Combating Freedom of Movement

[Invader]

How do you counter freedom of movement. I'm playing a grappler and I'm not sure how long my DM is going to let me grapple things to death before he starts ruining my one good trick.

[Red Fel]

How do you counter freedom of movement. I'm playing a grappler and I'm not sure how long my DM is going to let me grapple things to death before he starts ruining my one good trick.

Don't have just one good trick?

You could always find a way to surround yourself with a very short-range AMF. That would do a decent job of suppressing FoM effects while grappling.

That said... FoM, as it is, is basically grappling's kryptonite. Not much to be done about it. If you've been relying solely on grappling, you might want to consider a secondary profession.

Like basketweaving.

[Invader]

Don't have just one good trick?

You could always find a way to surround yourself with a very short-range AMF. That would do a decent job of suppressing FoM effects while grappling.

That said... FoM, as it is, is basically grappling's kryptonite. Not much to be done about it. If you've been relying solely on grappling, you might want to consider a secondary profession.

Like basketweaving.

AMF would gimp myself pretty severely so it's not really an option.

[eggynack]

Dispel then? I really don't think there's all that much in the way of getting around FoM. I'd go with the finding another trick, if you can.

[SowZ]

What's your build? Maybe we could suggest a feat or short dip to give another good trick.

[lunar2]

find a DM that's not going to consistently ruin your one good trick. it's fine if the occasional enemy isn't practical to be grappled, but if that's all you can do, then any good dm is going to put things for you to grapple about 90% of the time.

in other words, don't worry about it. worry more on countering anti grapple tactics that you can actually counter effectively, like getting really big, or having a high touch ac.

other than that, have a backup plan for the 10% of the time you can't grapple.

[Silva Stormrage]

As others have said FoM shuts down grappling hard. If you have someone in the party who can craft wonderous items maybe try to create a custom item, like "Gauntlets of Sure Grip" that let you suppress freedom of movement with a check (Maybe Grapple Vs CL + Ability Score check?).

Obviously if the DM just wants to shut down your trick there isn't much of a chance of him allowing such an item but if he just wants to challenge you he might approve something like it.

[karkus]

Gloves of Dispel Magic are handy in almost any situation!

[StreamOfTheSky]

Your best bet is probably stuff on the interwebs. I know I've homebrewed ways for a martial to negate freedom of movement for grappling, I'm sure many others have, too. Just not WotC...


AMF would gimp myself pretty severely so it's not really an option.

Complete Mage has a lower level option, Otiluke's Suppressing Field. 4th level spell and shuts down a specific school, subschool, or descriptor (like "good" or "fire") of spells as chosen by the caster within its area, iirc. So just block all Abjurations within its area and you're set. Except, the suppressing field is also an abjuration...owww...my head hurts.

[Spuddles]

Sunder items of FoM & have a spell storing gauntlet with (greater) dispel magic in it?

[eggynack]

Complete Mage has a lower level option, Otiluke's Suppressing Field. 4th level spell and shuts down a specific school, subschool, or descriptor (like "good" or "fire") of spells as chosen by the caster within its area, iirc. So just block all Abjurations within its area and you're set. Except, the suppressing field is also an abjuration...owww...my head hurts.
It doesn't shut down spells of that school, so much as it acts sort of like SR for spells of that school, given that it has your opponents make caster level checks against the field. Assuming that you'd be using an item for this, and further assuming that the item is made at the minimum caster level, we're talking about an approximately 50/50 chance of this working. It's better than nothing, but it's not the best. Still, this might be the best use I've seen for this spell, so that's a thing of some kind.

[AntiTrust]

I don't tend to have grapplers in my games, but when I do I usually just make FoM a static bonus against grapples. It's high, like +20 iirc, but it at least give a fighter a chance vs a spellcaster.

[eggynack]

I don't tend to have grapplers in my games, but when I do I usually just make FoM a static bonus against grapples. It's high, like +20 iirc, but it at least give a fighter a chance vs a spellcaster.
Alternatively, the grappler character could just become a spellcaster. Druids are probably the best grapplers in the game, removing just about every issue the combat mechanic has in one fell swoop: trading actions one for one, having no tricks when your main one is turned off by freedom of movement, being on the wrong end of the fact that monsters are naturally pretty large, having to stand right next to your opponent and leave yourself vulnerable to his allies, and probably some others that I'm not thinking of right now. It's pretty sweet.

