How To Min-Max Roleplaying

[MinMax Hardcore]

Basically how to benefit something that's not written in RAW.

We all can make an OP character with feats and stats wise, but
nobody thought of taking Profession(lock smithing) to open locks.
Get the picture?

We all know it it heavily depend on the DM, but if you can sell the
idea to him, then you can use it.

Now let's think how to Min-Max Roleplaying and maybe make
a list of them.

[Curmudgeon]

Check: You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems.
Is burgling a castle a "daily task" or "common problem"?

I only see this as working with an especially accommodating DM.

[Deaxsa]

Basically how to benefit something that's not written in RAW.

We all can make an OP character with feats and stats wise, but
nobody thought of taking Profession(lock smithing) to open locks.
Get the picture?

We all know it it heavily depend on the DM, but if you can sell the
idea to him, then you can use it.

Now let's think how to Min-Max Roleplaying and maybe make
a list of them.

Well, there's the idea that your during your past you did EVERYTHING, maybe you're even royalty? i have had both things happen. There are the players that try to find a reason for why their characters are, In Character, doing things that contradict their codes of conduct, as to why THIS exception to their M.O. makes sense (as well as all the others).

[MinMax Hardcore]

I only see this as working with an especially accommodating DM.

That's the big down side.

The rogue can the only one that can use lock pick.
Almost every class can be train in Profession.
So if a paladin is train in Profession(lock making),
he should be able to lock pick them because he knows how
to take them apart and put it back together.

Now to think of a Profession for Disable Device.

Now to min-max roleplaying with items that doesn't give
any game effect like a fishing hook(who buys this, anyway?).

[Flickerdart]

That's the big down side.

The rogue can the only one that can use lock pick.
Almost every class can be train in Profession.
So if a paladin is train in Profession(lock making),
he should be able to lock pick them because he knows how
to take them apart and put it back together.

Now to think of a Profession for Disable Device.

Now to min-max roleplaying with items that doesn't give
any game effect like a fishing hook(who buys this, anyway?).
I'm afraid that's not actually how the rules work. A Profession check can only be used for getting income, unless additional rules exist (such as for Profession: Siege Engineer). A character who has Profession: Locksmith but no ranks in Open Lock might know how to, for instance, operate a key grinding machine (like one you'd see in Home Depot, except replace technology with magic) and make a living by duplicating keys.

[MinMax Hardcore]

A character who has Profession: Locksmith but no ranks in Open Lock might know how to, for instance, operate a key grinding machine (like one you'd see in Home Depot, except replace technology with magic) and make a living by duplicating keys.

So a locksmith needs to take Open Lock skill to open a lock without
the key to it even though he knows how that lock works inside out?

How to min-max roleplay a blanket.

1. Make Fighter throw 15ft wide and 15ft long blanket on enemy.
2. Enemy sight is now blocked.
3. Rogue use move silent and sneak attacks enemy.
4. ???
5. Watch as DM gets mad as his BBEG gets taken down by a blanket.
6. Bonus if you animated the blanket.

Edit:


I'm afraid that's not actually how the rules work.

It's roleplaying, screw the rules. On the first post, I clearly state
"how to benefit from roleplaying that's not written in RAW"

[johnbragg]

So a locksmith needs to take Open Lock skill to open a lock without
the key to it even though he knows how that lock works inside out?

How to min-max roleplay a blanket.

1. Make Fighter throw 15ft wide and 15ft long blanket on enemy.
That's an untrained weapon, so it's a touch attack at -4 to hit. reference any penalties on using oversized weapons. (Where do you even get a 15 x 15 blanket?) If you make the roll, it works.


2. Enemy sight is now blocked.
Yes, it is.


3. Rogue use move silent and sneak attacks enemy.

I'd say he's definitely denied his Dex bonus to AC, however he does have partial concealment, so oh let's say -2 to hit. Go for it.



4. ???
5. Watch as DM gets mad as his BBEG gets taken down by a blanket.
6. Bonus if you animated the blanket.

If it's an Animated Blanket, then the BBEG is taking d6 damage. But the blanket does get an Attack of Opportunity on the rogue, though.

[Helcack]

1. Have your characters background be that they are the prince's secret lover(easy for it to be secret if you go with the whole medieval thing and your character is male/not a human/both and easy for it to be plausible if you have high diplomacy, charisma, and profession(courtisan))
2. ???
3. Profit

[MagnusExultatio]

That's the big down side.

