Alternative to Warblade?

[Chester]

Thinking of my next 3.5 character. I wanted to be a Warblade, but DM ruled that it's "broken".

What other classes might I consider? Basically, I'm always a spellcaster, so I want to do something different. I liked the Warblade because it's a fighter that does cool stuff. I want to deal damage, but I don't want to be a plain fighter or barbarian.

[Sian]

Psionic Warrior?

[John Longarrow]

Crusader?

Alternately go the "Massive ability and saves" route with
Barbarian-1
Fighter-1
Ranger-1
Fighter-2
DuskBlade-1 (Take the abjurant spell, can't remember the name. one round shield)
DuskBlade-2 (Feat Combat Casting)
<< Possibly a level in Wizard >>
Abjurant Champion-1 through 5
Spellsword-1
If you grabbed Dodge, Iron will, and 2 ranks in tumble, DragonSlayer - 1

About this point you should NEVER fail a fort save and your will should be decent. You can play around a bit for better reflex.

You should have a lot of odds and ends you can do also, so you shouldn't feel left out outside of combat.

[Studoku]

Crusader's the other fighter with nice things from ToB, but I assume that's banned too. I can't fathom a reason someone would ban one and not the other.

Cleric could be an interesting option. Just play it as a warrior who uses spells to buff his fighting rather than as a caster.

If psionics is allowed, psychic warrior is fun.

[Katana1515]

Well for a fighter character with more options my vote would probably go for Psy Warrior as well though depending on book access something like a Totemist or a Non Chaotic Incarnate might fit the bill? Played right they provide plenty of close combat punch while giving plenty of access to the Utility abilities you are probably used to having as a caster. final suggestion might be warlock focused on using Eldritch Claws or Eldritch Glaive? A friend played that style of character last year and it kicked ass, tons of at will utility and unusual in combat options beyond "i full attack" while maintaining the ability to lay out the pain up close.

[Telonius]

Thinking of my next 3.5 character. I wanted to be a Warblade, but DM ruled that it's "broken".

What other classes might I consider? Basically, I'm always a spellcaster, so I want to do something different. I liked the Warblade because it's a fighter that does cool stuff. I want to deal damage, but I don't want to be a plain fighter or barbarian.

I'm tempted to say "Show him how broken a core-only Druid can be," but that would be mean. So, you want to be a decent melee'er with a DM who thinks Warblade is cheesy.

First off, what's the rest of your group playing?

The PHB2 variant Druid might be interesting. Focus on the combat, not the spells. A lockdown fighter or a Horizon Tripper could be fun. Warlocks are loads of fun too, without being anywhere near overpowered.

[Gemini476]

...What was that prestige class from Miniatures Handbook that was pretty much only useful in campaigns where ToB classes are banned?
Tactical Soldier?
It was in one of the old Iron Chef contests before. I remember that the winner was a (Dragonborn?) Necropolitan Samurai/Dragon Samurai/Tactical Soldier, or something similar.

Or if you want to play a boring-but-powerful build then go for an übercharger/chain tripper.

Or if you just want a martial class but don't mind not being a "Fighty" class then you could play a TWF Rogue, I suppose.

Also, Raptoran Dungeon Crasher Fighter is hilarious. BULL RUSH THEM INTO THE GROUND FOR +8d6+3*STR DAMAGE. If you go Lawful Evil you can take Zentarim Fighter as well to get some Out-of-Combat utility in the form of intimidation, as well.

Oh, and if you're good at optimizing you might be able to make a Monk into something usable. Go Dark Moon Disciple, Holy Monk, Invisible Fist... Pretty much replace all of your standard class features with actually usable ones. There's one that replaces Slow Fall with wallrunning, another that lets you turn invisible for 1 round every 3 rounds...

Ranger can be good from level 6+ if you go Wildshaping Ranger, I suppose.

Also, plain Barbarian is boring. Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian is pretty awesome, what with +1 attack and Pounce.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What level are you starting at? Are there any particular books that you aren't able to use?


Consider Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ Warshaper 4/ Nature's Warrior 1/ MoMF 3, get Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Alertness, Leap Attack, Frozen Wild Shape, Robilar's Gambit, and Defensive Sweep. Get a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power, and prepare Rhino's Rush in whatever Ranger spell slots you get. Wear a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp (MIC) and an Enhancement bonus to Strength added (MIC p234). Wear Armbands of Might (MIC) with a Wilding Clasp (MIC) and an Enhancement bonus to Dex added (MIC p234). Wild Shape into a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) or a Cave Troll (MM3) or a War Troll (MM3) or a 12-headed Cryohydra via Frozen Wild Shape which allows you to make 12 bites on an AoO, including from Robilar's Gambit.