[Curmudgeon]

How do you counter freedom of movement. I'm playing a grappler and I'm not sure how long my DM is going to let me grapple things to death before he starts ruining my one good trick.
At higher levels, your DM should start having some enemies with Freedom of Movement. Your best bet is to simply move on to other targets when you come across one you can't grapple. And, as has been suggested, have other tricks up your sleeves. Trying to counter specific defenses is a) hard, and b) less rewarding than having more offensive techniques.

[Studoku]

Get another party member to dispel it or do something other than grapple.

You're right that it'll probably come up eventually. It's reasonable for intelligent enemies that hear about or scry the party to find ways to counter your tactics.

[Khedrac]

You should not expect a single tactic to work every time - as people have posted Dispel MAgic is probably your best bet.

One thing to be sure the DM remembers though, the Travel Domain's Granted Power does not work against most grapplers...

[Kennisiou]

Dispelling, as mentioned, can work. Also, I believe if you can cause helplessness through some means freedom of movement doesn't apply but that's kinda a moot point since if you can cause helplessness somehow you don't really need to be grappling. You can also always use a magic item that disables enemy magic items to disable any magic item that provides your opponent with freedom of movement. But if you're dealing with it as an extraordinary class or race feature (like on high level scouts or mundane rangers or some monster that I am just not thinking of examples for off the top of my head right now but it exists somewhere just take my word on it).

Generally, you either have more than one good trick or you accept that there will be combats where you don't get the chance to shine and you'll have to resort to just saying "I attack" and "I move" as applicable each turn. If you don't like that then your options are either just play a more versatile build or play a maneuver-based character because of how maneuvers refresh (especially on crusader) and how stances work you should basically never not have access to your tricks.

[Gavinfoxx]

This grapple-focused handbook thread has a specific section on how grapplers can counter freedom of movement:

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/2109491

It is, in fact, a FANTASTIC handbook for the grappler!

[Kennisiou]

This grapple-focused handbook thread has a specific section on how grapplers can counter freedom of movement:

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/2109491

It is, in fact, a FANTASTIC handbook for the grappler!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the dispelling strike not counter free movement as an always-on extraordinary class feature like on Scout and Mundane Ranger since it's not a magical effect for them to get rid of.

[Gavinfoxx]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the dispelling strike not counter free movement as an always-on extraordinary class feature like on Scout and Mundane Ranger since it's not a magical effect for them to get rid of.

What are you talking about?

From lists of stuff:

Freedom of Movement
Bloodhound 8, ecl 12, Complete Adventurer
Jaunter 4, ecl 8, Expedition to the Demonweb Pits
Mythic Exemplar 10 (Orsos), ecl 14, Complete Champion, see text
Swiftblade 8, ecl 14, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

[Karnith]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the dispelling strike not counter free movement as an always-on extraordinary class feature like on Scout and Mundane Ranger since it's not a magical effect for them to get rid of.

What are you talking about?
Scouts get a constant, Extraordinary Freedom of Movement effect at 18th level, against which a Dispelling Strike would have no effect. I'm not sure what the Mundane Ranger is, but the variant Ranger without spellcasting, presented in Complete Warrior, gets Freedom of Movement as a 1/day SLA, which would be taken out by a Suel Arcanamach's Dispelling Strike.

[Invader]

This grapple-focused handbook thread has a specific section on how grapplers can counter freedom of movement:

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/2109491

It is, in fact, a FANTASTIC handbook for the grappler!

There's nothing actually in that section though :smallconfused:

[Red Fel]

There's nothing actually in that section though :smallconfused:

If you scroll down to it (instead of clicking the link in the first post) it lists Suel Arcanamach's Dispelling Strike as your source of overcoming FoM, as well as a build to get it as early as possible.