The rogue can the only one that can use lock pick.
Almost every class can be train in Profession.
So if a paladin is train in Profession(lock making),
he should be able to lock pick them because he knows how
to take them apart and put it back together.

Now to think of a Profession for Disable Device.

Now to min-max roleplaying with items that doesn't give
any game effect like a fishing hook(who buys this, anyway?).

Profession (Omnicapable Adventurer). Done.

The premise of your topic doesn't make sense anyways, since it amounts to "how do we exploit GM fiat and houserules?"

[MinMax Hardcore]

The premise of your topic doesn't make sense anyways, since it amounts to "how do we exploit GM fiat and houserules?"

Pretty much. If it's not in RAW(or even in RAW), DM decides how
that effect happen.

A poster above me show me how to use a blanket as a weapon.
RAW never tells us how to use a blanket as a weapon.
Clearly the benefit is worth it as you can make AoO on the
enemy as he moves and continuing to block his line of sight
as he moves.

Now attempted to make a blanket fighter.

[Raven777]

"how do we exploit GM fiat and houserules?"

Any way we can?

[Ruethgar]

A city brawler barbarian only takes -2 for improvised weapon(which a blanket is). Could make it his safety blanket, after he throws it he goes into a rage until he gets it back.

[Red Fel]

Pretty much. If it's not in RAW(or even in RAW), DM decides how
that effect happen.

A poster above me show me how to use a blanket as a weapon.
RAW never tells us how to use a blanket as a weapon.
Clearly the benefit is worth it as you can make AoO on the
enemy as he moves and continuing to block his line of sight
as he moves.

Now attempted to make a blanket fighter.

But this, I think, is the point.

You're basically asking "How can I get an accommodating GM to let me do something the rules would not otherwise let me do?"

Answer: Have an accommodating GM who lets people do things the rules don't ordinarily let you do.

If you don't have that, you don't get away with what you're asking. Period, full-stop. This isn't a case of, "Well, I came up with a really good non-RAW reason, so you should let me do it." Because even if you came up with a good reason that was RAW-compliant, your GM is not obligated to allow it (although he generally should); even moreso if the RAW does not support your action.

I must be missing the point of the thread. Find a GM who will accommodate your antics. Mission accomplished.

[MinMax Hardcore]

A city brawler barbarian only takes -2 for improvised weapon(which a blanket is). Could make it his safety blanket, after he throws it he goes into a rage until he gets it back.

What happens if you make a blanket light enough for
the barbarian to throw, but too heavy for somebody to
lift themselves out of the blanket? Instant Win.

[Slipperychicken]

1. Make Fighter throw 15ft wide and 15ft long blanket on enemy.

2. DM treats it as an Improvised Net attack with oversized weapon penalties.

3. It might work anyway.

[Urpriest]

Pretty much. If it's not in RAW(or even in RAW), DM decides how
that effect happen.


Just letting you know, that's not roleplaying. There are definitely ways to Min-Max roleplaying, and they have nothing to do with what you're thinking of.

[MinMax Hardcore]

Just letting you know, that's not roleplaying. There are definitely ways to Min-Max roleplaying, and they have nothing to do with what you're thinking of.

Well let's hear it. I'm all open ears.

[TuggyNE]

So a locksmith needs to take Open Lock skill to open a lock without
the key to it even though he knows how that lock works inside out?

Yep. How else do you think Rogues use Open Lock? They have to know how the lock works!


It's roleplaying, screw the rules. On the first post, I clearly state
"how to benefit from roleplaying that's not written in RAW"

This sounds like "how do I munchkin'd shamelessly?" :smallannoyed: Please, prove this unpleasant suspicion wrong.

[Story]

Would that be something like Old Man Henderson?

[Equinox]

Basically how to benefit something that's not written in RAW.