You could go with a Fighter and make use of all the various options available. For example, get the Dungeoncrasher alternate class feature in Dungeonscape, the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels, and free bonuses (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a). Go with a large race (Half-Ogre in RoD or Water Orc Half-Minotaur if Dragon magazine is permitted or just Goliath (RoS) will work), get Dreadful Wrath (PGtF), Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knock-Back (RoS), Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), Imperious Command (DotU), EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Defensive Sweep (PH2), and maybe start working on the prerequisites for Weapon Supremacy (PH2) after all of those. Be sure to get the Never Outnumbered skill trick (CS), and check out the Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) to understand why Zhentarim Soldier + Imperious Command + Dreadful Wrath is good.

[Chester]

First off, what's the rest of your group playing?

LOL, don't know yet. The plan is to play our current characters until we're bored, around level 14-15. The next campaign takes place years later, with our characters' actions affecting the status of the world.

We don't tell each other what we're playing. The idea is to play what you want. If we have 5 warlocks, then that's what we have. :smallbiggrin:

[Doc_Maynot]

If you want a nice int based class that can do some neat things, try factotum 8/chameleon 10/Whatever 2 OR just factotum 20.

[Psyren]

I would do Totemist 20 or Factotum 20, no multiclassing should alleviate his fears about power.

[hamishspence]

...What was that prestige class from Miniatures Handbook that was pretty much only useful in campaigns where ToB classes are banned?
Tactical Soldier?
It was in one of the old Iron Chef contests before. I remember that the winner was a (Dragonborn?) Necropolitan Samurai/Dragon Samurai/Tactical Soldier, or something similar.


It was called Marshal.

[Gemini476]

It was called Marshal.

Nah, it was Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214198). Here's the winner of that competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11872314&postcount=227).
On closer examination the PrC itself is pretty bad, which really shouldn't surprise me.

[hamishspence]

Sorry, I wasn't looking closely and didn't spot the "prestige" bit.

The Marshal did seem to me like a much weaker prototype for TOB White Raven school.

[Chester]

I'm tempted to say "Show him how broken a core-only Druid can be," but that would be mean.

Hmmm....and how does one break a Druid, aside from Natural Spell? :smallconfused:

[Gemini476]

Hmmm....and how does one break a Druid, aside from Natural Spell? :smallconfused:

Well, the near-optimal build would be Druid 20. Planar Shepherd would probably be the optimal build, but that's also horribly cheesy.

Dump Str, Con and Dex. You don't need them while wildshaped. Your animal Companion is probably a better fighter than the Fighter, you can Summon Natures Ally spontaneously, and if necessary just fly up above the battlefield and play orbital artillery with Battlefield Control spells.

Or, for the classic example, become a Bear riding a Dire Bear while summoning Bears.

If you need equipment while wildshaped, get some Wildling Clasps from the MIC.

Oh, and the Fleshraker does a lot of damage, can Pounce, and poisons. Yeah. You'll want to replace it with some bigger beasties later, but still.

And at higher levels you can turn into a 12-headed Cryohydra with 12 attacks on an AoO. A-yup.

[eggynack]

Hmmm....and how does one break a Druid, aside from Natural Spell? :smallconfused:
By being a druid, generally. You're a spell caster with a full and meaty list. That in and of itself is enough to make you one of the most powerful characters in the game. The core spell list is quite a bit worse than it gets out of core in some places, particularly at second level spells, but it's about as good in other places, like third level spells. You also have wild shaping, which is highly synergistic with casting in general (flying where enemies are not is great when you're doing your thing at range), and an animal companion, which gives you a free meat shield, a kill condition when your spells provide inevitability, and a target for your buff spells (you're not as good a target for your own buffs). I mean, I could say more stuff, but I have a hell of a lot of stuff to say on the matter. Like, 26,605 words worth at this point. Druids are ridiculously dense like that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Druid Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0)

Note that Wild Shape changed in the PHB Errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a), its current wording (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) emulates Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) and you do need a decent Con score.

Get Natural Spell (PHB) at 6th level, it is not optional.

Get Natural Bond (CV) at 1st or 3rd level, as soon as you hit 4th level dismiss your current animal companion and get a 'level -3' companion. The bonus from Natural Bond negates that drawback and you can still apply your full Druid level toward its benefits. Make it a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) or a Dire Eagle (RoS). Cast (Lesser Rod of Extended) Enrage Animal (SC) to buff it.

Take Ashbound (ECS) and/or Greenbound Summoning (LEoF) and/or Augment Summoning (PHB) and/or Rashemi Elemental Summoning (UE) and work on getting a Ring of the Beast (CC) if you want to be able to summon minions so powerful that it trivializes every encounter.

