[3.5] Core only Paladin 5/Cleric build help

[MarcusM]

Hello guys

I just got to the game of D&D a couple of months ago and i have to say im so enthralled by this game, the possibilities for adventures and fun with friends.

Now, this is my first campaign in D&D, as is with most of the players taking part in it, as well as the DM's first. We are playing a Core-only campaign (PHB, PHB2, DMG, DMGII and MM).

We were a group of 6. Me playing a human Paladin, a half-elf TWF Ranger (despite my best efforts to make him an archer), a human rogue (TWF also but might change his mind in the process), an elf sorceress, a human cleric and a bard (played by the DM). We all were lvl 2 except the sorc. I was obviously the party's melee compatant, charging ahead with the greatsword.

Unfortunately, the cleric had to leave, now we are 5. That said, and since i realised how underwhelming my class will perform, especially after lvl 5, i tried to convince the DM to either use PrC from various other sources and books (which he declined understandably as he is a novice too, or let me take the Pathfinder variant, which he declined as well). So i am thinking of multiclassing my paladin after lvl 5 (so i can get my mount) to cleric. Ive read all around the net that cleric is far superior to paladin.

SO my build is:

Class : Human Paladin Lvl 2 (Heironeous)

STR 18
DEX 13
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 18

Feats: Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, Cleave (training to get it on lvl 3)

We are in the mid of our second adventure, done a fair bit of combat, battling Sahuagin and their evil elf Priestess who enslaved the people of 2 villages and turned them into some kind of evil fish folk. We probably will get to lvl 3 at the end of it, so i cant take a lvl on a cleric now .

So i am aiming for a melee oriented cleric with emphasis on empowering himself and allies for combat and dealing damage. A little bit of healing of course would be nice since our main healer left.

What are your suggestions guys? Should i abandon the paladin before getting the mount? What feats should i get if i go melee cleric, and what spells? Can you give me the solid choices for feats and spells for each level?

Again only core

Thanks in advance

[Clistenes]

If you were starting from zero, I would recommend a Paladin 3/Cleric 4/Fist of Raziel 10 (Or Paladin 5/Cleric 2/Fist of Raziel 10, if you really, really want the special mount), favoring Wisdom over Charisma.

You should get the Serenity feat so all of your Paladin powers are dependant on Wisdom instead of Charisma. The Intuitive Attack feat (use Wisdom instead of Strength for your Attack Bonus) would help to: You could depend on Wisdom as your most important ability (problem is, this feat only works with Simple Weapons, so your Weapon Focus would be wasted unless you were somewhat allowed to swap it).

If you are willing to burn even more feats to empower your Smite Evil attack, Zen Archery and Ranged Smite could help you to become a divine wisdom-based sniper.

Exorcist of the Silver Flame would be another cool PrC to take afterwards, if you are planning to go into Epic.

BUT...

Since your character already has a very high Charisma and moderate Wisdom, you could take a Charisma-based caster class instead of Cleric, like Spirit Shaman or even Shugenja. Less powerful than a Cleric, but dependant on Charisma and decent healbots and buffers.

[MarcusM]

Thanks for the quick reply, mate.

I have considered Fist of Raziel, since it gives you some cool abilities, improve your smite evil and retains the spell levels, but we are playing a Core-only game (PHB, PHBII, DMG, DMGII and MM) and the Book of Exalted Deeds isnt allowed. Tried to convince the DM otherwise, but since we are all novices, maybe thats for the better.

I am asking if it is a viable option to multiclass to cleric at some point and what kind of feats and spells are better for a melee oriented paladin/cleric

Thanks for the quick reply!!!!:smallsmile:

[Clistenes]

If the other players are playing an optimiced game, you are going to have trouble no matter what you do, I think. You will be five caster levels behind and have relatively low Wisdom.

