BAB..hows it work?

[PraxisVetli]

Alright, dm vs player dispute, help me out.
Suppose I am 6ftr//5wiz.
Fighter BAB is +6/+1
Wizard BAB is +2
Is my my Full Attack action
+8/+1
+11/+6/+1
Help me out guys, I always thought it was the former, but he thinks its the latter.

[eggynack]

Neither. It'd be +8/+3.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You're both wrong. Your BAB is +8/+3.

[Tvtyrant]

You are completely out of it.

[PraxisVetli]

What?
can you elaborate?
like, Ive never played this game before

[Inferno]

Your bab would actually be +8/+3.
Each +1 to your bab from classes effectively moves you to the next step on a fighters(or any full bab class') bab chart.

[SciChronic]

essentially BAB works like this:

when you BAB reaches 6,11,and 16 you gain an extra attack at -5 of your lowest iterative attack. so 7/2, 13/8/3, 16/11/6/1, etc.

BAB is cumulative no matter what class/racial levels you get it from

[eggynack]

What?
can you elaborate?
like, Ive never played this game before
You just have the regular BAB, which is the two BAB's added together. In this case, that BAB is +8. At a BAB of +6, you get an iterative of five less than your BAB, that goes up by one per level. You get a third at +11, and a fourth at +16. Anyways, your BAB is +8, so you get an iterative at +3, which is five less. Thus, +8/+3.

[PraxisVetli]

Well crap.
thanks guys..
Feelsembarrased.gif

[Stux]

Yeah, +8/+3

Here is how you work it out if you are adding BAB from multiple classes together:

First only look at the leftmost number. Ignore all the others. Add those together for each class.

So if you have
Fighter: +6/+1
Ranger: +7/+2
Wizard: +1

The total is +14

Now if your total is greater than 5 you get another attack at the same BAB minus 5. In my example that is 14 - 5 = 9. This number is also greater 5, so you get another attack at minus 5 again, which is 9 - 5 = 4. This is not greater than 5 so that is all your attacks.

That gives us +14/+9/+4

[johnbragg]

What?
can you elaborate?
like, Ive never played this game before

The first number is the BAB, Base Attack Bonus. That controls the other number (s). You have +6 BAB from being a 5th level fighter. That stacks (adds) with the +2 BAB you'd get if you were just a 6th level wizard. So your BAB is +8.

The second number is your second attack, which you get when you hit BAB +6. The second attack is 5 less than the first attack. So your BAB is 8, your "attack bonus" is +8 for your first attack, then +3 for another attack.

If you get a few more levels, and your BAB is 11, you get a third attack, and your attacks will be +11/+6/+1.

Hope this helps.

[Urpriest]

Suppose I am 6ftr//5wiz.


Generally speaking, // is used on this forum to mean Gestalt (an optional system from Unearthed Arcana), while / is used to mean multiclass. Do you mean Gestalt, or multiclass?

[eggynack]

Generally speaking, // is used on this forum to mean Gestalt (an optional system from Unearthed Arcana), while / is used to mean multiclass. Do you mean Gestalt, or multiclass?
I was confused at first too, but I figured that it has to be a multiclass, due to the uneven classes on either side.

[PraxisVetli]

Generally speaking, // is used on this forum to mean Gestalt (an optional system from Unearthed Arcana), while / is used to mean multiclass. Do you mean Gestalt, or multiclass?

Multiclass, apologies for improper format.

[TheIronGolem]

Think of it this way:

Start with the sum of the listed BAB's for each class you have at whatever level you have it. That's the BAB for your first attack.
Take that number and subtract 5.
Did step 2 give you a result of 1 or higher?

Yes: You get an additional attack at -5. Go back to step 2, using this number.
No: No further attacks. You're done.



So in your case:


Your base BAB is 6 (for a 6th-level fighter) + 2 (for a 5th-level wizard) = 8.
8 - 5 = 3
3 >= 1, therefore you get an additional attack at -3
3 - 5 = -2
-2 is less than 1. No further attacks. Your base attack is +8/+3.