Get a few Lesser Rods of Extend (DMG) and use them to cast Creeping Cold (SC) to damage opponents, Sleet Storm (PHB) to hinder opponents, and they're also useful for buffs (Longstrider, Barkskin, Bull's Strength, etc.).

Use Summon Nature's Ally to get a Unicorn instead of casting healing spells. Get a Wand of Lesser Vigor (SC) to heal the party between encounters.

[Kennisiou]

Honestly, as someone who was introduced to Tome and Battle long before I learned how to, like, actually power-game I can say I see where your DM is coming from. Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage are definitely not as powerful as Wizard, Druid, Cleric or even Sorceror, but the way the rules for playing as a maneuver using character are written (especially Crusader) it's not hard to optimally play them as the rules for how they work kind of just describe optimal play. I mean I've hap people pick up tome and battle who weren't major power gamers and build really solid maneuver classes right away. Because everything they do is combat focused it doesn't take a lot to see what the powerful maneuvers are, whereas I've had players swear up and down that spells like soften earth or minor image are "worthless" because they can't think of any creative uses for them.

With that in mind, I think that "showing the DM up" by playing a power-gamed Druid to prove to him that Warblade isn't broken (even though "power-gamed Druid" just consists of "Druid that took Natural Spell at l6"). If the DM thinks that he won't be able to produce effective challenges for a Warblade or that the Warblade will overshadow the party and doesn't want you to play him for that reason (the only logical reason to restrict "broken" classes) then playing a class that's even harder to produce effective challenges for that will overshadow the rest of the party even more is really not the solution here.

If you're looking for classes that aren't as powerful as Warblade but are still solid in melee, Barbarian, Fighter, and Hexblade are all solid options, as is a Rogue that splashes some levels in Fighter or Swashbuckler for more HP. If you go Barbarian, avoid some of the pitfalls that lots of players make. Avoid dumping Cha because a lot of the best build paths for Barbarian involve heavy use of the intimidate skill, thanks to Intimidating Rage combining nicely with Imperious Command. Int and Wis are less important for Barbs but dumping either too hard will be a problem. Because of these reasons as well as bonus feats, Human Barbs are often much better than Orc or Half-Orc ones. Fighter is all about your feat paths, but generally focusing on shenanigans with Spiked Chains is one of the optimal Fighter build paths (knock-down, improved size spiked chains, and massive reach can make optimal Figthers pretty scary). Hexblade is hard to optimize because there's not a lot of stuff that's gamerule specific to them. Tome of Magic bindings and their feats are apparently pretty good on some Hexblade builds, as is swapping out their familiar for the Dark Companion in PHB II.

[Xerlith]

I would say that Duskblade deals damage quite well, but it's a bit caster-y.
Also, what you want is basically to play a gish. But if Warblade's got banned... Um, do you have wizards in your party?

(Intuitive Attack, Serenity) Paladin/Monk/Sacred Fist, for tier 4 hilarity? Pump wisdom, have everything? :smalltongue:

Jokes aside, maybe a Psychic Warrior could be a good choice. Either that or a classic Ranger/Psion/Slayer.

[Chester]

With that in mind, I think that "showing the DM up" by playing a power-gamed Druid to prove to him that Warblade isn't broken . . . then playing a class that's even harder to produce effective challenges for that will overshadow the rest of the party even more is really not the solution here.

Yeah, I'm not necessarily doing that . . . just thinking a Druid might be viable . . .



Jokes aside, maybe a Psychic Warrior could be a good choice. Either that or a classic Ranger/Psion/Slayer.

Good idea, as Multiclassing / PrCing gives me those options.

[johnbragg]

I have a homebrew that I'd like to see road-tested, if you want to play a divine warrior. (The idea was to create something Tier 3-or-less for the guy who wants to play a Cleric and doesn't want to learn the "new" classes.)

Warrior-Pseudocleric.
(Obviously give it a cooler name, but that's deity specific.)
Take the DMG/SRD Warrior (d20 HD, Full BAB, all weapons and armor, good Fort save) and
Add Turn/Rebuke Undead (as PHB Cleric)
Add domain spells--and only domain spells--as PHB/SRD Cleric.
In my design, you get four domains instead of two, and yes pick Healing.

Possible tweaks:.
1. Ask for a good Will save, too.
2. Number of domains. 2? 3? 4?
3. Maybe instead of turning undead being 3+ CHA per day, you have to burn a spell.

[John Longarrow]

Take the DMG/SRD Warrior (d20 HD, Full BAB, all weapons and armor, good Fort save) and


D20 HD??? OK, I think I'd have fun with that.
First level get 22HP, then average 10.5 per level + con...

I'm guessing you intended D10?

Of course, would be fun!!!

[Gemini476]

D20 HD??? OK, I think I'd have fun with that.
First level get 22HP, then average 10.5 per level + con...

I'm guessing you intended D10?