Practiced Spellcaster could help you with the CL. Holy Mount would help strenghen your mount, if you really want it that bad, but none of those will make you close in power to a "pure" Cleric or to a Fist of Raziel, or even to any other full caster. And I don't think there is a way to increase your Smite Evil power and Cleric Caster level at the same time without taking a PrC (unless there is some obscure feat somewhere that does that).

If your game isn't about powergaming you will be fine. Even a low level Cleric has many useful spells that none of the other characters in your party has, and will be an useful addition to the team.

Another option would be to take Crusader (Tome of Battle) levels instead of Cleric, and you would have a powerful Paladin-like character, but since you have said that you want a Cleric...

[MarcusM]

Thanks again for the very quick reply!!

The only reason i said i want a cleric was because the DM forbade the use of anything except the core books. No Tomes, no Books of...., no Complete, no Pathfinder, nothing. He wanted us to just get a feel of the classes and experience the game We are also novices and this is our first dip into the D&D game and so is the DMs

None of the otehr players are playing an optimized class just taking it as they come, only me and anotehr guy try to find more suitable builds and give advices to others.

My first choice would be to go for the Pathfinder variant, but the DM forbade it since he said he had to implement that to the whole world that he created. Same goes for the fact that he forbade other books, since that would make things more complicated.

I dont mind if im not the best at what i do, i just get the feeling that , as levels pass by, all the other players would have something to long for, and i, as a paladin, wont. Thats why i was searching for a build with a cleric in it. Just some suggestions about feats and spells for a melee oriented paladin ?/ cleric ?

Thanks again for the reply

[GreenETC]

Regardless of the fact that you are doing Core only, a Paladin's mount is already pretty worthless for a regular Paladin, so I would recommend just straight leaving Paladinhood now. You already have Divine Grace, the best feature of the Paladin class, so you can just go into Cleric now and enjoy getting better casting while still keeping all your weapons and armor.

I'd recommend you take the Glory Domain and Inquisition Domain, as they're both pretty nice overall, and the Glory Domain gives you some nice Paladin spells. Of course, depending on your DM, you might not be allowed to because they are Spell Compendium Domains. This leaves you with no really good domains since Heironeous only gets Good, Law, and War, which are all pretty bad. War's the best of the bunch, which will give you Weapon Focus (Longsword). I'd recommend Divine feats too, but I'm not sure if there's much you can get in that department inside core.

Overall, I would definitely recommend going out now, unless you can trade your mount out for Charging Smite from PHBII, which would be one of the best ways to continue being a single classes Paladin, which is not that bad based on the way the rest of the party looks.

[Deliverance]

Since you are all playing core and aren't powergamers as far as I understand it, you'll do fine as a paladin/cleric despite your low wisdom so long as your cleric focus is on buffing and so long as your DM understands balancing his campaigns to match the party.

It may even be more fun for the group than having a dedicated pure cleric stealing the show, as clerics are probably the easiest class to do exceptionally well with for inexperienced players compared to other classes.

Since you seem to be more concerned with having fun and doing well now and the foreseeable future rather than potential power at very high levels (that a group of inexperienced players may not reach at all unless the DM only throws easily winnable challenges at you), I do suggest that you consider either going cleric from paladin 3 for more cleric power at the cost of losing out on the mount or from paladin 6 rather than changing from paladin 5.

Paladin 6 brings you +1 BAB and +1 fort/reflex/will save as well as remove disease 1/week (and a single paladin-spell list spell). Yes, it delays the cleric spell levels even further so doesn't belong in any sort of optimized build with an eye to the long term, but since your stated intention is to be a tank with buffing rather than focused on spellcasting, better attacks and saves are very nice to have. The remove disease is something you'd only get at level 10 with a paladin5/cleric 5 and even a single use is pretty nice if the DM throws the occasional disease-causing creature or trap at you - but it is also completely superflous if you habitually run around with potions to cure disease or the DM doesn't challenge you with nasty diseases.

