilesere), god of mischief, change and rogues"

But I'm more of a FRer myself, and 100% a follower of

"Beshaba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beshaba): Goddess of random mischief, misfortune, bad luck, accidents"

n_n

Nevrmore
2006-12-31, 12:40 PM
Gods in general are idiots.
Hey man, Incabulos will plague your family for saying that crap!

unlit.candle
2006-12-31, 03:46 PM
I would choose Vecna. Secrets are awsome.

blackout
2006-12-31, 04:01 PM
Hey man, Incabulos will plague your family for saying that crap!
Incabulos is a moron, and you know it. God of disease, what kind of idiot would worship that? What are the benefits? A wicked immune system? HOOPDYFREAKINDOO!

Nevrmore
2006-12-31, 05:17 PM
Incabulos is a moron, and you know it. God of disease, what kind of idiot would worship that? What are the benefits? A wicked immune system? HOOPDYFREAKINDOO!
Smite my enemies with horrible plagues, for one.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 05:28 PM
Smite my enemies with horrible plagues, for one.

Yeah, but that's unethical.

YPU
2006-12-31, 05:37 PM
Chaotic good atheist, I once in a while find myself sickened by my own goodness. Probably still a cleric trying out how much divine power you can get without praying to anything.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 05:50 PM
As much as anyone else, if you become a cleric of a cause or philosophy. Of course, in the Forgotten Realms, this still dooms you to a crappy afterlife, because the gods don't want people not worshipping them.

YPU
2006-12-31, 06:19 PM
Then again, would a atheist even believe in a real afterlives? Or do souls simply hibernate until hopefully resurrected?
Anyway, I’m not planning on going into philosophical discussion here. But could you for instance ,in DnD that is, believe that something very good is going to happen to you after your dead. And since you believe in it there is a “god” for it, would that god offer enough space for one soul to rest very comfortably?

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 06:26 PM
If you live in the Forgotten Realms, where spells like Speak With Dead and other divinations to let you commune with the dead exist, the afterlife isn't a matter of faith. Likewise, there aren't really any atheists, because the existence of divine powers is so manifestly obvious; it would be like not beleiving in kings. Planescape has the Athar, but they reject the idea that the "gods" are "real Gods" and worthy of worship, they don't not believe they exist.

In Generic D&D World, you don't have to worship a deity, and you'll just go to an afterlife-plane based on whatever your alignment is. In the Forgotten Realms, the gods actively changed that, and nonbelievers suffer a pretty crummy fate once they die. This wasn't ethical of the gods or anything, but Soul Capitalism doesn't induce ethics any more than the regular kind does, really.

TheOOB
2006-12-31, 06:36 PM
Some of the greyhawk gods acually have pretty cool histories if you care to look them up, like Wee Jas, the Sueloise goddess of magic, gained her death aspect after the rain of colorless fire. The Suel wanted to make sure the souls of their dead where being properly cared for in the afterlife so Wee Jas became kind of a soul shepard.

She's still more a goddess of magic though.

Nevrmore
2006-12-31, 06:58 PM
Yeah, but that's unethical.
I fail to see where ethics would come into play when your patron deity is the god of disease, destruction and disaster. I mean, if a person says "Hi, I'm Bob, I worship Incabulos." You should be able to gather that Bob is not going to be living up to any modern standard of "Good".

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 07:09 PM
I fail to see where ethics would come into play when your patron deity is the god of disease, destruction and disaster. I mean, if a person says "Hi, I'm Bob, I worship Incabulos." You should be able to gather that Bob is not going to be living up to any modern standard of "Good".
Of course you should be able to gather that. That doesn't make it okay, now does it.

Devils_Advocate
2006-12-31, 08:11 PM
Actually, Faerun is the only campaign setting I've played in, and it isn't all that bad. My character just believes that there's no such thing as a 'correct' path, but gods, paladins, and clerics try to make it so that you believe that their faith is 'correct.' I follow my own path. May not be the correct one in the eyes of any dieties, but I don't really care.
Ideally, you want to find a god who supports/encourages whatever you do anyway. Then you can still do what you want and have a deity on your side.

With enough gods, there can very nearly be one for everyone, no matter what they believe in. If you find, however, that no god fits your preferred lifestyle, then obviously there is a niche still waiting to be filled, and you should try to become a god yourself as soon as reasonably possible. :smallwink:


Though i agree, mystra kicks boccobs butt.
To be fair, that's probably only because Boccob lets her.

Mystra: Boccob, I have come to defeat you!
Boccob: Really? Huh. Well, okay. Consider it done.
Mystra: ... Um... What?
Boccob: I concede the battle. You win.
Mystra: Um...
Boccob: Look, are we done here?


(You know, I don't understand clerics of mystra/boccob. If arcane magic is so great and awesome... shouldn't you be busy learning some?)
Since when are Mystra and Boccob only deities of arcane magic? :smallconfused:


Not quite, Oh Requirer of Basic Spelling and Grammar Lessons.
Hahaha! This is one of those things that cracked me up more than it probably should've. Heehee... Seriously though, I think that a lot more people online just don't bother to use proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation than just plain can't. I can empathize with that, as I'm pretty lazy myself. I'm just also pedantic.

(On the other hand, a lot of folks genuinely seem to confuse "your" with "you're" and "they're" with "their". What's up with that? How is it hard to keep those straight?)


Boccob, on the other hand, genuinely doesn't care. CE? Fine. LG? Doesn't matter.Don't Boccob's clerics still have to stay within one alignment step of their god, like all clerics? I don't remember reading in the PHB that Boccob was an exception to this rule. Is it somewhere in some Greyhawk setting material?


So long as you're furthering the cause of magic first, knowledge second, and not getting in his way, he's a-okay.This is why I think I would sooner choose Mystra than Boccob. It might be very easy to follow a deity without a lot of principles, but I would have a hard time actually worhipping such an entity. Ultimate mastery over magic may be impressive, but I do not find it inherently admirable. I think of such things as being important, in the grand scheme of things, because they are such powerful tools with which do things that are inherently significant.

But for a magic-user who takes the opposite view -- one who sees knowledge and power as ends in themselves and who is relatively unconcerned with morals and ethics -- Boccob is great.


Of course you should be able to gather that. That doesn't make it okay, now does it.
Well, of course it doesn't. The point is that Bob doesn't care that it's not okay. "But that's unethical" does not dissuade him from his activities. Bob is just going to reply "Yeah, so?" It rather makes one wonder why you bothered to voice the objection at all, since said objection (a) is obvious, and (b) doesn't change anything.

The Orange Zergling
2006-12-31, 08:29 PM
Either Rao, god of peace, serenity, and reason, or Zodal, god of mercy, hope and benevolence for me...

Altair_the_Vexed
2006-12-31, 08:35 PM
I would "worship" Neutral Good. And I'd get spells, too. :biggrin:

The religion I follow doesn't do deities, even the ones who walk the earth / Oerth.

bosssmiley
2006-12-31, 08:37 PM
Incabulos is a moron, and you know it. God of disease, what kind of idiot would worship that? What are the benefits? A wicked immune system? HOOPDYFREAKINDOO!