[Invader]

If you scroll down to it (instead of clicking the link in the fire ost) it lists Suel Arcanamach ' Dispelling Strike as your source of overcoming FoM, as well as a build to get it as early as possible.

I was just looking at section 9 which says combating Freedom of movement but it's empty. Suel Arcanamach obviously won't work because I already have a character.

[Psyren]

Tetori Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori) can defeat FoM as early as 9th-level.

[Red Fel]

I was just looking at section 9 which says combating Freedom of movement but it's empty. Suel Arcanamach obviously won't work because I already have a character.

Suel Arcanamach is the section on combating Freedom of Movement. And that's the point. Apart from Dispelling Strike, or some other dispel/suppression mechanic, or a houserule that FoM merely gives a substantial bonus as opposed to immunity vs. grapples, a grappler loses to Freedom of Movement. Period, full-stop.

If you want to be effective when grappling, pick up one of those mechanics. Otherwise, get used to being unable to grapple enemies with FoM.

If your DM occasionally throws an FoM-boosted enemy at you, find something else to grapple or some other way to contribute.

If your DM constantly throws FoM-boosted enemies at you, he's probably being a jerk. Or he's trying to send you a message about diversifying your investment portfolio. By being a jerk.

Outcome is the same either way. Learn a new trick, whether it's dispelling/suppression or another combat maneuver.

Diversify yo' bonds, son!

I feel a little dirty for saying that...

[Invader]

Suel Arcanamach is the section on combating Freedom of Move if ]

Ahh he has them labeled incorrectly.

I'm not changing my build, that kind of defeats the purpose of playing my current build in the first place :smallamused:

The DM hasn't done anything yet I was just wondering if there was a way to get around FoM if it came up.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Tetori Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori) can defeat FoM as early as 9th-level.

But using PF means grapple itself is taking multiple, massive nerfs.
Not being able to replace attacks (and AoOs) with grapples. Having to spend an extra feat and wait for BAB +6 to get the full +4 bonus. Grapple not keeping the enemy from attacking other people nor limiting him to light weapons (does still deny 2H). Needing to spend an action (as in, a standard, or move if you have all the feats) just to MAINTAIN it each round. With a roll of 1 auto-failing. Not doing damage automatically with each grapple success but instead needing to make a grapple attempt specifically to do damage only. Pinning doesn't let you silence people; and they can go from pinned to ungrappled w/ one success while you still need 2 to get them to pinned.

Silver lining: You're not restricted to one size larger for grapple targets, and the concentration DC to cast while grappled becomes stupidly hard. But you want to be big and strong to grapple and casters have plenty of tricks to get out w/o concentration checks *anyway*, so yeah...NOT WORTH IT.

*insert Admiral Ackbar poster here*

[Psyren]

Your spoiler has multiple errors/misconceptions Stream:

- Tetoris gain the Grab ability with their unarmed strikes, so they can actually grapple just by attacking/AoO.

- Tetoris get Greater Grapple at 6 for free - no need to wait for 6 BAB, because Monks ignore the prereqs for their bonus feats.

- Foes do threaten surrounding squares while being grappled in PF, but they take a penalty and can't move, so their chances of attacking anyone else are slim.

- Choosing to Pin a foe is part of the check to maintain the grapple; that's one success, not two.

- Similarly, damaging your opponent is also part of the check to maintain the grapple, it does not require a separate check. Greater Grapple gives you a second check, letting you damage them twice, and Tetoris also gain Constrict, for 3 free hits.

- You can still shut off verbal components in a Pin, you just need the Chokehold feat.

[Spuddles]

- You can still shut off verbal components in a Pin, you just need the Chokehold feat.

That's so ridiculous. Chokeholds are some of the easiest maneuvers to apply.

[Psyren]

That's so ridiculous. Chokeholds are some of the easiest maneuvers to apply.

Eh, it's not like you need it - the concentration check DC is stupidly high, plus spells with somatic components autofail - and besides, Tetori get that feat for free too.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I was talking about PF grapple rules in general. In any case...

Your spoiler has multiple errors/misconceptions Stream:

- Tetoris gain the Grab ability with their unarmed strikes, so they can actually grapple just by attacking/AoO.