Then again, it depends a heck of a lot of just what sort of D&D adventures/campaign your DM runs. While I think that paladin 6/cleric describes what you seek best, it should be noted that the more he emphasizes combat over roleplaying and the more he allows you to have easy access to magic items, the less important your paladin levels will be to you during the mid-levels and teens when compared to your cleric levels. If he's running a "roleplaying games is all about combat prowess" campaign, you probably should stop at paladin 3 and stick closely to the feats improving combat abilities. As an example, the paladin mount you are dreaming of can be anything from nearly worthless to (if you'll pardon the joke) a godsend, depending on whether your DM makes adventures in which having an intelligent mount is an advantage or not. If you are only going to be using it as a legged motorcycle for getting around, why not stick with a regular mount and fewer paladin levels instead?

[MarcusM]

Thanks Green for the advice!!

About the mount, i was consulting with the DM about taking something that i can bring into dungeons, such as a bear or something. Actually that was the only thing that might make me stick with the paladin till lvl 5. A bear with a spellcasting paladin on top would be nice in a dungeon (at least in my mind).

The DM and i spoke about my multiclassing and argued that i wouldnt be too much of a fighter if i go cleric since i get worst BAB. I said that i would cover that with the spells that i would cast. Anyway, we are both novices in this so dont mind us :smallredface: I'll try to change his mind on Spell Compendium, it will give our rangers some buffs too

As. for Divinve Feats, the PHBII has Divine Armor/Focus/Justice/Ward, Profane Aura, Sacred Healing/Purification/Radiance. Divine Armor seems nice to me, also Sacred Radiance.
What about metamagic feats (not divine metamagic, i know its not allowed :smallbiggrin:)?

Also what about spells? should i get spells that empower me and my allies and then charge to battle or focus on inflict spells and the like?

[Urpriest]

but we are playing a Core-only game (PHB, PHBII, DMG, DMGII and MM)

By the way, thanks for listing this. Way too many new posters assume that Core means a particular thing, when really everyone has a different book list in mind.

Anyway, since you've only got two levels of Paladin now, I'd say it's your best chance to switch out to Cleric. You've got the best abilities you can get out of Paladin, and the Mount of a Paladin 5 is not worth being 3 levels behind in Cleric. Especially with Cha 18, Divine Grace is going to justify your Paladin levels, and more Paladin will just give you things you could have gotten as a Cleric anyway.

Don't worry too much about Wis 14. By the time you can cast 5th level spells, you'll be level 12 and have Wis 17 if you've been putting points into it every chance you get. You'll get 9th level spells at level 19, by which point you should be able to afford a Periapt of Wisdom to cover any remaining gap and then some.

You've got a decent feat setup at the moment. I would only get Cleave if you find yourself taking down enemies in one hit often, and I wouldn't ever get Great Cleave unless your DM really really loves hordes of goblins. Quicken will eventually be nice, but that's a long way down the line. Since you don't have access to Divine Metamagic, focus on long-duration buff spells and battlefield control spells, with the occasional rounds/level buff cast at the beginning of combat. There aren't a ton of cool feats for you in PHBII, but consider some of the Divine feats there, since your high Cha gives you lots of turning attempts. Divine Ward and Sacred Healing might be of interest if your party really needs you to heal, though in general preventing damage is more valuable than healing it.

Edit: Medium BAB shouldn't be a big problem for you, you've got the two Paladin levels helping out, and it's the same BAB as Rogues get so it's not so bad for a melee character.

For spells, you want to focus on things that don't offer saves, but rather change the battle around you. Obscuring Mist is a useful one at the low levels to stop ranged attackers and protect your party, though it has the disadvantage of making it harder for you to land hits. It doesn't affect many of your Sorceror's spells, though, area spells in particular are unaffected.

[Deliverance]

Regardless of the fact that you are doing Core only, a Paladin's mount is already pretty worthless for a regular Paladin, so I would recommend just straight leaving Paladinhood now. You already have Divine Grace, the best feature of the Paladin class, so you can just go into Cleric now and enjoy getting better casting while still keeping all your weapons and armor.

