Multi Class Rule Misreading

[Saambell]

So my DM has in his head a misconception about Multiclassing. Namely that when you level up and you have 2 or more classes you add a level to all of them. The only time you level up only one class being when you take a new one you did not have before.
Now I could show him the one sentence in the PHB that would throw his belief out the window. However this misconception has helped the Fighter/Barbarian greatly and would sadden him and make the fights the DM has planned for us a lot harder.
So in light of these rule i have decided to make a Mystic Thurge. Because the fun way to fix a broken rule is to show why it is broken.
The party is Level 8 at the moment. With the level progression the DM thinks happens in this case it would go like this:
L C W MT
1 1
2 1 1
3 2 2
4 3 3
5 3 3 1
6 4 4 2
7 5 5 3
8 6 6 4
I only have the DMG, PHB1 and Spell Compendium in terms of game books and would like to keep what I use to what's in those books.
This leaves me with a few questions:
1st: Is there any god for the Cleric side in particular that would give the better results?
2nd: I have chosen to Specialize in Divination for the Wizard side, reasoning that if I want extra spells AND the versatility that Wizards are famous for that is possibly the best choice. Which School is the better of the three(Ench, Necro, Evoc) to drop? Is Div even a good choice to Specialize in?
3rd: If I drop a School and the Cleric side can cast a spell of that school do i have to skip that spell too?
4th: With only PHB1 and Spell Compendium what is a good way to build the spell lists? I have decided to limit my self to only starting with the spells I would have from level up on the Wizard side. As far as I know the Cleric can cast any from their spell list as long as they prepare it. Am I wrong about that?
Lastly I feel I must mention that he knows that I am making a possibly broken character. All he thinks is that I am just using the rules like how they are supposed to be used.
(One reason i am not looking forward to Teleport is he says he can lock me in "Warp Space" mid jump if it proves to be too broken.:smallfrown:)

[John Longarrow]

Easier way...
Level 1 - Barbarian
Level 2 - Ranger
Level 3 - Fighter

BAB is 3 because you would be 1/1/1.
Take the next 5 levels of Barbarian.
You should then, by your DM's calculations, be 6/6/6.

You would now have a BAB of 18. That gives you 4 attacks at +18/+13/+8/+3. Compare that to your barbarian fighter and see who works best.

Show this to your DM along with the proper line from the PHB.

You don't want to make an uber caster, you just want to show that even one extra class would make for even worse cheese.

[Stux]

Wow that is one crazy DM


1st: Is there any god for the Cleric side in particular that would give the better results?

God is kind of irrelevant. It is totally RAW to worship an ideology and just pick domains that fit that. Domains aren't so important though, as one of the main things they are used for is getting a few wizard spells as a cleric, which won't be a problem for you.



2nd: I have chosen to Specialize in Divination for the Wizard side, reasoning that if I want extra spells AND the versatility that Wizards are famous for that is possibly the best choice. Which School is the better of the three(Ench, Necro, Evoc) to drop? Is Div even a good choice to Specialize in?

Divination isn't the best speciality, because while useful the spells aren't as full on powerful as others. Usually people tend to go for Transmutation or Conjuration, as they are often considered the most powerful.

As for which to drop, conventional wisdom tends to lean towards Enchantment. It has some really fun stuff in it, but if half the time you are fighting things that are immune to all of it, and the rest get Will saves to completely negate the effect, then whats the point? Depends on your campaign to a degree of course.



3rd: If I drop a School and the Cleric side can cast a spell of that school do i have to skip that spell too?

Nope, it only effects your wizard's casting. Your Cleric slots can still use the spell just fine.



4th: With only PHB1 and Spell Compendium what is a good way to build the spell lists? I have decided to limit my self to only starting with the spells I would have from level up on the Wizard side. As far as I know the Cleric can cast any from their spell list as long as they prepare it. Am I wrong about that?

Yeah the cleric knows all the spells on their list. You have a huge choice in what to prepare each day.