Anyone who wishes to avoid disease will propitiate Incabulos. Propitiation is the flip-side of reverential worship and the gods will draw just as much power from either. "Oh Mighty One, please visit your dubious blessings elsewhere during this time of sickness" is classic, old school 'bargaining with thunderstorms' worship.

Just because you don't like what a god stands for, doesn't mean you shouldn't show due respect.

blackout
2006-12-31, 09:25 PM
Anyone who wishes to avoid disease will propitiate Incabulos. Propitiation is the flip-side of reverential worship and the gods will draw just as much power from either. "Oh Mighty One, please visit your dubious blessings elsewhere during this time of sickness" is classic, old school 'bargaining with thunderstorms' worship.

Just because you don't like what a god stands for, doesn't mean you shouldn't show due respect.

Actually, that's exactly what it means. To me. :smallbiggrin:


Ideally, you want to find a god who supports/encourages whatever you do anyway. Then you can still do what you want and have a deity on your side.

With enough gods, there can very nearly be one for everyone, no matter what they believe in. If you find, however, that no god fits your preferred lifestyle, then obviously there is a niche still waiting to be filled, and you should try to become a god yourself as soon as reasonably possible. :smallwink:


Ok, I hereby declare my character, Badazz Mastakilla, the god of mercenaries, commerce, and free trade. There. :smalltongue:

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-31, 09:49 PM
Do D&D gods even answer prayers? I mean, beyond granting cleric spells?

blackout
2006-12-31, 10:01 PM
NO. No they don't. Only 'the favored' get their prayers answered. AKA, the most insane zealots in the entire faith, willing to give up their lives for a god that doesn't even answer the prayers of the common folk. This is part of the reason that I don't worship a god.

Thomas
2006-12-31, 10:33 PM
Do D&D gods even answer prayers? I mean, beyond granting cleric spells?

Sure, if the DM wants them to. FR deities at least take a pretty active role in the world. In a proper, dramatic situation, with the proper, dramatic RP, I might have a deity answer a prayer (probably in some subtle way).

Kevka Palazzo
2006-12-31, 10:38 PM
Bahamut.

Me <3 Dragons.

MrNexx
2006-12-31, 11:36 PM
in response to MrNexx

True,if you are a cleric.
I am talking about arcane magic,in which she can bar most arcane spellcasters(with an expecption to shadow weave users).

Actually, Mystra has shown the ability to cut ANYONE off from magic. She briefly cut Cyric off from the Weave, until someone told her that might not be the best of precedents to set.


In Generic D&D World, you don't have to worship a deity, and you'll just go to an afterlife-plane based on whatever your alignment is. In the Forgotten Realms, the gods actively changed that, and nonbelievers suffer a pretty crummy fate once they die. This wasn't ethical of the gods or anything, but Soul Capitalism doesn't induce ethics any more than the regular kind does, really.

Not quite. It is not that the Gods changed the nature of Faerun's afterlife to send people to the Fugue Plane. It is that the nature of Faerun's afterlife is that you go to the Fugue Plane. The Gods changed it so that their believers come with them. They have no reason to intercede with those that refuse to believe in them.

In 3.5, the worlds don't follow the same cosmological justifications, after all.

Indoril
2006-12-31, 11:41 PM
I'd worship Fharlanghn. Two reasons...

One because I actually had to go and nab my PHB to spell it. Two, because if you say it really fast, it sounds like you're sneezing.

Athenodorus
2006-12-31, 11:55 PM
Is there a prohibition against worship of Ao, like there is for Our Beloved Lady?

MrNexx
2007-01-01, 12:18 AM
There's no prohibition, but I don't think it brings you anything.

However, that raises a question that I don't think is answered... if one sincerely worships Ao, does that count for avoiding the Fugue Plane?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-01, 12:21 AM
Presumably not, since Ao won't take your soul anywhere.

Amotis
2007-01-01, 12:26 AM
Mystra, cause she gives choosen's out left and right and I might get to be one.

If greyhawk, Pelor.

Windhammer
2007-01-01, 12:59 AM
Fharlanghn, god of horizons, distance, travel and roads

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-01, 03:09 AM
St. Cuthbert because I am the LN one in my circle of friends.

And to the agnostic out there, the gods do as best they can, but they only give powers tom their clerics because it would take too much power, leaving them open to "attack" by their rivals, which would be bad for all their worshipers. A god could answer peoples prayers by sending clerics of thier faith, but clerics are a finite rescource and can't be everywhere.

Jades
2007-01-01, 03:18 AM
Kelanen. Who doesn't like the God of Nine Swords? Well, other that WotC who passed up a perfectly good opportunity to pay homage to the Hero-God with a book that used three words of his title in the title of the book...

Jades
2007-01-01, 03:21 AM
NO. No they don't. Only 'the favored' get their prayers answered. AKA, the most insane zealots in the entire faith, willing to give up their lives for a god that doesn't even answer the prayers of the common folk. This is part of the reason that I don't worship a god.

In my campaigns, the gods always listen to your prayers, even if you don't worship them. Then, they decide if they want to help you or not.

More often than not, they help.

MrNexx
2007-01-01, 04:02 AM
Do D&D gods even answer prayers? I mean, beyond granting cleric spells?

It's something that's overlooked D&D, especially (other games, too, but to a somewhat lesser extent): you have some fairly activist deities who don't really take any role in their followers lives except through their specific intermediaries (i.e. clerics and other divinely-empowered classes). I made a couple feats (http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/11340.html) which address this, but even then, they're not great solutions... Both Complete Divine and Deities and Demigods dealt with the "adventurer-level" dealings with deities, not the commoner-level dealings with them.

A good example of this is the spells Plant Growth and Animal Growth. Plant Growth is something every lord should be paying to have cast on his lands, at the very least... it's so valuable that to not spend the gold to increase his land's fertility threefold is likely ruinous. But Animal Growth, which would be just as useful, doesn't have the same "general use" application... the idea of just making an animal "the best it can be" isn't in the spell.

Gralamin
2007-01-01, 05:11 AM
Greyhawk: Boccob
FR: Mystra
Eberron: Aureon
Else: Pun-Pun

Nevrmore
2007-01-01, 05:25 AM
Of course you should be able to gather that. That doesn't make it okay, now does it.
Tell you what; to make it up to you I'll ask Incabulos to strike one of your enemy's with an incurable disease. Deal?


NO. No they don't. Only 'the favored' get their prayers answered. AKA, the most insane zealots in the entire faith, willing to give up their lives for a god that doesn't even answer the prayers of the common folk. This is part of the reason that I don't worship a god.
The thinly veiled social commentary is just great, blackout.

KazilDarkeye
2007-01-01, 08:02 AM
I would worship Nerull because...

1) He is a greater deity (bigger enemy smiting)

2) He is evil (I like lawful evil, but will settle for neutral)

3) He has the whole evil, darkness, murder, the underworld thing down (plus undead)

4) The other guy's name (Mictlantecuhtli) is too hard to pronounce.

5) His favoured weapon is a scythe. I like scythes.