Edit: Repeatedly, savagely beaten.

[PraxisVetli]

Well, thanks guys. I appreciate it, a lot.

[Thanatosia]

I'm really curious what sort of thought process/logic lead one of you to think you'd have a +11 on your first attack.... that seems.... really out of left field to ever add a 6/+1 and a +2 to get an 11 somehow.

[eggynack]

I'm really curious what sort of thought process/logic lead one of you to think you'd have a +11 on your first attack.... that seems.... really out of left field to ever add a 6/+1 and a +2 to get an 11 somehow.
I think the idea is that the fighter BAB sticks around through all the levels.

[Renegade Paladin]

For completeness' sake, the full explanation of BAB actually starts with the progression calculation. Classes that get a BAB increase every level have a base attack bonus equal to their level. Classes that cap out at +15 have a BAB equal to 3/4 their level, and classes that cap out at +10 have a BAB equal to half their level. So at fighter 6/wizard 5 you actually have a BAB of 8.5 (6 from fighter, 2.5 from wizard) which is rounded down (because you always round fractions down in D&D) to 8. This becomes important if you want to use fractional BAB when multiclassing two classes that both don't get BAB equal to their level, so if you had a rogue 6/wizard 5 instead you could either have a BAB of +6/+1 if simply adding up the numbers on the chart (the default) or, if you're a math geek and realize how the system works (and your DM wants to use fractional BAB, more importantly) +7/+2 (4.5 from rogue and 2.5 from wizard).

Clear as mud? :smallwink:

[eggynack]

For completeness' sake, the full explanation of BAB actually starts with the progression calculation. Classes that get a BAB increase every level have a base attack bonus equal to their level. Classes that cap out at +15 have a BAB equal to 3/4 their level, and classes that cap out at +10 have a BAB equal to half their level. So at fighter 6/wizard 5 you actually have a BAB of 8.5 (6 from fighter, 2.5 from wizard) which is rounded down (because you always round fractions down in D&D) to 8. This becomes important if you want to use fractional BAB when multiclassing two classes that both don't get BAB equal to their level, so if you had a rogue 6/wizard 5 instead you could either have a BAB of +6/+1 if simply adding up the numbers on the chart (the default) or, if you're a math geek and realize how the system works (and your DM wants to use fractional BAB, more importantly) +7/+2 (4.5 from rogue and 2.5 from wizard).

Clear as mud? :smallwink:
This is kinda inaccurate. That decimal stuff isn't some latent thing that starts seeing use when you use fractional BAB. It doesn't exist until you switch over. Thus, the fighter/wizard's actual BAB is 8, not 8.5. If it were 8.5, getting .5 from a different class would put you up to 9. It does not. Fractional is probably better though. It evens things out, and gets rid of some odd parts of the system like a wizard 2 having more BAB than a monk 1/rogue 1.

[Renegade Paladin]

This is kinda inaccurate.
Really?
That decimal stuff isn't some latent thing that starts seeing use when you use fractional BAB. It doesn't exist until you switch over. Thus, the fighter/wizard's actual BAB is 8, not 8.5. If it were 8.5, getting .5 from a different class would put you up to 9. It does not. Fractional is probably better though. It evens things out, and gets rid of some odd parts of the system like a wizard 2 having more BAB than a monk 1/rogue 1.
Then why did you repeat exactly what I said? :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

It should probably be pointed out that your BAB is never actually +X/+Y(/+Z…). The numbers following the first iterative are there just as reminders of the attacks you gain from BAB.

For multiclassing, it's much easier to remember that fighter 6 gives you +6 BAB (not +6/+1), for example. You add up your BAB from all classes, then note your iteratives (that is to say, the extra attacks from high BAB).

All PrCs come with only the BAB, with no note for the iteratives (which obviously vary), and it's a shame the base classes aren't handled the same way.