We all can make an OP character with feats and stats wise, but
nobody thought of taking Profession(lock smithing) to open locks.That's because there already is a skill to open locks. Appropriately enough, it's called Open Lock.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

1. Have your characters background be that they are the prince's secret lover(easy for it to be secret if you go with the whole medieval thing and your character is male/not a human/both and easy for it to be plausible if you have high diplomacy, charisma, and profession(courtisan))
2. ???
3. ProfitExactly this. In Shadowrun, you have to spend build resources on contacts, and the more awesome they are the less likely they're available to help you. In D&D, you can just write Daddy Warbucks into your backstory and say he's fanatical to you, for free. Of course, you still need an accommodating DM, but in this case it's so that he won't (rightfully) subvert or reject the backstory.

Completely outside the rules, roleplay-oriented (it's about having a detailed backstory!), and potentially game breaking.

[Story]

In D&D, you can just write Daddy Warbucks into your backstory and say he's fanatical to you, for free.

That gave me the idea for a Princess Morbucks-like Artificer refluffed to just buy her way to magic powers so she can play with the other adventurers.

[Curmudgeon]

In D&D, you can just write Daddy Warbucks into your backstory and say he's fanatical to you, for free. Of course, you still need an accommodating DM, but in this case it's so that he won't (rightfully) subvert or reject the backstory.
I have no idea where that concept came from, but it's not RAW. Whenever I'm DMing and see someone attempting to get extra character resources based on a tiny bit of creative writing, I tend to make bad things happen to their character. Like every merchant they come up against has just had a Cleric friend stop by and cast Guidance of the Avatar on them, which helps out their next Diplomacy check by +20 if the character decides to Haggle:
If you worsen the vendor’s attitude, the vendor refuses to sell anything to you at this time. :smallbiggrin:

[Sith_Happens]

Like every merchant they come up against has just had a Cleric friend stop by and cast Guidance of the Avatar on them, which helps out their next Diplomacy check by +20 if the character decides to Haggle: :smallbiggrin:

That doesn't work. The vendor doesn't actually make a Diplomacy check, the DM just adds their modifier (which cannot include the bonus from GotA, since that only applies to a check) to the DC.

[Juntao112]

Basically how to benefit something that's not written in RAW.

We all can make an OP character with feats and stats wise, but
nobody thought of taking Profession(lock smithing) to open locks.
Get the picture?


http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090507133527/8bittheater/images/3/3b/Comic_986.png (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2008/05/01/episode-986-164/)

Animal Husbandry is the solution to all your problems, even the ones involving tentacles (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2008/09/02/episode-1032-damn-yankees/).

[Curmudgeon]

That doesn't work. The vendor doesn't actually make a Diplomacy check, the DM just adds their modifier (which cannot include the bonus from GotA, since that only applies to a check) to the DC.
If we went straight to the Haggle rules when the PC wanted to Haggle, that would normally be the case. However, there's nothing to keep the merchant from negotiating instead when the PC wants to Haggle:
In negotiations, participants roll opposed Diplomacy checks, and the winner gains the advantage.
That line in the Diplomacy rules is my go-to out whenever PCs attempt to steamroll over NPCs with the ludicrously one-way Influencing NPC Attitudes part of Diplomacy.

Plus, for haggling, I can always turn to this clause:
The DM is the final arbiter of any sale of goods and should discourage abuse of this option if it is slowing the game down too much. The character of a greedy player will frequently attempt to use Diplomacy tricks to try to gain further advantage (no surprise there). Every Haggle attempt immediately countered by a merchant negotiation attempt (against the greedy, not as a general rule) will pretty much always slow the game down.
If (and only if) they attempt to screw with the rules for greater character resources, I pull out all the (legal) stops in making their character's life difficult whenever they attempt to gain more resources. (After all, the punishment should fit the crime. :smallwink:)

[the_david]

I don't think locksmiths actually know how to pick a lock. Yes, they can replace locks, but that takes a lot more time than Disable Device. Besides, they're experts, they have enough skill points to learn how to pick a lock if they want to. You could try to get a +2 synergy bonus for that.

As for the blanket fighter, congratulations! You just wasted your turn on helping the rogue get 1 sneak attack. That is, if the opponent didn't use a move action on his turn to drop the blanket to the floor. Ofcourse, you could have moved into a flanking position with the rogue and actually attack your opponent thereby giving the rogue his chance to use sneak attack.

Oh, right, and there's this thing called wealth by level. I don't know if you heard of this, but whenever that greedy player tries to get a discount, you just subtract that discount from the loot you still have to give out! It's awesome!