6) He reminds me of Grim from 'The Grim Aventures of Billy and Mandy'

Neo
2007-01-01, 08:16 AM
Though to become a chosen of Mystra she would have to really trust you as compared to others she gives you a portion of her divine essence, more than others do. Stops her going insane and becoming insanely powerful by god standards :D

blackout
2007-01-01, 09:26 AM
6) He reminds me of Grim from 'The Grim Aventures of Billy and Mandy'
Heck, that's reason enough to worship him.

blackout
2007-01-01, 09:30 AM
A good example of this is the spells Plant Growth and Animal Growth. Plant Growth is something every lord should be paying to have cast on his lands, at the very least... it's so valuable that to not spend the gold to increase his land's fertility threefold is likely ruinous. But Animal Growth, which would be just as useful, doesn't have the same "general use" application... the idea of just making an animal "the best it can be" isn't in the spell.
Guard animals for the castle. Lots of tough guard animals for the castle. :smallamused:

Stephen_E
2007-01-01, 09:38 AM
I can't see myself worshipping any god in either Gryhawk or Forgotten realms.

I'd have no problem beleiving in them, afterall there is fairly hard evidence that these incrediably powerful entities exist that for want of a better term we can call "Gods". So what!!
- If you're going to make me suffer in the afterlife if I don't worship you, then you're a tyrant, and screw worshipping some tyrant, I'll just take my lumps.
- If you're offering power/wealth ecetre to worship you, to bad. I'm not that hooked on that stuff.
- So you created/keep running the world! Very nice. I don't worship the Govt ecetre who do a simliar job on a smaller scale, so why should I worship something that does it on a larger scale.
- You created me! Well so did my parents, and love them or hate them, I certainly don't worship them.
- You do stuff that I support. Well so do lots of people. I'll tip my hat for you just as I would for all those other people.
- You are awesomly more powerful than I am! Join the club. There are heaps of people with more power than me. After a point it doesn't matter how much more powerful you are because it's all much of a muchness. 15th lev Wizard, Greater God, no discernable difference down at my level.
(As you might guess I don't do the "Fan" thing either.)

I have no problem working for a God for appropriate renumeration, but lets skip the worship part.

Stephen

ampcptlogic
2007-01-12, 12:07 AM
I like Ilmater.

Skyserpent
2007-01-12, 12:24 AM
I can't see myself worshipping any god in either Gryhawk or Forgotten realms.

I'd have no problem beleiving in them, afterall there is fairly hard evidence that these incrediably powerful entities exist that for want of a better term we can call "Gods". So what!!
- If you're going to make me suffer in the afterlife if I don't worship you, then you're a tyrant, and screw worshipping some tyrant, I'll just take my lumps.
- If you're offering power/wealth ecetre to worship you, to bad. I'm not that hooked on that stuff.
- So you created/keep running the world! Very nice. I don't worship the Govt ecetre who do a simliar job on a smaller scale, so why should I worship something that does it on a larger scale.
- You created me! Well so did my parents, and love them or hate them, I certainly don't worship them.
- You do stuff that I support. Well so do lots of people. I'll tip my hat for you just as I would for all those other people.
- You are awesomly more powerful than I am! Join the club. There are heaps of people with more power than me. After a point it doesn't matter how much more powerful you are because it's all much of a muchness. 15th lev Wizard, Greater God, no discernable difference down at my level.
(As you might guess I don't do the "Fan" thing either.)

I have no problem working for a God for appropriate renumeration, but lets skip the worship part.

Stephen

Way to take the fun out of this... :smallfrown:

Ah well, it's not my place to judge...

themightybiggun
2007-01-12, 12:37 AM
And thus, Margret Weis and Tracy Hickman looked upon the world they had created, and they saw divine wars and cataclysms. And they realized, that not everyone in their fictional world would be too keen on following a god with their own agenda. So they created the Mystic, and they looked upon it, and it was good.

Mystics are to clerics what sorcerers are to wizards. They draw upon inner conviction and strength and a faith in themselves to perform miracles. They get one domain (the idea is that it's the inner personality coming out in their magic. i.e. someone who loves animals and champions animals might have the animal domain, while an old former soldier who discovers he has the power to heal might be of the War domain.)

I love this class, sometimes, it's just good to work for yourself.
Every campaign should be able to support skeptics,

Oh, and just so this post stays on topic, my second choice was Farhlanghn. I'm also something of a wanderer.

Fat Daddy
2007-01-12, 12:49 AM
It would be Trithereon, no contest. How can you not have love for the god of individuality, liberty, retribution and self-defense. He's got to have a dogma like this: "live free and be yourself. If anyone messes with you or yours, kick their butts. If you can't defend...hunt them down and kill 'em after the fact."
Not too bad a way to live life if you ask me...

Thomas
2007-01-12, 03:20 AM
- If you're going to make me suffer in the afterlife if I don't worship you, then you're a tyrant, and screw worshipping some tyrant, I'll just take my lumps.

How are they going to make you suffer? They're trying to offer you an alternative to the default condition, which they have nothing to do with. In Faerūn, the default condition (defined by Ao, which makes it pretty much the same as "inalterable cosmic constant") is being put in the wall of Kelemvor's palace (his worshippers actually try to defend the souls there from being stolen by demons and devils). The gods will intercede on behalf of those who've placed their souls in the god's care. The gods don't make the rules - they just play by a set of really big ones.

Druid
2007-01-12, 04:28 AM
Ehlonna. Guess my second choice. That's right, Kord!

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-12, 04:30 AM
Thomas: if you see a man drowning, and could easily save him--is it not wrong to walk on by?

Ninja Chocobo
2007-01-12, 06:24 AM
Nerull. I'm all about the whole "Evil for personal gain" thing.
Which is pretty much the definition of Neutral Evil, the way I read it.
Also, Greater Deity. More smiting powah.

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-12, 06:28 AM
In the Greyhawk pantheon? Heironeous, if I had to choose. From Forgotten Realms, either Tyr or Torm.

Ambrogino
2007-01-12, 06:55 AM
I don't have a great interest in the Greyhawk gods (I'd probably call Lolth if I was at gunpoint, for the inter-planar recognition) but I'm surprised no-one's called Tymora in FR. I've always though of her as having one of the most universally worthwhile portfolios.

Lykan
2007-01-12, 07:03 AM
Either Obad Hai or Fharlanghn.

Thomas
2007-01-12, 07:07 AM
Thomas: if you see a man drowning, and could easily save him--is it not wrong to walk on by?

Sure, but the gods don't have that option. In your metaphor, the god is behind an unbreakable glass wall watching it happen. The man on top (Ao) put it there, and will only let the god on the other side if the mortal worshipped the god. Heck, I bet it hurts Ilmater and other deities to see one of the Faithless go to their damnation.

Whether a universal law is wrong or right is like arguing about the morality of gravity; is it wrong for gravity to make someone fall to their death?

Selv
2007-01-12, 07:35 AM
IRL I'm a tea-pot agnostic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_Teapot), somewhere around LG in D&D alignment and INTJ in Briggs-Meyers alignment, and an enormous pansy.

Rao.

Thomas
2007-01-12, 07:42 AM
I think you mean the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (which is a load of unresearched pseudoscience based pretty much entirely on Jung's zany, equally unfounded theories - which were mostly metaphysics anyway)... it's about as useful an indicator of anything as your horoscope. (That is to say, none, astrology being more magical nonsense.)