[eggynack]

Really?
Then why did you repeat exactly what I said? :smalltongue:
I repeated some of what you said, but not all of it. You said that a fighter 6/wizard 5 actually has a BAB of 8.5, and then it gets rounded down. That isn't true.

[Renegade Paladin]

I repeated some of what you said, but not all of it. You said that a fighter 6/wizard 5 actually has a BAB of 8.5, and then it gets rounded down. That isn't true.
It is, because that's how the charts were arrived at in the first place.

[eggynack]

It is, because that's how the charts were arrived at in the first place.
That might be where the charts come from, but it doesn't really extend into the actual game. I suspect that there was a misunderstanding between our two houses at some point. Prolly on my end.

[lsfreak]

EDIT: Nevermind, ignore this. Misread something.

[fluke1993]

As far as how he arrived at +8/+1, I think I can shed some light.

It looks to me like he assumed that you add numbers in the same part of the BAB together.

for example if he had wizard 6, then by his reasoning he would have a full attack routine of +9/+1, adding the wizards +3 BAB only to the first part of the BAB. Now if he were to get all the way up to wizard 12 ( and 6 BAB from wiz) his routine by his reckoning would look like +12/+2 adding the BABs together vertically like this:

. 6/1
+6/1
______
12/2

[Renegade Paladin]

That might be where the charts come from, but it doesn't really extend into the actual game. I suspect that there was a misunderstanding between our two houses at some point. Prolly on my end.
The rounding down is done by the game as part of the rules, so yes, by the charts the character has only +8 BAB, but by calculation he would have 8.5. Multiclassing wasn't really supported very well in 3rd edition core (in fact it was actively penalized), which is why fractional BAB only wound its way into the picture with Arcana Unearthed, but anyone paying attention to the way the progressions work can see what they did; it's basic pattern recognition. I see where you're coming from, but I was driving at it from a base mechanics perspective rather than a RAW one (which says you round each factor down and then add, without actually saying it because it does it for you), which is why I was careful to say that fractional BAB only actually applied if your DM wants to use the system.

[Greenish]

The rounding down is done by the game as part of the rules, so yes, by the charts the character has only +8 BAB, but by calculation he would have 8.5.There is nothing, outside of the optional rules of fractional BAB, that would actually say that, for example, a cleric has 3/4 BAB, or a wizard 1/2 BAB. Instead, the standard rules only tell you to follow the printed tables.

Therefore, you could have a level 20 character with +0 BAB (even without using War Hulk).

[eggynack]

The rounding down is done by the game as part of the rules, so yes, by the charts the character has only +8 BAB, but by calculation he would have 8.5. Multiclassing wasn't really supported very well in 3rd edition core (in fact it was actively penalized), which is why fractional BAB only wound its way into the picture with Arcana Unearthed, but anyone paying attention to the way the progressions work can see what they did; it's basic pattern recognition. I see where you're coming from, but I was driving at it from a base mechanics perspective rather than a RAW one (which says you round each factor down and then add, without actually saying it because it does it for you), which is why I was careful to say that fractional BAB only actually applied if your DM wants to use the system.
Yeah, that makes more sense. Still it would be more accurate to say that rounding takes place before multiclassing. A wizard 5 has 2.5 BAB, rounded down to 2, and a fighter 6 has 6 BAB, which equals 6, and the combination comes out to 8, rather than 8.5.

[karkus]

I honestly never realized how ridiculously complicated BAB rules were until this exact thread.

[TuggyNE]

I honestly never realized how ridiculously complicated BAB rules were until this exact thread.

Don't read too much into that; there's a lot of fiddly details, but that's true of anything. Mostly, BAB is just "add up the amount from different classes, derive iteratives" with an optional rounding step in there if using fractional.

[PraxisVetli]

It should probably be pointed out that your BAB is never actually +X/+Y(/+Z…). The numbers following the first iterative are there just as reminders of the attacks you gain from BAB.