Lastly I feel I must mention that he knows that I am making a possibly broken character. All he thinks is that I am just using the rules like how they are supposed to be used.
(One reason i am not looking forward to Teleport is he says he can lock me in "Warp Space" mid jump if it proves to be too broken.:smallfrown:)
No doubt this build will be crazy powerful. You'll get your spells 1 level late of course, but you'll be building up slots at double the normal rate, which offsets that quite a lot. Example: normal level 17 wizard has a 9th level spell, but you wont have any. However a normal level 18 wizard has 2 level 9 spells, and you will also have 2 level 9 spells - 1 wizard and 1 cleric. By level 19 you have overtaken him in total number of level 9 spells you can cast a day.

The shear number of castings per day, and options available for those castings, will make things very easy for you. In fact you'll put the rest of the party out of a job. Which is why I would advise against this, as you wont just prove your DM wrong but probably make the game not very fun for everyone else.

[nedz]

Easier way...
Level 1 - Barbarian
Level 2 - Ranger
Level 3 - Fighter

BAB is 3 because you would be 1/1/1.
Take the next 5 levels of Barbarian.
You should then, by your DM's calculations, be 6/6/6.

You would now have a BAB of 18. That gives you 4 attacks at +18/+13/+8/+3. Compare that to your barbarian fighter and see who works best.

Show this to your DM along with the proper line from the PHB.

You don't want to make an uber caster, you just want to show that even one extra class would make for even worse cheese.

I think you misread the OP, just not as badly as the DM read the rules.

The optimal character to play in these rules has two levels in each of multiple classes.

[Aasimar]

You have GOT to correct your DM, this is too crazy.

[ArcturusV]

Heck, if you REALLY wanted to "prove him wrong", multiclass out of Mystic Theurge as well. I would suggest using less "broken" classes after that, just so you can prove it's the Multiclass Rule, and not "Well I looked online and saw Initiate of Seven Fold Veil is really powerful and that's the problem!"

So add in Loremaster as well, add in Archmage. Heck, with your insane amounts of bonuses with so many skill points, saves, BaB, etc, even add in levels like Duelist, Rogue into Assassin, even Paladin as a one off endcap once you're done.

Not only will you be a game breakingly powerful caster, but going Cleric, Wizard, Theurge, Paladin even will also tend to make you even a better "beatstick" than the Fighter/Barbarian. Which should really drive home the point that something is off in wonderland.

Thus at say, level 10, the comparison would be:

Fighter/Barbarian: +18 BaB, 66 Skill points, 6 bonus fighter feats, Some Raging. 12/5/5 for their Fort, Reflex/Will saves.

Cleric/Wizard/MT/Paladin (Paladin done last so you won't run afoul of that "if you stop leveling paladin, you can't anymore" rule): +5 BaB, 5/2/5 saves, Turn and Rebuke as a 7th level Cleric, 2 domains, 7th level Cleric Casting. +20 skill points.
Wizard getting you +3 BaB, 2/2/5 Fort/Reflex/Will saves, 6th level Familiar, Scribe Scroll, free Creation/Metamagic feat. 6th level Wizard Casting. +12 skill points.
Mystic Theurge getting you +2 BaB, 1/1/4 Fort/Reflex/Will Saves, and +4 levels of Cleric and Wizard Casting, and +10 skill points.
Paladin getting you+ 4 BaB, +4/1/1 Fort/Ref/Will saves, +1 level of Undead Turning (But also +3 more uses), Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Aura of Good, Divine Health, Paladin Spellcasting, 8 Skill Points.

For a total of:

14 BaB (Barely worse than the Fighter/Barbarian), 12/6/15 Fort/Reflex/Will save, before Divine Grace (Strictly better than the Barbarian), 11th level Cleric Casting (Your ability exceeded your level, always good), 10th level Wizard Casting (Your ability equals your level, also good), 1st level Paladin Casting (Not hot except it DOES let you cast some Paladin Unique spells like Rhino's Charge. Also with being part Cleric you probably have Wisdom Bonus spells, so a few extra utility slots). Turn and Rebuke Undead as an 8th level Cleric (Not amazing, but you also have a lot of uses without burning feats on Extra Turning, so yeah). 50 skill points so you lose out to the Barbarian/Fighter only because all your classes are 2+Int... then again as a Wizard, you probably have the Int bonus to equal it out a bit. Not to mention some Paladin goodies like Divine Grace, Smite, Lay on Hands, immunity to diseases, Fear, etc.