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-12, 07:42 AM
Sure, but the gods don't have that option. In your metaphor, the god is behind an unbreakable glass wall watching it happen. The man on top (Ao) put it there, and will only let the god on the other side if the mortal worshipped the god. Heck, I bet it hurts Ilmater and other deities to see one of the Faithless go to their damnation.

Whether a universal law is wrong or right is like arguing about the morality of gravity; is it wrong for gravity to make someone fall to their death?

Except that that's not the case; the gods choose to only take their faithful.
In fact, when Kelemvor wanted to make things more pleasant for the Faithless, the other gods stepped in and went "oh no you don't!"

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-12, 07:45 AM
Sure, but the gods don't have that option. In your metaphor, the god is behind an unbreakable glass wall watching it happen. The man on top (Ao) put it there, and will only let the god on the other side if the mortal worshipped the god. Heck, I bet it hurts Ilmater and other deities to see one of the Faithless go to their damnation.
Or even the False. I'm hearkening back to Torm's rage at Cyric's temptation unto death of a worshiper of his who'd fallen away, to the point where he went to the Fugue Plane to try to rescue him from Cyric, who was at that point still Lord of the Dead. Torm was furious, but despite his best efforts, Gwydion had not adhered to Torm's ideals in life, and so he could not take him, despite being a god with the will and desire to do so. It's not that the gods of good don't want to help; it's that they can't.

Reference the Prince of Lies novel, if anyone's interested. It's a fairly good story, as FR novels go.

Thomas
2007-01-12, 07:53 AM
Or even the False. I'm hearkening back to Torm's rage at Cyric's temptation unto death of a worshiper of his who'd fallen away, to the point where he went to the Fugue Plane to try to rescue him from Cyric, who was at that point still Lord of the Dead. Torm was furious, but despite his best efforts, Gwydion had not adhered to Torm's ideals in life, and so he could not take him, despite being a god with the will and desire to do so. It's not that the gods of good don't want to help; it's that they can't.

Yeah. FR deities - and most D&D deities - aren't the ones making the rules and deciding how everything works. They're not the creators, but more like custodians, watching over certain aspects of the world and certain facets of life.

And the responsibility really is on the mortals. If they decide to not worship any deity, why should the deities be responsible for them? You can offer help, but you can't force it on others - in fact, forcing "help" and "guidance" on others is bordering on LE.

Behold_the_Void
2007-01-12, 11:38 AM
Doesn't Kelemvor put the faithless and the false in places built around people who were of the same kind of person as they were in life now?

Deus Mortus
2007-01-12, 12:01 PM
Boccob hands down, knowledge is power!

Dark
2007-01-12, 12:18 PM
I wouldn't worship just one god. The whole idea of a pantheon is that you worship all of them in their proper context. So I'd pray to Fharlanghn before setting out on a journey, to Berei while my wife is in childbirth, to St. Cuthbert if I need courage to speak up for someone, and so forth. I might pray to, invoke, or propitiate a dozen gods during the course of a day.

Or would that be boring? :)

I've never liked the "choose one god" model of D&D clerics.

the_tick_rules
2007-01-12, 12:21 PM
st. cuthbert.

Telonius
2007-01-12, 12:46 PM
Istus, gotta love the soothsayer things.

Thomas
2007-01-12, 01:00 PM
I wouldn't worship just one god. The whole idea of a pantheon is that you worship all of them in their proper context. So I'd pray to Fharlanghn before setting out on a journey, to Berei while my wife is in childbirth, to St. Cuthbert if I need courage to speak up for someone, and so forth. I might pray to, invoke, or propitiate a dozen gods during the course of a day.

Or would that be boring? :)

I've never liked the "choose one god" model of D&D clerics.

Yeah, it hurts versimilitude. I prefer the Gloranthan system (as presented in HeroQuest). The community worships a pantheon of deities - the Storm Tribe, for instance. When going to war, they offer up prayers and sacrifices to Orlanth and Humakt; for healing, they pray and sacrifice to Chalana Arroy (or Ernalda the Healer, if you want to be boring); when trading, it's Issaries; when settling legal cases, it's Lhankor Mhy (or Jarani Lawstaff, or even Heort)... exceptional individuals can devote themselves to a specialised deity, and a spare few percent of people become godar (god-talkers) with a connection to a specific deity.

Of course, you also get Malkioni (modelled after Christian Europe) with their One God, but even they have a host of saints for different matters (just like Medieval Europe did, actually - you'd pray to a specific saint for specific kinds of "help").

Dark
2007-01-12, 04:53 PM
I prefer the Gloranthan system (as presented in HeroQuest).

The Greyhawk gods are actually pretty adaptable to what you describe. Most of them are specifically regional/cultural. For example Fharlanghn and Heironeous are Oeridian, Kord and Lendor are Suloise, Obad-Hai and Pelor are Flan. Each of those cultures has gods representing the basics (elements, morality, nature, wisdom, fun) but in different combinations of portfolios.

If you re-emphasize those cultural associations, and drop the alignment restrictions, you could create clerics of such groups of gods. Those clerics would not serve a specific god, but would call on each god in the appropriate context.

In some ways, such clerics would be more limited than clerics that serve a single god. They could not arbitrarily "clean out" a cursed graveyard, for example, if that would be an insult to one of the evil gods in their culture. They'd have to get some sort of divine sponsorship for the project, or observe certain rituals while doing it. How does one turn undead respectfully? :)

On the other hand, they would be less subject to divine whimsy, and wouldn't have to spend half their time "converting" people.

TheDarkOne
2007-01-12, 05:47 PM
Dungmaren Brightmantle or Murlynd look likely candidates.

codexgigas
2007-01-12, 10:59 PM
Rao, hands down. I had to be actively talked out of creating a pacifist cleric of Rao once. It seems that the DM and the rest of the party were counting on my cleric being on the frontlines tanking.

Sir_Banjo
2007-01-13, 07:20 AM
Slannesh ... for the loving caress.

the RC factor
2007-01-13, 10:37 AM
dont mean to be a kill-joy but im a Secular Humanist:smallwink: so....yeah...
lol but if i had to choose it would be boccob 'cuz magic pwns all

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-13, 11:27 AM
You are here, but if you were in Faerun or Oerth, the gods' existence would be incontrovertible. :smallwink:

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-13, 12:44 PM
I think Sune from FR has that whole hippie free-love doctrine, so that might suit me. Ehlonna in GH, maybe Corellon or Fharlangan.

Ambrogino
2007-01-14, 03:37 AM
You are here, but if you were in Faerun or Oerth, the gods' existence would be incontrovertible. :smallwink:

That they exist would be incontrovertible. That they are in fact "gods" is not. See the go'auld in Stargate SG-1 for examples of epically powerful beings claiming divinity.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-14, 04:30 AM
No, they in fact have Divine Rank, the essence of godhood, as evidenced by the fact that they have abilities only DvR provides.

Stephen_E
2007-01-14, 05:20 AM
How are they going to make you suffer? They're trying to offer you an alternative to the default condition, which they have nothing to do with. In Faerūn, the default condition (defined by Ao, which makes it pretty much the same as "inalterable cosmic constant") is being put in the wall of Kelemvor's palace (his worshippers actually try to defend the souls there from being stolen by demons and devils). The gods will intercede on behalf of those who've placed their souls in the god's care. The gods don't make the rules - they just play by a set of really big ones.