- Tetoris get Greater Grapple at 6 for free - no need to wait for 6 BAB, because Monks ignore the prereqs for their bonus feats.

- Foes do threaten surrounding squares while being grappled in PF, but they take a penalty and can't move, so their chances of attacking anyone else are slim.

- Choosing to Pin a foe is part of the check to maintain the grapple; that's one success, not two.

- Similarly, damaging your opponent is also part of the check to maintain the grapple, it does not require a separate check. Greater Grapple gives you a second check, letting you damage them twice, and Tetoris also gain Constrict, for 3 free hits.

- You can still shut off verbal components in a Pin, you just need the Chokehold feat.

- Fair enough. They can. They still can't pin by using two iterative attacks like in 3E and still have some remaining. As far as I know, in PF grab is only to establish the hold, you can't use an attack with Grab on an already grappled foe to pin them.

- It's still level 6. You used to be able to get it at level 1.

- The penalty is not that big of a deal. Going from a 0% chance of attacking other people to a whatever% chance *is* a big change, though.

- You need to win a grapple check to start a grapple. Then another success and action to pin. Conversely, the PF team has decreed that a pinned creature that succeeds on a single grapple/escape artist check becomes completely ungrappled. In 3E, winning a grapple check when pinned would return you to grappling.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Grapple
A creature grappling an opponent typically needs to make two combat maneuver checks to pin someone (one to grapple, the next to pin). If you're pinned, do you also need to succeed at two checks to escape, one for the grab and the other for the pin?

No.

When a creature is pinned, it gains this more severe version of the grappled condition, and the two conditions do not stack (as described in the pinned condition). While this means that you do not take both the penalties for both the grapple and the pin, this also means that pinned supersedes the grapple condition; it does not compound it. For this reason you only need to succeed one combat maneuver or Escape Artist check to escape either a grapple or a pin.

- You don't seem to understand... In 3E, merely STARTING a grapple also causes damage. In PF, you only deal damage when you use the grapple check specifically to do damage...and nothing else. So in PF, you won't be inflicting damage as much when you grapple, even aside from getting less grapple attempts per turn due to grapple checks not replacing iterative attacks anymore.

- Ok, excuse me. "In PF, in order to prevent speaking, you need to pay yet another feat tax while as in 3E even a grappler with no feats or training at all can do it right from level 1." Is that better?

And casting isn't the only reason you might want to prevent speaking. Maybe you're trying to subdue a guard before he has a chance to scream out for help. Maybe the foe has a voice-activated Su ability or magic item.

[Psyren]

I was talking about PF grapple rules in general.

I know you were, but I was suggesting Tetori for a reason. Grapple can't beat FoM without it (or externally negating the spell in some way) in either system.

As for your responses:

1) Greater Grapple does let you pin in the same round you establish the hold (with a +5 bonus) simply by using your move action. So standard to attack + grab, then move to pin. Tetori isn't the only class that can do this, but they are well-suited to it since, again, they are one of the few ways to negate FoM.

2) You said 6 BAB, so I was assuming the level 6 requirement wasn't a problem.

3) Yes, your grapplee(?) can attack other people now - so just don't have the party lollygag around whoever you're grappling. It's not like they'll get a flanking bonus if you're in their square anyway. It was kind of silly that in 3.5 you could, say, grapple a t-rex and it had no chance of swinging it's tail and hitting a bystander or something anyway.

4) It's true that your opponent only needs 1 check to break free now - but remember that in 3.5, breaking free only took an attack action, so you could break a pin and a grapple in one turn starting at 6 BAB anyway. In PF it takes a standard action, so the end result is ultimately the same - they spend their turn breaking free, and you're free to grab them again. In the Tetori's case, he can grab them if they try to move away unless they only 5-foot step.

5) The only real point you have is Chokehold; but PF gives you more feats anyway. You could use the tie-up action to gag them instead.

And concerning the "less grapple checks per turn" and "no damage while trying to start a grapple," Tetori solves both of those with Grab. They get as many grapple attempts as they do attacks, and each one does damage.