[Sith_Happens]

[Snip]

Well, that will definitely keep them from buying the item, just not by merit of the relevant sentence in the haggling rules.

...Which is more fitting of this thread's premise anyways.

[Spuddles]

I like to play characters that are over 100+ years old and they just forgot everything but remember things as they level up.

[Andezzar]

I'd say he's definitely denied his Dex bonus to AC, however he does have partial concealment, so oh let's say -2 to hit. Go for it.
Don't forget not to add sneak attack damage and other effects based on sneak attack. Concealment negates sneak attack.

[TuggyNE]

I don't think locksmiths actually know how to pick a lock. Yes, they can replace locks, but that takes a lot more time than Disable Device. Besides, they're experts, they have enough skill points to learn how to pick a lock if they want to.

Let's put it this way: most actual locksmiths will have a rank or two in Open Locks. However, they tend to focus more on Craft: Locksmithing (?) and a bit of Profession: Locksmith.

At least that would be my guess from having parents that were certified as locksmiths. :smallwink:

[johnbragg]

Let's stat 'em up!

Expert 1
Profession(Locksmith) 4 ranks
Craft(Locksmithing) 4 ranks
Open Locks 4 ranks

Then figure out which synergy bonuses apply.

[nedz]

Let's stat 'em up!

Expert 1
Profession(Locksmith) 4 ranks
Craft(Locksmithing) 4 ranks
Open Locks 4 ranks

Then figure out which synergy bonuses apply.

None, because you would need 5 Ranks :smallbiggrin:

[Dekion]

Just letting you know, that's not roleplaying.

Thank you for saying this, Urpriest...I read through the majority of this and saw additional game mechanics applied to skills and/or verbal/written backgrounds. It's still all game mechanics, it's still rollplay.

DM: The king seems angry when you barge into the throne room unannounced.
Player: I roll a diplomacy check and should be able to apply a bonus because I have a history of dealing with angry kings based upon the written background I sent you when we started playing.

That is not roleplay. What does your character say? How does your character say it (is the character forceful or apologetic?) Do you touch on the importance of your news to the kingdom, or quote advice you were once given by a royal advisor when you were younger (make up something interesting and lay it out there?) Do other party members get involved? Do they make matters better or worse? This is how I imagine you could possibly get mechanical bonuses (or penalties, though trying for some players is worth a reward) for roleplay.

[Urpriest]

Well let's hear it. I'm all open ears.

There are a bunch of other games you can really screw up by optimizing your roleplaying (I'm starting to realize Everyone is John is one of them, for example). In D&D, you're a bit more restricted, and things generally boil down to sociopathy.

One of the classic examples is the more Tippy-riffic version of the Batman Wizard. Your character doesn't care about anyone. They have no goals in the world, and if the villain threatens anyone they can just shrug their shoulders and ignore it. Their only motivation is personal power, so the DM has to use that to motivate them...which means that every quest is going to add to their personal power, directly or indirectly. Sure, the DM can just ignore you and let you do nothing while the world burns...but that's an OOC stalemate, and if you're as sociopathic in reality as your character is you're winning that battle.

In general, speed beats quality when it comes to getting roleplaying results in a competitive situation. If others need to think about what to do next and you don't then what you want to happen next will happen, because most groups don't take turns when roleplaying. It's trivial to take over the spotlight and direct the rest of the group just by always having something to say.

Make sure that each member of the group thinks you're really invested in their subplot (this includes the DM). Listen avidly when they tell you about what they're going for (out of session, to not spoil your spotlight time), and plan with them how your character and their character will cooperate to do cool things. If the plans you make are something you want to happen, engineer them using the trick in the last paragraph. If you don't want them to happen, gently steer the players out of session to your point of view, or just never get around to doing their idea, because after all, things keep moving so quickly! As long as nobody suspects you're just in it for self-aggrandizement you're in the clear.

Note that I'm not recommending you actually do any of this. Optimizing roleplaying means optimizing people, and unlike mechanics, people have feelings. Plus, optimizing people isn't even interesting: when sociopathy is the solution to all your problems, you're not doing anything that people couldn't have done thousands of years prior. I much prefer finding ways to use the rules that no-one has thought of before.

[Randomocity132]

Basically how to benefit something that's not written in RAW.

We all can make an OP character with feats and stats wise, but
nobody thought of taking Profession(lock smithing) to open locks.
Get the picture?