Actually it appears that they do make the rules. The rule been "If you worship/serve us we'll give you a nice afterlife. If you don't you can take your lumps in the nasty afterlife". If you tell me that there is some greater force that only allows them to save people who worship them you have a better case, but then that puts Faeruns God's into the Feudal Lord area. Sure they're powerful, but they still run by someone else's rules, so why should I worship them? They're just someone more powerful than I am.

The Mystics sound good to me.

Stephen

Stephen_E
2007-01-14, 05:26 AM
Yeah. FR deities - and most D&D deities - aren't the ones making the rules and deciding how everything works. They're not the creators, but more like custodians, watching over certain aspects of the world and certain facets of life.

And the responsibility really is on the mortals. If they decide to not worship any deity, why should the deities be responsible for them? You can offer help, but you can't force it on others - in fact, forcing "help" and "guidance" on others is bordering on LE.

Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't sound like they're offering help so much as servitude. More like some mobster offering to take you on as his man.

Do the FR Gods actually gain something from this worship? i.e. Are Gods who're worshipped more, more powerful than those with few worshippers?

Like I said. I can do a business relationship with these people, but worship is something else again.

Stephen

Stephen_E
2007-01-14, 05:34 AM
You are here, but if you were in Faerun or Oerth, the gods' existence would be incontrovertible. :smallwink:

That means you have to beleive in the existance of those entities. It doesn't mean you have to worship them, or even beleive they are what they say, or that the rules are what they say. "We can only rescue you from eternal damnation if you worship us. Really. Why would we lie to you". Can I have some independant opinions on that.

Stephen

Stephen_E
2007-01-14, 05:38 AM
No, they in fact have Divine Rank, the essence of godhood, as evidenced by the fact that they have abilities only DvR provides.

And you know this because they and their Clerics tell you so.........
This sounds so much like many politicians. When a Politician or God says "Trust me" I start checking my belongings.

Stephen

Wehrkind
2007-01-14, 05:52 AM
Well, if you are looking for independant opinions, you could always get a scroll of speak with dead, or be visited by a ghost. Unlike real life where death is a one way street, in D&D it is a lot more like moving to Britain from the USA. It isn't easy to communicate back and forth, but it is very possible. Just as I can call up Britain and talk with someone claiming to be [Scrubbed], so too can someone talk with the dead and see what is going on. It is expensive and difficult to be 100% certain thre is not trick, but not much different otherwise.

I have always sort of had a soft spot for gods of justice. Reason and justice are things I can really get behind.

joe
2007-01-14, 05:58 AM
I'd worship Tharzidun!!!! :smalltongue:

zachol
2007-01-14, 06:21 AM
Personally, Zagyg.
If I were what I think I'd be (a magic item crafter), I'd probably also be one of the ones to acknowledge Murlynd's divinity in an active way.

However, my "default religion" for characters is Fharlanghn.

Amphetryon
2007-01-14, 06:33 AM
Murlynd or Delleb most likely, though Fortubo is interesting just because I like the Dwarves so much.

Destro_Yersul
2007-01-14, 06:35 AM
Trithereon. God of individuality? Oh heck yes.

Thomas
2007-01-14, 07:00 AM
Is it ironic that the god of individuality is so popular?

Meanwhile, I'm the only one who's all for bigoted, self-deceiving amphibians!

GolemsVoice
2007-01-14, 07:16 AM
I think I would worship Rao, Pelor or Heironeous. Raeloreous?
First, I like Paladins. Then, I like light, and healing, and beeing good in general, and truth'n'justice.

Drascin
2007-01-14, 07:18 AM
In Greyhawk... I know little of the gods there, but Trithereon seems interesting for a hardcore CG personality like me.

In FR, probably Selune. Merciful, compassionate, yet quite random and kept to herself. That basically sums me up. Plus, she has a lot of cute priestesses serving her too, which is always a plus ;).

Stephen_E
2007-01-14, 08:56 AM
Well, if you are looking for independant opinions, you could always get a scroll of speak with dead, or be visited by a ghost. Unlike real life where death is a one way street, in D&D it is a lot more like moving to Britain from the USA. It isn't easy to communicate back and forth, but it is very possible. Just as I can call up Britain and talk with someone claiming to be Tony Blair, so too can someone talk with the dead and see what is going on. It is expensive and difficult to be 100% certain thre is not trick, but not much different otherwise.

I have always sort of had a soft spot for gods of justice. Reason and justice are things I can really get behind.

Sorry. I should've added "well informed". There is no reason to think that any particular dead person is really going to know what's going on in the afterlife. "Hey Joe. Are these Gods telling us the truth that they can only save us from suffering if we worship them, and there's nothing they can do about it". Joe: "What, you think anyone important talks to me. Who do you think I am".

Even if you did get hold of some powerful dead person it would be similiar to getting a real-life major political figure on the phone. They're not going to proceed to answer your every question on matters they feel are confidential, or nessacarily be truthful in the answers they give.

[Scrubbed]


Stephen

Wraithy
2007-01-14, 04:44 PM
Probably these ones:
Obad-Hai, god of nature, woodlands, freedom, hunting and beasts.
Saint Cuthbert, god of common sense, wisdom, zeal, honesty, truth, and discipline.
Rao, god of peace, reason and serenity.

Oh, and at a party:
Olidammara, god of music, revels, wine, rogues, humor, and tricks.

CrazedGoblin
2007-01-14, 04:52 PM
boccob for me, fireball is the best!

Cybren
2007-01-14, 05:03 PM
None. The nature of the afterlife is irrelevent once I complete the final steps in achieving lichdom.

Frosty Flake
2007-01-14, 05:20 PM
Murlynd all the way. I would carry around a 'religious' six-shooter and dress in 'ceremonial' brimmed hat and oilskin duster. Who couldn't love a god that's basically Wyatt Erp with magical powers? You know what, I think I might just start worshiping him right now! Who cares if he doesn't exist, eh? Or... does he? Maybe he's an avatar of Eris and I am the prophet of a new Discordian sect! Swear allegiance to the Marshalls of Murlynd and wear the holy six-pointed star with pride!

CuthroatMcGee
2007-01-14, 07:43 PM
I'd go for Boccob, St. Cuthbert, or Hextor. Any order is preferable to chaos. And I'd serve as a cleric for St. Cuthbert or Hextor, and I'd make it a goal to destroy Olidammara's following and kill him(her? it?) myself. I hate chaos.

Frosty Flake
2007-01-14, 09:38 PM
I'd go for Boccob, St. Cuthbert, or Hextor. Any order is preferable to chaos. And I'd serve as a cleric for St. Cuthbert or Hextor, and I'd make it a goal to destroy Olidammara's following and kill him(her? it?) myself. I hate chaos.

dons *I Love Order* T-shirt...

Please don't hurt me Mr. Scaryman

zachol
2007-01-15, 12:46 AM
Maybe he's an avatar of Eris and I am the prophet of a new Discordian sect!

I am highly amused by the idea that I'm not the only Discordian around.