For multiclassing, it's much easier to remember that fighter 6 gives you +6 BAB (not +6/+1), for example. You add up your BAB from all classes, then note your iteratives (that is to say, the extra attacks from high BAB).

All PrCs come with only the BAB, with no note for the iteratives (which obviously vary), and it's a shame the base classes aren't handled the same way.
Definately, it would be easier.

As far as how he arrived at +8/+1, I think I can shed some light.

It looks to me like he assumed that you add numbers in the same part of the BAB together.

for example if he had wizard 6, then by his reasoning he would have a full attack routine of +9/+1, adding the wizards +3 BAB only to the first part of the BAB. Now if he were to get all the way up to wizard 12 ( and 6 BAB from wiz) his routine by his reckoning would look like +12/+2 adding the BABs together vertically like this:

. 6/1
+6/1
______
12/2
yuuuuup. exactly what I did.


I honestly never realized how ridiculously complicated BAB rules were until this exact thread.
Truer words have never been spoken.

[DarkSonic1337]

I for one am a supporter of fractional bab, and fractional saves for that matter.

It's really an intuitive system and actually makes it EASIER to figure out bab/saves for multiclass characters

[Andezzar]

Don't read too much into that; there's a lot of fiddly details, but that's true of anything. Mostly, BAB is just "add up the amount from different classes, derive iteratives" with an optional rounding step in there if using fractional.That is all you ever have to do to get the BAB, if you also include racial hit dice - unless you use the optional fractional BAB. Under standard rules cleric a cleric does not have +0.75 BAB per level, he has +0 at level 1, +1 at level 2,+2 at level 3, +3 at level 4, +3 at level 5 and so on.


I for one am a supporter of fractional bab, and fractional saves for that matter.

It's really an intuitive system and actually makes it EASIER to figure out bab/saves for multiclass charactersI would not call it easier. Adding integers is easier than adding fractions. The fractional system does provide a smoother progression though.

[DarkSonic1337]

That is all you ever have to do to get the BAB, if you also include racial hit dice - unless you use the optional fractional BAB. Under standard rules cleric a cleric does not have +0.75 BAB per level, he has +0 at level 1, +1 at level 2,+2 at level 3, +3 at level 4, +3 at level 5 and so on.

I would not call it easier. Adding integers is easier than adding fractions. The fractional system does provide a smoother progression though.

It's easier in the sense that you don't really have to look up charts.

You just do

total good bab class levels+(total medium bab class levelsx3/4)+(total bad bab class levelsx1/2)

saves are even easier with just

(total good save class levelsx1/2)+(total bad save class levelsx1/3)+(number of different good save classesx2)

for each save.

I find it easier since I remember my progressions via their formulas instead of looking at the charts anyway, so rather than derive each bab/save individually and then add them together, I just total them all like above and calculate from there.

[Andezzar]

If you find looking up the charts is the most difficult part, you are right. depending on where all the classes are the fractional system is definitely faster.

Using a common denominator would make the fractional system even easier:

BAB= round down((4*# of levels with full BAB/4)+3*# of levels with medium BAB/4)+(2*# of levels with low BAB/4))

[eggynack]

Are you sure? I have never once seen anyone refer to a gestalt anything except by actually using the word "gestalt".
I've seen the // notation a lot. It's mostly that way for builds and stuff. If there were no delineation between how multiclassing and gestalt worked, it'd be really difficult to read gestalt builds that use multiclassing or prestige classes. It's separately nice to be able to tell that you're talking about gestalt at a glance, but the readable build thing is probably more important.

[PraxisVetli]

I've seen the // notation a lot. It's mostly that way for builds and stuff. If there were no delineation between how multiclassing and gestalt worked, it'd be really difficult to read gestalt builds that use multiclassing or prestige classes. It's separately nice to be able to tell that you're talking about gestalt at a glance, but the readable build thing is probably more important.

I actually have too, it just totally skipped my mind when I made the OP.