Of course, would be fun!!!

At least it doesn't have a familiar.

Honestly though, wouldn't the Adept work as a T4 Cleric? Gestalt it with Warrior or Paladin and you basically have the same abilities.

[johnbragg]

D20 HD??? OK, I think I'd have fun with that.
First level get 22HP, then average 10.5 per level + con...

I'm guessing you intended D10?

Of course, would be fun!!!

Yes, that was a typo--the Warrior-Pseudocleric would get d10 hit dice, not d20. EDIT--actually the NPC Warrior gets d8, so the Warrior-Pseuocleric would get d8.



At least it doesn't have a familiar.

Honestly though, wouldn't the Adept work as a T4 Cleric? Gestalt it with Warrior or Paladin and you basically have the same abilities.

If the DM is giving Warblade the stinkeye, I don't think asking for a "gestalt" character is going to fly. And the OP said:


I liked the Warblade because it's a fighter that does cool stuff. I want to deal damage, but I don't want to be a plain fighter or barbarian.

So I don't think he wants to play an Adept gestalt anyway.

But the Warrior-Pseudocleric has a Pseudocleric-Adept counterpart. Take the same Pseudocleric benefits the NPC warrior gets and add them to the Adept.

The Warrior-Pseudocleric is for folks who want to play clerics like Durkon--they get to be very good in melee, plus use a few flashy spells per day. The Pseudocleric-Adept is for players who say "why exactly does my cleric of Ishtar wear plate mail and smack ogres with a mace?" (Of course, those players are more willing to play newfangled classes anyway.)

[Endarire]

Hi Welcome (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9724.0) - This is one of the most powerful Druid builds available. Add Planar Shepherd to make it even more powerful!

Mind you, this is probably better off as theory, but it's certainly more powerful than the average Warblade. (Now if that Warblade is a Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462.0), things may get closer. The Druid still probably wins.)

[eggynack]

Hi Welcome (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9724.0) - This is one of the most powerful Druid builds available. Add Planar Shepherd to make it even more powerful!

The interpretation that you can get a large fleshraker through the advancement rules is... dubious at best.

[Tvtyrant]

Master of Many Forms into a Wartroll or Dusk Giant, smash the flickies.

[magwaaf]

play pathfinder and use a greatsword figher build.

[magwaaf]

everyone else had ridiculous posts. i wanted to help

seriously tho play a barbarian/tempest, it really helps witht he dual wield. i played one in a campaign a few years back and it was alot of fun

[bandizzle]

Soulknife is pretty cool. Also thief/acrobat was the most fun rogue type I have ever played. Kip up(standing up without provoking attacks of opportunity)was the bane of that DM... tripping was his favorite thing to do. Oh and also trying to sunder all your equipment.

Also I don't agree warblade is broken, swordsage is even more powerful imho

[Big Fau]

play pathfinder and use a greatsword figher build.


everyone else had ridiculous posts. i wanted to help

seriously tho play a barbarian/tempest, it really helps witht he dual wield. i played one in a campaign a few years back and it was alot of fun

How does that help? That's vastly inferior to the Warblade, and the OP has decided on Druid (at least I think; if he did then I'd highly doubt he'd want to use PF at all due to the Druid nerfs, minor though they may be).

[Ruethgar]

Whirling Frenzy City Brawler Dashing Step Lion Spirit Barbarian 1/Shapeshift Rejuvenation Druid 1/Pugilist Fighter 4/Totemist 2/Fist of the Forest 1

This is a Con intensive build so a Dragonborn Mongrel is suggested. The barbarian is a laundry list, but I am fairly certain none of it conflicts. Armor and weapon loss from brawler, trap sense less from dashing step, fast movement from spirit lion, whirling frenzy rage. Druid is a constant +4 natural armor and strength as well as a bite, a speed boost and minor healing for a 1 level dip. From the fighter levels grab Iron Jaw and Shake it Off to reduce all damage taken by your con. Totemist synchronizes well with a totem worshiping barbarian and a druid as well as making con ever more potent a stat apart from your rage and resilience. FotF is just icing with con to AC. Do not become immune to non-lethal damage, flying books will ensue.

From there it is up to you what you want to focus on. Martial Chaos Monk is a much better version of monk and a 2 level dip for evasion and two fighter feats is always a plus. Frostrager could also be nice.

[Coidzor]

Crusader's the other fighter with nice things from ToB, but I assume that's banned too. I can't fathom a reason someone would ban one and not the other.

Cleric could be an interesting option. Just play it as a warrior who uses spells to buff his fighting rather than as a caster.

If psionics is allowed, psychic warrior is fun.

Hatred of Paladins while also harboring one of those weird stockholm syndrome things for Fighters?

CoDZilla, even.

King of Smack, even.