Actually, I'm not even surprised, but still.

Though I don't see Murlynd as that much of a prophet of Eris. He's cool, but not a saint...

Talya
2007-01-15, 12:54 AM
Greyhawke doesn't have analogues for my favorite Faerun pantheon gods: Sharess, Sune, Lathander.

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-15, 01:15 AM
That means you have to beleive in the existance of those entities. It doesn't mean you have to worship them, or even beleive they are what they say, or that the rules are what they say. "We can only rescue you from eternal damnation if you worship us. Really. Why would we lie to you". Can I have some independant opinions on that.

Stephen
Oh, come off it. In a high-magic world, there are any number of ways to determine the fate of souls in the afterlife. That will show you, in no uncertain terms, that the souls of the wicked are damned to either Baator or the Abyss depending on their ethical alignment (in Oerth's cosmology) and that the souls of those who do not follow the gods are placed into the Wall of the Faithless unless stolen by demons or they agree to pacts with devils (in Toril). That right there should be enough; if it is extortion, it's very convincing extortion.

Now, given some more research, you may come to the conclusion that it is not the gods who did this. When Heironeous found out about the deceptions in the fine print of the Pact Primeval, he wanted to slay Asmodeus but was bound by Law, as in the universal force of it, from doing so. When Torm desperately wanted to remove Gwydion of Cormyr from the City of Strife after Cyric tricked him to his death, he could not do so because Gwydion had been False. If the gods damn people at their whim, could Torm not have simply taken the soul that fancied him and suffered no consequence?

This is even more true in Oerth than Faerun; in Faerun the gods have Ao standing over them imposing all this, but in the Greyhawk setting the alignments, Nature, and several other things are independent universal forces, almost akin to gravity, that even the gods cannot control. It is massively unfair to blame the gods for the existing order of things when they weren't responsible for it.

zachol
2007-01-15, 01:43 AM
Hmm.

I recently began playing in a game.
So recently, in fact, that we haven't started (yay pbp!).

It's going to be a campaign version (long-form) of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.
My character is a sort of antihero, overly philosophical and vaguely nihilistic paladin, Uldin.

I absolutely despise paladins, so this should be fine.

Anyway, Uldin is a strict (paladin) rule-based utilitarian - his actions follow the rule, "if people took this action instead of this other action in this situation all the time, and everyone else knew that others would take this action, would it make people happier?"

I'm pretty sure that there aren't any gods that actively promote the idea of dynamically determining what is "good" in any specific situation - almost all of them either have set dogma of what is "good," say "do what you think, and if you're a true believer, it'll be good," or don't promote goodness - the concept of a philosophical approach to morality isn't really that big of a thing among gods.
It sort of puts them out of a job, y'see.

So anyway, Uldin is utterly convinced of this philosophy, blah blah blah.
He's convinced of it enough that he can literally make a divine horse appear through sheer force of personal will, with not appeal to outside divinity.


So, what's his position on the gods?

Well, his position is that the gods are all wrong - if they're evil, then they're evil, and if they're chaotic good, they're too reliant on the natural goodness of humans, which is essentially nonexistent.
Lawful good deities are too dependant on concrete scripture to dynamically deal with specific situations.
And any god that claims to promote his beliefs isn't really doing so, because it inherently eschews divine sources of anything.

So, he's not an athiest.
Instead, he says, "all gods are too limited, and none fully promote the truest sense of goodness."


Hmm... I think I had a point there somewhere...

I think it was, there are other options besides athiesm for non-believers.
Or something.

*shrug*


Edit: To be clear, this actually has nothing to do with me and my own beliefs - Uldin and are are quite different.
It's more of a somewhat interesting exploration of the consequences of a world where gods are a direct and obvious "walk the earth" certainty, and how that affects philosophy.

Sorry if it's taken as a reference to real world religion.
Though I'm vaguely curious what Greyhawk deity people would consider an analog to Discoridianism.

Roland St. Jude
2007-01-15, 02:13 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please remember that real world politics and religion are Inappropriate Topics on these boards. This is just a friendly warning to the thread, generally. Thank you.

Dareon
2007-01-15, 03:34 AM
Greyhawk: Zagyg.

Faerun: Gond.

Eberron: The Becoming God, regardless of my actual race.

Insanity and artifice. Blowing things up for fun and profit.

Aimbot
2007-01-15, 04:39 AM
Rao. While in the real world I am an Agnostic, I have no trouble with the idea of role playing a religious type, and I don't really understand why some people hate it.

Ambrogino
2007-01-15, 05:17 AM
No, they in fact have Divine Rank, the essence of godhood, as evidenced by the fact that they have abilities only DvR provides.

And how does the lay-character (as opposed to the player) know that those unique abilities come from Divine Rank, as opposed to an artifact or being an epic-level Mage? They don't. Even epic level spellcraft checks would only show divine rank abilities as coming from the same source as previous divine ranks you have compared to - if you didn't believe it was divine last time, you still won't the next. So whilst a speak-to--dead'ed follower of Tyr will have no doubt that Tyr has protected them from a crappy afterlife that in no way proves Tyr's divinity to someone inclined to doubt it anyway, just Tyr's power.

Whamme
2007-01-15, 05:45 AM
Oh, come off it. In a high-magic world, there are any number of ways to determine the fate of souls in the afterlife. That will show you, in no uncertain terms, that the souls of the wicked are damned to either Baator or the Abyss depending on their ethical alignment (in Oerth's cosmology) and that the souls of those who do not follow the gods are placed into the Wall of the Faithless unless stolen by demons or they agree to pacts with devils (in Toril). That right there should be enough; if it is extortion, it's very convincing extortion.

Now, given some more research, you may come to the conclusion that it is not the gods who did this. When Heironeous found out about the deceptions in the fine print of the Pact Primeval, he wanted to slay Asmodeus but was bound by Law, as in the universal force of it, from doing so. When Torm desperately wanted to remove Gwydion of Cormyr from the City of Strife after Cyric tricked him to his death, he could not do so because Gwydion had been False. If the gods damn people at their whim, could Torm not have simply taken the soul that fancied him and suffered no consequence?

This is even more true in Oerth than Faerun; in Faerun the gods have Ao standing over them imposing all this, but in the Greyhawk setting the alignments, Nature, and several other things are independent universal forces, almost akin to gravity, that even the gods cannot control. It is massively unfair to blame the gods for the existing order of things when they weren't responsible for it.

So why worship such limited, fallible beings?

Edit: As opposed to trying to find your /own/ way to circumvent the hellish deathtrap.

Hallavast
2007-01-15, 05:48 AM
So why worship such limited, fallible beings?
Well, in faerun, if ya don't worship anyone you get chucked onto an innescapable wall of damned souls until oblivion slowly and eventually takes you into it's grip.

Yeah. In faerun, you'd have to be an idiot to not recognize the gods' existance. Worship is a different matter, though. However, unlike in less magical worlds, one can't really say that they don't worship for lack of belief in the gods- just lack of respect.

Stephen_E
2007-01-15, 07:19 AM
This is even more true in Oerth than Faerun; in Faerun the gods have Ao standing over them imposing all this, but in the Greyhawk setting the alignments, Nature, and several other things are independent universal forces, almost akin to gravity, that even the gods cannot control. It is massively unfair to blame the gods for the existing order of things when they weren't responsible for it.