Sorry to mention, but that's precisely what the rogue in our party took as profession. She got a +5 synergy bonus to Open Lock since she's already proficient in it.

[nedz]

Sorry to mention, but that's precisely what the rogue in our party took as profession. She got a +5 synergy bonus to Open Lock since she's already proficient in it.

Synergy bonuses are normally +2, as are circumstance bonuses. So this is flawed DMing.

[Tyndmyr]

I have no idea where that concept came from, but it's not RAW. Whenever I'm DMing and see someone attempting to get extra character resources based on a tiny bit of creative writing, I tend to make bad things happen to their character. Like every merchant they come up against has just had a Cleric friend stop by and cast Guidance of the Avatar on them, which helps out their next Diplomacy check by +20 if the character decides to Haggle: :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I also tend to get a bit twitchy when someone writes how they're the lost princess of whatevertheheckland, and all the rich people love them.

I might reject it out of hand if it's too bad, but in any case, I'm certainly going to frown on people writing in unearned advantages willy nilly, and find some creative way to compensate for that a bit.

Synergy bonuses require five ranks, provide a +2 bonus, and there is an explicit list of them. Anything else requires a generous DM.

[MinMax Hardcore]

There are a bunch of other games you can really screw up by optimizing your roleplaying (I'm starting to realize Everyone is John is one of them, for example). In D&D, you're a bit more restricted, and things generally boil down to sociopathy.

One of the classic examples is the more Tippy-riffic version of the Batman Wizard. Your character doesn't care about anyone. They have no goals in the world, and if the villain threatens anyone they can just shrug their shoulders and ignore it. Their only motivation is personal power, so the DM has to use that to motivate them...which means that every quest is going to add to their personal power, directly or indirectly. Sure, the DM can just ignore you and let you do nothing while the world burns...but that's an OOC stalemate, and if you're as sociopathic in reality as your character is you're winning that battle.

In general, speed beats quality when it comes to getting roleplaying results in a competitive situation. If others need to think about what to do next and you don't then what you want to happen next will happen, because most groups don't take turns when roleplaying. It's trivial to take over the spotlight and direct the rest of the group just by always having something to say.

Make sure that each member of the group thinks you're really invested in their subplot (this includes the DM). Listen avidly when they tell you about what they're going for (out of session, to not spoil your spotlight time), and plan with them how your character and their character will cooperate to do cool things. If the plans you make are something you want to happen, engineer them using the trick in the last paragraph. If you don't want them to happen, gently steer the players out of session to your point of view, or just never get around to doing their idea, because after all, things keep moving so quickly! As long as nobody suspects you're just in it for self-aggrandizement you're in the clear.

Note that I'm not recommending you actually do any of this. Optimizing roleplaying means optimizing people, and unlike mechanics, people have feelings. Plus, optimizing people isn't even interesting: when sociopathy is the solution to all your problems, you're not doing anything that people couldn't have done thousands of years prior. I much prefer finding ways to use the rules that no-one has thought of before.

Words of wisdom.
Bolded Part: very words of wisdom.

Old Man Henderson is the idea of Min-Max Roleplaying.
200 pages of background, even some of it in German.

[nedz]

Synergy bonuses require five ranks, provide a +2 bonus, and there is an explicit list of them. Anything else requires a generous DM.

A +2 circumstance bonus might be reasonable in this case, and IIRC is RAW.


Words of wisdom.
Bolded Part: very words of wisdom.

Old Man Henderson is the idea of Min-Max Roleplaying.
200 pages of background, even some of it in German.

I would reject 200 pages of background out of hand, mind you I'm lucky to get 1 page.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I have no idea where that concept came from, but it's not RAW. Whenever I'm DMing and see someone attempting to get extra character resources based on a tiny bit of creative writing, I tend to make bad things happen to their character. Like every merchant they come up against has just had a Cleric friend stop by and cast Guidance of the Avatar on them, which helps out their next Diplomacy check by +20 if the character decides to Haggle: :smallbiggrin:First of all, of course having a wealthy/powerful benefactor isn't RAW. That's what the thread is about.

Second, you're saying the proper response is for there to be a bunch of clerics casting obscure online 3.0 spells on every single merchant the PC deals with, and for all of them to want to haggle instead of just charging the listed price? Why not just make the merchant secretly Azathoth instead? It really drives the point home harder.