And level 10 would probably be the last level that the Fighter/Barbarian is better at his role than you are (Not even counting the ability of Clerics, Wizards, and Paladin spellcasting to buff out). Not to mention all the spellcasting power you have. By the time you hit 11, get your Special Mount, Wizard and Cleric Casting are both more advanced than your level should allow, etc, you will probably be at the point where there's no denying that something is borked as the "Magic Man" is better at being a mundane melee machine than the specialist.

[Maginomicon]

It sounds like he's confusing 3e Multiclassing with 2e Dual-classing. XD

If so, remind him that dual-classing doesn't exist in 3e.

[Thanatosia]

If so, remind him that dual-classing doesn't exist in 3e.
Eh, it kinda does, they just call it Gestalt characters now - only instead of splitting the xp it's just a special high-powered campaign option.

[Xerlith]

I would say that it's an okay option for non-casting classes. It actually lets your mundanes to keep up with the mages, even if only a bit.
You should just talk to him and explain, but letting the fightarian stay the same.

[Sith_Happens]

So in light of these rule i have decided to make a Mystic Thurge. Because the fun way to fix a broken rule is to show why it is broken.
The party is Level 8 at the moment. With the level progression the DM thinks happens in this case it would go like this:
L C W MT
1 1
2 1 1
3 2 2
4 3 3
5 3 3 1
6 4 4 2
7 5 5 3
8 6 6 4

So, double-checking, how does he think the caster advancement from MT works when you're gaining actual Wizard and Cleric levels at the same time? Will you, for example, be casting as a Wizard 10/Cleric 10 at 8th level? And getting dual 9ths at 12th level? Because if so, that is completely insane and you should throw some Psion and Cerebremancer in there just to drive the point home.:smallamused:


2nd: I have chosen to Specialize in Divination for the Wizard side, reasoning that if I want extra spells AND the versatility that Wizards are famous for that is possibly the best choice. Which School is the better of the three(Ench, Necro, Evoc) to drop? Is Div even a good choice to Specialize in?
3rd: If I drop a School and the Cleric side can cast a spell of that school do i have to skip that spell too?

You're fast-advancing two classes at once, you have enough spell slots already. Stay a generalist.


(One reason i am not looking forward to Teleport is he says he can lock me in "Warp Space" mid jump if it proves to be too broken.:smallfrown:)

Yeah, ask him how he plans on doing that.

[Segev]

I think you're going about this wrong.

You could convince your DM without going through all of this. If the goal is to convince the DM, then, you should do that, because this will damage the fun others are having in the game. (If it won't damage the fun others are having in the game, then it won't achieve any goal of "proving" anything.)

You are concerned that convincing the DM he is wrong would ruin the fun of your fighter/barbarian in the party. If you do not wish to do so, you probably shouldn't be engaging in a plan to convince the DM his rule is wrong.

Honestly, I suggest playing what you want and not trying to break anything. Take advantage of the rule where it helps, but don't go out of your way to exploit it. I'd also go ahead and show the DM the rule in the PHB that would convince him this isn't how the game is designed, but then suggest that, since it's working so far, you continue with it. Make sure he's aware, but don't encourage him to throw it out to the detriment of the barbarian's player. And then strive to play a fun character and self-regulate your power level for maximum enjoyment.

[ArcturusV]

Eh, it kinda does, they just call it Gestalt characters now - only instead of splitting the xp it's just a special high-powered campaign option.

I wouldn't compare Gestalt to Dual Classing. Gestalt is more like the old Multiclassing, leveling up 2+ classes at the same time and taking the best effects out of each of them.

Dual Classing... doesn't really have an analogue to 3rd edition that I've found. Remember how Dual Classing worked:

Human only. You reach Level X (Of your choice) in some class. Decide to "retire" as that class and become something else. You keep your HP, THAC0, etc, of the old class, but start as level 1 in a new class with only level 1 powers. You can only advance in level so long as you DON'T use the powers of your old class. Once you reached level X+1 with your second class you can use powers of both your classes. You can never level up your first class again.

So not quite Gestalt. Or anything really. Maybe the closest you could compare it to is Paladin to Blackguard? Or Shugenja to Maho-Tsukai? But even that isn't really the same.

I mention this only because it WAS an interesting thing to do and if 3rd edition did have something that emulated it pretty well, I'd like to see it.