So in short, they're not Gods.

And you also established that worship doesn't always save you.

Now my understanding is (at least in Faerun) that the Gods aren't exactly set in stone for eternity. There were gods in the past that have fallen, and new ones have risen. This suggests that there may be ways of fiddling things to avoid the nasty afterlife. I say this because from my POV (and everyone is entitled to their own POV) the only practical reason given for worshipping a god is to avoid a nasty afterlife. So maybe a group of people can get together and create a communal god that is composed of the god within us all, so we end up saving ourselves from the scummy afterlife.

Stephen

Stephen_E
2007-01-15, 07:24 AM
Rao. While in the real world I am an Agnostic, I have no trouble with the idea of role playing a religious type, and I don't really understand why some people hate it.

My characters usually worship a God, and many are quite devout.

The thread asked the question what God would I worship in Greyhawk (and which quickly spread to Faerun). Not what God I'd have my PC worship.

Stephen

Talya
2007-01-15, 08:35 AM
So why worship such limited, fallible beings?

Edit: As opposed to trying to find your /own/ way to circumvent the hellish deathtrap.

Because Sharess is a (demi-)Goddess of hedonism. Worshipping her entails doing stuff I'd do anyway, and you've gotta think the afterlife of her servants is all sorts of fun.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-15, 08:37 AM
For the same reason that you'd affiliate yourself with a political party.

Dark
2007-01-15, 08:44 AM
Right, but what does it take to worship a being you don't think deserves it? I don't think it's something you can just decide to do. You're more likely to end up as one of the False that way :)

Frosty Flake
2007-01-15, 09:43 AM
Hmmm... what exactly defines 'worship' in this setting? I mean, does every Joe Shmuck have to devote his life to one of the gods in order to keep from getting stuck in a creepy wall? What about something more along the lines of hero worship... like say I recognise the fallibility and limits of Murlynd but also recognise that he is far older and probably a tad bit smarter and wiser for all his wanderings and ponderings and I hold him up as a role-model? Sort of like... If I were to really admire Nikola Tesla, Alan Turing and Boccob but Boccob just happens to be a god so why not pay homage to him, since of the three he actually still exists in some form? I think holding a flawed but heroic figure up as a general guide to how one should act would actually be more desirable (to me) than some greater flawless embodiment of a concept.

Edit

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please remember that real world politics and religion are Inappropriate Topics on these boards. This is just a friendly warning to the thread, generally. Thank you.
Sorry about that.

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-15, 12:44 PM
So in short, they're not Gods.

And you also established that worship doesn't always save you.

Now my understanding is (at least in Faerun) that the Gods aren't exactly set in stone for eternity. There were gods in the past that have fallen, and new ones have risen. This suggests that there may be ways of fiddling things to avoid the nasty afterlife. I say this because from my POV (and everyone is entitled to their own POV) the only practical reason given for worshipping a god is to avoid a nasty afterlife. So maybe a group of people can get together and create a communal god that is composed of the god within us all, so we end up saving ourselves from the scummy afterlife.

Stephen
How does that make them not gods? It makes them not omnipotent, which is not the same thing .

Talyn
2007-01-15, 02:28 PM
I'd worship St. Cuthbert in Greyhawk, and Tyr in Forgotten Realms - but the really, really not-nice version of Tyr. Heck, I could even see myself worshiping Hextor, if that was the culture I grew up in (though going to Hell after I die doesn't look any more appealing in D&D than in the real world). Beating the chaotic into submission is something I can completely get behind.

Justice, honor, truth, and retribution. Tyranny, perhaps, but even tyranny is preferable to anarchy.

Scorpina
2007-01-15, 02:31 PM
I'd worship St. Cuthbert in Greyhawk, and Tyr in Forgotten Realms - but the really, really not-nice version of Tyr. Heck, I could even see myself worshiping Hextor, if that was the culture I grew up in (though going to Hell after I die doesn't look any more appealing in D&D than in the real world). Beating the chaotic into submission is something I can completely get behind.

Justice, honor, truth, and retribution. Tyranny, perhaps, but even tyranny is preferable to anarchy.


Sounds like you'd be better going for Helm, what with his LN alignment and allowance for LE priests, than Tyr, given that Tyr hangs out with Ilmater and is LG...

Matthew
2007-01-15, 03:56 PM
How does that make them not gods? It makes them not omnipotent, which is not the same thing .

This conversation is going to go nowhere unless one of you defines 'God'. I would advise [Scrubbed. I would advise that you all avoid real world religious discussion of any kind. No matter how much you think the conversation would benefit, please refrain. This is the second warning. Next time, I will lock the thread. Thank you.]

[I will assume, having scrubbed out the part above that links this to the real world, that the comments below are discussing D&D.]
Deities are generally worshipped for benefits in this life (fertility, a good harvest, a successful birth, success in battle and so on). Benefits in the afterlife are generally reserved for Mystery Cults and Monotheistic Religions. The fact that it tends not to make cohesive sense is the nature of the beast.

Even Polytheistic and Anamistic religions tend towards 'Great God' theories where one divinity is excessively more powerful than the others. Monotheism and Polytheism are often not as distinct from one another as they outwardly appear to be.

In the case of The Forgotten Realms Ao is a God quite apart from the others. He is probably as different from them as they are from Mortals.

cupkeyk
2007-01-15, 10:40 PM
Darwin would worship Malar, yeah!

I really like Shar; deceit, lies, intrigue, shadows as well as forget and regret. She's like booze. I worship booze.

McDeath
2007-01-16, 01:29 AM
Olidammara. His symbol alone is enough.

Aimbot
2007-01-16, 02:19 AM
Why would you worship a fallible being? Well, because they're still a lot better than you at whatever it is they do. In Faerun worship from a practical standpoint is emulating them and respecting them.

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-16, 03:46 AM
I would just like to point out that if we're not to be allowed to have a frame of reference to work with, this conversation will be utterly fruitless through no fault of any of the participants.

Stephen_E
2007-01-16, 09:06 AM
I would just like to point out that if we're not to be allowed to have a frame of reference to work with, this conversation will be utterly fruitless through no fault of any of the participants.

Actually I don't think we neeed a frame of reference. Obviously some people here (I included) look at the Faerun and Greyhawk "Deities" and say they aren't what we consider to be gods. Therefore we aren't that likely to worship them, and even if we did it would be pretty insincere.

Now equally obvious there are many people here who feel quite happy defining them as true gods. Those people will be quite happy worshipping them, and quite possibly do so sincerely.

Now yes, we could get into a long deiscussion regarding whether one side or the other is right, but
a) It'll just get Roland locking the thread for either getting in a loop, referencing realife religous stuff, or due to insults, and
b) It'll eventually come down to us useing different definitions (and there are two major definition types available on this topic).

Stephen

MrNexx
2007-01-16, 09:15 AM
I'd worship St. Cuthbert in Greyhawk, and Tyr in Forgotten Realms - but the really, really not-nice version of Tyr. Heck, I could even see myself worshiping Hextor, if that was the culture I grew up in (though going to Hell after I die doesn't look any more appealing in D&D than in the real world). Beating the chaotic into submission is something I can completely get behind.