In the sentence you didn't bold, I did say the DM could screw you over if you actually tried to do something so silly. The thing is, the DM can always screw you over. If you're doing this "merchants never sell you anything ever" metagaming silliness to every PC, what makes the character with Daddy Warbucks worse off?

[Curmudgeon]

Second, you're saying the proper response is for there to be a bunch of clerics casting obscure online 3.0 spells on every single merchant the PC deals with, and for all of them to want to haggle instead of just charging the listed price?
I'm afraid you misunderstood. If the same player who tries to get extra resources through their backstory also has their character try to Haggle for discounts on equipment, my merchant response is to be other than accommodating: no discounts for that PC.

[MinMax Hardcore]

I would reject 200 pages of background out of hand, mind you I'm lucky to get 1 page.

My DM once made each player to make a page long background story
before playing. Because I already played in her campaign before,
I just made a background of events that happen to my character
from the old campaign.

I felt like a very lazy PC that day.

[Augmental]

I'm afraid you misunderstood. If the same player who tries to get extra resources through their backstory also has their character try to Haggle for discounts on equipment, my merchant response is to be other than accommodating: no discounts for that PC.

...By having clerics going around casting obscure 3.0 spells on every merchant the PCs try to haggle with? :smallconfused:

[Curmudgeon]

...By having clerics going around casting obscure 3.0 spells on every merchant the PCs try to haggle with? :smallconfused:
No, just the one PC.

[dspeyer]

I've done a little lockpicking. I'm not very good. The hard part isn't understanding how the lock works, it's feeling the chamber move a tiny amount as the pin slides into place, and maintaining the exact right pressure. These skills are not needed for locksmithing. A synergy bonus might be reasonable, especially dealing with obscure locks.

Also, experts who are professional locksmiths probably have maxed-out open lock: they've got skill points to spare and it probably comes in handy.

[MinMax Hardcore]

I've done a little lockpicking. I'm not very good. The hard part isn't understanding how the lock works, it's feeling the chamber move a tiny amount as the pin slides into place, and maintaining the exact right pressure. These skills are not needed for locksmithing. A synergy bonus might be reasonable, especially dealing with obscure locks.

Also, experts who are professional locksmiths probably have maxed-out open lock: they've got skill points to spare and it probably comes in handy.

Alright, let's explain this in modern terms.

Let's say we got a skill call Hacking. Somebody with that skill
can hack into computers and etc.

Then we got Profession(Computer Programmer). Somebody
who designs the programs that hackers try to break.

Why does the Computer Programmer need to take Hacking skill
to hack his own programs?

Why does the Lock Smither need to take Open Lock skill
to open the locks that he design himself?

[Andezzar]

Alright, let's explain this in modern terms.

Let's say we got a skill call Hacking. Somebody with that skill
can hack into computers and etc.

Then we got Profession(Computer Programmer). Somebody
who designs the programs that hackers try to break.

Why does the Computer Programmer need to take Hacking skill
to hack his own programs?Because he has to find a loop hole and exploit it just like any other hacker. Unless he deliberately introduced such a loop hole he will not have a much easier time finding it than the next guy.


Why does the Lock Smither need to take Open Lock skill
to open the locks that he design himself?Because he needs to pick the lock just like everybody else, if he does not have the key.

[Juntao112]

Alright, let's explain this in modern terms.

Let's say we got a skill call Hacking. Somebody with that skill
can hack into computers and etc.

Then we got Profession(Computer Programmer). Somebody
who designs the programs that hackers try to break.

Why does the Computer Programmer need to take Hacking skill
to hack his own programs?

You wouldn't be much of a hacker if all you could do was hack your own programs.

[TuggyNE]

Alright, let's explain this in modern terms.

Let's say we got a skill call Hacking. Somebody with that skill
can hack into computers and etc.

Then we got Profession(Computer Programmer). Somebody
who designs the programs that hackers try to break.

Why does the Computer Programmer need to take Hacking skill
to hack his own programs?

I don't know, you tell me. I have pretty high ranks in Profession: Computer Programmer (3? 4? 5?), a decent Int bonus, and arguably a skill focus or affinity feat or some such, but if you ask me to crack* some random program, or even my own code if I don't have full access to it, I won't do super hot.