While mechanically you are right, if the entire point is to minimize the use of his paladin levels by only getting the abilities that directly benefit him so as to get maximum cleric goodness, why not just have him reroll a cleric?

Let him at least get to level 3 for the aura of courage; A character which incorporates the paladin class should be a team player. :)

[GreenETC]

Also, pick up a Wand of Cure Light Wounds. One of the biggest pits for a Cleric to fall into is in-combat healing and wasting all their spells on it. This eventually becomes horrible, as damage becomes too great to counteract in a meaningful way, as I am currently witnessing in a game I'm playing where we just hit level 6 and the enemies are routinely bringing players to almost no health if they successfully land full attacks, and the cleric can't keep up.

As Ur-priest mentioned, you're not really losing much, as Clerics are already basically the best melee class in the game, and the spells they get help make up for it. You need to be careful with your spells though, since most Cleric spells are not very combat oriented. However, as a Cleric, you know every spell on the Cleric list, so if any new spells get opened up or you need a new set for a different enemy, you can easily be ready by tomorrow. For Divine Feats, I'd really recommend the one that gives you +4 to your next save, as with your Charisma and the Cleric multiclassing you'll have saves out the ass, but failing is never worth risking if you know it's something bad, like a Dominate.

While mechanically you are right, if the entire point is to minimize the use of his paladin levels by only getting the abilities that directly benefit him so as to get maximum cleric goodness, why not just have him reroll a cleric?

Let him at least get to level 3 for the aura of courage; A character which incorporates the paladin class should be a team player. :)
Sure he could re-roll, but that'd be less fun, as he'd lose his established character, which is a bit of a bummer. There's nothing wrong with 2 Paladin levels, as that's the standard amount on the resident Sorcadin gish build, and +4 to all saves is nothing to shy away from. Plus, Aura of Courage/Divine Health are pretty bad, as they give marginal benefits.

[Urpriest]

As Ur-priest mentioned, you're not really losing much, as Clerics are already basically the best melee class in the game, and the spells they get help make up for it. You need to be careful with your spells though, since most Cleric spells are not very combat oriented. However, as a Cleric, you know every spell on the Cleric list, so if any new spells get opened up or you need a new set for a different enemy, you can easily be ready by tomorrow. For Divine Feats, I'd really recommend the one that gives you +4 to your next save, as with your Charisma and the Cleric multiclassing you'll have saves out the ass, but failing is never worth risking if you know it's something bad, like a Dominate.

It's a cool feat, but I'd save it for later if at all. This guy's saves are good enough that they'll hold up on their own for quite some time.

[MarcusM]

Again thank you for your advice guys, really appreciate it.

As i said in my previous post, we are in the mid of our adventure right now and , since the DM counts the XP at the end of each adventure, rather than the end of a fight, i cant justify multiclassing now. I have to roleplay it first.

Also im sticking with Cleave for 2 reasons: first because, the DM wants us to be training what we are about to get and ive been training Cleave for 2 levels now. Second, because all of our fights now has been with hordes of goblins, kobolds and Sahuagin and since i am mostly using charge and a Greatsword, most of them fall on one hit (i've also been pretty lucky with roll, if i'm honest:smalltongue:). It would be great if i could kill one or two before the rest of them go for the sorc or the rogue. I wouldnt be using it on higher level mobs later, of course, but its still pretty useful early on, i believe.

[Urpriest]

Again thank you for your advice guys, really appreciate it.

As i said in my previous post, we are in the mid of our adventure right now and , since the DM counts the XP at the end of each adventure, rather than the end of a fight, i cant justify multiclassing now. I have to roleplay it first.


Your argument for Cleave makes sense for your particular context. This, though, is not something you need to worry about. Cleric and Paladin have the exact same roleplaying, they're holy warriors devoted to their god. If you had been planning to multiclass to Cleric, you would have been roleplaying the exact same way you were as a pure Paladin, so there's no continuity issue.

Anyway, reading through the PHBII, I think you'll enjoy using Blade of Blood for when you do go up against high-hp boss monsters.