Justice, honor, truth, and retribution. Tyranny, perhaps, but even tyranny is preferable to anarchy.

Have you considered your bright future in the church of Bane? :tongue:

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-16, 09:28 AM
Have you considered your bright future in the church of Bane? :tongue:
If it comes down to choosing between Tyr or Bane as your top two, then something's seriously wrong. :smallbiggrin:

Thomas
2007-01-16, 10:18 AM
Have you considered your bright future in the church of Bane? :tongue:

We offer a great dental plan, and retirement as an immortal banelich. Don't listen to anyone who says workplace competitiveness is an issue... we're all one big happy family!

MrNexx
2007-01-16, 10:21 AM
We offer a great dental plan, and retirement as an immortal banelich. Don't listen to anyone who says workplace competitiveness is an issue... we're all one big happy family!

Workplace competitiveness is not an issue at all. Because you follow orders. Or else.

Telonius
2007-01-16, 10:28 AM
Ah, if we're talking Faerun, not Greyhawk...
Either Sune or Selune. :smallsmile:

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-16, 11:08 AM
We offer a great dental plan, and retirement as an immortal banelich. Don't listen to anyone who says workplace competitiveness is an issue... we're all one big happy family!
Yeah, a dental plan involving getting your teeth knocked out if you screw up. I've seen Imperceptors at work. :smallamused:

Devils_Advocate
2007-01-16, 05:22 PM
Any order is preferable to chaos. And I'd serve as a cleric for St. Cuthbert or Hextor, and I'd make it a goal to destroy Olidammara's following and kill him(her? it?) myself. I hate chaos.
In other words, you hate freedom? :smalleek:


Tyranny, perhaps, but even tyranny is preferable to anarchy.
How so?

Ah, well... At least Trithereon seems to have a lot of support, so I'm not too worried. I haven't read through the whole list, but he seems like a pretty good choice. Perhaps I'd throw my lot in with him.


Actually I don't think we neeed a frame of reference.
It would sort of be helpful to define some terms, though. If you say that the Greyhawk and Faerunian deities "aren't gods", that doesn't really tell me what you actually think unless I know what you mean by "god". It's not even necessary for everyone to agree to and use a common set of definitions -- just for everyone to be clear about which definition they're using. Or, alternately, speak in less vague and ambiguous terms.

Terminology aside, however, I think that this particular issue is largely a matter of whether one feels that the powers are really all that. The Athar (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athar), for example, are strongly of the opinion that the powers ain't all that. Conversely, a priest would surely feel that his particular god, at least, is indeed all that.

Thomas
2007-01-16, 07:19 PM
Yeah, a dental plan involving getting your teeth knocked out if you screw up. I've seen Imperceptors at work. :smallamused:

You weren't using those teeth for the glory of Bane anyway!

knightsaline
2007-01-16, 11:59 PM
who would I worship? depends on the setting

core: pelor. i hate undead. he grants the ability to destroy them (greater turning) AND he is the only god with the sun domain. his 7th level domain spell reminds me of one of the most powerful Grass moves off pokemon

FR: depends on my charas gender. female, its elistree, just for watching her priestesses venerate her. male, tempus. he values strenghth and hates arcane magic

Dragonlance: the 3 gods of magic. it perplexed me that solunari, lunitari and nuitari have no clerics.

homebrew: The Unnamed One. this guy is the creator of the world. he stopped the eternal fight between the sun and the night, stopped the eternal elemental war and created twili, goddess of the twilight and balance. he's unnamed because doing all that stuff stripped him of his name. he was called the son-of-the-right-hand before he was Unnamed. all his belief goes to his place holder, the Omega Thunderstorm.

ebberron: the silver flame. what other religion has an eleven year old girl as pope? maybe i have read the things the worst ebberon party cannot do too many times. that list refers to how the party would love to try and take jaela out of silverkeep and have her in the party. that and her 18 year old paladin twin sister.

Roland St. Jude
2007-01-17, 12:12 AM
I would just like to point out that if we're not to be allowed to have a frame of reference to work with, this conversation will be utterly fruitless through no fault of any of the participants.

Sheriff of Moddingham: Fair enough. What that suggests then, is that this is not a conversation that should take place on the GitP Forum. To the extent that this conversation can be had without reference to real world religion (and some people seem to think it can), carry on. To the extent that people feel it requires some real world reference, please refrain.

Stephen_E
2007-01-17, 02:36 AM
It would sort of be helpful to define some terms, though. If you say that the Greyhawk and Faerunian deities "aren't gods", that doesn't really tell me what you actually think unless I know what you mean by "god". It's not even necessary for everyone to agree to and use a common set of definitions -- just for everyone to be clear about which definition they're using. Or, alternately, speak in less vague and ambiguous terms.

Terminology aside, however, I think that this particular issue is largely a matter of whether one feels that the powers are really all that. The Athar (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athar), for example, are strongly of the opinion that the powers ain't all that. Conversely, a priest would surely feel that his particular god, at least, is indeed all that.

I think I line up more with the Athar.

You could say I have two God definitions -
1) Supreme Being.
2) Creature who gains power from worship.

Type 2 is a sort of "Wannabe God". I can use the term god, but's it's "god" with a small "g" and a smirk. They just don't get my Divine Respect.

Type 1 is so out of my league in terms of conceptualisation that I don't see the point.

Stephen

Thomas
2007-01-17, 04:14 AM
Dragonlance: the 3 gods of magic. it perplexed me that solunari, lunitari and nuitari have no clerics.

That would be because they give arcane, not divine magic. Wizards are the moons' "clerics."

Ambrogino
2007-01-17, 05:17 AM
ebberron: the silver flame. what other religion has an eleven year old girl as pope? maybe i have read the things the worst ebberon party cannot do too many times. that list refers to how the party would love to try and take jaela out of silverkeep and have her in the party. that and her 18 year old paladin twin sister.

How can an 11 year old have a 18 year old twin? And Jaela's only level 3 when she's outside of Silverkeep anyway...

MrNexx
2007-01-17, 08:43 AM
That would be because they give arcane, not divine magic. Wizards are the moons' "clerics."

Actually, in the Tales of the Lance boxed set, they did have clerics, as well.

Thomas
2007-01-17, 09:48 AM
Actually, in the Tales of the Lance boxed set, they did have clerics, as well.

Dragonlance is at least consistent in its inconsistency.

knightsaline
2007-01-17, 05:22 PM
How can an 11 year old have a 18 year old twin? And Jaela's only level 3 when she's outside of Silverkeep anyway...


just don't ask. It was one of those lists that was of what the party was not allowed to do, dictated by a pirate airship captain. the party are obsessed with Jaela. The list included casting invisibility on the female paladins full plate, forcing the apaldin to break her vows, shifters cannot be catgirls or fox girls or bunnygirls, telling the warforged various lies (including my favorite, 5 magical amulets that will allow them to transform into voltron), referring to king kaius as hitler. the list goes on and on.

Jaelas 18 year old twin could have been given a potion that speeds up aging untill she is legally able to make her own decisions.

Parts of the list can be seen here http://knightsaline.livejournal.com/?skip=5