I will doubtless do a better job at it than Joe Blow off the street who lists "Can type in Word and save files" on his resume, sure, but that's not saying much now is it?

*Crack is the proper term for malicious or destructive hacking; hacking proper refers to general writing and skilled usage of computer programs, especially the more elegant or artistic applications.

[MinMax Hardcore]

Because he needs to pick the lock just like everybody else, if he does not have the key.

But he is not like everybody else. At least he know how
locks are made from the inside out.

The question is, how simple is a simple lock in D&D
and how high the Profession(Lock Smither) be for him to
open that lock without a key?

If it gets to the point he can craft complex locks, but
still can't open a simple lock without a key then something wrong.

[Andezzar]

But he is not like everybody else. At least he know how
locks are made from the inside out.

The question is, how simple is a simple lock in D&D
and how high the Profession(Lock Smither) be for him to
open that lock without a key?

If it gets to the point he can craft complex locks, but
still can't open a simple lock without a key then something wrong.Designing and building locks require different abilities (I'm trying not to use the word skill). Read again what dspeyer wrote about lockpicking. knowing that you have to hold down six tumblers does not give you any particular ability to actually hold them down.

[Red Fel]

Designing and building locks require different abilities (I'm trying not to use the word skill). Read again what dspeyer wrote about lockpicking. knowing that you have to hold down six tumblers does not give you any particular ability to actually hold them down.

This. Knowing how to build something may give you an academic knowledge of how to dismantle it, (read: possible synergy bonus) but it will not give you a practical knowledge of how to do so.

An architect may know about the structural weaknesses of buildings, but that does not mean that he is also a master of demolitions.

A locksmith may understand that applying pressure to the pins opens the lock, but that does not mean she has the experience and manual dexterity to do so.

A programmer may comprehend computer code and how programs are built, but that does not mean he has practice exploiting bugs and loopholes in order to subvert a program's ordinary operations.

That two skills are related does not make them interchangeable.

[supermonkeyjoe]

This. Knowing how to build something may give you an academic knowledge of how to dismantle it, (read: possible synergy bonus) but it will not give you a practical knowledge of how to do so.

An architect may know about the structural weaknesses of buildings, but that does not mean that he is also a master of demolitions.

A locksmith may understand that applying pressure to the pins opens the lock, but that does not mean she has the experience and manual dexterity to do so.

A programmer may comprehend computer code and how programs are built, but that does not mean he has practice exploiting bugs and loopholes in order to subvert a program's ordinary operations.

That two skills are related does not make them interchangeable.

Case in point: Open lock is a DEX based skill and profession: locksmith is a WIS based skill. Open lock is your physical ability to pick a lock, Profession: locksmith is your intuitive ability to make money from being a locksmith, you might have lots of ranks in craft: lock and open lock and make money based on your abilities, you might not and just be a really shrewd businessman.

[Psyren]

If it gets to the point he can craft complex locks, but
still can't open a simple lock without a key then something wrong.

This analogy doesn't really work because crafting requires specialized tools and a workbench. I might know every circuit of my laptop inside out but without a screwdriver and a soldering iron I'm pretty much SoL as far as getting to and altering the boards.

[johnbragg]

You wouldn't be much of a hacker if all you could do was hack your own programs.

He doesn't have to hack his own programs--he has access.

Getting access when you're not supposed to have access is a separate skill/set of skills.

Now, if part of your job is to make sure the program is reasonably secure, then you want some Hacking skills, so you can test how hard/easy it is to get unauthorized access. But maybe that's not your job, and maybe that's not your interests. You could perfectly well build the program front-to-back and start-to-finish with no security--you plan to open-source it anyway, or you're just in it for the paycheck and making it secure is someone else's department. Or maybe you're a hobbyist creating programs with minimal hacking value. (Oh noes, he hacked by emulator of a 1980s line-input CAD program. Oh, wait, it was freeware anyway.)

Of course, that's why the NPC Expert class has mad class skills and plenty of skill points. So a computer programmer probably has a couple of ranks in hacking--jailbreaking iPhones, breaking DVD copy protection, maybe fiddling with MS programs to fix security holes.


Originally Posted by MinMax Hardcore View Post
If it gets to the point he can craft complex locks, but
still can't open a simple lock without a key then something wrong.

If he has his full set of screwdrivers, drill, pliers etc, then he'll get it open, no problem. Bonuses to his Bluff check if his jacket says "Springfield Locksmith and Safe Co." when the cops show up.

You want it done quickly and not-to-conspicuously? you need to call a different guy.

[Flickerdart]

But he is not like everybody else. At least he know how
locks are made from the inside out.

The question is, how simple is a simple lock in D&D
and how high the Profession(Lock Smither) be for him to
open that lock without a key?

If it gets to the point he can craft complex locks, but
still can't open a simple lock without a key then something wrong.
A physicist knows how quantum tunnelling works, but that doesn't let him walk through walls.

[Red Fel]

A physicist knows how quantum tunnelling works, but that doesn't let him walk through walls.

Precisely. There is a profound difference between having an academic knowledge (such as a Knowledge or Profession skill) of how a thing is done, and having the training and practice to actually do it.

For instance, someone who graduates medical school would have an understanding of how the body works, which parts do what, and what happens when they go wrong. That doesn't mean they have the manual dexterity, experience, and training to perform surgery. Some do; these are called surgeons, and specifically choose to specialize in cutting folks open. Nor does it mean they have enough combat skills and practice to apply their knowledge of anatomical function to strike the perfect spot on an enemy every time. Again, there are those who specifically use their anatomical knowledge in a martial setting - this is a specialization, illustrated by training and skill ranks. Is there a skill synergy? Probably. But the two are not interchangeable.

[Juntao112]

I challenge anyone to give me a problem that cannot be overcome by a sufficiently imaginative and vigorous use of Animal Husbandry.

[Flickerdart]

I challenge anyone to give me a problem that cannot be overcome by a sufficiently imaginative and vigorous use of Animal Husbandry.
Erasing the disturbing mental image in my head.

[Juntao112]

Erasing the disturbing mental image in my head.

Clearly, the solution is to husband you by striking you on the head with a mallet. Hitting on you in such a fashion will cause you to forget distressing mental images.

[Red Fel]

Clearly, the solution is to husband you by striking you on the head with a mallet. Hitting on you in such a fashion will cause you to forget distressing mental images.
Objection! Does not use Animal Husbandry skill.

I would suggest breeding a horse with pronounced kicking muscles, and raising them after several generations to perform precise cranial kicks on command.

Ain't that a kick... :smallcool: in the head?

[MinMax Hardcore]

I challenge anyone to give me a problem that cannot be overcome by a sufficiently imaginative and vigorous use of Animal Husbandry.

So if my Profession is Horse Trainer, do I need
Handle Animal skill to train horses?

[JaronK]

So if my Profession is Horse Trainer, do I need
Handle Animal skill to train horses?

Yes, mostly because only a terrible Horse Trainer would lack the ability to train horses, so you really should take the skill.

Profession Horse Trainer is your ability to monetize your skill, nothing more. It means you know how to make connections, sell your skills, and so on. If you don't actually have an Handle Animal, you're just one of those no talent hacks who still manages to get paid. Probably all you're doing is providing housing for the horse, feeding it, and subcontracting to someone who can actually train horses.

JaronK

[Sith_Happens]

and subcontracting to someone who can actually train horses.

...Well, that sentence just turned Profession(Adventurer) into the most hilarious thing ever.:smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

Yes, mostly because only a terrible Horse Trainer would lack the ability to train horses, so you really should take the skill.

Profession Horse Trainer is your ability to monetize your skill, nothing more. It means you know how to make connections, sell your skills, and so on. If you don't actually have an Handle Animal, you're just one of those no talent hacks who still manages to get paid. Probably all you're doing is providing housing for the horse, feeding it, and subcontracting to someone who can actually train horses.

JaronK

Just to give an example of this, the president of General Motors likely has ranks in Profession: Automotive Manufacturer, but no ranks in Craft: Automotive. If you're a manager-level position you don't need to know the craft to make money.

[JaronK]

...Well, that sentence just turned Profession(Adventurer) into the most hilarious thing ever.:smallbiggrin:

You know those guys you meet in taverns who give you quests? Yeah, they have tons of ranks in Profession Adventurer. Their job is subcontracting to your party. They also pay a cut to the tavern owner. It's a whole business.

JaronK